u know, i saw a zweilious pic up further and it got me thinking how jolly hydreigon cna actually counter the mega mawile problem. he resists sucker punch, is very good offensively and with choice specs that thing can't live fire blast, maybe even flamethrower if u dont like the accuracy problem. besides, what with all the charizards flying around and sand rush teams, it is going to have plenty of teams countering it.That being said,if anyone baton passes speed boost to him, mawile is really only stopped by heatran.
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Metagame Mega Evolution in Sun & Moon
- Thread starter Halcyon.
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+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 308-363 (108.8 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Baton pass is banned and Hydreigon is OHKOed by Play Rough
yeah but he outspeeds
and i thought baton pass was only banned for multiple stats
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Sorry my bad out has the BP clause. Generally anything faster than Mawile that resists Sucker Punch and isn't super frail can revenge it but you're pretty much forced to sack something if it gets a clean switch in
yeah im not as worried as most of u about this i have a certain tanky poison water type that can infestation and scald it to death.
Only in OU. Everywhere else it's banned iirc.
Been trying Mawile on ScoliPass and I've got to say it's pretty decent. Saving it for late-game sweeping seems to be the best way to use it there (I'm using a max HP/Spe spread with an Adamant nature)
I also saw someone completly destroying a stall team with it, which may not be a good thing in the long run.
Mewtwonite X and Y are also released. Not that it is too relevant for OU, since Mewtwo is banned, but it should be put under "Released" for consistency's sake.
I have a question regarding Mega Mawile. Do you think the Fang egg moves (Fire, Thunder, Ice and Poison) would have a niche for Mega Mawile? Like as an anti-Tapu move or as coverage against other specific threats?
Fang moves for Tapus are completely unnecessary as Iron Head and Play Rough 2HKO all of them at worst. (Tapu Fini needs very heavy physical defense investment and a Bold nature to have a good shot at avoiding the 2HKO from Iron Head. Which is the weaker STAB)
Ice Fang for Landorus-T could be used, though.
Thunder Punch as a move tutor move from gen 6 might be nice for Celesteela and Toxapex (Thunder Punch is just a hair stronger than Thunder Fang):
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 334-394 (109.8 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Thunder Fang vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 290-342 (95.3 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
I would imagine that Mawile's STAB moves in Play Rough and Iron Head would be able to handle all of the Tapus relatively well. Tapu Fini still takes a chunk from either move and both are stronger than Poison or Thunder Fang:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 210-247 (61.2 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 186-220 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Poison Fang vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 156-184 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Thunder Fang vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 202-238 (58.8 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mawile gets Thunder Punch and Ice Punch, which hit harder and have better accuracy than the fangs
I can see TPunch with quite some use, note sure about FFang or Ice Punch
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Greninja'd
Fire Fang is the main one. That Bops skarm, Celestta, Scizor and many other steels. Infact Its probably the best coverage move. Competing with knock off and Iron head. Poisen Fang is useless when you have iron head and Thunder fang really only hurts Bulky waters like toxapex and manaphy who can be handled with knock off. Ice fang is useful in the fact it deals with lando I guess
Thunder Punch should be standard outside of SD. You absolutely need Thunder Punch to break through Pex, or else it just walls you to hell and you can no longer dismantle bulkier builds. The only set I wouldn't run T punch are on SD sets because Knock Off can do enough to Pex at +2 that it can't stall you out, while still OHKOing or heavily denting all the other relevant steels bar Phys Def Skarm and Mega Sciz. Iron Head is honestly useless outside of hitting Mega Venusaur because most everything else is already covered by its coverage moves, so I just don't see much of a reason to use Iron Head outside of luring Venu.
I think we can all agree that Mega Mawile needs Play Rough in every set it runs. The other three largely depend on whether it's SD 3 Attacks, Sub 3 Attacks, Sub SD, 4 Attacks, etc.
The optimal moves to can't be determined quite yet, as this is only the first day of its release, but the following sets are what I think will be effective for short-term usage.
SD 3 Attacks
-Swords Dance
-Play Rough
-Knock Off/Thunder Punch
-Fire Fang/Sucker Punch
Knock Off and Thunder Punch are slashed together here since +2 Knock and unboosted T Punch do the same job more or less, which is hitting Celesteela and Pex. Fire Fang helps versus slower steels while Sucker helps against offense. The choices come down to team composition mostly.
Sub 3 Attacks
-Substitute
-Focus Punch
-Play Rough
-Thunder Punch
Standard stuff. Sub for safety, FP for Tran and other fat targets, PR is STAB, and T Punch prevents Pex and other bulky waters from causing problems.
Sub SD
-Substitute
-Swords Dance
-Play Rough
-Knock Off
Self-explanatory for the first two moves. Boosted Play Rough and Knock Off have excellent neutral coverage together.
4 Attacks
-Play Rough
-Thunder Punch
-Fire Fang
-Sucker Punch
AoA needs T Punch for Pex, Steela, and fat waters. Fire Fang punches through Ferro, Sciz, and the like. Sucker helps Mawile patch up the vulnerability to offense.
I'm sure these aren't perfect movesets but they should be a good starting point. I'd like to discuss which sets I think are best but it's too early to be sure. Once things settle down it should be evident.
One last topic is Dugtrio. In order to not get trapped and KO'd by EQ, Dugtrio must have taken prior damage if it's sashed, and Mawile must pack Sucker Punch or be behind a Sub to pick it off. Otherwise sash Dug will always 1v1 Mega Mawile (Actually Mawile has a small chance to live from full but that's unreliable).
Edit Siggu your spread should have 92 HP EVs, not 94. Otherwise it looks great.
The optimal moves to can't be determined quite yet, as this is only the first day of its release, but the following sets are what I think will be effective for short-term usage.
SD 3 Attacks
-Swords Dance
-Play Rough
-Knock Off/Thunder Punch
-Fire Fang/Sucker Punch
Knock Off and Thunder Punch are slashed together here since +2 Knock and unboosted T Punch do the same job more or less, which is hitting Celesteela and Pex. Fire Fang helps versus slower steels while Sucker helps against offense. The choices come down to team composition mostly.
Sub 3 Attacks
-Substitute
-Focus Punch
-Play Rough
-Thunder Punch
Standard stuff. Sub for safety, FP for Tran and other fat targets, PR is STAB, and T Punch prevents Pex and other bulky waters from causing problems.
Sub SD
-Substitute
-Swords Dance
-Play Rough
-Knock Off
Self-explanatory for the first two moves. Boosted Play Rough and Knock Off have excellent neutral coverage together.
4 Attacks
-Play Rough
-Thunder Punch
-Fire Fang
-Sucker Punch
AoA needs T Punch for Pex, Steela, and fat waters. Fire Fang punches through Ferro, Sciz, and the like. Sucker helps Mawile patch up the vulnerability to offense.
I'm sure these aren't perfect movesets but they should be a good starting point. I'd like to discuss which sets I think are best but it's too early to be sure. Once things settle down it should be evident.
One last topic is Dugtrio. In order to not get trapped and KO'd by EQ, Dugtrio must have taken prior damage if it's sashed, and Mawile must pack Sucker Punch or be behind a Sub to pick it off. Otherwise sash Dug will always 1v1 Mega Mawile (Actually Mawile has a small chance to live from full but that's unreliable).
Edit Siggu your spread should have 92 HP EVs, not 94. Otherwise it looks great.
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On this matter, 104 HP EVs guarantee surviving an Earthquake from full HP.
Uninvested base 70s (AKA Skarmory) outspeed you with that HP investment, however. (Needs 164 Speed EVs to outrun that speed tier, and with those EVs it can only use 152)
92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe could be of use, letting you outspeed Skarmory (something relevant as Thunder Punch is more useful now) while having the highest reasonable chance (87.5%) of avoiding the OHKO from Dugtrio's Earthquake.
Don't slash Sucker on SD 3 attacks, it's one of its main draws because otherwise it's just an incredibly slow attacker easy to take advantage of, just like Marowak for example.
That reminds me, do you guys think there is a potential 4MSS for SD Mawile?
I agree that Sucker is near-mandatory, but if a player really doesn't need the priority since Mawile is supported sufficiently, Fire Fang might be a better choice. However, I personally would never run SD 3 Attacks Mega Mawile without Sucker Punch.
Edit Morningstar Sort of. Mawile would like Sub on every set, but that's not realistic. Choosing coverage between Knock/Fire Fang/Thunder Punch/Focus Punch can be tough at times but I find that the set itself makes it less of an issue. For example, Focus Punch will only ever appear on Sub sets and Knock will only ever appear on SD sets. It's not too hard to support since each set only has a few mons that specifically check that set; luring these mons isn't terribly hard generally.
Edit Morningstar Sort of. Mawile would like Sub on every set, but that's not realistic. Choosing coverage between Knock/Fire Fang/Thunder Punch/Focus Punch can be tough at times but I find that the set itself makes it less of an issue. For example, Focus Punch will only ever appear on Sub sets and Knock will only ever appear on SD sets. It's not too hard to support since each set only has a few mons that specifically check that set; luring these mons isn't terribly hard generally.
Tbh you could easily run Focus Punch without Sub, as you are able to catch Heatran on the switch as well as other Steels. You lose less assurance and you have to be cautious, but it prevents you from having to forgo valuable coverage which Mawile absolutely needs. I saw it quite a bit last gen and it worked out nicely because it can still effectively beat Heatran considering people will hard into it often.
Sucker Punch should be mandatory on every set. Even if Mawile invests in speed there are buttload of things that outspeed it. It is especially good on Substitute sets as it can let you preserve the sub if the opponent tries to break the sub with a faster threat and it lets Mawile to pull a sweep when it SD's. It's just too good to pass up and makes up for Mawile's poor speed which is it's otherwise biggest weakness.
Play Rough and Sucker Punch on every set, the other two moves are free game.
Play Rough and Sucker Punch on every set, the other two moves are free game.
mega beedrill is trash against celesteela same as mawile. no need for so much work on counters. celesteela with fire blast and modest ohkos both.
Mawile is running TPunch and enough too outspeed uninvested Skarmory, any move (sans Sucker Punch in the switching, of course)+ Thunder Punch kills Defensive Celesteela, so Defensive Celesteela is not really a counter (unless you get the lowest possible roll ever in both moves and Celesteela uses Protect, in which case you need some prior damage or rocks. If you use used TPunch on the switch, Mawile beats Celesteela even with a minimum damage roll and Protect recovery)
Against offensive Celesteela, Play Rough+Sucker Punch can KO after SR, and TPunch+Sucker Punch kills it, so it is a 50/50 if Celesteela goes for a set up move predicting the Sucker Punch, or an offensive move predicting an attack or SD. Also, Modest 252 Fire Blast does 90%-100% to MMawile, so is not even a guaranteed OHKO
tl;dr: Defensive Celeestela is not a counter to Mega Mawile. Offensive Celeestela can switch in and beat MMawile 1v1, but is a 50/50, so it shouldn't be considered a counter.
But yeah, Beedrill is hard walled by Celesteela, so it should never stay in
Would a Pheromosa and M-Beedrill core be good? There's been a bunch of talk about how Beedrill is just a crapper Phermosa, buuutttt... it seems like Pheromosa takes out a lot a lot of checks to Beedrill (Lando mainly) while Beedrill tackles the Tapus much more easily. There's definitely elements of weakening each others checks even if bug is a pretty crap STAB.
I don't think I'm going to be actively playing currently for a little while, so if anyone tries such a core I'd be interested to hear the results.
I don't think I'm going to be actively playing currently for a little while, so if anyone tries such a core I'd be interested to hear the results.
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