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Meditite (Currently Banned)

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by Ray Jay, Mar 20, 2012.

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  1. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "Jump first, ask questions later, oui oui!"
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    May 20, 2010

    Current LC Council Discussion Topic

    Meditate Pokémon

    Fighting / Psychic
    Pure Power / Telepathy (Released)

    General (open)

    Meditite, a beast due to its fantastic coverage for LC, incredible Attack stat, access to priority, and much, much more. A victim of the previous "Big Four," Meditite was banned early last July along with Carvanha, Gligar, and Misdreavus (the last two have been unbanned recently). Meditite is now up for discussion as to whether or not it is truly broken and whether or not it can make the current metagame objectively more enjoyable.​

    Why is it being reconsidered?
    First and foremost, Meditite had to go when Misdreavus went. Depending on its moves, it can beat most if its normal counters, such as Slowpoke, with relative ease. Misdreavus was amongst the only solid answers to Meditite, and now that it is unbanned, Meditite may be able to flourish and balance the meta. Amongst its advantages it brings to the meta are viable competitive competition to Mienfoo and Croagunk while having the completely niche ability to check both Gligar and Scraggy in some circumstances. Hopefully, Meditite would allow more things in the metagame to have advantages, such as the aforementioned Slowpoke, who could become competitive competition for defensive Gligar in the case that 3 Punch Meditite with Ice Punch > ThunderPunch becomes popular. Of course, Meditite is very tricky to counter due to its incredible Attack, meaning it could become the new face everyone is sick of seeing. Either way, it has tons of utility and the potential to rock a currently confused meta.​

    Stats and Movepool (open)

    HP: 30
    Attack: 40
    Defense: 55
    Special Attack: 40
    Special Defense: 55
    Speed: 60
    Total: 280​

    1 Bide
    4 Meditate
    8 Confusion
    11 Detect
    15 Hidden Power
    18 Mind Reader
    22 Feint
    25 Calm Mind
    29 Force Palm
    32 Hi Jump Kick
    39 Acupressure
    43 Power Trick
    46 Reversal
    50 Recover​

    Baton Pass
    Bullet Punch
    Drain Punch
    Fake Out
    Fire Punch
    Guard Swap
    Ice Punch
    Power Swap
    Psycho Cut
    Secret Power

    *all of these are illegal w/ Telepathy
    Body Slam
    Double Edge
    Dream Eater
    Fire Punch
    Helping Hand
    Ice Punch
    Low Kick
    Magic Coat
    Mega Kick
    Mega Punch
    Pain Split
    Role Play
    Seismic Toss
    Signal Beam
    Vacuum Wave
    Zen Headbutt​

    3 Psyshock
    4 Calm Mind
    6 Toxic
    8 Bulk Up
    10 Hidden Power
    11 Sunny Day
    16 Light Screen
    17 Protect
    18 Rain Dance
    19 Telekinesis
    21 Frustration
    27 Return
    29 Psychic
    30 Shadow Ball
    31 Brick Break
    32 Double Team
    33 Reflect
    39 Rock Tomb
    42 Facade
    44 Rest
    45 Attract
    47 Low Sweep
    48 Round
    52 Focus Blast
    56 Fling
    67 Retaliate
    70 Flash
    77 Psych Up
    80 Rock Slide
    83 Work Up
    84 Poison Jab
    85 Dream Eater
    86 Grass Knot
    87 Swagger
    90 Substitute
    94 Rock Smash
    4 Strength​

    Eviolite (open)

    name: Eviolite
    move 1: Drain Punch
    move 2: Bullet Punch
    move 3: Ice Punch
    move 4: ThunderPunch / Zen Headbutt
    item: Eviolite
    ability: Pure Power
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 116 HP / 196 Atk /156 Def / 36 Spe​

    Despite it's initially lackluster stats, Meditite has Pure Power, making him the only Pokemon who can boast an Attack stat of 28 while holding an Eviolite (suck it, Cubone). An Eviolite set allows it to be arguably the best answer to Scraggy while simultaneously threatening out defensive Pokemon who can't deal enough damage against Drain Punch. ​

    Drain Punch: Best option against Scraggy since Hi Jump Kick is risky. Do note the massive power attained by Hi Jump Kick, however. Also, Drain Punch backed by Pure Power allows Meditite to have an easier time against defensive Pokemon such as Porygon than Pokemon such as Mienfoo, who have a harder time taking it out. ​

    Bullet Punch: Priority move, can pick off weakened offensive Gligar, weakened Tirtouga and Omanyte, and does massive damage to the likes of Taillow, Snover, and other Pokemon. While it's not the move you go to when you need to OHKO something, it allows Meditite more usability late game when a weakened faster Pokemon threatens to end an otherwise fine sweep.​

    Ice Punch: In this meta, Ice Punch is all but non-negotiable due to the fact that Meditite NEEDS to be able to hit Murkrow and Gligar. It also gains some notable intricacies, such as the just noticeable freeze chance. ​

    ThunderPunch: An awesome move to hit Murkrow again along with Staryu. Most importantly, it allows Meditite to handle one of its most common checks, Slowpoke, if hazard support is provided. It also provides neutral coverage on a bunch of things such as Misdreavus, which can be useful in conjunction with its nifty paralyze chance. Alternatively, you could go with​

    Zen Headbutt: Rounds out Meditite's neutral coverage nicely, but leaves it open to opposing Slowpoke. It also invites opposing Murkrow to come in on a predicted switch. However, it is boosted by STAB and is Meditite's best option to hit opposing Mienfoo and Croagunk, the two current dominant Fighting-types.​

    Honorable mention:
    Fake Out: A fantastic idea for teams needing it as Meditite possesses one of the strongest non-STAB Fake Outs in the tier. Unfortunately, Meditite has a hard time fitting it onto this set.​

    Resisting Drain Punch and taking only neutral damage from Crunch, Meditite is arguably one of the best Scraggy checks around. Due to the completely massive Attack stat and ridiculous coverage with 4 moves, Meditites is capable of tearing down walls for faster teammates to sweep later while applying pressure itself. It resists / takes a pittance from most priority, and its severe bulk combine to form one fearsome Pokemon for opposing teams to face. Notable problems to this set include Slowpoke if one opts for Zen Headbutt and Misdreavus regardless. Misdreavus will threaten Meditite out nine times out of ten; however, it lacks semi-reliable recovery that Meditite has through Drain Punch. For this reason, Stunky can be a good teammate to trap and eliminate Ghost-types, especially if Meditite opts for Hi Jump Kick.​

    Will add more sets later.

    Please add your input, regardless of whether or not you're in the Council! We're dying to hear from you, especially if you participated in the last meta with Meditite!
  2. comatthew6

    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 7, 2010
    Meditate very much over centralized the meta game and was banned for a reason. With Pure Power backing up its stellar move pool definitely made it an overpowered threat, it could really fuck teams up. Also, its best check, slowpoke, is naturally countered by misdreavus, a staple on any team. Also, though it can't directly switch on, Choice Scarf Snover can handle Gligar and Murkrow. Choice Scarf Shellder works in the same respect, but with a better ability to take physical attacks but less of an ability to deal with Slowpoke.

    I've been here for awhile now; I know when I see a broken Pokemon. Meditate is broken; keep this thing banned.
  3. AlphaJolt


    Jan 14, 2010
    I was part of the metagame when Meditite was around, and he is the definition of broken. Meditite can hit 14 attack with 196 atk evs and an adamant nature, which turns into 28 after Pure Power kicks in, and 15 speed, which is outspeeding a good chunk of the metagame already. The speed is a drawback, but if you switch in on something that can't hurt you, like Bronzor, you get a free shot at whatever is thrown out as a counter. With the move coverage of Drain Punch/HJK, Zen Headbutt, Ice Punch, and Thunder Punch, Meditite can hit nearly every single one of its counters/checks for super effective damage. Just to name a few, Slowpoke, Murkrow, and Gligar. Even Misdreavous takes a chunk from Zen Headbutt and will be 2HKOd, granted it will force the switch initially. If you predict wrong, just switch it out and try again in a few turns when another fodder comes out. The only drawback is the speed. With an eviolite, Meditites defenses (without any investment and assuming a Jolly nature) are 19, 18, 18. It will be able to take a hit and KO back if it's not super effective.

    Here are some calcs of what Meditite can do to it's "counters":

    Defensive Gligar (24 HP, 20 Def, Eviolite): Ice Punch: 20 min

    Physical Wall Slowpoke (27 HP, 17 Def, Eviolite): Thunderpunch: 12-16

    Defensive CM Murkrow (25 HP, 13 Def, Eviolite): Ice/Thunderpunch: 16-20

    Misdreavus (22 HP, 13 Def, Eviolite): Zen Headbutt: 13-16

    None of those took Stealth Rock into account. Meditite does not need the priority attacks to be a big threat. If you opt to use one of them, you lose coverage on one of the above but can then revenge the others (but in Slowpoke's case you already outspeed). Meditite will be overcentralizing because it's such a big threat due to the fact that it has great move coverage coming off of an attack stat of 28. Meditite was banned for these reasons and should stay banned. It proved to be broken when Misdreavus, it's "biggest counter" was still around, so I'm not sure what's expected to change now that Misdreavus is unbanned again, because Meditite is broken whether Misdreavus is banned or unbanned.

    I'm trying not to picture people using Gligar to Baton Pass either Agility or Swords Dance, but Meditite does get Work Up to boost it's attack if needed, it's just that it's not fast enough to abuse that.
  4. comatthew6

    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 7, 2010
    Alpha jolt a better way to boost with Meditite would to run a lot of Special Defense with Bulk up but agreeing with you that setting up was generally a poor option. A choice scarf was also popular (or maybe it was just me) but that Wouk allow it to get preemptive strikes on the Pokemon that normally counter it, bar Slowpoke. this will pretty much ensure 2hkos if it predicts correctly and has sr up, which is what makes it such a threat.
  5. Furai

    Furai we will become who we are meant to be
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    May 4, 2010
    While I do miss the Meditite and Carvanha era, I have to agree with comatt. Sure, it makes one of the finest, if not the best, counters to Scraggy, but hey, now we have Murkrow, Mienfoo, Gligar, and Croagunk to deal with it. And look at AlphaJolt's calculations; Meditite is the epitome of broken. Immediate 28 Attack? No thank you. Couple that monster with Baton Pass Gligar and you win.

    I won't say no for a trial period; but this is assuming all Murkrow, Misdreavus, and Gligar will remain unbanned. There's nothing better than a results from experiments!
  6. spuds4ever


    Oct 4, 2011
    I wasn't around when this guy was in the metagame, but with 28 attack without any setting up or the sacrifice of a hold item and still decent speed (which as Furai mentioned, when given an agilipass outspeeds all scarfers except elekid and voltorb which still tie) and to top it off, it gets low sweep too, it will be an insane threat and unlike the other three where carrying a steel is generally a very good idea, but not strictly necessary, every team would have to carry a ghost to just swallow his HJKs and drain punches alone or bare minimum gligar/slowpoke (who risk having to suck an ice punch/thunderpunch).

    Besides, if we're reintroducing him as a counter to scraggy, we'll have an even larger threat on our hands and tbh, scraggy isn't that hard to prepare for, especially seeing as he doesn't 2hko EVERYTHING, literally.

    I don't think reintroducing him would be a good idea myself as we'd probably have to sacrifice yet another team slot to counter a big new threat and this would make stall and balance would drop even lower down as viable playstyles but that's just my 2 cents.
  7. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 28, 2008
    One of my posts or something about Meditite that definitely still applies.
    Too bulky due to Eviolite, too powerful, and has too many coverage options. I say hell na to Meditite.
  8. PoJ


    Jun 11, 2010
    Meditite is broken, there's really no question about it. 26/28 Atk without setting up is crazy! And with decent defenses + Eviolite you have yourself a beast (a very cute beast!). And I would imagine that a choice scarf set would probably be the best revenger in the game, and a great late game sweeper as well. That's all I have to say :3
  9. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "Jump first, ask questions later, oui oui!"
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    May 20, 2010
    If we could avoid "Meditite is completely broken" posts that'd be fantastic. The stats and even movepool argument is poor if you can't back it up with its direct influence on the metagame as Heysup has. Please discuss its implications IN the metagame. Don't prove it's broken by saying it was banned before because it's broken. Love ya always.
  10. Jansports


    Apr 26, 2011
    Meditite's big threat is that by out speeding and threatening common physically defensive pokemon Such as Slowpoke, Lileep, Ferroseed, and Bronzor, While being able to pose a massive threat to them with SE attack options. While being about to do a good 9-10 neutral or 13-15 Stab from any number of the Punches (All 75 power as it were) In a place where hit points exist in the 20s. I'm looking over February's usage list for something that could switch into a neutral hit, and either OHKO or survive the second (specifically chosen for it) attack from a standard set of meditite. Murkrow and Missy can survive and OHKO with STABed SE attacks, but so far nothing else can safely switch in without prediction.

    I might be looking at this the wrong way, but I've never liked the idea of Having to revenge kill a pokemon being the standard answer to it's existence. Famed physical defensive wall are broken down easily by Medi, and the most prudent course is to attempt to OHKO with one of two already popular Pokes.

    In addition to incentivising the usage of two pokemon already in the top 10 for usage, bringing an Alarming STAB 80 Base Power comming off 28 attack that Super Effects the most common type among the top 20 (fighting) in usage.

    Meditite would both trample on several established pokes in the metagame and simultaneously make a very short list of already high in usage mons more attractive in the teambuilding process. I cannot say that these two factors would not cause over centralization.
  11. blarajan

    blarajan Rest in Bling
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    VGC Co-Leader

    Aug 29, 2010
    If a Pokemon makes me consider using Slowpoke on my team, then it's broken, j/s.

    In all honesty, if you think people use Gligar a lot, we'll just have to take a look at Meditite. There is nothing aside from Slowpoke that can honestly reliably check Meditite, and even Slowpoke doesn't do that great of a job due to Meditite's neutrality to Psychic-type attacks and good bulk with Eviolite. Aside from that, Gligar gets smashed, Mienfoo gets smashed, Scraggy gets smashed, Misdreavus gets smashed, Murkrow (granted it OHKOes with Brave Bird--I think...) gets smashed, Bronzor gets smashed...the entire fucking metagame gets smashed. I don't think it's good practice to have a behemoth like this that can 2HKO the entire meta at least without set-up and with good bulk and great coverage and STABs. Too broke.
  12. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    Mar 25, 2011
    honestly im on the fence with meditite. sure it can 2hko the whole meta, but its not particularly fast, and not exactly bulky. all of its checks rely on it not using drain punch so you guys are really exagerating its bulk. its so overly reliant on prediction that unless you are a god player who can read minds (ie none of you) its not going to win games for you as often as you think. everything faster has a way of bringing massive pain to it. also in a juice meta sturdy users lol at it.
  13. AlphaJolt


    Jan 14, 2010
    Prem, the thing about Meditite is that it hits so hard that you don't need to have good prediction to use it. If you miss, you switch out and try again in a few turns because it can switch it quite easily. You underestimate the bulk of Eviolite Tite. It heals up with Drain Punch, which is a STAB move coming off of a 28 attack stat.

    From a defensive view, I shouldn't need to rely on my prediction skills to check a single poke. Tite has the coverage to hit all of its checks bar Missy for super effective damage, and even though it doesn't hit Missy for super effective damage it can still 2HKO her (view previous post for calcs). Slowpoke and Gligar are the two best physical walls in the game that have reliable recovery, and they are both beaten easily by Meditite. If that doesn't scream broken then I don't know what else does.
  14. metsrule158

    metsrule158 Don't disturb him on his break.
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 2, 2010
    I was around at that time, and Meditite really was broken. Its attack stat is already high enough with its ability, but an eviolite just makes it even harder to deal with. Its movepool is also something to be afraid of, with it also having two powerful STAB attacks. If a team has nothing that can potentially OHKO Meditite or at least stall it out somehow, the opposing player has already lost.
  15. SkyNet

    SkyNet MediEvil!

    Mar 7, 2009
    I don't see what all the fuss is about, Meditite was far from 'broken' when it was harshly banned. If you lose your checks then of course you are going to lose, that goes to every threat in the metagame!

    Murkrow, missy, slowpoke and that psychic thingy can all check the kung fu monkey!
  16. Tomahawk

    is a Tutoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Oct 2, 2010
    196Atk Pure Power lvl 5 Meditite (+Atk) Hi Jump Kick vs 196HP/100Def Eviolite lvl 5 Murkrow (+Def): 84% - 100% (21 - 25 HP). Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.

    196Atk Pure Power lvl 5 Meditite (+Atk) Zen Headbutt vs 36HP/40Def Eviolite Levitate lvl 5 Misdreavus (Neutral): 56% - 69% (13 - 16 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    196Atk Pure Power lvl 5 Meditite (+Atk) ThunderPunch vs 116HP/236Def Eviolite lvl 5 Slowpoke (+Def): 44% - 59% (12 - 16 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
  17. SkyNet

    SkyNet MediEvil!

    Mar 7, 2009
    I said check not counter, both krow and missy can either force it out or OHKO with shadow ball or brave bird. Slowpoke can cripple it with t-wave. Murkrow can 2hko the vast majority of the metagame aswell.

    Also standard meditite didn't run hi jump kick.
  18. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music still not a girl, sry
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 25, 2008
    I'm gonna lock this, as the council has given a decision, so this doesn't really warrant any more discussion.

    edit: errr, actually I'll wait until I get a chance to talk to aerrow and some others first
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