meat is murder

[iDunno]

i mean think about it for a second. how many of you looked at all the moral implications of your decision to eat meat first and then made a decision about eating meat? nobody does that, your parents just gave you meat to eat and you didnt think a thing about it. not until your teenage years, maybe, did you even entertain the notion that eating meat is unethical or anything like that.

so basically you're defending your viewpoint in a backwards sort of way... AFTER you've already accepted it and integrated it in your life. so naturally you'll be defensive without even realizing it, and just come up with bullshit rationalizations.

but then again

 

[Fishy]

so basically you're defending your viewpoint in a backwards sort of way... AFTER you've already accepted it and integrated it in your life. so naturally you'll be defensive without even realizing it, and just come up with bullshit rationalizations.

yeah but all the bullshit rationalizations and defensive maneuvers only exist because society advanced and started to actually give a shit about animals and their "rights" etc, so it's almost as if society shot itself in the foot when curiosity killed the desire to eat a cat, for some people (hahaha!!)

the fact that people feel the need to defend why they like to eat meat is inherently absurd anyway. can't we all just not give a fuck and eat how we want? sheesh

 

[moonbound]

and seriously why does everyone give so much of a shit about nutrients when it comes to MEAT but never when it comes to fucking vegetables and fruits? how many of you eat a well-balanced diet including broccoli, avocado, asparagus, spinach, peppers, onions, rasberries, blueberries, bannanas, all that shit? how many of you honestly do? barely any i bet, yet meat nutrients are soooo fucking important.

Hi, I'd like to inform you so you can stop making ridiculous assumptions. Just now for dinner I ate a 6 ounce steak with green beans, baked apples, strawberries, and a baked potato. I'm six foot tall, 135 pounds, which equates a BMI of 18.3. which is "underweight." I run 8 miles a day 6 days a week and haven't had fast food or soda more than once a month since I was eight years old. So, it would be great if you could get off your high horse and have a discussion without insulting everyone who disagrees with you.
Also I never said meat was necessary, I said that eating meat in moderation was the easiest way to get things like protein that you need to live.

 

[TheValkyries]

but then again

Whales have the largest brains known to science. I was unaware they also were the dominant species on the earth and had great propensity for using and developing tools.

Then again, they could be so smart that they've invented cloaking devices, and have long since hidden all their uber technology in their capital city, Atlantis.

 

[mattj]

but then again

I GUESS THAT MEANS VEGITURRIANS ARE MORE STUPIDER THAN MEAT EATURS HURRHURRHURR!

Whales have the largest brains known to science. I was unaware they also were the dominant species on the earth and had great propensity for using and developing tools.

Then again, they could be so smart that they've invented cloaking devices, and have long since hidden all their uber technology in their capital city, Atlantis.

Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home

So I had a lot of time to think this weekend while sitting up in a tree not seeing any poor, innocent, baby deer to murder. What would happen if everyone in Missouri stopped hunting deer?

Unfortunately/Fortunately, we eliminated 99.999% of large predators over a hundred years ago. The MDC has determined that while there are a scant few Mountain Lions roaming the state (I swear to glob I saw one, one dark night a few months ago and it scared the bejezus out of me), they determined that there is no reproducing population in the state. There's just a few of them that roam in and out of the state. They've also determined that there are absolutely no wild wolves anymore in the state. The only large "predators" we have anymore are a decent Coyote population and the occasional stray dog. Neither of those are predators, more in the line of scavengers.

Even though this weekend was crap weather for deer hunting (how DARE it not rain and snow and freeze?!) we usually kill 50,000 deer here in Missouri JUST IN THIS ONE WEEKEND ALONE. This happens every year and has happened for hundreds of years. For all intents and purposes, we are the top predator for deer, as well as myriad other species in Missouri.

What would happen if we stopped predating? What if a system, that for hundreds of years now has relied on 50,000 deer being eliminated, one weekend every fall, would suddenly find itself with an extra 50,000 (more realistically, many, many, many more than that, if you consider deer season lasts till basically January) deer? What would happen to the plants that the deer eat? What would happen to their habitat? What would happen to the deer themselves? Would there be more car/deer accidents? Would farmers complain of more deer eating their crops? Would we see more, and worse, disease in the deer population? Would we see a rise in large predators, and an accompanying rise in attacks on people by those predators?

Whether or not you realize it, or agree with it for whatever reasons, humans are predators. Maybe you aren't, but your neighbor is. We are a part of the ecosystem. I don't think it would be good for the ecosystem that, whether for better or worse, we're just an important part of now.

 

[Outlaw]

I GUESS THAT MEANS VEGITURRIANS ARE MORE STUPIDER THAN MEAT EATURS HURRHURRHURR!\

Judging by this topic, I'd believe it.

 

[ivar]

Hi, I'd like to inform you so you can stop making ridiculous assumptions. Just now for dinner I ate a 6 ounce steak with green beans, baked apples, strawberries, and a baked potato. I'm six foot tall, 135 pounds, which equates a BMI of 18.3. which is "underweight." I run 8 miles a day 6 days a week and haven't had fast food or soda more than once a month since I was eight years old. So, it would be great if you could get off your high horse and have a discussion without insulting everyone who disagrees with you.
Also I never said meat was necessary, I said that eating meat in moderation was the easiest way to get things like protein that you need to live.

i doubt most people have diets like you.

anyway, you never said eating meat in moderation is the easiest way to get protein to live... you said that my comparison of bullies and being atop the food chain was not a good one because bullies dont need to beat up kids or whatever to survive. i responded by arguing that we dont need to eat to meat to survive either, so my comparison stands and the 'food chain argument' is a terrible one. then you modify your position to something that has nothing to do with what you originally said in light of my damning critique. that's bullshit

@i dunno

ummm... so fucking what? historically eating meat on rare occasions was evolutionarily advantageous... if you took the time to read my post you would see that i acknowledged that. the reason why we made so many evolutionary advances by eating meat during our earlier evolutionary period was because the alternative diet was really low in caloric value, but we can easily compensate with current food and nutrition technology and knowledge. you can get well balanced amino acids from varieties of beans and you can get protein from protein powder...

i mean you put a link, think it's so awesome that you dont even need to explain the content of the linked article, and it turns out your point is flawed and your argumentative strategy is embarrassingly elementary. i dont even know what to think about that.

@fishy

did you not read the full contents of my post? i said i dont care about justifying my meat eating... i am not a vegetarian sheesh people. i just hate shitty arguments. and this thread is filled to the brim with them.

@mattj

yeah, i can appreciate your ecosystem argument to an extent. however, the meat industry frickin' tortures animals, forces them to breed and keeps them in seriously confined places so they can be cheaply murdered. i doubt the way the meat industry works matters at all for the natural equilibrium of the earth's ecosystem.

 

[Matthew]

Hi, I'd like to inform you so you can stop making ridiculous assumptions. Just now for dinner I ate a 6 ounce steak with green beans, baked apples, strawberries, and a baked potato. I'm six foot tall, 135 pounds, which equates a BMI of 18.3. which is "underweight." I run 8 miles a day 6 days a week and haven't had fast food or soda more than once a month since I was eight years old. So, it would be great if you could get off your high horse and have a discussion without insulting everyone who disagrees with you.
Also I never said meat was necessary, I said that eating meat in moderation was the easiest way to get things like protein that you need to live.

Lee pointed out earlier in this topic that certain vegetables or combos (beans & rice) have a higher protein output than meat.

 

[Fishy]

so who's going to organize the smogon all-you-can-eat buffet? everyone bring your favorite dish!!

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

Whats an all you can eat buffet

 

[Outlaw]

The greatest thing ever invented.

Where you can eat shrimp and pizza and chicken fingers all at once.

God bless Golden Corral.

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

I really like buffets, they were definitely invented by an adolescent dude in college who came up with the idea after making a meal entirely from the leftovers in his fridge.

"Well theres these 2 slices of pizza.... oh and some fried chicken.... oh here we go some chocolate mousse."

 

[Matthew]

I think Alison meant a pot-luck not an all you can eat buffet.

 

[Lee]

Lee pointed out earlier in this topic that certain vegetables or combos (beans & rice) have a higher protein output than meat.

not necessarily a higher output, but certainly a superior amino acid composition (and even then, only in the case of milk, egg, soy proteins and fungi). 100g of steak will typically yield about 30g of protein whereas the equivalent amount of beans and rice would scarcely yield a third of that (and to damn it further, beans are actually inferior to beef in terms of AA composition, I'm really not sure where you got beans and rice from Genny!)

still it's easy enough to be a vegetarian and rival the protein output of a meat-eater - a pint of milk has about 20g of more nutritionally dense protein and pumpkin seeds are pound for pound higher in protein than steak. You can also buy tubs of whey (no, it's not just for bodybuilders) for next to nothing provided you don't opt for the rip-off brands. I've actually found that I'm getting a lot more vitamins and minerals into my diet now that I don't eat meat because, while once I would just eat a steak to get my protein fix, I'm now consuming much more stuff like milk, eggs, nuts, seeds and fish - all of which are so much higher in vitamins and minerals than any meat. Two birds with one stone, if you will.

 

[iDunno]

@i dunno

ummm... so fucking what? historically eating meat on rare occasions was evolutionarily advantageous... if you took the time to read my post you would see that i acknowledged that. the reason why we made so many evolutionary advances by eating meat during our earlier evolutionary period was because the alternative diet was really low in caloric value, but we can easily compensate with current food and nutrition technology and knowledge. you can get well balanced amino acids from varieties of beans and you can get protein from protein powder...

Wow I just put up the link because you were saying that it was a learned social skill to eat meat as the norm. I was trying to point out that eating meat was necessary at one time and that we couldn't have evolved to the point that we have without it. I was in no way saying that we should all eat meat or become dumb. Plus protein isn't all that matters. Fat matters too and it is much harder to find vegetables that provide the same amount that meat does. To eat the amount of vegetables required to that effect is extremely expensive. If you live a sedentary lifestyle, though, being a vegetarian is easy.

i mean you put a link, think it's so awesome that you dont even need to explain the content of the linked article, and it turns out your point is flawed and your argumentative strategy is embarrassingly elementary. i dont even know what to think about that.

I'm sorry for thinking that the people here had reading skills that didn't require me to spoon feed information. Plus, how is your conduct not elementary. You're just deliberately demeaning people who have dissenting opinions left and right. How could you consider my argumentative style to be elementary when I only posted once about an interesting fact that pertains to the topic and another time about a topic that was completely different. Calm your ass. Seriously.

Also if you actually read the thread you would see I agree with you:

You do realize that our bodies aren't designed to consume the volume of meat that we do, right? If it weren't for mass production which is a very modern invention, we wouldn't be able to eat nearly as much meat than we do now. It would just be too scarce and expensive. Our bodies are designed to eat leafy greens and vegetables and, occasionally, fruits. Meat is a luxury.

Also there are a lot of statutes out there that encourage hunting for the purpose of population control. Just thought I would put that out there.

@mattj

yeah, i can appreciate your ecosystem argument to an extent. however, the meat industry frickin' tortures animals, forces them to breed and keeps them in seriously confined places so they can be cheaply murdered. i doubt the way the meat industry works matters at all for the natural equilibrium of the earth's ecosystem.

The meat industry basically tortures animals because they only see them as produts. They can't feel anything about them if it's their job to kill them every day. They would go insane. Someone has to do it given that the demand for meat is so high.

 

[Eraddd]

not necessarily a higher output, but certainly a superior amino acid composition (and even then, only in the case of milk, egg, soy proteins and fungi). 100g of steak will typically yield about 30g of protein whereas the equivalent amount of beans and rice would scarcely yield a third of that (and to damn it further, beans are actually inferior to beef in terms of AA composition, I'm really not sure where you got beans and rice from Genny!)

still it's easy enough to be a vegetarian and rival the protein output of a meat-eater - a pint of milk has about 20g of more nutritionally dense protein and pumpkin seeds are pound for pound higher in protein than steak. You can also buy tubs of whey (no, it's not just for bodybuilders) for next to nothing provided you don't opt for the rip-off brands. I've actually found that I'm getting a lot more vitamins and minerals into my diet now that I don't eat meat because, while once I would just eat a steak to get my protein fix, I'm now consuming much more stuff like milk, eggs, nuts, seeds and fish - all of which are so much higher in vitamins and minerals than any meat. Two birds with one stone, if you will.

Bingo. Any nutritionist worth their salt would advise cutting down on meat intake for other sources; the "not-getting-enough-protein" excuse is baseless, and with an increase in nutrients and lesser intake of fats and sodium, it's more likely you'll be avoiding health complications down the road like heart disease, high blood pressure etc.

I'm not saying it's impossible to be healthy while eating meat. It's just much easier doing it while adopting a vegetarian diet (of course, both require a wide-range of foods that have different nutrients).

 

[Myzozoa]

speaking of bingo:

 

[mattj]

Ahaha! Apache word for bad hunter! I have to use that some time!

 

[vonFiedler]

I don't know about the validity of that preachiness square Myzozoa. I never made a bingo board out of stupid shit vegetarians say.

I can think of some substitutes though.

"Humans are omnivores, insinuates something about vegetarians being anti-science"
"You want to improve the lives of livestock, but don't really grasp the concept of boycott by removing yourself from the market entirely"
"However well meaning you think you are, you are an impressionable individual who is being manipulated by kitschy bingo board shit so that you'll buy stuff from vegan stores"

I hear defensive carnists saying those things a lot.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

*something irrelevant about cavemen

oh yeah B-)

I have a serious question for vegans though, why do you not eat eggs? Chickens naturally lay unfertilized eggs almost every day. It doesn't really harm the chicken in any way, they are fine with it, and the egg was never alive in the first place so its not like you are killing anything. I am not trying to be offensive, it just seems odd perhaps I am missing out on some part of your argument, idk, I don't know a lot a vegans.

 

[Ride The Lightning]

 

[Myzozoa]

I don't know about the validity of that preachiness square Myzozoa. I never made a bingo board out of stupid shit vegetarians say.

Why you mad tho?

I can think of some substitutes though.

"Humans are omnivores, insinuates something about vegetarians being anti-science"

Except that look at me, I eat no meat. I'm human, but I'm not an omnivore. #doesn'tgoin4naturalisticfallacy=\=anti-science

"You want to improve the lives of livestock, but don't really grasp the concept of boycott by removing yourself from the market entirely"

I do my best, but removing yourself from the market entirely is pretty fucking difficult. In fact it's actually impossible unless you have vast quantities of money and time to research and purchase completely cruelty free products. Evil is knowing better and doing worse.

"However well meaning you think you are, you are an impressionable individual who is being manipulated by kitschy bingo board shit so that you'll buy stuff from vegan stores"

I've never bought anything from that store, my friend told me about the bingo board so I googled it. Why are you so angry lol.

 

[vonFiedler]

I'm just trying to make a better bingo board. Why do you need to project anger onto the discussion if I'm the one who is supposed to be defensive?

You are an omnivore. This is not a life choice, it is not naturalism. It is a scientific fact.

You clearly failed to grasp what I meant by not understanding how to boycott. You can't force meat companies to improve their policies when you wouldn't consume their products even if they comply. I can and do.

You very well may live on the other side of the planet of a single vegan store, but you dodge the fact that such cheeky rhetoric adds nothing constructive to the debate but only serves to brainwash impressionable people. So there's another hypocritical square on the board. "We aren't all like PETA, except for right now when we are doing the same kind of shit".

 

[capefeather]

Yeah I definitely think that that bingo board is taking things too far. There are some legitimate points on that square that, quite frankly, aren't even all that defensive. I don't know what it is with people and turning admirable accomplishments into springboards of criticism and judgment. Fighting stigma with negativity won't remove the stigma.

 

[mattj]

or it could just be a joke