Gen 6 Mega Rayquaza

[Subject 18]

Gloating, so it's better to lose the integrity and competitiveness of the entire tier just for the sake of saying it's an "anything goes tier." You can't possibly be serious? I barely play Ubers, but even I can tell you right now you are beyond full of it. You're mentioning thing like Arceus and Xerneas but even those two have counterplay and reasonable means of being dealt with. The same can't be said with Mega Rayquaza.

You keep saying that unSTAB dragon move deal with Rayquaza, but what are they? Where are the relevant calcs/logs that show you bring a Pokemon that can reliably deal with it? I mean since you obviously know of ways to deal with Rayquaza, please enlighten us.

 

[xDesch]

If we could not talk about banning a poke 4 days after he has been released, that'd be great.

Seriously, is this really the place for all this? I hope everybody knows that this will just end up as a cancerous discussion like the shadow tag one, where all the arguments are either bad, simplified, not explained well enough, too long, explained in a super complex way, or just boring in general, where people will start to insult each other and I don't even know what not.

The only viable counterplay (if I may call it that) to Mega Rayquaza is running a lot of priority. He also puts a massive Opportunity cost on every single other mega evolution because then they would no longer have access to Mega Ray. As far as I've seen, most teams has a prankster T-Wave user (Klefki, Thundurus, Liepard), much priority (E-Killer, your own Rayquaza, Giratina-O) and so on. Basically it forces you on the offense. Otherwise, defensive things like Reflect Lugia, and some weird stuff like Aerodactly can also work, but needs some hefty Defog support to even have a chance of working. The last thing that could possible beat it, is "random" scarfers, preferably pokes that resist Normal, or some with just good bulk, like Xern, or Yveltal.

So yeah, you have to creative, for the time being. And if you don't like it, then you'll just have to complain to the mods until they decide to do something. But keep in mind, this is the 4th day of having access to this, and I think many people are rushing this a little bit too fast. As for me, I've thoroughly enjoyed using this poke so far.

 

[QueenOfHax]

He also puts a massive Opportunity cost on every single other mega evolution because then they would no longer have access to Mega Ray.

This is the part that bothers me. By merely existing, Mega Ray makes otherwise excellent megas such as Gengar (who almost got banned from ubers!), Diancie and Metagross flat out unviable.
If it wasn't for this incredibly stupid "one mega per battle" restriction, it would be a lot more balanced.

P.S. Of course I'm not suggesting to alter the game mechanics on PS. It's just an observation. Hopefully Gen 7 will get rid of this arbitrary limit.

 

[SuperWumbology]

This is the part that bothers me. By merely existing, Mega Ray makes otherwise excellent megas such as Gengar (who almost got banned from ubers!), Diancie and Metagross flat out unviable.
If it wasn't for this incredibly stupid "one mega per battle" restriction, it would be a lot more balanced.

If there were no Mega restrictions, this tier would be a shitfest, more so than it seems now. I don't see your point.

 

[QueenOfHax]

If there were no Mega restrictions, this tier would be a shitfest, more so than it seems now. I don't see your point.

"If everything is broken then nothing is".

 

[SuperWumbology]

"If everything is broken then nothing is".

Using Mega Gengar and Mega Ray on the same team is. More Megas are not the solution here.

 

[Tomb Deathwing]

perhaps....But Ray have become the spear lance of the things to come.

 

[Inspirited]

Gloating, so it's better to lose the integrity and competitiveness of the entire tier just for the sake of saying it's an "anything goes tier." You can't possibly be serious? I barely play Ubers, but even I can tell you right now you are beyond full of it. You're mentioning thing like Arceus and Xerneas but even those two have counterplay and reasonable means of being dealt with. The same can't be said with Mega Rayquaza.

You keep saying that unSTAB dragon move deal with Rayquaza, but what are they? Where are the relevant calcs/logs that show you bring a Pokemon that can reliably deal with it? I mean since you obviously know of ways to deal with Rayquaza, please enlighten us.

First, we need to know what "integrity" for this tier is. It is under discussion right now between Hugendugen and Fireburn I am sure, but as it stands right now, it is better to lose competitiveness than ban something just because of how much better it is than everything else. That is the way Ubers has always been, and unless this changes (which it very well could), this is the way things shall remain.

As for Ray causing the tier to lose competitiveness, I disagree. There are ways of dealing with it, my 2 teams right now all consist of mons that can hit Mega Ray into E-Killer (still does about 50% with E-Speed before Ascent drops) range or can KO it outright should it decide to set up. This is restricting sure, but it it does show that Mega Ray can be dealt with. Ubers has always been the most restrictive tier to build in, and to be fair, finding ways around these restrictions that work is what I have always liked about Ubers more than other tiers. I plan on finding other ways to deal with it including making a team with Shuca Room Dialga in order to check it. Sure it won't be easy, but it can be done. Restriction =/= uncompetitive in this case.

Edit: I also feel like this isn't the place to discuss this sorta thing, but I can see no better :[

 

[MrStallion]

Mega Rayquaza is balanced. You can and must use it too.

 

[Thugly Duckling]

Personally, I find it okay to start discussing MRay clauses/bans because lol, it's extremely obvious something needs to be done about it. To those of you who are avoiding the ban question just realize for 1) it has no counterplay, and 2) It is comparable to RBY Mewtwo. I'm not going to enter into detail for point 1 since above posts have addressed it, but how does the last point not hit home to you. RBY Ubers was summed up by who wins the speed tie on turn 1 in order to boost to +6 and freeze the opposing Mewtwo with Blizzard, and this is directly comparable to today's meta where you have to set-up your own Ray before your opponent in order to win. ORAS has so much more potential than that, and MRay alone has put a dead stop to Ubers' progression, and this tier's fanbase is going to dissipate reallly quickly if only one playstyle is viable. I know someone is gonna try to shoot me down with a "the meta isn't even a week old" argument, but for that person I just want to remind you that what has been come up with already is Magnet Rise Klefki (dies to fire) and Defensive Aerodactyl (dies to any boosted Dragon STAB or Draco Meteor); but if you can come up with a fool-proof check to all of its sets that suffers zero opportunity cost, let me know. If you really think Ray has a chance to avoid some sort of ban/clause, you must not know what competitive is or are incredibly stupid to not realize Ubers is no longer a banlist. It's time for change.

 

[Wargreymon]

Well, this is the mega Rayquaza thread. It's pretty much the best place to discuss anything about Rayquaza and that certainly includes its presence in the only tier it's allowed in. If you talk about this anywhere else you'll more than likely be directed here, so until the inevitable suspect test thread we might as well discuss it here.

See the thing is, ubers is full of broken crap that limits team building. However, this is on another level entirely. This limits building to a phenomenal extent and puts you in a position where if you don't use it you're immediately at a disadvantage. It's unhealthy from a team building aspect and it's unhealthy from an opportunity cost aspect (because it makes every other mega obsolete unless you want to be a special snowflake). Seriously, give me ONE good reason why I should use any other mega.
I don't know, I haven't played enough ubers yet to formulate a decent opinion, but right now it just seems like it brings new meaning to the phrase "unhealthy for the meta". I definitely don't see it staying in the long run.

 

[EmblemLord]

How would you ban it though? I don't think this is as simple as banning a Mega-Stone or Ability due to Mega-Ray's unique mechanics. The least complex method is banning the move Dragon Ascent, but this also affects normal Rayquaza as mentioned earlier. I'd also rather see an outright ban instead of artificial limitations that change its intended design (Mega evolving without a Stone).

 

[FlyingIsOP]

Question. if it does end up getting banned and had Mega Gengar been banned too, would another tier be created on top of Ubers?

 

[Tomb Deathwing]

I think they withdraw M-gengar ban at the last minute poll.

 

[Inspirited]

Personally, I find it okay to start discussing MRay clauses/bans because lol, it's extremely obvious something needs to be done about it. To those of you who are avoiding the ban question just realize for 1) it has no counterplay, and 2) It is comparable to RBY Mewtwo. I'm not going to enter into detail for point 1 since above posts have addressed it, but how does the last point not hit home to you. RBY Ubers was summed up by who wins the the speed tie on turn 1 in order to boost to +6 and freeze the opposing Mewtwo with Blizzard, and this is directly comparable to today's meta where you have to set-up your own Ray before your opponent in order to win. ORAS has so much more potential than that, and MRay alone has put a dead stop to Uber's progression, and this tier's fanbase is going to dissipate reallly quickly if only one playstyle is viable.

I am sorry, but that is not the way RBY Ubers is played. You would go to chansey and threaten Mewtwo with Twave, then go to Eggy, another Explosion user, or Mew to threaten it from there. I have limited experience with RBY Ubers but in the few games I have played, what you are describing is not the case. (It is a very playable meta imo)

That is beside the point though. We have had metas where Hyper Offense has dominated before and hardly anyone batted an eye at it. B2W2 was a meta driven by HO for example, stall and balance existed sure, but they weren't near as dominant. Some people are already coming up with decent Stall teams for ORAS, so not all hope is lost here.

I know someone is gonna try to shoot me down with a "the meta isn't even a week old" argument, but for that person I just want to remind you that what has been come up with already is Magnet Rise Klefki (dies to fire) and Defensive Aerodactyl (dies to any boosted Dragon STAB or Draco Meteor); but if you can come up with a fool-proof check to all of its sets that suffers zero opportunity cost, let me know. If you really think Ray has a chance to avoid some sort of ban/clause, you must not know what competitive is or are incredibly stupid to not realize Ubers is no longer a banlist. It's time for change.

My post above covers this:

First, we need to know what "integrity" for this tier is. It is under discussion right now between Hugendugen and Fireburn I am sure, but as it stands right now, it is better to lose competitiveness than ban something just because of how much better it is than everything else. That is the way Ubers has always been, and unless this changes (which it very well could), this is the way things shall remain.

As for Ray causing the tier to lose competitiveness, I disagree. There are ways of dealing with it, my 2 teams right now all consist of mons that can hit Mega Ray into E-Killer (still does about 50% with E-Speed before Ascent drops) range or can KO it outright should it decide to set up. This is restricting sure, but it it does show that Mega Ray can be dealt with. Ubers has always been the most restrictive tier to build in, and to be fair, finding ways around these restrictions that work is what I have always liked about Ubers more than other tiers. I plan on finding other ways to deal with it including making a team with Shuca Room Dialga in order to check it. Sure it won't be easy, but it can be done. Restriction =/= uncompetitive in this case.

Question. if it does end up getting banned and had Mega Gengar been banned too, would another tier be created on top of Ubers?

Na, this has been discussed before, and the consensus was no there won't be. People can play street mons with there own set of rules if they would like to use a banned something. Smogon isn't doesn't rule Pokemon remember.

 

[Farpafraf]

Holy Arceus, Mega_Rayquaza is Mega_uber.
In the next game we are getting Lord_Arceus with geomancy.

 

[SuperWumbology]

How would you ban it though? I don't think this is as simple as banning a Mega-Stone or Ability due to Mega-Ray's unique mechanics. The least complex method is banning the move Dragon Ascent, but this also affects normal Rayquaza as mentioned earlier. I'd also rather see an outright ban instead of artificial limitations that change its intended design (Mega evolving without a Stone).

But banning the form would make the method of using it banned as well, therefore banning Dragon Ascent. Besides, if we do ban Mega Ray as a whole, people would just think they're hot shit and demand a PDon suspect test, and so on. I think making a clause for this would be the best solution, though it would take some time to figure out how any suspect would be taken care of since we're reforming our tiering system.

Edit: This is hypothetical, so pls don't think that this is the absolute outcome.

 

[JSteele]

Why is everybody only referring to the SD LO set?

Ive been using DD with Lum Berry and its been working wonders, 2hko'ing everything after a boost (everything barring Multiscale + phazing by Lugia), and also the berry gives a pretty easy set up opportunity, as everybody and their mother goes for the burn or the para.

But id like to know if the set im using doesnt reach Ray's potential.

 

[JebusChrist]

Banning something for being overcentralizing or overpowered just makes Ubers into OU 2.0. There is NOTHING "uncompetitive" about Mega Rayquaza, just like there is nothing uncompetitive about GeoXern, ScarfOgre, EKiller, etc. Overcentralization and overpoweredness are NOT grounds for a ban in Ubers, and the fact that people are even discussing banning it is extremely disappointing.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I am sorry, but that is not the way RBY Ubers is played. You would go to chansey and threaten Mewtwo with Twave, then go to Eggy, another Explosion user, or Mew to threaten it from there. I have limited experience with RBY Ubers but in the few games I have played, what you are describing is not the case. (It is a very playable meta imo)

Electrode outspeeds, can T-Wave, use Light Screen and/or Explosion. 4th move filler or Thunder doesn't matter.

On a side note, Ray has to use DA to Mega evolve so you will always be facing a -1 defenses Mega Ray. If he goes to a boosting move like DD/SD then he will have to use DA to Mega evolve at some point as well.

 

[JSteele]

On a side note, Ray has to use DA to Mega evolve so you will always be facing a -1 defenses Mega Ray. If he goes to a boosting move like DD/SD then he will have to use DA to Mega evolve at some point as well.

Thats not how it works...
Thats not how any of this works...

 

[jackm]

On a side note, Ray has to use DA to Mega evolve so you will always be facing a -1 defenses Mega Ray. If he goes to a boosting move like DD/SD then he will have to use DA to Mega evolve at some point as well.

I don't believe this is how it is implemented on Showdown. I'm pretty sure you just have to run Ascent to be able to MEvo.

[EDIT]: Ninja'd

 

[EmblemLord]

You Mega Evolve by clicking the button just like any other Mega. You don't have to use Dragon Ascent.

 

[naturalstupidity]

I'm not terribly knowledgeable about Ubers in general, but I guess I'll throw in my two cents.

Perhaps it's because I'm from the lower tiers mainly, but I've never really understood why the "Ubers sentiment" influences people's decision making so much. Competitive Pokemon, including Ubers, is a game. People play it to have fun. Ubers was established as an "anything goes" format because people thought that a hypercentralized metagame would be fun to play. In lower tiers, if something is making the metagame not fun to play, it's banned. It's all done to make the game as fun as possible. Ubers is significantly tighter about bans due to why it was established, I get that, but if something so laughably overpowered and overcentralizing were to come along that it was making the metagame not fun, I see no reason why it ought not be banned.

Ubers is a game like the rest of Pokemon, and the only reason people play it is because they find it fun. So, I really don't think the issue here is "would banning Mega Rayquaza go with or against the idea of Ubers?", but rather "Do I like playing a tier dominated by Mega Rayquaza?" If the answer to that question is "no" for the majority of people, then I feel like it should be banned.

I haven't played Ubers since mid-XY, so I really can't form an opinion on this matter, but just looking at the facts I'd say that Mega Rayquaza is just too damn good and ought to be banned. I can't see how a metagame in which you're forced to use half your teamslots on contrived methods to soft check Rayquaza could be fun.

 

[Fireburn]

Casual reminder that this isn't the place for tiering discussion, thanks! :]