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Medicham (Sub Wallbreaker)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Iggeh, Jun 3, 2009.

  1. Iggeh

    Iggeh

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    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/medicham

    I'm having a hard time building a team around this thing, but as an individual it seems to work pretty well. Help with Team Options would be appreciated.

    [SET]
    name: Wallbreaker
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Focus Punch
    move 3: Psycho Cut / Hi Jump Kick
    move 4: Thunderpunch / Ice Punch
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>A wallbreaker that works in OU and UU. Force a switch with this guy, set up a Substitute, and get ready to introduce your opponent to a world of hurt. To give you a taste of how powerful Focus Punch is, a 252 HP / 176 Def Impish Skarmoy foolish enough to switch in will take 76.35% - 89.82%, a 15.38% chance of an OHKO with Stealth Rock up. If it Brave Birds, you can easily finish it off. If it Whirlwinds, you have a chance to kill it while still keeping your Substitute. Swampert and Bulky Suicune are both KO'd by Focus Punch followed by Psycho Cut or Thunderpunch, respectively, the former only having around a 20% chance of surviving Focus Punch with SR factored in. Even after factoring Intimidate, all but the bulkiest Gyarados or Salamence are OHKO'd by an elemental punch; with SR up even 252 HP / 252 Def variants are downed in one hit.</p>

    <p>In UU, there are only a select few Pokemon who can safely switch-in on Medicham, while Medicham itself has many more opportunities to switch-in. The only Pokemon that are guaranteed a safe switch-in are bulky, non dual-type Psychic-types. Everything else will either get OHKO'd by Focus Punch, take a Focus Punch and then get KO'd by one of Medicham's other moves, or will have to hope that Medicham's set does not cover their type. Slowbro is an exception, taking only 49% - 58% from Thunderpunch. While this is a 96% chance of a 2HKO without SR, it can stall out Medicham with Slack Off granted it doesn't get hit on the switch-in. A bigger concern for Medicham in UU is coming in on Pokemon that won't allow Medicham to get a Substitute up, which is where your STAB moves come into play. Be wary, though, as most of the walls that take SE damage from your STAB moves do not get OHKO'd, which can spell disaster if your opponent decides to keep it in. Only the standard UU Registeel is OHKO'd by Hi Jump Kick. A 252 HP / 0 Def neutral natured Regirock takes 84.62% - 100.55% (only a 2.56% chance of an OHKO), while a 252 HP / 120 Def +nature Steelix takes 72.88% - 86.44% from Hi Jump Kick. Psycho Cut manages 89% - 105% on 252 HP / 160 Def +nature Nidoqueen and 76% - 90% on 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Weezing. 80 HP / 252 Def Impish Hariyama takes 87% - 103% from Psycho Cut.</p>

    <p>For use in the OU metagame, the elemental punches are the preferred choice of moves for the last two moveslots. However, Psycho Cut and Thunderpunch can also work, providing perfect type coverage against everything besides Claydol. The main reason to use Psycho Cut have a 91% chance of 2HKOing 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Rotom-A with SR up, who otherwise walls this set. Psycho Cut also OHKO's Gengar, which Thunderpunch and Ice Punch fail to do, as well as allowing Medicham to pose a threat to Pokemon that aren't weak to Thunderpunch or Ice Punch. Without Ice Punch, however, this set will have trouble with Celebi. In the UU environment, you can either choose to run Thunderpunch and Brick Break or Psycho Cut and Ice Punch. Thunderpunch and Hi Jump Kick hits Slowbro and allows you to punish Steel-types who try to stay in on Medicham, while Psycho Cut and Ice Punch beats Poison-types, Flying-types, and Claydols who try to wall Medicham.</p>

    <p>The main problem with this set is that Medicham is an incredibly difficult Pokemon to even switch in, much less set up a Substitute. The combination of no immunities, frail defenses, and the loss of health between Substitute and Life Orb will keep Medicham benched almost indefinitely without good team support. Although you can try to switch in Medicham and bluff Choice Scarf, this tactic is very risky, a problem that is compounded by the fact that Medicham the thought of a Scarf might not even cross the opponent's mind. U-turn and Baton Pass are your best bets for bringing in Medicham, allowing it to come in unharmed. In OU, Special attackers like Jolteon and Azelf are the best Pokemon to utilize this strategy, as they usually draw in Special walls (Blissey, Tyranitar, Latias) that are scared away by Medicham. In UU, both physical and special attacking lures work, as both types of walls are threatened by Medicham. Swellow is an excellent partner if you're running Hi Jump Kick, drawing in Rock or Steel-types almost exclusively, while U-turning to Medicham. If you're running Psycho Cut, Primeape can U-turn out of Poison-types into Medicham. Just note that you may want to keep Medicham benched till those walls have been weakend to the point where they can be OHKO'd. On the Special side, Espeon with Baton Pass works decently, though instead of a Chansey or Registeel switching in you may wind up having to deal with Honchkrow.</p>
  2. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    Medicham's main problem in any metagame.

    In UU? No one runs this Rotom.

    I can see this set having major problems just setting itself up, and ultimately, is it any better than the Choice Bander?
  3. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    It would probably get a fair amount of chances to set up Substitute due to all of the Pokemon it forces out (Chansey, Registeel, Regirock, Steelix, Etc). It looks like a good set to me.

    Compared to the CBer, Substitute + Focus Punch gives it that "always does the most damage to the target thats in" instead of relying on prediction, not to mention Focus Punch having a huge increase in power from Brick Break or HJK.
  4. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    I've tested this. It's extremely unreliable at best, and is really not much better than other things. Furthermore, once the secret's out, you now have to tangle with Medicham basically being dead weight on your team without a dedicated non-Focus Punch Fighting attack and its mediocre base 80 speed.

    I'm going to say that this set (which was posted in the NCMS thread) is nigh useless for a team, and as SubPunchers go, it's got a lot against it.
  5. Iggeh

    Iggeh

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    Ah, that's supposed to be Rotom-A.

    The main advantage this set has over the Choice Bander is that its effectiveness doesn't rely on how telepathic you are in predicting your opponent's switches. The other advantage over the Choice Bander is that your opponent is forced to attack Medicham, rather than having a free turn to do whatever they please because three out of four of the Choice Bander's moves have immunities.
  6. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    Choice Band Medicham Hi Jump Kick is pretty neat. It can 2HKO everything this set specifically mentions (none of which are even Medicham counters!), like Skarmory (2HKO), Suicune (2HKO), and Swampert (2HKO). Hell, Gyarados and Salamence take a shitload from it as well, you really don't have to predict all that much.

    If you want, you can use Focus Punch on the CB set and OHKO Skarmory, plus since Focus Punch is only usable once you'll have a different Fighting STAB to use next time, in case they stay in and attack you.

    Basically, the main benefit of this set is prediction related security, if your opponent has a bulky Fighting resist weak to Medicham's other attacks or a Ghost. In this case, you'll net a KO, if they don't know you're running the set and you can OHKO the switch in, but those switch ins aren't easy to OHKO unless they are Ghosts, otherwise HJK would still do a decent chunk to them, like 30-40%.

    So, is it worth it? I seriously doubt it.
  7. crobatchop

    crobatchop

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    I am pretty scared of HJK's accuracy, but otherwise a fine option. I have never use this guy (gal?) before.
  8. twash

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    Could you provide us with some logs to show us this works please? (10-15). Don't pick the best ones, just pick the ones where Medicham is used. It will be obvious if you do cherrypick them.
  9. MetaNite

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    Oh, well then when I say 'regular' I meant without Substitute because that just drains your health and kills your type coverage. Focus Punch is powerful enough to OHKO a Metagross, Scizor, and come close to KOing Salamence. Hits not difficult to use because Medicham causes a lot of switches.

    The main advantage though is being a able to switch attacks, where normally a Gyarados could freely switch into a Choice Scarf Hi Jump Kick, now it has to worry about ThunderPunch.
  10. JabbaTheGriffin

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    I used a regular subpunch Medicham in uu (without life orb) and found it to be extremely awesome. I ran Sub/FP/Psycho Cut/Ice Punch.

    I almost always landed at least one kill per match simply due to the surprise factor. I'd say Psycho Cut is necessary because after the surprise is gone you still want a pretty good STAB move to fall back on if your opponent isn't going to let you set up a sub. Ice Punch is neat because it 2hkos claydol and puts a pretty big dent in shaymin. Tpunch is probably pretty useful for Slowbro too, but I wouldn't know.

    So a subpunch set definitely belongs in the analysis. I don't know about the whole life orb thing I'd have to try it out, but lefties definitely worked fine.
  11. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I'm not against having this set in the analysis, but if the only reason that it's effective is with surprise factor, I've been told that it would belong in OO.

    My issue is that once they figure out that you are SubPunch, what's your Medicham going to do? It can't set up a Substitute on Registeel and co. anymore. Psycho Cut doesnt help vs them.

    I do like this set, but I think it need's to be more reliable then it is at the moment, and less reliant on surprise. Possibly even something like Brick Break / Night Slash in the two coverage move slots, or even use Fire Punch over Psycho Cut to threaten Registeel and co, which are the only things Medicham should be getting a sub on.
  12. JabbaTheGriffin

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    It's not only effective because of the surprise factor, but that's what lets it net that first kill most of the time. After that, 480 attack and psycho cut lets it put pretty big dents in a lot of shit. And there are times when people are still forced to switch even if they know you have sub and that'll usually net you another kill. And Registeel and Steelix are really the only Pokemon that fall into your "registeel and co." Most other Pokemon take a large enough hit from Psycho Cut to be scared out just from that.

    If you drop Psycho Cut that really puts you into the "what do you do after you lose the surprise factor" category. I definitely wouldn't recommend that at all.
  13. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Actually, the only Pokemon you threaten (as in, force out) with Psycho Cut are:

    Blaziken (LO variants)
    Chansey
    Hariyama
    Muk (being generous)
    Nidoqueen
    Poliwrath
    Weezing
    Venusaur (non Specs / Scarf)

    And ones you threaten with Ice Punch (and not Psycho Cut):

    Altaria
    Torterra
    Claydol

    That really isn't a lot of Pokemon to set up on.

    My issue is, that if you're opponent doesn't carry one of these Pokemon, Medicham becomes dead weight. I think there needs to be better two-move coverage for this set to work, because though Medicham has an awesome attack stat, it really isn't the fastest or bulkiest, so it needs to make up for this with type coverage.

    Fire Punch was just a suggestion off the top of my head, and I'm not exactly sure what Medicham's best two-move coverage is, but if it has to be Focus Punch / Psycho Cut (maybe Rock Slide or ThunderPunch) / Substitute / Brick Break (or even Drain Punch), then I think that's the best option.
  14. JabbaTheGriffin

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    it's not about sporting super effective coverage lol it's about threatening a stab attack off of 480 attack. if you pack fire punch/night slash you only threaten those pokemon that you hit for super effective rather than also threatening pokemon that are sitting around 50-60%
  15. cim

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    Heysup, are you seriously arguing that a 70 power STAB move from 480 attack only hurts what it hits super-effective? Shit, half of those Pokémon would die to an Ice Punch or two.
  16. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    What? I suggested Psycho Cut / Brick Break as coverage moves along with SubPunch for that reason, Fire Punch isn't good at all, and I already said that in my post.

    The point is that Medicham can't set up a Substitute / force out many Pokemon with just Psycho Cut and Ice Punch, while Brick Break OHKOes a whole new portion of Pokemon. Hitting super effective is irrelevant, my point is that it has to OHKO something or not take much damage from it back. Medicham is ridiculously frail, so even a weak attack from something like Regirock will make Medicham shit its pants.


    As I said before, it's not about super effective damage, it's about forcing Pokemon out so that Medicham can get a sub up and actually do something instead of being a half assed sweeper with an unboosted 70 power (not impressive, really) STAB attack and Ice Punch, and being walled by the most common walls such as Regirock, Registeel, and Steelix.

    And at the bolded part, if I missed any Pokemon that Medicham threatens / forces out with Psycho Cut / Ice Punch, could you list them?

    To be clear: I'm not suggesting you remove Psycho Cut, i'm suggesting you add Brick Break as Fighting is a much better attacking type then Psychic, but most importantly it threatens more Pokemon then Ice Punch does. So this moveset: Substitute / Focus Punch / Brick Break / Psycho Cut. I've tested it a little bit, if I can find something to set up a Sub on, I can get a KO, usually. Slowbro still walls Medicham to hell and back.
  17. jrrrrrrr

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    Ok first off: Iggeh, you need <p> and </p> tags at the beginnings and ends of paragraphs. A link to the analysis wouldn't hurt much, either.

    Sub
    Focus Punch
    Brick Break/Ice Punch
    ThunderPunch/Psycho Cut

    is what I would use, personally. Ice Punch and Rock Slide really aren't as necessary as your STAB moves. BB+Tpunch beats Slowbro and lol Drifblim, IPunch+PCut beats Poison and Flying types, as well as Claydol.

    ThunderPunch is basically mandatory, imo, since as heysup said Slowbro shits all over this set. Sub+FPunch are obvious, and STAB move is really team dependant. Registeel really isn't a threat to most teams so I wouldn't care about that...I'd be more concerned with Poison-types. Altaria goes down to SR+Psycho Cuts if youre behind a sub anyways.

    @whatever heysup is arguing about this time: Ice Punch + Psycho Cut beats Poison-types, Flying-types and Claydol...aka Medicham's counters.
  18. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    "This time", my concern isn't whether it can hit it's counters super effectively on the switch, my concern is whether or not Medicham can actually get a Substitute up. Saying "Ice Punch hits these types, and Psycho Cut hits these Types" is completely missing the point. The point is: What can Medicham force out with Ice Punch and Psycho Cut in order to get a Substitute up and KO something? If the only answers are the Pokemon I listed, then that's why I suggest a change to something more reliable.

    What you (Jrrrr) listed works perfectly, it isn't "too" cluttered, and has reliability vs surprise factor in its Slashes. I'm seconding the set looking like:
  19. Aerouille

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    I would seriously recommend Drain Punch in place of Brick Break, unless you are extremely concerned about screeners. the healing from drain punch allows you to force a lot of tanks out since they aren't going to be eager to take that damage and can't outdamage the healing from it by enough of a margin to warrant staying in. Some walls may try to take a drain punch and status you but that's where sub can play to your advantage.

    Also let's consider the fact that Brick Break is only 15 BP more than drain punch, you're only sacrificing 20% of your move's strength to get that heal.

    I use a wallbreaking set that doesn't employ sub/punch but I would still never reccomend another move over drain punch for fighting STAB, particularily hi jump kick (which is a total crap move)

    ^_^
  20. Seven Deadly Sins

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    Medicham is too frail for Drain Punch, and given that 60/75/75 defenses blow, it's kill or be killed. Drain Punch doesn't get much killing done, which is why you should never use it.
  21. franky

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    My 2 cents, fixed a couple of things.

  22. JabbaTheGriffin

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    Tpunch isn't mandatory lol. So what if one pokemon walls you without a move? Slowbro isn't the scariest thing to be walled by. I'd rather run night slash over tpunch anyway so i can cover all psychics and missy on top of that. I get the feeling people are just trying to theorymon this set which is kind of disgusting. Try the set with and without Psycho Cut and tell me what you think. It's not even close. Psycho Cut alone forces a shitload of pokemon out. If you're running elemental punches instead then you're really to the point where you're only forcing out pokemon you hit super effective, which isn't really what medicham wants to do imo.

    Doubling up on fighting is a reasonable option I guess, so maybe a set of

    Sub
    Focus Punch
    Psycho Cut
    Night Slash / Brick Break

    Is what I'd personally consider. Ice Punch isn't really extremely useful for enough to warrant a slash, but maybe set comments.
  23. Evil Hamster

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    Medicham doesn't learn Night Slash.
  24. Seven Deadly Sins

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    Thus why Thunderpunch is the preferred attack, to hit Slowbro. Ice Punch does seem a little gimmicky, so yeah. I'd back a Sub/FP/PC/TP or BB set. Makes sense.
  25. JabbaTheGriffin

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    oh lol.

    Tpunch works alright then. Don't like the prospect of getting walled by claydol though. I'd go with Ice Punch as an option in the last slot then, it can be pretty useful.

    I'd just add it as the 3rd option on the last slot of the set SDS posted

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