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Medicham [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by jc104, Mar 13, 2012.

  1. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Medicham


    [​IMG]



    Controversial analysis I know, but from the few QC people I've spoken to, it seems that this is worth a shot. Anyway the skeleton is probably going to be aimed more at getting this approved rather than explaining how the set works and stuff. Obviously I know that Medicham is not the world's greatest pokemon, so I'm not going to sell it too much in the analysis if it gets approved. Medicham's many drawbacks will be made very clear.

    edit: Written. Sorry it's a bit of a monster.


    [Overview]

    <p>At first glance, one may simply dismiss Medicham, with its poor base stats and ridiculous appearance. But, it would seem, pink pantaloons are not merely a source of ridicule, but also the source of Pure Power. Taking its ability into account, Medicham has the highest Attack stat in the game, with the exception of Deoxys-A, letting it pack a mean punch. This is backed up by a workable base 80 Speed, which allows Medicham to outrun the unboosted metagame with a Choice Scarf, and pretty much all defensive Pokemon without. On top of this, Medicham has access to Hi Jump Kick, a stupidly powerful move; Medicham's Hi Jump Kick is the second most powerful non-suicidal move you're likely to see, trumped only by Darmanitan's Flare Blitz.</p>

    <p>The less that is said about Medicham's defenses though, the better. Medicham is not quite in Dugtrio or Sharpedo territoryit can take a Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch, but this is not exactly an achievement. Getting Medicham safely into battle may be a challenge. Another major concern for Medicham is competition from other Fighting-types such as Mienshao and Terrakion; both possess significantly better stats, excluding Attack. Notably, Medicham has access to Psychic STAB; though neither Zen Headbutt nor Psycho Cut has good Base Power, both are reliable and hit Pokemon such as Tentacruel hard. Without these moves, Medicham is extremely vulnerable to Ghosts and the move Protect, each of which will cause 50% recoil when using Hi Jump Kick. At least Medicham <em>has</em> a secondary STAB. More importantly, Medicham has access to Ice Punch, ThunderPunch and Trick, letting it take out Gliscor easily and cripple defensive Pokemon. Overall, this means that Medicham has very few if any safe switch-ins. Make sure not to underestimate the power of Hi Jump Kick.</p

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Hi Jump Kick
    move 2: Ice Punch
    move 3: Psycho Cut / Zen Headbutt
    move 4: Trick / ThunderPunch
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Pure Power
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Given Medicham's already outrageous power and average Speed, a Choice Scarf set seems entirely obvious, letting Medicham outrun the vast majority of Pokemon in the OU metagame. However, Medicham achieves more than your typical Choice Scarf user; it can not only play a revenge killing role, but also break through most walls, and even sweep late in the game under the right conditions. Largely, this is due to the sheer power of Hi Jump Kick; a 130 Base Power move coming from an effective base Attack stat of 169 is no laughing matter. For example, Adamant Medicham can 2HKO Skarmory and OHKO 112/0 Rotom-W. Hi Jump Kick is almost as powerful as a super effective Psycho Cut, so you'll want to be spamming it as soon as it is safe to do so. Unfortunately, Ghost-types and the move Protect will both cause Medicham to receive 50% recoil, so another STAB attack can often prove useful. In this regard, Psycho Cut and Zen Headbutt are great options; they might have low Base Power, but they provide a less risky move for revenge killing weakened threats, and hit Poison-types, such as Gengar and Tentacruel, super effectively. The choice between the two is a little tricky; Psycho Cut is generally preferred as this set uses its Psychic STAB to reliably kill weakened opponents. Zen Headbutt's chance to miss is not appreciated, leaving only Ice Punch as an accurate move, but it is significantly more powerful than a resisted Hi Jump Kick, and has a very handy flinch chance. </p>

    <p>Ice Punch is Medicham's main coverage move, as it deals super effective damage to a number of Pokemon that resist Hi Jump Kick; it OHKOes Dragonite, Landorus, and Latios after Stealth Rock damage, and easily 2HKOes Gliscor. Trick provides a very good option for the last slot, differentiating Medicham from other Fighting-types by allowing it to cripple the likes of Jellicent, Reuniclus, Mew, and Slowbro. Also, if the Choice Scarf is proving inconvenient (for example, if the opponent has a Ghost-type or is spamming Protect) it can be removed. ThunderPunch allows Medicham to 2HKO Jellicent and OHKO Gyarados, but will fall short of a 2HKO on Slowbro.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread for this set is very simple; Attack is maximized, as is Speed, since this is required to tie with +1 Dragonite of the same nature as Medicham. The choice of nature is much more difficult; as previously mentioned, Medicham can act as a wallbreaker and a sweeper as well as a revenge killer. For this, the extra power provided by Adamant is greatly appreciated, giving you a guaranteed OHKO on 4/0 Latios with Ice Punch after Stealth Rock, a 2HKO on Skarmory and Forretress, and a potential OHKO on Choice Band Scizor after Stealth Rock. However, with Jolly Medicham can outrun Jolteon, Adamant +1 Dragonite, Modest Choice Scarf Rotom-W, and Timid Choice Scarf Heatran and revenge kill any of them. So generally, Jolly is preferred if Medicham is intended to be more of a revenge killer rather than a sweeper. If running a Jolly nature, you can change the EV spread to 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe, giving Medicham a little more bulk while maintaining the ability to outrun Modest Choice Scarf Rotom-W. In terms of alternative moves, Baton Pass can be used over Trick to scout the opponent's switch-in and maintain momentum. This is very useful if trying to trap a Ghost-type with Pursuit.</p>

    <p>The main threat to Medicham is always going to be Ghost-types, as they prevent the free use of Hi Jump Kick merely by being present on the opposing team. You might be able to beat some of them with Medicham, but they are still best removed by Medicham's teammates. Pursuit trappers such as Tyranitar and Choice Band Scizor are therefore strongly recommended. The second most annoying thing for Medicham to face is Protect users, which strip 50% of Medicham's health if it uses Hi Jump Kick, and allows an appropriate switch to a resistant Pokemon otherwise. There is little you can do about this besides being wary of common Protect users, such as Jirachi, Blissey, Vaporeon, Gliscor, Politoed, and Tentacruel. Besides Pursuit trappers, you may want to pair Medicham with another Fighting-type, such as Mienshao or Terrakion to overwhelm the opponent's Fighting-resistant Pokemon. Notably, Mienshao can use U-turn to get Medicham in safely, and can 2HKO Jellicent with Grass Knot. Other than this, you'll want to support Medicham with Stealth Rock, as many of the Pokemon resistant to Hi Jump Kick will take 25% damage from it.</p>


    [SET]
    name: Non-Choice
    move 1: Hi Jump Kick
    move 2: Ice Punch
    move 3: Zen Headbutt / Psycho Cut
    move 4: Substitute / Drain Punch
    item: Life Orb / Black Belt
    ability: Pure Power
    nature: Jolly / Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe


    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Though it might be tempting to equip Medicham with a choice item, the power and flexibility provided by other items can be extremely useful. Instead of a revenge killer, Medicham becomes a potent wallbreaker and destroyer of defensive teams. Medicham also becomes much less vulnerable to Ghosts, Gliscor and Protect. In fact, if played correctly, Medicham can actually take advantage of Protect by using Substitute, which can ease prediction in addition to blocking status moves. However, the damage from Substitute, Life Orb and potentially Hi Jump Kick recoil will build up tremendously fast, so you might wish to consider another option. Drain Punch provides a reliable STAB move with a useful secondary effect, preventing Medicham from being worn down. This is an excellent move to use against opponents which spam Protect, and is good for finishing off weakened Pokemon. Black Belt is a viable alternative item, providing a boost to Hi Jump Kick comparable to that of Life Orb without causing recoil. This also lets Medicham convincingly bluff a choice item before surprising the opponent. Ice Punch is a required move, giving a good chance to OHKO 252/184+ Gliscor, as well as guaranteed OHKOs on 4/0 Salamence, Latios and Landorus, as well as Dragonite after Stealth Rock damage. Zen Headbutt or Psycho Cut gives Medicham a reliable STAB attack that also hits Tentacruel, Gengar, Fighting-types, and Jellicent harder than the other moves. Psycho Cut is noticeably weaker and doesn't cause flinches, but also doesn’t miss. Still, a miss is not the end of the world when behind the safety of a Substitute, so Zen Headbutt may be the better option in that case.</p>

    <p>Overall, this set is extremely potent, but it does have a tendency to fall flat on its face occasionally. It's not the most consistent Pokemon ever. Medicham will often prove useful against more defensive players, especially those that underestimate its power. Offensive teams, on the other hand, can present trouble; nonetheless, Medicham should be able to attain a KO every time it gets in safely. Another issue worth bearing in mind is that an intelligent opponent can often wear Medicham down with smart switches, especially if they have a Ghost. Therefore, Medicham requires much more prediction than your typical Substitute user especially if running Life Orb. You should also think carefully as to whether the much weaker Mienshao might make a better choice thanks to better Speed and Regenerator, which gives it much better longevity. Still, rest assured that almost nothing can match Medicham's sheer power.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Choosing the EV spread is not difficult; Attack and Speed are maximized so that Medicham can hit as hard and fast as possible. Medicham's defenses are rather poor anyway, and as such are best ignored. A Jolly nature allows Medicham to outrun Adamant Dragonite, Mamoswine, and Lucario as well as Modest Rotom-W and Timid Heatran; in each case a Jolly nature is the difference between life and death. Jolly will give Medicham considerably more utility against offensive teams, against which it otherwise might struggle due to its weak defenses. However, the power drop will prove significant at times, especially against offensive Dragonite, which will never be OHKOed through Multiscale. If you choose to use an item other than Life Orb, an Adamant nature also becomes more favorable. </p>

    <p>A number of moves can be used instead of Substitute or Drain Punch. ThunderPunch is useful for hitting OHKOing Gyarados and Starmie, and 2HKOing Slowbro if running Adamant and Life Orb. Recover allows Medicham to take advantage of a free turn, for example from a switch or an opposing Protect, making Medicham much more durable. Bulk Up could also help take advantage of free turns, but Medicham will probably be easily revenge killed with super effective or special moves. A priority move such as Fake Out or Bullet Punch is also possible, but remember that Psycho Cut is illegal with Bullet Punch. You can also replace your Psychic STAB if you want, but Jellicent and Tentacruel may prove very problematic if you also lack ThunderPunch. If they are not present on the opposing team, running both Substitute and Drain Punch can be very effective, as the HP lost to Life Orb and Substitute can be recovered. As for the item choice, other options include Wide Lens, Expert Belt, and Leftovers, but all leave Medicham's Hi Jump Kick too weak. If not using Substitute, Life Orb will usually prove the best option. </p>

    <p>This set has some trouble with Ghosts, though admittedly not nearly as much as the Choice Scarf set. Medicham can muscle its way past most of them, but they still prevent it from freely using Hi Jump Kick. Unfortunately, Tyranitar is a poor partner since sandstorm just tips the residual damage problem over the edge, but other Pursuit users such as Choice Band Scizor and specially defensive Metagross can help trap Ghost- and Psychic-types. Stallbreaker Mew and Sableye can prove problematic for this set, so a reliable switch-in such as Heatran or Volcarona makes a good partner. Finally, Specially Defensive Jirachi is an excellent partner for Medicham, as it is able to spread paralysis with Thunder Wave, Body Slam and Thunder, while checking Gengar and Reuniclus. Wish and U-turn can make switching Medicham in rather easier, and can even heal a weakened Medicham if you can get it in safely. This does a lot for Medicham's issues with average Speed, rapid HP depletion, and inability to switch in safely.</p>


    [Other Options]

    <p>As far as alternative sets go, the most obvious is Choice Band. This is a lot less flexible than the non-choice set, leaving the opponent able to sacrifice something before forcing Medicham back out; the extra attack is often just overkill. Still, the set would be Hi Jump Kick, Ice Punch, and two of Drain Punch, ThunderPunch and Bullet Punch. A number of other moves could occasionally prove useful: Double Edge hits Psychic-types harder than any of Medicham's other moves, but this is a bad move to be locked into, and the recoil is not appreciated when running Life Orb. Fire Punch allows Medicham to OHKO Scizor and Forretress (assuming Sturdy is broken), but these Pokemon are already taking a ton from Hi Jump Kick. Rock Slide is useful against Volcarona and Flying-types, but a Psychic-type move or Ice Punch is more effective in general. Foresight allows Medicham to hit Ghosts with Hi Jump Kick, but you can KO most in the required two turns anyway. Pain Split can be used on a set with Life Orb an Substitute to provide longevity and damage opponents, but Medicham's coverage is sacrificed. Acupressure or Bulk Up can be used to set up on opponents that spam Protect, but Medicham's average Speed leaves it too vulnerable to revenge killing.</p>


    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Directly countering Medicham can prove extremely difficult, due to its phenomenal power and decent coverage. However, there are still a couple of ways to deal with Medicham effectively. First and foremost, we have Ghost-types; the mere presence of a Ghost will hamper Medicham significantly, preventing it from using Hi Jump Kick freely. However, most Ghosts are not themselves perfect counters; Gengar is OHKOed by a Psychic-type move or a Life Orb Ice Punch, Jellicent falls to ThunderPunch or a Life Orb Zen Headbutt, and many other defensive ghosts, such as Sableye, Dusclops, and Cofagrigus, absolutely hate Trick. Psychic-types cannot hinder Medicham purely by existing, but are often great switch-ins. Slowbro, Stallbreaker Mew, and Calm Mind Reuniclus can usually counter Medicham if they avoid Trick. Gyarados can also wall any variant lacking ThunderPunch. Moreover, several Pokemon are not 2HKOed by Choice Scarf Hi Jump Kick, including Dragonite, bulky Volcarona, Gliscor, Celebi, and Intimidate Salamence. Finally the move Protect is also an effective check to Medicham, as it punishes Medicham for using Hi Jump Kick. This is very effective against the Choice set, but less so against other sets as they can take advantage of the free turn, for example with Substitute.</p>



    Adamant Scarf Medicham calcs against a bunch of random stuff just to give an idea of its power. Note that most of these are either walls or resist HJK. A lot of other stuff is just cleanly OHKOed :


    Calcs (open)
    Hi Jump Kick vs…

    252/252+ Reuniclus: 29 - 34.19% (this takes the least from Medicham's moves in OU)
    252/0 Reuniclus: 42.45 - 50%
    252/176+ Forretress: 47.45 - 56.49%
    4/0 Latios 56.62 - 66.55%
    252/252+ Skarmory 48.5 - 57.48%
    252/0 Jirachi: 70.54 - 83.16%
    252/0 Espeon: 63.77 - 75.14%
    4/0 Volcarona: 64.63 - 76.2%
    4/0 Starmie 61.83 - 73.28%
    4/0 Tornadus 63.54 - 74.91%
    112/0 Rotom-W: 99.62 - 117.47%
    252/0 Gastrodon: 91.54 - 107.74%
    248/0 Scizor: 82.79 - 97.95%
    252/252+ Vaporeon: 60.34 - 71.12%
    0/0 Gyarados: 52.26 - 61.63% (34.44 - 40.78% after intimidate)
    252/252 Gyarados: 29.94 - 35.53% (20.05 - 23.6% after intimidate)
    4/0 Tyranitar: 306.43 - 361.4% (lol)

    Ice Punch vs...

    252/184+ Gliscor: 80.22 - 94.91%
    0/0 Dragonite (no multiscale): 141.17 - 167.18%
    0/0 Salamence (intimidate): 106.34 - 125.67%
    0/4 Landorus: 149.21 - 176.8%
    252/0 Celebi: 54.45 - 64.35%
    4/0 Latios: 87.41 - 103.31%
    4/0 Gengar: 62.97 - 74.42%

    Zen Headbutt vs...

    248/216+ Jellicent: 40.44 - 47.89% (possible 2HKO on slightly frailer variants, or with hazards)
    252/240+ Tentacruel: 92.3 - 108.79%



    Proposed other set. Unless someone makes a very persuasive argument I'm not going to add it.

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Hi Jump Kick
    move 2: Ice Punch
    move 3: Drain Punch / Bullet Punch
    move 4: ThunderPunch / Bullet Punch
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
  2. Danilo

    Danilo im a danilo!!!
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    Medicham is the nuts. 2HKOs the tier with HJK and takes down Gliscor with Ice Punch. It can't really switch in to anything, but it's an excellent end game cleaner, and good revenge killer.
  3. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Yea, saw you talking about this in IRC. Not much to add, since that's really the only viable set. You could maybe add CB to the AC because of how much power it adds, though.
  4. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    CB is in AC already. And at the moment I'm thinking that non-choice sets (probably with LO) may well outclass the CB set. The sub set mentioned in OO (or Recover + LO as Snunch suggested) could actually be rather good.
  5. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    Thanks for posting this after all, jc. tbh, I'm so glad this Pokemon never sees the light of day in OU, because it's scary when it wants to be.

    If I were to approve this immediately, Choice Scarf would be an obvious must, and at the moment, everything looks good on it. As for non-choiced sets, you can go add one for a quick reference. Despite being slower than most other offensive Pokemon, base 80 Speed is still base 80 Speed (I'm the guy using Timid Togekiss after all); it's not slow, and it's fast enough to outspeed a few things before taking them out.

    If you'd like, please note that an unboosted Medicham's Hi Jump Kick (without items) is approximately 2% weaker than Life Orb Mienshao's, which isn't that much of a difference. This also helps Medicham's case significantly, considering Mienshao needs the Life Orb boost to 2HKO walls like Skarmory. Medicham just 2HKOes it with whatever she pleases.
  6. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Thanks AG. I probably will add in a non-choice set, but I'm going to test it first and do some calculations so that I can decide exactly what the set should be. Since it's rather late now I'll probably have to do that tomorrow.
  7. Chillarmy

    Chillarmy

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    CTRL + F "Regenerator"... =(

    Be sure to highlight Medicham's advantages over Mienshao: Pure Power and Psychic typing. Mienshao doesn't really gaf about taking recoil thanks to Regenerator and beats Jellicent with Grass Knot; meanwhile, Medicham is QQing somewhere in a corner because it won't be able to get the 50% taken from a missed HJK back. Tanking Terrakion's unboosted CC is cool, especially considering that Medicham can still thrash on most of OU. Also, mention Baton Pass on the Scarf set. A dry Baton Pass is really good for trapping ghosts and keeping momentum in general.
  8. Doughboy

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    The advantage I see the CB set having over the Life Orb set is having the ability to Trick. Trick is a very powerful tool on something that forces switches as much as CB Medicham. It basically puts your opponent in a 50/50 game on who wants to be crippled.

    I think for a CB set to have any advantage compared to the LO, there has to be a OHKO that LO could never get. Is a OHKO through Multiscale possible with Medicham. Adamant Medicham does tie with Dnite... A possible 2HKO on Gliscor with Zen Headbutt might be possible (I don't have access to calcs).

    As pointed out before a Sub+3 attacks set should defitnily be taken inti heavy consideration. From the looks of it Medicham 2HKO's most of its target's. If there was a sub set could Wide Lens be taken into consideration? 99% accurate Zen Headbutt and HJK makes sure yoy don't waste and take away your ability to make subs (assuming sub was made HJK miss happened; 25%+50%=75%=no sub with some ev spreads)

    GL my favorite Pokemon!
  9. Trinitrotoluene

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    Chillarmy, Medicham's Dream World ability is Telepathy, not Regenerator. Also, a question. How does this Medicham deal with Sableye? Besides Ice Punch, I can't see this Medicham doing much to it, seeing that it's immune to its two STABs.

    Some calcs:
    252 Atk Adamant Medicham Ice Punch vs 252 HP / 124 Def Careful Sableye: 39.14% - 46.38%
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    Meanwhile, Sableye can burn, and Recover stall in its face. Due to that info, Sableye deserves a special mention in the Ghosts area in the counters section.
  10. muramusaw8

    muramusaw8

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    User Wario is OSSIM, I believe user Chillarmy mentioned Regenerator because it is one benefit Mienshao has over Medicham. In any case, user jc104 will probably elaborate on the comparative advantages of using other Fighting Pokemon after this analysis passes QC.
  11. Pocket

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    Yea, Medicham deserves an OU analysis ;) Pure Power & HJK coupled with versatile offense, usable Speed, and a rather useful Psychic typing all helps to make Medicham stand on its own two feet in OU.

    Ughh, Scarf Medicham should be Jolly to accomplish the basic Scarf Revenge-killer's job in checking DDNite. However going Jolly means it misses out on the 2HKO on Skarmory and a near-guaranteed OHKO on Starmie (with ThunderPunch), Latios (with Ice Punch after Rocks), and Tornadus (without Rocks). However, not going Jolly means it will risk a speed-tie loss against DDNite and lose against DD Gyarados, Jolteon, ScarfToed and Scarf Rotom-W.

    I guess this is a pick-your-weakness sort of situation, but I have to suggest going with Jolly, seeing how it expands Medicham's revenge-killing capabilities. This is probably a good reason to split Medicham's Choice set into Choice Scarf and Choice Band. Medicham performs more as a powerful revenge killer as a Scarfer, while it becomes a nigh unstoppable Wallbreaker with a Choice Band. Some move choices will be subtly different between the two choice sets, too, imo. Trick, for instance, would be low priority on a CB set than on a Scarf set. CB set may be more willing to invest a second slot for a "safer" Fighting STAB move, like Drain Punch or Brick Break than a Scarf set, since it can afford to lose some power and versatility for consistency.

    For the Scarf set, I suggest:
    • Jolly Nature with an EV spread of 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe. This allows Medicham to be faster than +1 Modest Rotom-W. Any additional Speed EVs would be meaningless, so mine as well give it some little bulk.
    • Slash ThunderPunch with Trick, since this allows Medicham to check Gyarados and Starmie, both potent Rain threats. I would probably make it the primary slash, since the role of a Scarfer is to check many significant threats, with crippling a Wall being more of an afterthought.
    • AC mention that ThunderPunch can go over Psycho Cut instead to have both ThunderPunch and Trick, but Psycho Cut still comes in handy as an alternative STAB offense / checking Gengar.
    • AC mention Chillarmy's Baton Pass suggestion, since it is useful when Medicham is not quite ready to nuke the opponent's team.
    • AC mention Adamant Nature and max Atk / max Spe and highlight some of the key 2HKOs / OHKOs it gains by the nature boost.
    • CB Set - Jolly Nature, max Atk & Spe. HJK and Ice Punch are staples. Drain Punch / Brick Break deserves a third move-slot with the more useful Psychic STAB / ThunderPunch on the fourth slot. With a CB, even Slowbro and Sableye faces a 2HKO.
    • CB Set - AC mention Baton Pass, Trick, and the less useful Psychic STAB.
    • Checks & Counters - as Wario is OSSIM has said, make sure to give a special mention to Sableye, which unlike other common Ghosts, hard walls Medicham.

    Feel free to oppose the proposed changes if you feel strongly against any of them. I just feel that it makes more sense as a Scarfer to check as many threats as possible, with a potential end-game sweeping being more of a secondary goal. If you feel that the latter is more important for Medicham, then you may be able to convince me to make Jolly AC material and Adamant the main spread.
  12. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Good points everyone.

    @ Chillarmy: I'm definitely going to mention what Medicham has over Mienshao. Psychic STAB is really not that relevant; it's really just the power, and Trick that makes the difference. Baton Pass looks like a decent idea too, though I must say that after you gone to the trouble to get medicham in, it may prove a little bit of a waste.

    @ThePillsburyDoughBoy: the CB set has little need for trick given that it 2HKOes pretty much everything, and since this is true for, say, LO as well, CB is merely restricting your options. And yes, OHKO through Multiscale is possible with Life Orb and guaranteed with CB on offensive Dragonite. And you may also get a 2HKO on Gliscor with Zen Headbutt, but only if it hasn't activated its Toxic Orb yet.

    Wide Lens is normally a dreadful item, but this is one of very few instances in which it might be OK. I'll add it to OO. Also if decide to make it a full set it will be arranged so that you don't die after two subs and HJK recoil.

    @Wario is OSSIM: Definitely adding Sableye to checks and counters. Can't believe I forgot him. Hates Trick though unless it also has Trick itself.

    And finally:

    I'm really pleased with the generally positive attitude towards Medicham. Thanks.

    For me, Adamant vs Jolly is a really difficult decision. As you said, you really need Adamant to go straight through those walls. I definitely like being able to 2HKO everything; as I said, it's not just a scarfer but a wallbreaker and a sweeper as well. This is one of Medicham's main selling points. If you want to revenge kill stuff mainly, Scarf Terrakion might be the better choice. Still, those things you outrun with Jolly are really important, and as such Jolly will always be worth a slash at least. That spread you mentioned would definitely be the main option if I were to go with Jolly.

    I'm definitely not sold on ThunderPunch. People on irc were generally not that impressed by it, for a start. Trick definitely would be the thing to slash it with, though. The Psychic move, as you said, would be the next best thing to give up.

    CB set: again, I'm not sold. I found it difficult to get one attack off with CB Medicham, and even then it was often just overkill. The opponent might just sacrifice something and force Medicham back out again. I think a non-choice attacker with substitute is probably a much better option. Punishes the opponent for sacrificing and also lets you punish those protect spammers. If I were to add CB, I might want to put Bullet Punch in there somewhere. Medicham is that powerful that it really will do a significant amount of damage.

    So, after having been pretty sure about what's best for medicham, I'm now not really sure at all. Everyone keep making suggestions. It's very much appreciated.

    edit: first match with LO medicham (yes, it's on PO for some reason):

    Destruction (open)


    Battle between jc104 and SooMighty22 started!

    Tier: Wifi OU
    Mode: Singles
    Variation: +19, -13
    Rule: Rated
    Rule: Sleep Clause
    Rule: Species Clause
    Rule: Wifi Battle

    Your team: Tyranitar / Medicham / Rotom-W / Heatran / Celebi / Scizor
    Opponent's team: Latios / Lucario / Gliscor / Forretress / Politoed / Gastrodon

    jc104 sent out Medicham!
    SooMighty22 sent out Lucario!

    Start of turn 1
    SooMighty22 called Lucario back!
    SooMighty22 sent out Gliscor!

    Medicham used Hi Jump Kick!
    It's not very effective...
    SooMighty22's Gliscor lost 33% of its health!
    Medicham is hurt by its Life Orb!

    SooMighty22's Gliscor's Toxic Orb activated!
    SooMighty22's Gliscor was badly poisoned!

    Start of turn 2
    SooMighty22's Gliscor used Protect!
    SooMighty22's Gliscor protected itself!

    Medicham used Ice Punch!
    SooMighty22's Gliscor protected itself!

    SooMighty22's Gliscor restored HP using its Poison Heal!

    Start of turn 3
    SooMighty22 called Gliscor back!
    SooMighty22 sent out Forretress!

    Medicham used Substitute!
    Medicham made a substitute!

    Start of turn 4
    Medicham used Hi Jump Kick!
    SooMighty22's Forretress lost 60% of its health!
    Medicham is hurt by its Life Orb!

    SooMighty22's Forretress used Stealth Rock!
    Pointed stones float in the air around jc104's team!

    SooMighty22's Forretress restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    Start of turn 5
    SooMighty22 called Forretress back!
    SooMighty22 sent out Gliscor!

    Medicham used Hi Jump Kick!
    It's not very effective...
    SooMighty22's Gliscor lost 39% of its health!
    Medicham is hurt by its Life Orb!

    SooMighty22's Gliscor restored HP using its Poison Heal!

    Start of turn 6
    SooMighty22's Gliscor used Protect!
    SooMighty22's Gliscor protected itself!

    Medicham used Ice Punch!
    SooMighty22's Gliscor protected itself!

    SooMighty22's Gliscor restored HP using its Poison Heal!

    Start of turn 7
    SooMighty22 called Gliscor back!
    SooMighty22 sent out Politoed!

    SooMighty22's Politoed's Drizzle made it rain!
    Medicham used Hi Jump Kick!
    SooMighty22's Politoed lost 100% of its health!
    SooMighty22's Politoed fainted!
    Medicham is hurt by its Life Orb!

    Rain continues to fall!
    SooMighty22 sent out Gliscor!

    Start of turn 8
    SooMighty22's Gliscor used Protect!
    SooMighty22's Gliscor protected itself!

    Medicham used Ice Punch!
    SooMighty22's Gliscor protected itself!

    Rain continues to fall!
    SooMighty22's Gliscor restored HP using its Poison Heal!

    Start of turn 9
    Medicham used Ice Punch!
    It's super effective!
    SooMighty22's Gliscor lost 76% of its health!
    SooMighty22's Gliscor fainted!
    Medicham is hurt by its Life Orb!

    Rain continues to fall!
    SooMighty22 sent out Gastrodon!

    Start of turn 10
    Medicham used Hi Jump Kick!
    SooMighty22's Gastrodon lost 100% of its health!
    SooMighty22's Gastrodon fainted!
    Medicham is hurt by its Life Orb!

    Rain continues to fall!
    SooMighty22 sent out Forretress!

    Start of turn 11
    Medicham used Hi Jump Kick!
    The attack of Medicham missed!
    Medicham kept going and crashed!
    Medicham lost 41 HP! (15% of its health)
    Medicham fainted!

    SooMighty22's Forretress used Gyro Ball!
    But there was no target...

    Rain continues to fall!
    SooMighty22's Forretress restored a little HP using its Leftovers!


    Looking good. I was unlucky not to get 4-5 KOs there. No kidding.
  13. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Yea, okay - with Medicham I could see why Adamant would be desirable on the Scarf set. Thanks for implementing the changes you find reasonable, jc104.

    And that log was sick, haha! I strongly believe that Medicham should have a non-choiced set on-site, too, since they are not only effective but also hard for people to come up with on their own.

    You may scrap the CB set if your playing experience shows that it has nothing special to offer than the non-choiced set.
  14. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    I guess since I put up the set in creative movesets, and it's getting mentioned in here, I'll post here.

    Medicham (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pure Power
    EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Psycho Cut / Zen Headbutt
    - Ice Punch
    - Substitute

    Basically just a set that's now in the OP, but from my experience with using this set, you don't ever need the Speed tie with Dragonite, especially with Rocks up. The teensiest extra bulk it provides is endlessly useful, I can't tell you how many times I've survived hits with just slivers of HP left to get off the last HJK.

    Also, yes, someone is going to say "Jolly" but the whole point of the set is to set up a Substitute on a safe turn, and hit whatever comes in as hard as possible, which doesn't really require as much speed, and the power dropoff from the set is enormous. The Crux of the set isn't the fact that it's an free switch attacker, it's that it's abusing opportunities to set up Sub and then unleash the hardest hits in the OU Metagame. Adamant also lets it tear through stall like butter. Under a sub, Skarmory is one of the only members stall teams carry that can even deal with it- and all it can do is come into it ONCE and Phaze it out.

    IMO Recover shouldn't even be mentioned- the reward off Sub is just so much higher. I also prefer Psycho Cut for no BS Misses and its crit chance, obviously Zen Headbutt is usually the better option, but it at least should be slashed. The set is extremely powerful though, and the ability to switch moves- especially get KOs behind a sub, is probably the most useful thing Medicham can do. How hard it can rock stall under a sub is comparable to CM Reuniclus. It's less effective against HO teams and the like, but if Medicham is even capable of forcing out one thing, it's likely going to get a KO. IMO it certainly is something that should get on the analysis.
  15. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Thanks for posting Ultimario. I'm pretty much convinced by the set in principle, so expect to see a proper skeleton for it shortly.

    I've slashed Psycho Cut, though I maintain that Zen Headbutt is the better choice for this set. Those flinches and the extra power are very helpful, and a miss is less likely to get Medicham KOed than it is for any other set. Recover is something suggested by Snunch, and in my experience he tends to know what he's talking about. With recover you can be a more persistant threat, healing up when the opponent inevitably spams protect. Still, I haven't tested it yet.

    As for the jolly vs adamant thing. I think Jolly gives Medicham really good utility against more offensive teams, letting you outrun adamant Dragonite, Lucario, Mamoswine, and Gyarados, all Heatran and Modest Rotom-W. In most cases, outrunning these pokemon is the difference between life and death. I also don't believe it takes away Medicham's ability to break stall. It still 2HKOes pretty much everything but a few Psychic-types (Reuniclus, Deoxys-D, Slowbro and dumb stuff like Cresselia) that probably wall you anyway. You can see from the calcs in the OP that Adamant Scarf Medicham has the power to break through the majority of walls. I think you can afford a 9% reduction in power.

    edit: yeah I was thinking of CM Reuniclus. That's definitely its flagship set.
  16. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    Actually, TR Reuniclus dies either way, Jolly or Adamant. You do lose a 2HKO chance on Fast Spiker Deo-D, though.

    Been testing out Jolly Cham though. As soon as I switch, I keep on coming across less offensive/Bulkier teams rather than offensive ones =p. Still looking out for those things, though.
  17. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    You think Drain Punch could find its way on the Substitute set? It would certainly be useful for off-setting the HP drained from LO and Substitute. I am pretty sure Medicham can heal a lot thanks to Pure Power. Possibly over the Psychic STAB?
  18. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I don't know, you kind of need the Psychic STAB whenever the opponent has a ghost or is spamming protect (remembering that they can very well use it twice in a row). You need it to OHKO Gengar and Tentacruel and 2HKO Jellicent. All three of these become a pit of a pain otherwise. If you're really worried about the recoil I would suggest using a different item, such as wide lens, black belt, or expert belt, or using recover instead of sub.
  19. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    Honestly dying really fast from LO and Sub is less of an issue than it seems. If you're really distressed about the damage- run Wish support. This set desperately needs Rocks anyways, so I've been running Wish/Rocks Jirachi to keep my health up and provide the rocks Cham needs. It's worked wonders. I agree it's not worth dropping Psychic STAB for.

    I've still yet to try out Recover- but I don't see a reason why yet. I've had tons of Latis (among other Dragons) come in on me- just to get KO'd by Ice Punch under a sub. With Recover, I'd be forced to predict what move is being used, switch, and not snatch the KO that turn.
  20. godbaka

    godbaka

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    I really think scarf is the best since medichamp needs dat speed
  21. deluge

    deluge

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    I'm not sure if the Psychic STAB is essential on the non-choice set. Fighting + Ice gets great coverage and HJK is so ridiculously powerful. In the little log that was posted, Psycho Cut was not used at all.

    Have you thought outside of using Psychic STAB?
    -Bulk Up or Acupressure are boosting moves Medicham could use while opponents spam Protect in fear of HJK. Acupressure is unreliable but the fear of letting Medicham accrue multiple +2s could make the opponent think twice about protecting. If Medicham is behind a sub and faster there's relatively little risk to boosting if you suspect a Protect is imminent.
    -Foresight will make ghosts (esp. the slower Jellicent) vulnerable to HJK. A neutral HJK will hit Jellicent harder than a SE Thunder Punch.
    -Drain Punch, Pain Split and Recover all provide some kind of healing and make Medicham a bit more resilient.
    -Thunder Punch hits Jellicent, Slowbro, and Gyarados harder than Psycho Cut.

    I'm not in the trenches testing this out but it seems like there may be better options than a relatively weak Psychic STAB move that doesn't give much additional coverage.
    Sure, you hit fighting types (and Gengar who's HJK immune) SE with Psycho Cut but a neutral HJK does 92% of the damage. And as was said, a NVE HJK is almost as strong as a neutral Psycho Cut.
    I think those taking the lead on this should be more open to other moves in Psycho Cut's slot (on the non-choice set). It could be the best move in the end but so far it just seems to be on the set because it's STAB.

    EDIT: or Zen Headbutt. It's more powerful so a bit less pointless but the same argument applies.
  22. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    ^ Bulk Up, Accupressure, Pain Split, Foresight are all OO material. Brick Break and Double-Edge are also OO worthy.

    Nice, another set!
    Add: especially without LO.
    Just say Substitute
    This set does not suffer as much from Ghost-types than the choiced set. The only Ghost-type that still annoys Medicham is Sableye, who can potentially Recover-stall Medicham with some low damage rolls, not to mention burn Medicham once it breaks Substitute. I would suggest a teammate that can switch into Stallbreaker Mew and Sableye, most notably Heatran and Volcarona. Conkeldurr and Heracross are also decent choices thanks to Guts, though they must be wary of Psychic. Toxic Spikes is a great hazards for Sub Medicham to prevent Sableye from quick-stalling.

    Back to Scarf Set:
    Drop this to OO for now until you, somebody else, or I find a distinct niche for CB Medicham - You cannot suggest replacing Choice Scarf on a Scarf set!
    ---------------------

    Checks and Counters:

    Add Stallbreaker Mew as a counter :)
  23. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Guess I shouldn't do skeletons at two in the morning lol.

    Ghosts are still a huge pain, believe me. They don't even need to come in; their mere presence prevents you using HJK freely, sub or no sub. In this case, one round of HJK recoil is usually enough to render Medicham pretty much useless, too.

    Adding Mew to Checks and Counters. May also add Cofagrigus just because it was that annoying when I faced one (damn Mummy).

    And I'm going to add a bunch of stuff to OO. Bulk Up may get an AC mention over sub though.
  24. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Brick Break and Double Edge deserves an OO mention, imo. Brick Break is useful against Dual Screen Offense while Double Edge is the most powerful move to dent Reuniclus or Mew.

    For the non-choiced set, there are more suitable Pursuiters than TTar. There is always specially defensive Metagross or CB Scizor for instance.
  25. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Added those things.

    I'm generally more concerned with finding the best sets rather than worrying about finer details of the skeleton, which I put together rather hastily.

    So I tried LO + Recover out and can say that I barely used Recover at all. Inferior to Sub in my opinion, or even an extra attack. As for other items, Black Belt worked decently so I'm leaving that in as a slash. Lefties is also decent, so that may be worth slashing too.

    edit: Drain Punch over Sub is actually rather good, so I think I might slash that in. I'm still undecided in general about what is best for non-choice medicham so a firm decision from QC would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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