Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)

[Chaoswalker]

Wait, would the ban be for Salamence or Salamencite?

 

[Kurona]

Wait, would the ban be for Salamence or Salamencite?

Salamenceite; base Salamence isn't broken in the same way Mega Lucario was but Base Lucario isn't. You can still use it in OU as long as it's not holding it's Mega Stone.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

I'm in agreement with most everyone here that Mega-mence isn't at all healthy for the tier, and it can steamroll full health teams given ~1 free turn and minimal team support. So, I'll add my two cents just for fun.

For some reason, when people started listing obscure 'counters' it reminded me of the whole baton pass nonsense that was going on way back in the day, with people listing useless suboptimal things like haze murkrow/quagsire/greninja/gengar to 'beat' baton pass. This is kind of the same thing where you're running something like scarfed greninja and banded weavile to deal with only one threat, which isn't healthy at all. The tier is already halfway bent over itself just to deal with mega-mence, where you have pokemon and movesets used almost exclusively for mega salamence (Sp Atk Rotom-W, Band Weavile, Scarf Noivern) that preform their intended purpose worse than if they were running 'proper' EVs (in noiverns case it shouldn't even be there), much like Haze quagsire had a completely wasted moveslot against any other setup sweeper. Are the pokemon that people are running to deal with Salamence completely useless? Not necessarily. Could they do their job much better if they didn't have to be tailored to not get wrecked by Salamence? Most definitely.

So, I'm putting my vote in for quick-ban

Chaoswalker I'd think it'd be for Salamencite, much like M-Kang was for Kangaskhanite

EDIT: Got beat to the punch

 

[Chaoswalker]

Salamenceite; base Salamence isn't broken in the same way Mega Lucario was but Base Lucario isn't. You can still use it in OU as long as it's not holding it's Mega Stone.

Just making sure. I recently noticed that the OU seems to only ban mega stones and keeps the base forms, but other tiers lost a bunch of pokemon like Gardevoir, Medicham, Manectric, etc.

 

[LZH14]

I have irrefutable proof of why Salamence is clearly not broken at all and should not be quickbanned

oh my god this is amazing

Food for Thought: Lets say Mega Mence was already banned. What reasons would you argue for its unbanning? I myself can't think of one. It can run any coverage, be Physical, special or mixed, break through almost all walls without even boosting, and has a good speed tier. There isn't anything the meta needs Mega Mence for. Its not needed to keep a playstyle viable or keep another threat in check. Just ban this thing already.

actually, going from the reverse, i guess you could argue that specially based ice attacks can check it but after 1 d-dance that doesn't actually apply barring scarf greninja and random things with focus sashes. i'm not actually sure if it keeps anything in particular in check except for opposing salamence i guess but it sure as hell plugged mega pinsir and everything lower than base 120 speed. it's niche is "fuck everything up in the history of ever" so oh well. maybe physically defensive arceus-fairy or something can counter this POS lol

 

[Kurona]

Just making sure. I recently noticed that the OU seems to only ban mega stones and keeps the base forms, but other tiers lost a bunch of pokemon like Gardevoir, Medicham, Manectric, etc.

That's not because the Mega Stone was banned.
For instance, Gardevoir. Used to be Gardevoir was UU and it's Mega Stone only was banned. That's because Mega Gardevoir wasn't good enough in the Aegis meta but was too good for UU, so BL the Mega Stone stayed.
But then Aegis left, and Mega Gardevoir became really good - and since using Mega Gardevoir means you're essentially using Gardevoir, Gardevoir itself got a lot of usage in OU and like everything else in OU, was banned from UU due to usage.

 

[pwnémon]

Without question mega mence should be banned IMO. It needs little support although some support can render it unstoppable (trappers, status healers, hazards) but you can slap it on any team and it will do work due to its power, bulk and speed . It has an extremely versatile movepool that allows it to blow past many of its usual checks with fighting, fire, water or ground coverage and can easily run draco meteor on a DD set to cripple or destroy common checks such as rotom and zapdos. It is incredibly centralizing with many ladder teams using and abusing it and makes the metagame infuriating to play due to its power. Its main offensive checks mamo and weavile are weak to common priority and have to be predictable with mence on the field while P2 arguably its best counter is vulnerable to knock off and due to the abundance of knock off users in OU this is a heavy drawback. Quick ban mega mence please!

 

[Arca10]

While Mega Salamence is obviously a force to be reckoned with, I don't think it warrants a quick ban for a few simple reasons. 1: Greninja is a very commonly used Pokemon in OU and a standard timid protean Greninja with ice beam outspeeds and 1 hits mega mence if it doesn't have a dragon dance under its belt. And even if it has a d dance, both of its stabs are easily walled by the common ou tanks/hazard setters that are Ferrothorn and Skarmory. If Mence is packing EQ, then one of those two steel types are immune and the other takes neutral damage, and Ferrothorn can EASILY heal from that if it's packing leech seed, and most do. I saw Mega Mence a fair bit in the ORAS OU format prior to the game's official release, and a few times since as well. It has given me no hassle except in random battle when I either was given no counter or my counter was beat before my opponent revealed their mega mence. Why did it give me no trouble? Because of the counters I named. So many people use those Pokemon even since before mega Mence was announced and while those are the most common, there are others as well. Here's an example from UU: Skill link Cloyster with focus sash and shell smash. If it gets the smash before Mence gets sent out, it outspeeds it easily. Otherwise just smash and spear; that's what the sash is there for, to make sure it gets the shell smash in without getting 1 shot. That's been a pretty standard Cloyster set for a long time. Mega Lopunny can fake out on the turn it mega evolves, then ice punch once it has its mega speed on turn 2. Mega Sceptile can hit with a STAB dragon move, mega sharpedo if it got a speed boost or two before mega evolving then strong jaw ice fang, etc. There are plenty of counters to Mega Mence that are plenty useful all around so that they aren't on one's team JUST to counter Salamence, both pre-existing and new, and the pre-existing ones I've named aren't being changed up for the sake of dealing with one new Mega. I say suspect test Mega Salamence since so many people think it's so OP, but I don't think a quick ban is necessary.

TL;DR: Greninja, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Mega Lopunny, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Sceptile, Cloyster, Weavile, anything with ice shard, etc. Plenty of defensive steel types to check Mence's STABs and some fast counters that can take it out with a strong ice attack, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some. All of which are commonly used, not just required on a team to deal with 1 new Mega. Suspect test, but don't quick ban Mega Salamence

I don't think any of the Pokemon you mention are actual counters. The only ones that can switch into an attack are Ferrothorn and Skarmory, both of which are easily killed with Fire Blast (and Skarmory is also broken by Hydro Pump). Greninja is OHKOd. It can only check if it's carrying an unbroken sash (not used) or a Choice Scarf (a niche set only used to check Mega Mence). I don't have a calc up, but Ferrothorn is pretty definitely at least 2HKOd by Fire Blast, as is Skarmory. Mega Lopunny is outsped and killed by a +1 MegaMence (if it DD's on your switch in), and I doubt the base form can switch into even an unboosted Return. Same for Mega Sceptile. Mega Sharpedo needs two Speed Boosts, and can only get them if it manages to double Protect. Cloyster might be able to switch into a DD and win, but only if there are no hazards out. Ice Shard users are checks, and most only check a weakened Mega Mence (iirc Adamant Mamoswine deals ~75%).

 

[Dustflier]

While Mega Salamence is obviously a force to be reckoned with, I don't think it warrants a quick ban for a few simple reasons. 1: Greninja is a very commonly used Pokemon in OU and a standard timid protean Greninja with ice beam outspeeds and 1 hits mega mence if it doesn't have a dragon dance under its belt. And even if it has a d dance, both of its stabs are easily walled by the common ou tanks/hazard setters that are Ferrothorn and Skarmory. If Mence is packing EQ, then one of those two steel types are immune and the other takes neutral damage, and Ferrothorn can EASILY heal from that if it's packing leech seed, and most do. I saw Mega Mence a fair bit in the ORAS OU format prior to the game's official release, and a few times since as well. It has given me no hassle except in random battle when I either was given no counter or my counter was beat before my opponent revealed their mega mence. Why did it give me no trouble? Because of the counters I named. So many people use those Pokemon even since before mega Mence was announced and while those are the most common, there are others as well. Here's an example from UU: Skill link Cloyster with focus sash and shell smash. If it gets the smash before Mence gets sent out, it outspeeds it easily. Otherwise just smash and spear; that's what the sash is there for, to make sure it gets the shell smash in without getting 1 shot. That's been a pretty standard Cloyster set for a long time. Mega Lopunny can fake out on the turn it mega evolves, then ice punch once it has its mega speed on turn 2. Mega Sceptile can hit with a STAB dragon move, mega sharpedo if it got a speed boost or two before mega evolving then strong jaw ice fang, etc. There are plenty of counters to Mega Mence that are plenty useful all around so that they aren't on one's team JUST to counter Salamence, both pre-existing and new, and the pre-existing ones I've named aren't being changed up for the sake of dealing with one new Mega. I say suspect test Mega Salamence since so many people think it's so OP, but I don't think a quick ban is necessary.

TL;DR: Greninja, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Mega Lopunny, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Sceptile, Cloyster, Weavile, anything with ice shard, etc. Plenty of defensive steel types to check Mence's STABs and some fast counters that can take it out with a strong ice attack, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some. All of which are commonly used, not just required on a team to deal with 1 new Mega. Suspect test, but don't quick ban Mega Salamence

Lol Ferrothorn doesn't wall Mega Mence. Sub DD Mega Mence can stall Ferro out of Gyro Balls and set up DDs on it. And if Skarm isn't running Shed Shell, you can just use Mag to trap and kill it. Gren only checks mence, since it loses if it gets a dd up. Cloyster is awful, and having to resort to a mon like that just to beat mence is an example of how centralizing it is. All the megas you mentioned are only checks, since they all lose if mence has set up one dragon dance. So yeah, Quick Ban Mega Salamence. The fact that you have to run really obscure mons like Porygon2, or really suboptimal sets like Scarf Gren warrants a ban imo.

Edit: yeah like the guy above me said, Mence can just run stuff like Fire Blast to kill Skarm/Ferro

 

[JSteele]

How are Ferro and Skarm being referred to as counters? Am i missing something? Arent they both toast unless Fire Blast misses?

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Meanwhile in this discussion thread that's actually kinda serving as a suspect test..

Just quick ban him already, we all know his affect on the meta, the fact he's too strong for OU, not a word anybody has said in this thread particularly is news to anyone, we really need to move on already.. we might as well call this a slowban rather than a quickban for the length of time it's taking to decide an obvious choice..

- Severly limits teambuilding.
- Versitile
- Overkill Attack and ability
- No true checks or counters outside a UU mon named porygon2.. which defines overcentralization.
- 7.8/10 too much bulk. I would provide calcs but I'm not sure if I'm the only one experiencing the damage calculator down or we're all aware of this..

We really need to see the meta develop while it's still early, we haven't even balance the x/y metagame yet and we already are being extremely slow with the oras one.

 

[Chaoswalker]

That's not because the Mega Stone was banned.
For instance, Gardevoir. Used to be Gardevoir was UU and it's Mega Stone only was banned. That's because Mega Gardevoir wasn't good enough in the Aegis meta but was too good for UU, so BL the Mega Stone stayed.
But then Aegis left, and Mega Gardevoir became really good - and since using Mega Gardevoir means you're essentially using Gardevoir, Gardevoir itself got a lot of usage in OU and like everything else in OU, was banned from UU due to usage.

But base Gardevoir cannot compare to the mega at all. Perhaps tracking all the Sceptiles/Mawiles with mega stones and those without is too annoying though.

 

[SilverPT]

TL;DR: Greninja, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Mega Lopunny, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Sceptile, Cloyster, Weavile, anything with ice shard, etc. Plenty of defensive steel types to check Mence's STABs and some fast counters that can take it out with a strong ice attack, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some. All of which are commonly used, not just required on a team to deal with 1 new Mega. Suspect test, but don't quick ban Mega Salamence

Ferrothorn is setup bait after being stalled out of Gyro Balls (SubRoost set), Greninja needs Focus Sash/Scarf, Skarmory can't do crap unless it carries Whirlwind, and none of the others mons are counters because they cannot switch-in and take a hit. Focus Sash users should not even be considered as checks tbh. You have to heavily rely on not giving a free turn to Mega Mence (which is kinda difficult btw) in order to get your supposed on the field and have them flinch/double/triple Protect or maintain their Sash intact. And, ofc, guess what Mega Mence set you're facing.

 

[Force Majeure]

TL;DR: Greninja, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Mega Lopunny, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Sceptile, Cloyster, Weavile, anything with ice shard, etc. Plenty of defensive steel types to check Mence's STABs and some fast counters that can take it out with a strong ice attack, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some. All of which are commonly used, not just required on a team to deal with 1 new Mega. Suspect test, but don't quick ban Mega Salamence

This is probably one of the better arguments I've seen against a quickban, but I think you're forgetting quite a few things.

1) Ferro and Skarm both lose to Fire Blast, which is commonly run because M-Mence really doesn't need/(want?) a Dragon-type STAB; Aerilate Returns/Double Edges are its most spammable attacks, giving it two moveslots to play around with on the DD set. If one of those is Substitute, Ferro turns into set-up bait. Both are trapped and removed easily by Magnezone, one of M-Mence's best partners.

2) If you're using Salemence properly, you send it in after your opponent has fainted one of your mons with something that doesn't threaten Mence's boosting. Suddenly, heaps of pokes, especially Choice locked ones, are suddenly a huge liability. Once Mence gets that first DD off it can outspeed and KO most frail offensive mons, 2HKO (or set up on) most defensive ones, or tank a couple of hits and wear down its opponent.

3) If you're trying to revenge kill Mence, it's already at +1. This means M-Lop, M-Sharpedo, and M-Sceptile will not work to revenge kill. If you are trying to switch something in to Mence, it will either have set up a Sub or a DD.

4) A few of these will work against Mence, but are typically suboptimal or really shaky. Shell Smash Cloyster is not great in OU and is OHKO'd by Fire Blast if rocks are up. Scarf Ninja is quite the same: people should not be having to use scarfed Greninja. It ruins the best part of Protean and is basically "GOTTA GO FAST" outside of dealing with Mence.

EDIT: For fun, I paired up M-Mence with lead SR + explosion Azelf. It was like a DPPtOU flashback (plus memento obvs). Throw in Maggy to trap steels and you've got a nasty core that breaks sashes, allows Mence even more of a set-up opportunity, and can remove Steels. Too easy.

 

[Kurona]

But base Gardevoir cannot compare to the mega at all. Perhaps tracking all the Sceptiles/Mawiles with mega stones and those without is too annoying though.

The fact stands that it is essentially a Gardevoir just using an item that boosts it's stats and changes it's ability, like how Soul Dew was an item that increased the Latis' special stats. It's sort of like saying Torrent Greninja isn't comparable to Protean Greninja and hence should be in a different tier, or that Modest Garchomp running Dragon Rage, Sand Attack, Slash and Surf isn't comparable to the normal Garchomp sets and hence should be in a different tier.

 

[New Light]

A few steel types can check Mega Mence or even counter certain sets (i.e., those lacking Fire Blast.) However, Magnezone/ton trap and remove these easily. I know someone is going to say "just run Shed Shell" but considering Knock Off is everywhere, that is hardly a reliable solution. Mence alone is enough, but paired with a steel trapper, it's basically unstoppable, barring dedicated checks/counters.

Other than that, Rotom-W works okay against DD+3 attacks but is setup bait for Sub DD. Unless you're running HP Ice on your physical wall just to deal with this thing, it's going to stand a very good chance of sweeping.

Mamo and Weavile are unreliable checks considering bulky Mence can live an Ice Shard from either of them, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) and Mence can often Sub up before they can switch safely in.

Mega Salamence reminds me a lot of Mega Kangaskhan in the early XY meta in that even if it is on a sub par team that does little to support it, it still stands a good chance of sweeping and even if it doesn't get a sweep, it reliably gets at least one kill per match. I see no reason not to quickban this thing. Why waste time on a suspect test when the end result will be the same? Let's ban this thing ASAP so we can move on to suspecting things that actually deserve it.

 

[Raven8]

I'm a pretty casual user compared to most here, and am nowhere near as good as the vast majority of the players stating their views, but I largely agree with the tiering process that Smogon has in place, and feel that it makes the entire game far more enjoyable. I've seen the flack given with things like Mega Mawile and Aegislash, and can say this from a more objective point of view: I feel that a quick-ban would be fair.

Just looking at this thing's whole package makes me wince a bit. It seems to me that, as it sits, Mega Salamence is to the OU metagame as Mega Rayquaza is to the Ubers metagame. It's oppressively powerful, and requires far too much dedication to effectively counter. Perhaps I'm not looking at enough of the metagame with a creative enough view, but it seems to me that when you have to rack your brain for ways to effectively deal with one single Pokemon outside of obvious Ubers, then it's probably toxic to the OU metagame.

That's my uneducated view, anyway =P

 

[Chaoswalker]

The fact stands that it is essentially a Gardevoir just using an item that boosts it's stats and changes it's ability, like how Soul Dew was an item that increased the Latis' special stats. It's sort of like saying Torrent Greninja isn't comparable to Protean Greninja and hence should be in a different tier, or that Modest Garchomp running Dragon Rage, Sand Attack, Slash and Surf isn't comparable to the normal Garchomp sets and hence should be in a different tier.

And Sould Dew was banned independently of Lati@s, as were Kangaskhanite and Gengarite. The problem is considering the pokemon without the item to still be the same threat. Mawile is still hilariously listed as OU while Mega Mawile is Uber on the Smogon Pokedex. Perhaps Mawile will be amended to Uber soon?

Choice Scarf is a stat boosting item. Mega stones change stats, abilities, typing, and often the overall function of the Pokemon in the metagame.

Beedrillite and Altaranite were banned from their tier just recently. Is Mega Altaria going to be OU?: Very likely. Is Altaria OU? Not even a little, as has been proven by its time without a mega stone. And now NU players will lose Altaria because it will gain usage with the banned item in OU.


Should I just start a topic about this somewhere else? This is getting lengthy and has little to do with Salamence anymore.

 

[Rustyy]

The fact stands that it is essentially a Gardevoir just using an item that boosts it's stats and changes it's ability, like how Soul Dew was an item that increased the Latis' special stats. It's sort of like saying Torrent Greninja isn't comparable to Protean Greninja and hence should be in a different tier, or that Modest Garchomp running Dragon Rage, Sand Attack, Slash and Surf isn't comparable to the normal Garchomp sets and hence should be in a different tier.

This is not a Gardevoir thread could you two please go somewhere else.

 

[Farpafraf]

Well I don't think there are any valid COUNTER-arguments to its ban:
1)Aerilate boost insanely its offensive power.
2)Intimidate combined with a decend bulk makes setup very easy.
3)He has access to a vast movepoll so there's nothing that can 100% counter him.
In my opinion the fact that trainers run scarfed greninja proves him to be unhealthy for this metagame hence I think M_Salamance should be moved in ubers.

 

[Reverb]

I would certainly support a quick ban. I've literally set up on Azumarill with it, proceeding to 6-0. It's one of those Pokemon that can get one DD and sweep and entire team. Even Pokemon that normally "check" Salamence-M, like Skarmory or Zapdos, will fall victim to Fire Blast and Stone Edge, respectively. Beyond the great offensive stats and speed, Salamence's base 130 Defense makes it difficult to take down. That, in combination with Intimidate, invites a plethora of situations where it can set up and sweep.

 

[Punchshroom]

Mawile is still hilariously listed as OU while Mega Mawile is Uber on the Smogon Pokedex. Perhaps Mawile will be amended to Uber soon?

Mawile is stuck in OU until the usage stats update, which would be every 3 months. This means it would take a total of 9 months for it to drop to NU, where it rightfully belongs, and that is if people of the respective tier don't spam the hell out of Mawile.

Beedrillite and Altaranite were banned from their tier just recently.

I literally have not heard anything about this until now. Prove it with a link, if you may.

Edit: boltsandbombers well that was hardly relevant, considering NU is still stuck with them :/

#obligatoryquickbantheshitoutofMegaMence

 

[boltsandbombers]

Mawile is stuck in OU until the usage stats update, which would be every 3 months. This means it would take a total of 9 months for it to drop to NU, where it rightfully belongs, and that is if people of the respective tier don't spam the hell out of Mawile.


I literally have not heard anything about this until now. Prove it with a link, if you may.

#obligatoryquickbantheshitoutofMegaMence

They were banned from PU. http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ite-altarianite-and-lopunnite-banned.3513882/

Edit: fair enough lol, it was something :P

 

[ボーイ]

Noivern certainly isn't a counter, since sashes are so easy to break. However, Scarf Noivern at least checks Mega Mence, even after a DD and past a sub. Draco Meteor is a OHKO unless Mence has 252 EVs in HP and at least 20 in SpD.

But if that's not a bizarre, little-use-against-anything-else solution, I don't know what is. And those things people are packing to slow down Mega Mence, like Weavile and Mamoswine, kill Noivern deader than disco.

Hold up. Let's stop talking about counters that counter Salamence's counters.
You do know I'm up for banning MegaMence right? same page? Ok cool.
Mamo/Weavile > Noivern (I get that, but it's irrelevant)
MegaMence > OU (now this is just retarded)

 

[chief_fabio]

totally agree with everybody says it should be banned. it's way too powerful. i struggle to defeat a mega salamence team, while my team runs through every non-mega salamence team. sashed alakazam could destroy it with hidden power ice, but it's not that easy.
i was thinking about a strategy using cofagrigus to counter the famous return-roost-substitute-dragondance set, but if it manages to set up a couple of dds it destroys anything.
so, i'm for the ban