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Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by radica, Oct 16, 2013.
How is Hyper Cutter an Aegislash counter?
Attack can't be lowered from King's Shield.
Still, I have to say that Intimidate is superior to Hyper Cutter in almost every way. That -1 Atk can save you a lot of trouble against hard hitting physical attackers.
It is still a gamble as you need to time your mega evolution. Without Huge Power Mawile cannot hit hard enough and after mega-evolving it is suspectible to King's Shield again. You might Swords Dance at this rate.
Hyper Cutter might be more viable in Doubles, where it is more powerful because Intimidate is more common. Unfortunately, Intimidate is more powerful in Doubles, too.
Ah, thanks. I'm so used to Intimidate being the only common attack lowering move, and I only really use King's shield in-game, where the effect is nice, but not crucial. Hyper cutter does have some use though, more against opposing Intimidaters really.
This is really strange to me. Why not just run enough speed to outspeed uninvested Aegislash (lets you outspeed Jellicent too), and use Sucker Punch to bypass King's Shield?
Yeah, Hyper Cutter really isn't going to be helping much since anything with Intimidate could always just try to switch back in after you lose the ability. It's not even possible to benefit from Hyper Cutter's immunity to King's Shield unless you choose not to Mega evolve, which is completely pointless to try.
Except that -1 Atk they give you from switching in could be the difference between you OHKO them (and others) and 2HKO them. Number crunching time!
But isn't Hyper Cutter negated when you mega evolve because you get Huge Power?
Hyper Cutter prevents dropping, so it would still be at +0 after Mega Evolving
If you mean that you no longer have it, and thus it no longer protects you, yes, but the same can be said of intimidate. The benefits of each can be summarized as follows:
Intimidate: Gives extra 'bulk' and may force your opponent to switch, which gives you set up opportunities.
Hyper Cutter: Protects from Intimidate users switching in.
There usage depends on how much support Mawile has. If you support it with (say) SP, SD and BP Scolipede, than Hyper Cutter is the preferred ability. If you want it to stand on its own, Intimidate is the preferred ability.
Would Power Up Punch be a viable option over swords dance? I know its not an instant +2 but your still getting in a little damage and boosting yourself at the same time. It'd be good for alot of potential Pokemon that may switch in expecting some other move.
Power up Punch is too weak. 40 base power, particularly without STAB, is too weak to do any major damage, and not worth the extra long term power. Fighting type coverage also doesn't add much either. The only advantage PuP has over Swords Dance is that it bypasses Taunt, which isn't exactly common, and the mons that do use it are generally known for doing so.
Fighting Type coverage doesn't add much?
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 294-348 (91.02 - 107.73%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Then again, Power up Punch is still a terrible move that should never be used. Too weak to do anything, and the boost is useless compared to that of Swords Dance.
Yeah almost forgot the lack of stab and such. Guess I'll play the prediction game and roll with Swords Dance :p It'd probably be easy to pull off with all of those resistances anyways. I really wish Focus Punch was available though. Putting that in with Substitute would be all sorts of fun.
So in that Smogcast, they slammed SD Mawile, favouring Sub +3. Why? :o
It's actually hard to pull off a Sword's Dance in practice, I find myself more often using my attacks as soon as possible to remove an imminent threat to my team. Either with Fake Out support or just pure brute strength.
I guess that's her role, she's like an assassin that needs to dispose that certain imminent threat in order for your team to have a breathing room OR to be your late game sweeper. her best team mates would be bulky Special Attack sweepers and good "offtanks"
Enough to OHKO, I'd assume. Let's say it's a 252 HP/252 Atk/4 SpDef Adamant Mawile vs. a 252 SpAtk/252 Spd/4 HP Timid/Modest Charizard. Both have perfect IVs.
Mega Charizard Y has 298 HP and 192 Defense. Mega Mawile, after Huge Power, has 678 Attack. Without Swords Dance, Sucker Punch does 203 to 239 damage, a guaranteed 2HKO. With Swords Dance, Sucker Punch does 404 or 405 to 476 damage, a guaranteed OHKO. I say 404 to 405 because my math puts it at 405 but damage calculators put it at 404. Oh well, still painful. Stealth Rock would mean Mawile doesn't even need Swords Dance.
You should always Mega Evolve the moment you bring Mawile in, so Hyper Cutter is 100% useless. Furthermore, Intimidate is almost a must in order to bring Mawile in before Mega Evolving as otherwise it has poor bulk.
EDIT: Forgot about Intimidate users, so i guess that Hyper Cutter has some limited utility for things such as Gyarados and Landorus-T, but Intimidate is way better in most cases.
Against a competent player, Hyper Cutter will only be useful in lead vs. lead scenario.
If they dont see the intimidate proccing on your switch-in they will just assume its Hyper Cutter, and they wont bring their intimidate user in order to counter you.
Giving this info away *might* help you if they dont have any other means to counter MMawile, though... But they will KNOW that they are in a bad spot 1 turn before the disavantage actually happens, which should allow them to prepare.
I still like Intimidate better.
Really, everyone's fixating on hyper cutter vs intimidate? There's not a better conversation to be had about a pokemon with so much going for it?
Instead, can I get people's opinions on pain split?
Personally, I feel pain split is a better option on the swords dance set then coverage. In fact, I would even go as far as to suggest it as mandatory on almost any M Mawile set. Why?
Mawile lacks passive recovery. No access to leftovers means you have a MAXIMUM of 4 substitutes without it. If recover was an option, I'm sure everyone would carry it also. Even without substitute having base 50 hp means pain split will do its job in all situations where it's necessary.
You don't need more attacking moves. Sucker Punch and Play rough together have almost perfect coverage, as only Klefki and Mawile resist them.
It's better then substitute. Mawile is too slow to effectively use substitute. All common W-O-Wers are naturally faster then it. This includes but is not limited to trenevant, gourgeist, Jellicent, and Rotom. Paralyzation doesn't bother it. Outside of a azumarill belly drum aqua jet, not a single priority move can kill M-Mawile in one go, meaning that sucker punch WILL go first and kill anything that tries to stop it. I'd like to suggest a set like this over the conventional SD set. I've been using it on showdown.
Ability: Intimidate -> Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Sdef
- Swords Dance
- Rough Play
- Sucker Punch
- Pain Split
Just some food for thought.
I do agree with this post, especially on the point it doesn't need more attacking moves.
Moreover, Mawile is bulky enough to use Pain Split effectively, and can use it to recover the damage taken from switching in, especially before it's mega-evo (which is not as bulky).
However, with Pain Split, isn't is interesting to transfer some/all HP EVs to Def or/and Sdef ?
Mix defenses : 252 Sdef/4 Def would give you 287 (+intimidate)/289 defenses
Physicall wall : 252 Def/4 Sdef would give you 349 (+intimidate)/227 defenses
This with 241 HP, making Pain Split very effective.
The "physical wall" solution seems very interesting, giving you an easy time setting up.
It should be noted, as I'm sure has been mentioned in this thread before, that Sucker Punching when Aegislash uses King's Shield will result in the attack drop on Showdown. I doubt it's supposed to work that way, however.
That being said, I've been running 4 attack Mawile (Play Rough, Iron Head, Sucker Punch, and Ice Punch), and it has been an absolute hammer. For me, Mawile has been most effective when paired with a Gliscor. Because Gliscor is neutral to Dragon moves, most offensive dragons rely on the sheer power of Outrage to push through him. Gliscor can easily tank the Outrage and switch or U-turn (I keep going back and forth between U-turn and Defog on Gliscor) providing an opportunity for Mawile to come in uncontested. From there, the ridiculous strength of Huge Power generally lets me make a massive dent on anything that isn't Forretress (or Ferrothorn I presume, but I have, surprisingly, yet to encounter one).
As an added bonus, Mawile and Gliscor cover each other weakness very well.
Beyond that, I've been running Scoliopede for the baton-passing synergy that has been previously noted. It's also worth mentioning that either Gliscor or Scoliopede along with Mawile probably warrants a fire resist or two within your team as it is a bit of a common weakness. I'm running Gyarados for more intimidate nonsense, as well as decent type/coverage synergy with Gliscor and Mawile.
The biggest thing I've noticed is that Mawile has completely changed the way the team operates. I began with Mawile and a dedicated "defensive core" (although it was really more bulky offense) as is standard, but Mawile reduced the team's reliance on this core by being able to threaten a kill almost every time it came in after one of my pokes dropped. That's poor wording, but I hope the concept makes sense. Almost every time my opponent KOs one of my pokes, Mawile can turn it into a near one-for-one situation by coming in for free and putting a huge dent in anything, even those who resist Fairy/Steel STAB. It's gotten to the point where I've disassembled the defensive core of my team, save for Gliscor and an offensive Latias, because it's hardly needed.
So overall, Mawile is awesome. Its fun to build a team around, and it creates a relatively unique dynamic that is a refreshing change from the last gen of OU to say the least.
Yeah, it doesn't work like that in-game at all. If you Sucker Punch a King's Shield, Sucker Punch will just fail.
This is actually a really good point. I'm trying out Pain Split/Swords Dance now to see how it works.
What types of spreads are people running for Mawile? I've just been maxing HP and Atk, but with Pain Split, I'm tempted to try something a bit more elegant. Are there any important speed benchmarks that Mawile would want to hit? Maybe some investment in Def or SpD is in order? I honestly have no clue.
Why do people keep talking about Pain Split? Isn't it unavailable until PokeBank goes live?