Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)

[Sanger Zonvolt]

This is the problem. People don't want to run new shit. They just wanna use the same boring predictable things and when they see a new poke that threatens their boring predictable play style they want to get rid of it. I've already admitted that mega mence is powerful but thats no reason for it to be banned.

It's not that people don't want to be creative, it's that often times the cost of creativity is overall effectiveness. What does Hidden Power Ice on Rotom W hit that isn't already blown away by STAB Hydro Pump? Garchomp, D-Nite...I think that's it (unless you count M-Sceptile who will destroy it regardless). In gen V when half of OU consisted of Dragons, this would have been fine, but in this gen Rather than have moves with redundant coverage, we'd like our mons to be able to cover as much as possible with 4 moves. Similarly, we don't like running scarfs on Mons with as much speed as Greninja because at the cost of revenge killing 1 mon, you lose both power and the ability to switch moves. That's not to say we don't like creativity; we have a thread devoted to letting people post new, creative and underrated sets. However, there's a fine line between a creative set and a lure, and lures are generally very bad on the ladder because if your opponent doesn't use what you're trying to lure out,

With the whole several checks argument though my team does have 3 checks to it, I did not make it specifically to check mence, it just so happens that it does decent against it if I play right.

As others mentioned, the replay was not good. Why would your opponent not Volt Switch on Skarmory? Why would your opponent lock himself into HP Fire when you probably have Thunderbolt? The opponent basically handed you a free set-up turn. The video does nothing to showcase Mega Salamence at all. If you're going to post videos, you'll need evidence from much higher up on the ladder.

And I'm obviously not going to switch my charziard into a mega mence and lose one of my win conditions and no way proves that mence is broken or deserves a ban.

I think you missed the original point. The point is that the time may come when you give the MegaMence user 1 free turn simply because the user makes 1 good prediction, and at that point you'll see how terrifying it is after it gets that free turn. If a Mega Zard X gets 1 free turn, there are still reasonable ways to revenge kill it and recover. Mence is far less forgiving in that regard.

 

[Jukain]

I'm sorry, but there probably would be some discussion in this thread if everyones attitutude to MegaMence wasnt such a mob mentality one. I believe Norne pointed it out as well, but any chance for a serious discussion on MegaMence's suspect status was killed when the one person who believes that MegaMence is OK for OU in this thread was made out to be an incompetent idiot by multiple people. Granted 56k may not have presented their arguement in the best manner, but nobody should be ridiculed for posting their opinion. If I thought that MegaMence deserved a suspect in maybe 3-4 weeks due to the fact that the meta may settle and develop in that time rather than a quickban I personally wouldnt want to post about it because about 3-5 people would jump onto me straight away with hilarious reaction gifs and one liner 'haha ur a retard' posts. By the way, lots of the arguments supporting MegaMence getting a quickban are poorly constructed and pretty much have no substance, but I see nobody pointing those out.

Haven't played enough ORAS yet to make my mind up on whether or not MegaMence should be quickbanned or not, but I will agree with the circlejerk in this thread that MegaMence is a problem and probably should go sooner rather than later. Would personally prefer for it to be suspected unless a quickban is nessecary to ensure stability in an ongoing / upcoming major tournament

This being done affects SPL, which starts January 1.

 

[trikx_insane]

This is the problem. People don't want to run new shit. They just wanna use the same boring predictable things and when they see a new poke that threatens their boring predictable play style they want to get rid of it. I've already admitted that mega mence is powerful but thats no reason for it to be banned.

With the whole several checks argument though my team does have 3 checks to it, I did not make it specifically to check mence, it just so happens that it does decent against it if I play right.

And I'm obviously not going to switch my charziard into a mega mence and lose one of my win conditions and no way proves that mence is broken or deserves a ban.

Absolutely absurd, a completely false statement made by you. I can repeat when Sanger Zonvolt said, that the overall cost of creativity is effectiveness. Allow me to make an analogy. It's like me using a Parental Bond Mega-Khang with Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball because I think it's good and can now check the Physical Walls of Mega-Khang like Ferrothorn and Skarmory or hit Ghost Types without worrying for Sucker Punch failing with ease, but the drawbacks are that, now it can't abuse it's absurd High Attack stat, abuse STAB Fake Out, Return, Double-Edge, etc, or abuse it's priorty move Sucker Punch, and it's Sp.Atk base stat sucks. We don't hold back from new shit and I can prove this by saying, hence we have a thread called "Creative and Underrated Sets: ORAS Edition (NO SHITTY GIMMICKS)" or even "Creative / Underrated Sets Thread ( Read the thread, NO SHITTY GIMMICKS )". In there, I have seen things, ranging from Knock Off Gengar, Sub PoP Victini, Toxic/Rock Tomb Medicham, Lure Sharp, Sp.Def Talonflame, Power Herb Heatran, Memento Latios, SubEnd Keldeo, etc. all of which use nice creative ideas but still manage to use the effective and most viable points/parts of a mon'. We don't back away from creativity but if we're forced to use creative and never-seen before innovation that are ineffective for the meta and only effective or specific to counter/check one mon' then there's your problem. That's what Mega-Mence forces you to do, running HP Ice Lando-T, HP Ice Zapdos, HP Ice Rotom-W, etc; wasting a moveslot on your mon' just for Mega-Mence and wasting potential of a mon'. Mega-Mence is basically the meta.

 

[DaVolterbomb]

MMence is borked. Amazing defenses to block Ice type moves, access to recovery, Strong Flying type attacks destroy the meta, and if that doesn't work he has access to amazing coverage like EQ, Fire Blast, Outrage, etc.

It has atleast 5 sets, all viable sets that cripple very good teams. Sub set destroys WoW users, DDance destroys everything else, all the other sets are not cared for.

So, as i said, there has been over 9,000 petitions around 250 petitions to get this thing banned. All I'm asking for is this thing to be banned cause its way too good for ou and it is so easy to win with.

Get the thread ready, get the thing banned, and we will all be happy that we finally have a balanced meta.

-Volter

 

[preserve]

I agree if someone uses shitty un-effective pokemon it's stupid, no matter how creative it is. But if people use creative pokemon / teams that are effective, then its good. That rant on nobody wanting to be creative was primary in direct response to the person I was replying too as he said "no one wants to use other stuff" or something along those lines.

But my whole point is that if you know what kind of teams people are using (mostly mege mence + magnezone) you can try to find a weakness in that core. If you get a free switch into charizard X on a magnezone, it's easy set-up fodder and can possibly sweep or severely weaken your opponents team. This is one example.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I agree if someone uses shitty un-effective pokemon it's stupid, no matter how creative it is. But if people use creative pokemon / teams that are effective, then its good. That rant on nobody wanting to be creative was primary in direct response to the person I was replying too as he said "no one wants to use other stuff" or something along those lines.

But my whole point is that if you know what kind of teams people are using (mostly mege mence + magnezone) you can try to find a weakness in that core. If you get a free switch into charizard X on a magnezone, it's easy set-up fodder and can possibly sweep or severely weaken your opponents team. This is one example.

I really don't want to come off in any manner other than helpful here, but, you can't be serious. . .

So, since I know the team I need to prepare for it? Alright, so, in order for me to get anywhere in OU, I have to adapt not only to one Pokemon, but to an entire team? You have explained, yourself, what makes this thing over centralizing.

 

[theDSC]

This is the problem. People don't want to run new shit. They just wanna use the same boring predictable things and when they see a new poke that threatens their boring predictable play style they want to get rid of it. I've already admitted that mega mence is powerful but thats no reason for it to be banned.

With the whole several checks argument though my team does have 3 checks to it, I did not make it specifically to check mence, it just so happens that it does decent against it if I play right.

And I'm obviously not going to switch my charziard into a mega mence and lose one of my win conditions and no way proves that mence is broken or deserves a ban.

Have you been playing ORAS OU in that one month? Because I can tell you that Mega Salamence was one of the most used Mega evolutions on teams. People know how powerful it is, that's the reason why they're using it.

your other argument doesn't justify it as being undeserving of a ban either. Just because you're playing right and making right decisions has nothing to do with the power of a certain pokemon. Everything can essentially be taken down by playing right, it only means your prediction is better than the other player. This still doesn't change the fact that Mega Salamence is broken with all its qualities.

 

[preserve]

I really don't want to come off in any manner other than helpful here, but, you can't be serious. . .

So, since I know the team I need to prepare for it? Alright, so, in order for me to get anywhere in OU, I have to adapt not only to one Pokemon, but to an entire team? You have explained, yourself, what makes this thing over centralizing.

Not if that team can do good against the rest of the meta. As I mentioned before, the team I used in the replay wasn't specifically used to counter mega mence, it just so happens to do decent against it. And it does fairly well against other teams from my experience.

Have you been playing ORAS OU in that one month? Because I can tell you that Mega Salamence was one of the most used Mega evolutions on teams. People know how powerful it is, that's the reason why they're using it.

I have played and I'm well aware of how often it was used.

your other argument doesn't justify it as being undeserving of a ban either. Just because you're playing right and making right decisions has nothing to do with the power of a certain pokemon. Everything can essentially be taken down by playing right, it only means your prediction is better than the other player. This still doesn't change the fact that Mega Salamence is broken with all its qualities.

I fundamentally disagree with this and it seems like arguing about this is useless now as a majority of the people have a different view of the meta than I do. If you play right and find a way around strong pokemon, you deserve to win.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Not if that team can do good against the rest of the meta. As I mentioned before, the team I used in the replay wasn't specifically used to counter mega mence, it just so happens to do decent against it. And it does fairly well against other teams from my experience.

Ah, so because your team doesn't get destroyed by Mega Mence it must not be broken. Well, my team doesn't get destroyed by Lugia, so let's bring it to OU. Both those statements are absolutely absurd. Do you really think 200+ people here are simply complaining because they can't deal with Mega Mence? Or do you at all think it may be because this thing is incredibly broken?

I can work my way around Mega Mence as well, but that's because I have to plan my moves several turns in advance. In short, I know what I'm doing. The problem is, that doesn't mean the person I'm facing is equally as well versed as I. Now, I know what you're thinking, that's no reason for it to go, ease of use is no means for a ban. We'd agree, but that's where our agreements end.

However, it's insane bulk, which has been addressed far too many times to count, obnoxious power, intimidate, speed and ability to set up on pretty much anything is outright ridiculous. When an adamant 252 x4 SE STAB attack can't OHKO despite being LO'd, there's a problem, and it's not the Pokemon using Ice Shard.
I have been playing OU for the past two days it has been up since the crash, and since about 200 on the ladder it's been Mega Mence after Mega Mence. Some users more competent than others, while some have little to no idea what they are doing and frankly shouldn't be there. It's being used for a reason, and it's at the top of the ladder for a reason. It's checks, CHECKS not counters, are few and far between, and aren't Pokemon that can be easily fit onto all teams. It limits team building more than I believe any Pokemon has ever done, and it has one attacking move 80% of the time. I have no idea how you could possibly defend this thing.

 

[casklord]

Guys I have decided that this discussion should go on no futher. Mega mence is obviously too broken for the ou tier and deserves to be banned without needing a suspect. If a suspect was done it would obviously be banned. Anyone who disagrees is wrong. Anyone who tries to convince someone who disagrees is wasting their time because they are obviously not using logic to make their decision.

Peace.

 

[DaVolterbomb]

Guys I have decided that this discussion should go on no futher. Mega mence is obviously too broken for the ou tier and deserves to be banned without needing a suspect. If a suspect was done it would obviously be banned. Anyone who disagrees is wrong. Anyone who tries to convince someone who disagrees is wasting their time because they are obviously not using logic to make their decision.

Peace.

Agreed. Before the mods come in and say that you added nothing to discussion, this is a goddamn petition.
When 5 people want this not to be banned and 200 do, i think we have a clear answer.
Thats just me, though. Lets get this thing out, this thread locked, and i want it to suffer in Ubers where it will be the worse mega alive.

 

[Singlex]

Thing with MegaMence is, every team has to be prepared for it. You need one Pokémon that can wall it, which is near impossible due to it's versatility, and another one to Revenge Kill, which essentially means that you have to sack one Pokémon, and run one specific slot for Mamoswine/Sneasel Ice Shard just for megamence, which can also fail if it's a substitute set. In reality, there's no real counter to MegaMence, similliar to MegaLuke, and it hits harder than Mega Kangaskhan. Mega Salamence makes the metagame overcentralized with teams built specifically to deal with it, which means it's hardly prepared for other threats in the meta, and it's difficult to build a balanced team.

In conclusion, I'd advise for a MegaMence quickban.

 

[Ugo Eze]

Mega salamace reminds me of mega lucairo being able to attack as a special attacker or physical attacker. As a special attacker it has access to move like hyper voice, dragon pulse, draco meteor, fire blast, flame thrower, hydro pump and various hidden power. As a physical attacker it has access to dragon dance, trash, return, double edge, outrage, dragon claw, dragon rush, iron head, iron tail, thunder fang, fire fang, zen headbutt, brick break, aqua tail, earthquake and stone edge. Making it very versatile. With its added bulk ice shard will not kill it.

 

[Ayman]

Pretty much everything to be said has been said about him, but i just want to add that i think he's not just your run of the mill M-Mawile broken, he's on par, infact in my opinion, more broken than Mega Kangaskhan. Seriously, think about it. He has way more bulk, specially with intimidate, doesnt care about status thanks to Substitute and Refresh, has reliable recovery in Roost which can also be exploited to mitigate his flying weaknesses, and can also utilize a very respectable 120 special attack. This thing just keeps adapting to the meta, in ways that Mega Kangaskhan couldnt even dream about. He can even play around his so-called 'checks' and beat them 1v1. Honestly the only thing Kanga has over him is priority, and even then, Kanga's priority is situational (Fake Out and Sucker Punch). I've argued against every single ban barring Kanga and Gengar, and even then, I've made arguments in their favour. Even Aegislash and M-Luke dont come close to him. Quickbanning him is a no-brainer. Seriously just get this thing out of the meta so we can all actually start playing properly.

 

[hithere44]

Preserve's creativity argument or run "new shit argument" does not make sense to me at all. How does keeping a centralizing threat like Mega Salamence promote creativity? If we keep this guy everybody will be forced to run their own Mence alongside a Rhyperior, Zapdos, Heatran, P2, Klefki, Scarfed Noivern and Scarf Ninja in an attempt to beat other mence. Sorry bud but if you want to see a creative filled tier, you should remove the mon that transcends everything.

 

[HUARGH]

Normally I just lurk here but reading through this thread made me quite angry. It started off well but then I saw - from Contributors no less - arguments being made against quickbanning megamence and calling previous post unsubstantiated bitching or whatever language was used.

I'm not going to repeat arguments for the quickbanning as that has already been done to a great extent, so what I'd like to say is that megamence is stronger than many pokemon that have been banned to uber.

I do realize few people are for keeping it in the meta and instead have issues with the quickban but I really wonder what we can gain from a suspect test. It seems like an utter waste of time.

 

[Flamer]

This may seem a bit weird but Id like to ask the OU council their opinions on the matter of Salamence's brokeness. Clearly, if you are not adverse to suspecting this, there must be some misconsensus you have for it not straight out quickbanning it. Haunter gr8astard McMeghan M Dragon Aldaron

As for my thoughts on the matter, I feel mence is straight broken, no two ways about it. The fact that the entire meta has been shaped around it to the point where Greninjas are running scarf, Keldeo cannot run specs, Rotom runs 180 SpAtk and more is testament to how much it defines what you do. It has no issue running through Stall, Balance or Offense alike and even when you have multiple checks, you can still lose outright. That wasnt even mentioning it's veratility, even with Sub DD, its broken, but thanks to it's 'balanced' stats, it has no issue in running plenty of other sets to break whatever stands in it's way.

Oh, and those saying it promotes 'creativity' or whatever you call it, creativity means that you arent pidgeonholed into using particular mons, rather, you can choose from a wide range of mons without being completely destroyed by a big threat.

With all that said, Im all for a straight quick-ban but please do it soon, Id rather not keep this mon in the meta any longer than it has to be.

 

[Nix_Hex]

Stop asking for the thread to be closed.
It will be closed in due time. One line posts aren't allowed anyway, so what makes you think that a one liner demanding a quick ban and this thread to be closed is acceptable?

 

[Eik00c]

By this point, everything that was needed to be said has been said. Everyone know's of its ridiculous defenses, its insane attack, and its resistances to most priority. Hell, it can live Ice Shard at full. As said by a multitude of people, there is literally no reason to keep Mega Mence in OU; how does one justify its staying in the tier?

This is the problem. People don't want to run new shit. They just wanna use the same boring predictable things and when they see a new poke that threatens their boring predictable play style they want to get rid of it. I've already admitted that mega mence is powerful but thats no reason for it to be banned.

Smogon doesn't ban mons because they're powerful, they're banned for overcentralizing the metagame. For the sake of not repeating what others have said, I'll just say this: Teams may need to carry checks and/or counters to certain mons that stop there team cold (i.e. I have Heracross so I need to carry a birdspam check), but if you find yourself adding a counter to a mon like Mega Mence (who has no counters) to every team you create, then there's obviously something wrong with it.

With that being said, there's only one solution to this problem: quickban that shit outta here.

 

[Kurona]

Out of curiosity, when will the thread be closed and the results given out? Or is it dependent on how long it takes to read through the thread?

 

[Nix_Hex]

Out of curiosity, when will the thread be closed and the results given out? Or is it dependent on how long it takes to read through the thread?

Up to the council, really. I'd like everyone to chill out and rest assured that unlike what Facebook crybabies will have you believe, the council DOES listen to the community, hence why the thread was made. They are a reasonable group with functioning brains and will not defy the unanimous wishes of hundreds of users.

 

[SilverPT]

They indeed have functioning brains, but I don't know what went through their heads to even consider to suspect test and open a thread (did someone even asked about this?) about something that was deemed broken from the start. And it's not like we need anymore days to test this blitzkrieg...

 

[56k]

Alright I'll do my best to reorganize my thoughts and come up with a more outlined argument. I don't appreciate being called retarded or trolling, when almost everything I say gets chopped up into pieces out of context. Or even better it just comes down to a subjective disagreement "it's overpowered" "no it's not" and immediately get insulted. Come on people

1. Is it overcentralizing?
At the moment it is probably the best offensive megamon to use. But why is it the best? Straightforwardly, because there are no alternatives for offensive teams to use. Therefore most people are running it and everyone needs a counter or multiple checks.

2. Everything at Salamence's level is already in ubers
Kangaskhan's ability adds roughly the same amount of damage to its attacks that Salamences aerialate does. Lucario's adaptability does much the same. And mawile hits even harder. All 4 of those pokemon hit awfully hard even unboosted. Close, but not at the same level, are gallade heracross and pinsir which are the next best things for offense to use (and are actually better in a handful of situations, certainly viable choices) but aren't as immediately threatening as the above four. Blaziken is a bit of a different beast and doesn't hit as hard (immediately) but typically boosts easily and is by no means weak unboosted. Other things like skymin or aegislash have their own reasons to being voted uber before.

3. Therefore Salamence belongs in ubers like the above pokemon
This is where I just completely and fundamentally disagree. I've gotten insulted for saying this but I very strongly believe that all the of the ubers (except cover legends) actually interact with eachother very well and keep eachother at bay. A completely reopened (or almost completely) OU tier would be a complete mixed bag and Salamence would no longer be a centralizing threat



It is completely impossible to foresee the interplay that all the so called "broken" things would have between each other.

Unleashing them would "solve the overcentralized Salamence" problem which is at least one point that I have that can't really be denied. Showdown has never seen what an unlocked ORAS tier would look like. All we have is Salamence alone being the dominant offensive threat. Everything would be completely scrambled around and I can completely guarantee that there would be no single centralizing force.



"We don't drop things from ubers just to balance out one overpowered threat"
This misinterpretation gets posted over and over. The fact that Salamence would get a couple new checks is just completely a side effect of the main point I'm trying to make. I'M NOT ADVOCATING THAT WE NEED OLD UBERS TO HELP FIGHT SALAMENCE.

What I am saying is that we should drop just about everything back into OU to examine it, experience it, and try to redefine our feelings on what "broken" even means anymore. Terms like "overpowered" and "skill-less" get thrown around far too loosely and it's because the prevailing mindset around here is that we need to preserve some sort of defensive balance and recreate a gen3/4/5 meta of easy switch ins and effortless pivoting.

Instead I think the modern pokemon game is supposed to suppress and punish any idea that you can get a rotom/alomola/landorus in for free every time and pivot out for free momentum. Wallbreakers like deoxys and lucario around every corner would kill off that sort of thing. I think that if you actually want a pivot or counter for something in OU then you actually have to dedicate a teamslot to it and have something that is legitimately bulky like slowbro or megascizor.

The fact that Rotom-W can't always break Salamence's subs is a ridiculous complaint. Maybe you should be punished for it? Maybe you're just not supposed to be able to run full HP and defense investment and switch around for free? You have to make a choice now; can break subs but is not bulky, or bulky switches in a lot but can't break subs.

That is just one example of trying to play the old game, but it also applies to things like "I should be able to use specs keldeo" and "I should be able to use landorus and not get set up on" and "I should be able defensively handle Salamence without actually running bulky things on my team"

Why should you be able to do any of those things? Because it worked after everything stronger than Pinsir was banned? Because you want to have a "defensive core" without actually making any sacrifice at all on your offensive capabilities? Now you get punished for running "bulky" crap like Lati@s, Rotom, Mew.

Hilariously, with mence around, stall is actually being well rewarded for making the sacrifice on offense and going safe with skarmories, heatrans, porgyon, slowbro, whatever.



"We could never be covered for everything if ubers was reopened! Stall would die and everything would be 50/50s"
This is just not true at all. Just because a horde of previously uber megas would be running around doesn't mean various defensive staples like heatran, slowbro, chansey, sableye, and ferrothorn would not be doing their jobs. And just because there would be more threats to worry about DOES NOT MEAN you would suddenly have no salamence checks on your team. For example in a completely reoppened tier you might have greninja, scarf genesect, and thundurus all working together to deal with various threats. Those 3 alone have all kinds of CHECK answers to mence, mawile, lucario, and so on. Scarf ninja could even deal with boosted blaziken and mence both too.

Did you notice that mamoswine not only helps against mence but seriously hurts mawile and aegislash both? Did you notice that genesect will always get the sp.atk boost against salamence and it also resists both of mawiles STABs? How about the new sabeleye fucking with some lucario and salamence sets both? Mega slowbro with ice beam/fireblast/scald both does very well against mence and mawile and blaziken. Not to mention all the prankster users that are helpful against everything.

Did you notice that not only has the offensive power level increased but defensive mons have gotten better as well?

Slowbro gets all of calm mind, iron defense, amnesia, and has various EV options. Ghosts like sabeleye and aegislash are fucking great. Charizard-X is amazing at what he does. Altaria is a completey underrated defensive beast. Porygon2 is tracing all kinds of intimdates and proteans. Even sweepers are getting enough "bulk" to survive a hit in a pinch, like gallade and metagross.

Stall wouldn't die lol it'd evolve like it always has. Stall is by far my favorite playstyle and I would still love to see everything from mawile to salamence to genesect back in the tier.



"They were banned for a reason why bring them back? It's backward progress."
Because many of the people who voted for banning the original suspects like lucario and deoxys were doing so with a gen5 mentality still fresh in their minds. By now everyone has experienced just how offensive gen6 has become and it's been shocking, much the same as the original gen4 power up. I think everyone was trying to preserve a game where things as questionably weak as zapdos and latias should actually be able to get free switch ins. Players want to have speed AND power AND pivot ability AND enough bulk to handle the meta. Lol that's so screwy, if you want to have any defensive answers at all to the meta then you have to pay a price somewhere. You use skarm instead of landorus and you use sylveon instead of clefable and you use defensive ttar instead of terrakion.

Meanwhile, not only would defense go through its own evolutions but offense would be completely revitalized and have all kinds of toys to use instead of just 1.




This:

That is infinitely better than whatever stale OU game you're trying to preserve by banning things:

tl;dr

1. Mence is overcentralizing because there are no other good options and his teammates don't need to worry about previous ubers.
2. Switching in should be difficult to do. You shouldn't be able to run something that is barely bulky enough against the meta and is also powerful and fast.
3. Only stall teams should be capable of switching against the top threats.
4. Stall and even bulky offense would have defensive answers in a reopened OU
5. No one can say what the meta would even look like. It might surprise everyone and be better than you expect
6. "Nothing can switch into kangaskhan/deoxys/xxxxx" -- this is part of the game. Stall teams scout the moves or status and offense teams pressure it.
7. Please re-evaluate everything. It's not a waste of time if it's exciting, challenging, fun, and certainly worthwhile

If nothing will ever be retested then just ban mence because it is better than everything else by too large of a margin. But I very strongly think that completely (or almost completely) reopening ubers is a better choice.

 

[Aldaron]

This may seem a bit weird but Id like to ask the OU council their opinions on the matter of Salamence's brokeness. Clearly, if you are not adverse to suspecting this, there must be some misconsensus you have for it not straight out quickbanning it. Haunter gr8astard McMeghan M Dragon Aldaron

Broken as all holy-fuck and needs to be quick-banned ASAP.

 

[Alexey]

3. Therefore Salamence belongs in ubers like the above pokemon
This is where I just completely and fundamentally disagree. I've gotten insulted for saying this but I very strongly believe that all the of the ubers (except cover legends) actually interact with eachother very well and keep eachother at bay. A completely reopened (or almost completely) OU tier would be a complete mixed bag and Salamence would no longer be a centralizing threat

I don't mean to insult you, but this makes no sense whatsoever. There is no point in moving all the Ubers to OU to make OU balanced because there is already a playable banlist-turned-tier, Ubers. If we assume arguendo that there is merit to moving borked things down to check other borked things, we end up finding ourselves in an endless cycle of moving borked Pokemon down in tiers in order to check other borked (within each respective tier) Pokemon.
Everything else that I could respond was already covered beforehand in previous posts, so I don't wish to repeat what everyone here said 300 times.