Metagame MediocreMons [Leader's Choice!] (Clefable and Venomoth banned!)

#28
was silvally a quickban? if so, did it really deserve it? Its individual sets are not actually that strong, having to sacrifice both a reovery and damage item, making it very susecptible to hazards as a pivot and not actually very scary as a wallbreaker (its non-item offenses are actually the same as base 70/70 with the appropriate plate). Its physical movepool is the side that benefits most from its flexibility to pick a STAB + swords dance, but its only relevant coverage moves are iron head, dragon claw (?), crunch/pursuit, rock slide, and u-turn, along with some questionable elemental fangs. So while it does have 18 types to choose from, the number of good sets is much lower.
Its limited special sets will not be able to use a boosting move, in addition to lack of item, or ability.

Compare dragon type silvally to kingdra, is there really any comparison? Kingdra is imcomparably stronger. Nidoqueen, Clefable, these mons hugely outclass silvally. Silvally is revealed on switch-in so its sets shouldn't be considered as a whole, outside of the advantage of not knowing the typing until it switches in- and once the Silvally is known, all of its sets pale in comparison to some of the powerhouses in the tier. I think Silvally would be definitely usable and almost a definite pick for many teams thanks to it being high BST filler for any team, but I am struggling to think of broken sets. Its lack of item and ability really suck. The only reason I can think might be a normal type silvally (?), but would this really outclass something like vigoroth that has reliable recovery, boosting moves, excellent coverage moves like eq, elemental punches, gunk shot, play rough, hammer arm, sucker punch etc, can break walls with encore or phase with roar and eviolite (plus some semblance of an ability)?

I dont actually know too much about this tier but just comparing its performance in other tiers- just because Silvally can beat different pokemon with different items should not push it out of the tier, its individual sets are not good in comparison to the top tier mons in this meta and can be individually checked just fine. Clefable can beat like every Silvally too apart from a poison and steel one. Its "versatility" has not been enough to push it to tiers that rival things like nidoqueen and kingdra in other metas for a good reason.
 
Last edited:

EV

I don't do Santa hats
is a Battle Server Administratoris a Super Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
PS Policy Head
#29
Looking forward to playing once last gen's bans (Venomoth, Clefable, Nidoqueen) take effect again.

Also, don't think I didn't notice the placement of that Eevee in the logo.
 
#30
was silvally a quickban? if so, did it really deserve it? Its individual sets are not actually that strong, having to sacrifice both a reovery and damage item, making it very susecptible to hazards as a pivot and not actually very scary as a wallbreaker (its non-item offenses are actually the same as base 70/70 with the appropriate plate). Its physical movepool is the side that benefits most from its flexibility to pick a STAB + swords dance, but its only relevant coverage moves are iron head, dragon claw (?), crunch/pursuit, rock slide, and u-turn, along with some questionable elemental fangs. So while it does have 18 types to choose from, the number of good sets is much lower.
Its limited special sets will not be able to use a boosting move, in addition to lack of item, or ability.

Compare dragon type silvally to kingdra, is there really any comparison? Kingdra is imcomparably stronger. Nidoqueen, Clefable, these mons hugely outclass silvally. Silvally is revealed on switch-in so its sets shouldn't be considered as a whole, outside of the advantage of not knowing the typing until it switches in- and once the Silvally is known, all of its sets pale in comparison to some of the powerhouses in the tier. I think Silvally would be definitely usable and almost a definite pick for many teams thanks to it being high BST filler for any team, but I am struggling to think of broken sets. Its lack of item and ability really suck. The only reason I can think might be a normal type silvally (?), but would this really outclass something like vigoroth that has reliable recovery, boosting moves, excellent coverage moves like eq, elemental punches, gunk shot, play rough, hammer arm, sucker punch etc, can break walls with encore or phase with roar and eviolite (plus some semblance of an ability)?

I dont actually know too much about this tier but just comparing its performance in other tiers- just because Silvally can beat different pokemon with different items should not push it out of the tier, its individual sets are not good in comparison to the top tier mons in this meta and can be individually checked just fine. Clefable can beat like every Silvally too apart from a poison and steel one. Its "versatility" has not been enough to push it to tiers that rival things like nidoqueen and kingdra in other metas for a good reason.
I have to agree. Both Null and Silvally are pretty shit in standard, and yet they get banned before mons that are actually good, like Clefable, Kingdra and the Nidos?
 
#31
But the base mons in those cases do have stats under 100, it's the item that makes them break that, so I wasn't sure. thanks.
Spandan's code doesn't seem to check this. (ROM's code does. In fact, it will helpfully tell you which stat(s) are 100 or over.)
The biggest new threats this gen seem to be Oricorio, Togedemaru, and Alolan Raticate.
Well, they're the only three unbanned fully-evolved Pokémon, not including Wishiwashi, which we still need a ruling on. Then of course there are the middle evolutions: Brionne, Charjabug, Dartrix, Hakamo-o, Steenee, Torracat and Trumbeak. Of those, the evos of the starters do at least have somewhat usable BSTs, while Hakamo-o also has Soundproof as an option.
Looking forward to playing once last gen's bans (Venomoth, Clefable, Nidoqueen) take effect again.
Actually the banlist was Clefable, Kingdra and Venomoth.
 

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
is a Pre-Contributor
#32
In regards to the banning of Clef, King and Moth, I wanted to wait until the meta was playable and had a solid enough playerbase to state exactly how broken they are. I agree that Kingdra is probably as broken as before, and Clef may be worthy of a suspect test.

I have to agree. Both Null and Silvally are pretty shit in standard, and yet they get banned before mons that are actually good, like Clefable, Kingdra and the Nidos?
Firstly, one shouldn't use a mon's performance in standard to gauge how well it does in an OM. Silvally suffers from a lackluster movepool and a poor stat spread in standard. In MediocreMons, however, due to the limitated number of mons available, Silvally's movepool is more than enough to terrorize the entire viable metagame. And don't start with me on its stats.

Silvally @ Silk Scarf / Lum Berry / Firium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: RKS System
Naive / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Shadow Claw
- Flamethrower / Flame Charge

This set alone can beat most of the meta by itself. And the extremely few that can beat this set.....

Silvally @ Normalium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: RKS System
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Explosion
- Shadow Claw

Crumble to the raw power of the Z-Explosion set. And Specs is a viable option as well.

Type: Null is so bulky the strongest wallbreakers can't 2HKO it with investment. (Did any of you check the calcs in the ban history?)
 
#33
In regards to the banning of Clef, King and Moth, I wanted to wait until the meta was playable and had a solid enough playerbase to state exactly how broken they are. I agree that Kingdra is probably as broken as before, and Clef may be worthy of a suspect test.



Firstly, one shouldn't use a mon's performance in standard to gauge how well it does in an OM. Silvally suffers from a lackluster movepool and a poor stat spread in standard. In MediocreMons, however, due to the limitated number of mons available, Silvally's movepool is more than enough to terrorize the entire viable metagame. And don't start with me on its stats.

Silvally @ Silk Scarf / Lum Berry / Firium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: RKS System
Naive / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Shadow Claw
- Flamethrower / Flame Charge

This set alone can beat most of the meta by itself. And the extremely few that can beat this set.....

Silvally @ Normalium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: RKS System
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Explosion
- Shadow Claw

Crumble to the raw power of the Z-Explosion set. And Specs is a viable option as well.

Type: Null is so bulky the strongest wallbreakers can't 2HKO it with investment. (Did any of you check the calcs in the ban history?)
I'm aware that viability in one format =/= viability in another, but it still has some relation, and banning two Pokemon that aren't even ranked in RU before something like Clefable seems hasty. I know what the calcs say, but theory and practice can often be different, and we don't know how they actually are in practice in this meta. Plus Null doesn't have reliable recovery, so it's far from unbreakable. Maybe you're right, but I think they should have been suspected first.
 
#35
Lunatone sounds pretty viable. It gets nice Special Attack with Rock Polish, along with other coverage in Earth Power, Ice Beam, and Shadow Ball. It has low physical bulk and a lot of weaknesses, even with Levitate, though.

It could run these sets:
Offensive
Lunatone @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rock Polish
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Power Gem
- Earth Power
(stolen inspired from Smogon Analyses)

Defensive

Lunatone @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonlight
- Toxic
- Pain Split
- Ancient Power

Trick Room Suicide Lead
Lunatone @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Trick Room
- Explosion
- Magic Coat
 
#36
Lunatone sounds pretty viable. It gets nice Special Attack with Rock Polish, along with other coverage in Earth Power, Ice Beam, and Shadow Ball. It has low physical bulk and a lot of weaknesses, even with Levitate, though.

It could run these sets:
Offensive
Lunatone @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rock Polish
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Power Gem
- Earth Power
(stolen inspired from Smogon Analyses)
Defensive
Lunatone @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonlight
- Toxic
- Pain Split
- Ancient Power

Trick Room Suicide Lead
Lunatone @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Trick Room
- Explosion
- Magic Coat
Would a Specs set be more viable overall? Or is its Special Attack high enough to warrant running LO for the powerful coverage options on the Offensive set? I'm not really sure about that defensive set running Pain Split, I'd rather slash in Earth Power for pseudo-EdgeQuake coverage, I do like the inclusion of Ancient Power instead of Power Gem for that set though. The Trick Room set is really wonderful and I'm happy about the inclusion of Explosion on a set.
 

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
is a Pre-Contributor
#37
Would a Specs set be more viable overall? Or is its Special Attack high enough to warrant running LO for the powerful coverage options on the Offensive set? I'm not really sure about that defensive set running Pain Split, I'd rather slash in Earth Power for pseudo-EdgeQuake coverage, I do like the inclusion of Ancient Power instead of Power Gem for that set though. The Trick Room set is really wonderful and I'm happy about the inclusion of Explosion on a set.
Its speed is too slow and its typing and defensive stats can't take it. Its much better as a RP sweeper or even a sketchy Calm Mind set.
 
#38
Its speed is too slow and its typing and defensive stats can't take it. Its much better as a RP sweeper or even a sketchy Calm Mind set.
I'd probably run a Calm Mind set simply because of access to STAB Ancient Power + Recovery. It sounds like the Specs set just isn't worth running though, which is a shame because I really do like his movepool, not many Pokemon (if any at all) get access to a Special EdgeQuake combo along with access to Ice Beam.
 
#39
with this being chosen for lcotm, im gonna propose that something be done about the banlist, preferably soon. from my fairly extensive experience with this metagame last gen and my small amount of experience with it this gen, i think i can pretty safely say that kingdra, clefable and nidoqueen have no place in this tier. i understand that you don't want to quickban them G-Luke, but please don't wait too long to do something about them once the ladder goes up. slurpuff and venomoth are both also pretty obscene and will likely need to be looked at, but they aren't quite as egregious as the other 3.

on a related note, i don't think silvally and type: null are quickban worthy. very strong no doubt, but i think the quickban is a bit premature seeing as, from what i can tell, they were never actually tested. i'd like to see these two unbanned to at least test them out.
 
#40
having played this om alot or more than anyone the last 3 years its been up on for omotm, i can tell you that silvally is not quick ban worth at all.
its shocking how ur banning this mon before stuff like clef kingdra and venomoth, this is just insane.

let me address those calc
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Type: Null: 114-135 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 2.8% chance to 3HKO
first of all, pikachu just knocks off and it gets 2hko'd i dont know why this is matters much here and i dont see how this makes it so bulky

252 Atk Choice Band Basculin Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Type: Null: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
again what is so bad about this calc? what is that makes it so broken? it just gets knock'ed off and process to die later.

+1 252 SpA Venomoth Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 232-274 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
this calc is a joke. veno just sleep powders and subs type null cant win without sleep rolls against veno so i dont know why this is here and again
knock off.

type null is no where near quick ban worthy, this mon needs to be tested.
every set is hard walled by sableye/clef/ferro/quag and after its knocked off its dead weight. its most certainly a good mon but quickban when there's venomoth and kingdra in the tier. wack not to mention how stuff like pawniard,poliwrath and even more stuff

calcs like this are what are important
252+ SpA Poliwrath Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Type: Null: 300-354 (76.1 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 0 Atk Type: Null Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0 Atk Type: Null Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Klang: 104-123 (32 - 37.9%) -- 95% chance to 3HKO
+6 0 Atk Type: Null Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 110-130 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 0 Atk Type: Null Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Wynaut: 309-364 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO- trapped.
there's so many ghost in this tier, type null is not that big of a threat, there's enough checks/counters and ways to deal with this mon.
plz suspect actual broken mons

In regards to the banning of Clef, King and Moth, I wanted to wait until the meta was playable and had a solid enough playerbase to state exactly how broken they are. I agree that Kingdra is probably as broken as before, and Clef may be worthy of a suspect test.



Firstly, one shouldn't use a mon's performance in standard to gauge how well it does in an OM. Silvally suffers from a lackluster movepool and a poor stat spread in standard. In MediocreMons, however, due to the limitated number of mons available, Silvally's movepool is more than enough to terrorize the entire viable metagame. And don't start with me on its stats.

Silvally @ Silk Scarf / Lum Berry / Firium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: RKS System
Naive / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Shadow Claw
- Flamethrower / Flame Charge

This set alone can beat most of the meta by itself. And the extremely few that can beat this set.....

Silvally @ Normalium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: RKS System
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Explosion
- Shadow Claw

Crumble to the raw power of the Z-Explosion set. And Specs is a viable option as well.

Type: Null is so bulky the strongest wallbreakers can't 2HKO it with investment. (Did any of you check the calcs in the ban history?)
first of all, quag/gabite/sableye/clef even timbur /qwifish/medicham defensive nido/wynaut all stop those sets. those sets are so bad, if u really wanted to convinced people that silvally is quick ban worthy here's some actual sets

Silvally-Steel @ Steel Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower
- Thunder Wave
- Parting Shot

Silvally-Fairy @ Fairy Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Swords Dance
- Flame Charge
- Rock Slide

Silvally-Ghost @ Ghost Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Parting Shot
- Thunder Wave

Silvally-Water @ Water Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Parting Shot
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

i dont think this is quick ban worthy either, these mons need to be tested.
dunno why u quickbanned this for no reason at all because its not borderline broken, they are things in the tier atm that are borderline broken. kingdra/veno/clef, u dont need to play time to play the tier at all to actually see why these mons are broken because that is a waste of time while actuall suspect testing silvally is worth while. im not sure how u came to that conclusion because kingdra/veno/clef were all in the tier before and we know how broken they are, u cant just assume that silvally/type null are broken without even playing them in the tier and then say u want see how broken kingdra/veno/clef are because those 3 mons need to be quickbanned as far as im concerned.

and no the strongest attacks all 2hko type null with there special attacks
servine/poliwrath/vivili/specs snow after rocks/combusken and alot more. its not like type null can run 252/252 in both defenses it cant survive everything and it highly relies on evio and after its gone its deadweight.
 
#41
Kingdra banner holy shit!

10/10 IGN too much water best meta ever

But seriously, this does look to be a great metagame, one stall to rule them all.
 
Last edited:

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
is a Pre-Contributor
#42
with this being chosen for lcotm, im gonna propose that something be done about the banlist, preferably soon. from my fairly extensive experience with this metagame last gen and my small amount of experience with it this gen, i think i can pretty safely say that kingdra, clefable and nidoqueen have no place in this tier. i understand that you don't want to quickban them G-Luke, but please don't wait too long to do something about them once the ladder goes up. slurpuff and venomoth are both also pretty obscene and will likely need to be looked at, but they aren't quite as egregious as the other 3.

on a related note, i don't think silvally and type: null are quickban worthy. very strong no doubt, but i think the quickban is a bit premature seeing as, from what i can tell, they were never actually tested. i'd like to see these two unbanned to at least test them out.
I will come to a decision regarding these issues tommorow.
 
#43
I'm gonna be sitting here typing for a loooooooong time
Bulbasaur, Ivysaur
Charmander, Charmeleon
Squirtle, Wartortle
Caterpie, Metapod, Butterfree
Weedle, Kakuna, Beedrill*
Pidgey, Pidgeotto
Rattata, Raticate
Alolan Rattata, Alolan Raticate
Spearow
Ekans, Arbok
Pikachu
Sandshrew
Alolan Sandshrew
Nidoran F, Nidorina, Nidoqueen
Nidoran M, Nidorino
Clefairy, Clefable
Vulpix
Alolan Vulpix
Zubat, Golbat
Oddish, Gloom
Paras, Parasect
Venonat, Venomoth
Diglett
Alolan Diglett
Meowth
Alolan Meowth
Psyduck, Golduck
Mankey
Growlithe
Poliwag, Poliwhirl, Poliwrath
Machop
Bellsprout, Weepinbell
Ponyta
Slowpoke
Magnemite
Farfetch'd
Doduo
Seel, Dewgong
Grimer
Alolan Grimer
Drowzee
Exeggcute
Cubone (Thick Club)
Lickitung
Koffing
Rhyhorn
Horsea, Seadra
Goldeen, Seaking
Staryu
GodMagikarp
Ditto
Eevee
Porygon
Kabuto
Dratini, Dragonair
Chikorita, Bayleef
Cyndaquil, Quilava
Totodile, Croconaw
Sentret, Furret
Hoothoot
Ledyba
Spinarak, Ariados
Chinchou
Pichu
Cleffa
Igglybuff
Togepi
Natu, Xatu
Mareep, Flaafy
Marill
Hoppip, Skiploom
Aipom
Sunkern
Yanma
Wooper, Quagsire
Murkrow
Misdreavus
Unown
Girafarig
Pineco
Snubbull
Qwilfish
Teddiursa
Slugma
Swinub
Corsola
Remoraid
Delibird
Houndour
Kingdra
Phanpy
Stantler
Smeargle
Tyrogue
Smoochum
Elekid
Magby
Larvitar
Pupitar
Treecko, Grovyle
Torchic, Combusken
Mudkip, Marshtomp
Poochyena, Mightyena
Zigzagoon
Wurmple, Silcoon, Cascoon, Dustox
Lotad, Lombre
Seedot, Nuzleaf
Taillow
Wingull
Ralts, Kirlia
Surskit
Shroomish
Slakoth, Vigoroth
Nincada, Shedinja
Whismur, Loudred
Azurill
Skitty, Delcatty
Sableye*
Mawile*
Meditite, Medicham* (Telepathy only)
Electrike
Plusle
Minun
Volbeat
Illumise
Gulpin
Carvanha
Numel
Spoink
Spinda
Vibrava
Cacnea
Swablu
Lunatone
Solrock
Barboach
Corphish
Baltoy
Lileep
Anorith
Feebas
Castform
Shuppet
Duskull
Tropius
Chimecho
Wynaut
Snorunt, Glalie*
Spheal, Sealeo
Clamperl
Luvdisc
Bagon
Beldum
Turtwig, Grotle
Chimchar, Monferno
Piplup, Prinplup
Starly, Staravia
Bidoof, Bibarel
Kricketot, Kricketune
Shinx, Luxio
Budew
Burmy, Wormadam (Trash Cloak only), Mothim
Combee
Pachirisu
Buizel
Cherubi, Cherrim
Shellos
Drifloon
Buneary
Glameow
Chingling
Stunky
Bronzor
Bonsly
Mime Jr.
Chatot
Gible, Gabite
Riolu
Hippopotas
Skorupi
Croagunk
Finneon, Lumineon
Snover, Abomasnow*
Rotom (Normal form only)
Phione
Snivy, Servine
Tepig, Pignite
Oshawott, Dewott
Patrat, Watchog
Lillipup, Herdier
Purrloin
Pansage
Pansear
Panpour
Munna
Pidove, Tranquill
Blitzle
Roggenrola
Woobat
Drilbur
Timburr
Tympole, Palpitoad
Sewaddle, Swadloon
Venipede, Whirlipede
Cottonee
Petilil
Basculin
Sandile, Krokorok
Darumaka
Dwebble
Scraggy
Yamask
Trubbish, Garbodor
Zorua
Minccino
Gothita, Gothorita
Ducklett, Swanna
Vanillite, Vanillish
Deerling
Karrablast
Foongus
Frillish
Joltik
Ferroseed
Klink, Klang
Tynamo, Eelektrik
Elgyem
Litwick, Lampent
Axew
Cubchoo
Shelmet
Stunfisk
Mienfoo
Golett
Pawniard
Rufflet, Vullaby
Deino, Zweilous
Larvesta
Chespin, Quilladin
Fennekin, Braixen
Froakie, Frogadier
Bunnelby, Diggersby
Fletchling, Fletchinder
Scatterbug, Spewpa, Vivillon
Litleo
Flabébé, Floette
Skiddo
Pancham
Espurr
Spritzee
Swirlix, Slurpuff
Inkay, Malamar
Binacle
Skrelp
Clauncher
Helioptile
Tyrunt
Amaura
Goomy
Klefki
Phantump
Pumpkaboo (all sizes)
Bergmite
Noibat
Rowlet, Dartrix
Litten, Torracat
Popplio, Brionne
Pikipek, Trumbeak
Yungoos
Grubbin, Charjabug
Crabrawler
Cutiefly
Rockruff
Wishiwashi (Solo)
Mareanie
Dewpider
Fomantis
Morelull
Salandit
Stufful
Bounsweet, Steenee
Wimpod
Sandygast
Type: Null, Silvally
Togedemaru
Jangmo-o, Hakamo-o
Cosmog
Poipole

Pokemon with an asterisk next to their name are capable of Mega Evolution.
That took me over an hour I demand appreciation
 
Last edited:
#44
Here is a list of the mons above PU that are available in this tier
Clefable

Klefki

Venomoth

Nidoqueen

Quagsire

Kingdra

Slurpuff

Garbodor

Golbat

Xatu

Vivillon

Malamar

Rotom
 
Last edited:

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#46

I've been trying out this tier and it's really fun, but something probably needs to be done about Kingdra and Nidoqueen because dear lord they are absolutely monstrous threats.
Kingdra can only really by handled by Ferroseed as far as I can tell, Clefable can deal with it it sometimes, but if it's physically defensive it loses to Sniper (the most popular and arguably best set), and if it's specially defensive it can't really handle DD.
Nidoqueen just rips through everything while also having the bulk and typing to check a bunch of threats and set up Stealth Rocks or Toxic Spikes on top of all that. If anything can switch into it I haven't encountered it yet, the best you can realistically do is revenge kill it with something faster. It's admittedly held back by its mediocre speed, but if it can get in safely (and thanks to its defensive capabilities, it will), something is going to die.

Some comments on other pokemon:


Togedemaru is super good and definitely one of the best pokemon in the tier. Not only does it barely creep the key 95 base speed tier (thus outspeeding everything bar Swanna, Basculin and Frogadier), it also has the highest attack stat in the tier, and has really good defensive properties despite losing to Nidoqueen unless you flinch it. I've had a lot of fun with a set of Zing Zap/Iron Head/Substitute/Toxic which just trolls the crap out of everything slower and can even kinda square off against Ferrothorn, although it, ironically, is walled by opposing Togedemaru. I used to run Iron Barbs, but then I realized opposing Togedemaru can just break your sub with Zing Zap, so I switched to Lightningrod to prevent that. I'm still not sure which ability is best overall, but Iron Barbs cerantly hasn't been very useful outside of whipping opposing Togedemaru, especially since it doesn't work if you have a Sub up.


Venomoth is kinda dumb to deal with, especially with the combination of Tinted Lens and Savage Spin-Out basically guaranteeing, if not a full sweep, then at least tons of damage, as well as Sleep Power just... being Sleep Powder. I haven't had too much trouble facing it but I think that's mostly due to luck, there's not really much that handles it at all and I can definitely see it being considered broken.


Basculin is really powerful, I haven't faced it very often but every time I did it caused real problems for me. The only things really keeping it in check are Ferroseed and Kingdra, and even then you can play around them with Superpower. This thing absolutely wrecks offense since not even Togedemaru can revenge kill it, although I suppose Swanna can tie with it (though that still gets 2HKOed by band lol, this thing is strong). Also, strong priority is really good at dealing with certain setup sweepers, and Basculin is, as far as I know, the strongest priority user in the tier.


Clefable seems busted on paper, but in practice it's checked by a bunch of common threats like Nidoqueen, Togedemaru and Venomoth so it's really not a problem. Still, it's clearly a very, very good Pokemon and there's honestly not much reason for not running it on any given team because it just blanket checks so much stuff. If Nidoqueen and Venomoth get banned I can see it becoming in issue, but right now it's probably not something that should even be considered for a ban.
Similarly, Quagsire is really fat but it doesn't deal with the tier's setup sweepers particularly well and can be broken without too much trouble.


Xatu is pretty great if only because it completely shuts down Smeargle which I've found to be very common. Beyond that, it really packs a punch, Psychic/Heat Wave/Shadow Ball hits just about everything, and it sits at a great speed tier. I have been kinda disappointed with its bulk since I've been running an offensive LO set, but I'm sure you can make a defensive set workable (absolutely run enough speed for Nidoqueen though!)


I've faced a bunch of Pikachu and it's actually not bad: its Electric STABs hit super hard, Surf lets it hit Nidoqueen for SE damage as well as Togedemaru neutrally and it also has Grass Knot for Quagsire. It hasn't caused me a lot of trouble though because, ironically enough, its speed isn't high enough to outpace a lot of offensive threats (and in case it isn't clear, I've been using offense), and it's extremely frail even by Mediocremons standards (Togedemaru 2HKOes it with Iron Head, just to give you an idea of how paper-thin its defenses are). It also can't reliably 2HKO physically defensive Clefable which is a problem (Volt Tackle does over 50%, but Clefable can just spam Softboiled until the recoil KOes it). Still a decent Pokemon though, if you want at tier where Pikachu is actually good then I guess this one is for you.


Ditto is great! I originally put this thing on my team to revenge kill Agility Kingdra (it's pretty much the only thing in the tier that does this offensively) and I've never regretted it. Thanks to Tinted Lens, it also revenge kills Venomoth as long as it's already used up its Z move/doesn't carry it (Sludge Bomb/Bug Buzz 2HKOes so as long as it isn't a bulky variant it can't just keep setting up on you), so that's the 2 most broken sweepers in the tier taken care of. Mediocremons is so focused on setup sweepers that Ditto really thrives in it. I haven't yet seen it used by anyone else on the ladder but I can guarantee that it's a solid pick. Unfortunately it can't revenge kill Slurpuff, but personally I haven't really had any problems with it so far.
 
Last edited:

Squawkerz

Torchic is best mon
#47
after playing this for a bit, i'm going to post my opinions on some notable pokemon in this metagame.


For some reason, every match I have played with or against Venomoth, it has always been very underwhelming. I think the reason is because Nidoqueen deals with it easily pre Quiver Dance with Earth Power (with Stealth Rock) and Flamethrower (without Stealth Rock). Pre QD, Xatu also switches into Sleep Powder and can OHKO back with Psychic after Rocks, and Xatu only loses if Rocks are up on it's side of the field. If Nidoqueen gets banned i think this thing will go soon after.


Not gonna say much on these, since Albacore's post above says what I would say. These are very broken.


This is a monster that I feel is very underused in the meta. When paired with a pokemon that can handily deal with Steels (For instance, Nidoqueen), Specs Chatot's Boomburst/Chatter/Heat Wave combo nearly 2HKO/OHKOs the entire tier. 91 Speed is very good in this meta, as it creeps Pre-Quiver Dance Venomoth and Pikachu, and can OHKO both. Unfortunatley, Togedemaru handily deals with it. Not worth banning, but still very good.


Klang is a decent pokemon in the tier. It has the second highest Defense stat in the meta (#1 is Whirlipede), and has respectable Special Defense when paired with Eviolite. With it's high defenses, it can set up Shift Gear easily and Gear Grind the opponent. Unfortunately, it's coverage is pretty bad, so it is forced to run Wild Charge and a Normal move which leaves it vulnerable to steels like ferroseed, togedemaru, and opposing klang. but with a good steel answer like Nidoqueen (see a trend?), Klang can put a large dent into opposing teams. It also loses to Nidoqueen unless you have +2 attack or +1 and sacrifice eviolite for Steelium Z, but it appreciates the bulk more.
 

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
is a Pre-Contributor
#48

After playing a few games myself with both of these threats, I can safely say that both of these things are disgusting, Kingdra in particular. Kingdra has no counters period, as I have been running Hidden Power Fire for Ferroseed, and it has dominated in almost every battle I had. DDance + Dragonium Z is really nice too
, and I have even tinkered with Mixed swiftswim sets. Point is, its too splashable and much too powerful for the tier.

Nidoqueen is in a similar boat, as while its speed is middling at times, its power and bulk more than makes up for it. While I have only used Offensive Nidoqueen, people have told me and I have faced defensive Nido and it is no walk in the park to play around. It basically mandates a Xatu unless you hazard removal game is that on point, [re: its not] and its Toxic Spikes, (that thanks to bulk and power, it can guarantee gets up) let it wear out the few checks it has.

In short, Nidoqueen and Kingdra are now banned from Mediocremons. Tagging The Immortal to see this.


Also, a Type: Null and Silvally suspect test will be underway as soon as TI sees this, as the community feels I was too hasty on my decision to ban them without any testing.

Prep your Venomoths!
 

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#49
Couple of other thing I've noticed since the changes:

I'm... honestly not sure what to make of Silvally. SD seems good in theory, specifically with Fighting memory, but I've never actually managed to make it work due to the prevalence of Unaware Clefable and Quagsire. Bulky sets are probably pretty effective, but they aren't exactly gamebreaking, so for the time being, I don't see much of a reason Silvally can't stay. Its offensive movepool is just far too weak for it to be particularly hard to deal with, and the lack of Leftovers really limits its supportive capabilities and besides, we have bigger fish to fry *cough*Venomoth*cough*

Rotom is REALLY good simply because Ghost STAB is really good. I've mostly seen scarf but honestly, its speed tier is so good it can easily get away with running Specs and just spamming Shadow Ball, and when it does it's usually blowing massive chunks in the opposing team. It also switches in on Togedemaru pretty well which is a plus. Just a really solid mon I've been seeing more and more of recently.

Arbok has been a little tougher for me to deal with since Nidoqueen got removed. The combination of Sucker Punch and Coil can make it kinda tough for offensive teams to deal with, since offense staples now tend to either be physical attackers or weak to Dark. Probably not a huge threat, but definitely something that benefited from the Nidoqueen ban.

I've seen a handful of Wartotle and every single time I do, it takes hits WAY better than I expect it to. Mostly, it stands out as one of the only viable spinners, making it great for defensive spike-stacking teams, but it also seems to work well as a generic bulky water. Not something I've personally used, but defenitely something that gives me trouble whenever I face it

If Venomoth gets banned I imagine that Malamar might become an issue. Being able to switch into Xatu, one of the biggest threats in the tier, and then start boosting up can make it very hard to deal with, especially since, much like Arbok, the defense boosts make it tricky to revenge kill. Of course, right now it's checked very reliably by Venomoth, so I haven't really that much trouble with it. But the few times I've hard switched it into Malamar only to get hit by Psycho Cut have ended very badly for me, and without such a safe check as Venomoth it might get out of hand. Of course, we've always got the Unaware mons, and Clefable in general is a pretty hard stop to it, so perhaps it won't be that big of a problem

Oh yeah and in case it wasn't clear Venomoth is ridiculous, it sweeps over 50% of the time it's not even funny
 
#50
I laddered with stall and it is stupidly good, having Xatu and very bulky defoggers like Vullaby or Golbat makes the hazard control very easy, very few setup sweepers can break through Clef + Quag and Ferro + Clef walls everything too. The only issues I see are Veno and Vivillon, Abomasnow, SR Pawniard, Specs Rotom and Taunt Sableye could be nuisance. I also would like to pinpoint the fact that Drought and Aurora Veil are allowed so Vulpix has some potential I think.
 
Last edited: