Just adding on to what everyone's been saying, I hope I'm not over-selling Mence here, but if anyone doesn't think this thing is clearly Ubers, would you also support suspect testing Rayquaza in OU? Maybe there's something I'm not seeing but M-Mence is roughly as good (better in some ways) than Rayquaza would be in OU. I can't run calcs now, but I'm at least fairly certain Ray would reliably go down to the things that are meant to check it easier than Mence does (ie: strong STAB super effective attacks) wouldn't cripple and/or force out half of it's intended checks with Intimidate, can't fire off a ~130+ BP recoil-less, perfect accuracy abusable flying STAB (it doesn't even have a decent one), etc. Of course I'm not advocating for Rayquaza being in OU, just pointing out that if the idea seems justifiably preposterous, so should Mega-Salamence. Quickban iT.
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Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)
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Ray can Mega-evolve without a Mega Stone. That's the only thing worse than M-Sal.
Mega mence's boosting ability and bulk, as well as coverage (not that it even needs it lol) make for a terrifying sweeper that sets up with ease. I mean, when LO mamoswine is having trouble stopping it's sweep you have a problem. It can force its way by almost all of it's checks and counters with the right set, barring like p2. It can even turn status against it's opponents with Facade or dust it off altogether with refresh. You are required as player to make sure it doesn't even get one free turn at all costs, because if it does you've basically lost the game.
Quick Points
Firstly, can we stop bringing up Rayquaza. At this moment in time, the OU Council has no plans to retest anything (that is, a test to drop something down from ubers), at least until the ORAS Metagame has stabilized. This means there is still a little way to go before the OU Council would even potentially disucss a drop down. Therefore, I don't want to see posts, or threads asking for your pet Ubers mon to get a retest, it derails the thread. Yes, some of you believe that with the new threats from ORAS Aegislash and Mega Mawile etc all deserve a retest, but any potential retest would still be a long way away, and you are doing no favours discussing it now. If and only if the Council posts a topic on it, then you can debate it to your hearts content, but not here please.
Secondly, make sure your post adds something to discussion. Posts like "Yep this thing is cancer", while illuminating, do not promote healthy discussion, no matter how much I agree with them. Its difficult, I know (in this particular case at any rate), but insubstantial one liner posts eventually end up shitting up the thread. If you are stuck, you can ready my sticky thread about Suspect etiquette, it would prolly help you out in the long run. Lastly, please ignore / don't feed the trolls, if they don't get the attention they want the give up.
Firstly, can we stop bringing up Rayquaza. At this moment in time, the OU Council has no plans to retest anything (that is, a test to drop something down from ubers), at least until the ORAS Metagame has stabilized. This means there is still a little way to go before the OU Council would even potentially disucss a drop down. Therefore, I don't want to see posts, or threads asking for your pet Ubers mon to get a retest, it derails the thread. Yes, some of you believe that with the new threats from ORAS Aegislash and Mega Mawile etc all deserve a retest, but any potential retest would still be a long way away, and you are doing no favours discussing it now. If and only if the Council posts a topic on it, then you can debate it to your hearts content, but not here please.
Secondly, make sure your post adds something to discussion. Posts like "Yep this thing is cancer", while illuminating, do not promote healthy discussion, no matter how much I agree with them. Its difficult, I know (in this particular case at any rate), but insubstantial one liner posts eventually end up shitting up the thread. If you are stuck, you can ready my sticky thread about Suspect etiquette, it would prolly help you out in the long run. Lastly, please ignore / don't feed the trolls, if they don't get the attention they want the give up.
I am certainly nowhere as experienced or involved with the OU metagame as most of the people posting in this thread are, but after encountering M-Salamence in about 1/3 of the battles in OU/ORAS OU in the past month I feel that I can relate to this topic a little bit more than I would normally consider myself as understanding.
However, it is hard to not sound like a broken record when it comes to voicing my opinion about this topic, as almost all (if we can't use definites) of the best arguments, such as that it is over-centralizing and has been given an ability and movepool that make it near impossible to beat consistently.
My main gripe with M-Salamence is that it simply is a cookie-cutter 'mon. There's no reason to experiment much with its movepool: it has already been shown on countless occasions that the main Sub-DD set will pretty much always be what it runs if it wants to properly attack the metagame flawlessly. It is predictable, but not to the point where it can be taken advantage of or handled well enough, which is quite troubling. It can be tacked on to just about every team with almost no disadvantages. For this reason, along with many others, it should be quickbanned.
However, it is hard to not sound like a broken record when it comes to voicing my opinion about this topic, as almost all (if we can't use definites) of the best arguments, such as that it is over-centralizing and has been given an ability and movepool that make it near impossible to beat consistently.
My main gripe with M-Salamence is that it simply is a cookie-cutter 'mon. There's no reason to experiment much with its movepool: it has already been shown on countless occasions that the main Sub-DD set will pretty much always be what it runs if it wants to properly attack the metagame flawlessly. It is predictable, but not to the point where it can be taken advantage of or handled well enough, which is quite troubling. It can be tacked on to just about every team with almost no disadvantages. For this reason, along with many others, it should be quickbanned.
I wholly agree with your post, but there's simply nothing left to say to add to any discussion. All the points necessary to conclude this thread and quickban Mega Mence have been made. Posting anything "productive" in this thread is simply repeating something that has already been stated and has yet to be validly disproven. This is also not to mention that quickbanning Mega Mence is nearly unanimous, and only one of the few that don't want a quickban thinks it doesn't even need a suspect test and he/she/it/whatever is blatantly either massively intellectually incompetent, incompetent in battle, or a troll. Can we just lock this thread please?
Eren Swaeger
Banned deucer.
Just calculated some bulky defensive pokes taking a hit against mega salamance. The calculator I used:http://honko.byethost8.com/APC/ap_calc.html
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Ferrothorn: 192-226 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Ferrothorn: 223-264 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed
Would you look at that, OU's right hand man for physical defence and support folds to Sega Salamence's power. Sure, you'll live one hit and be able to maybe get your rocks off or maybe even a leech seed to make the return be a 3HKO (if you get minimum damage on the return the next turn). But if that mega salamence has 1 dragon dance up, It's a definite 2HKO: +1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Ferrothorn: 286-337 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. (Calculated this with salamence's base attack changed to 145 because that's the mega's base attack stat and with an adamant nature and with the mega's ability, Aerilate). One last thing: +1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Ferrothorn on a critical hit: 429-505 (121.8 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO. But of course, this all depends on luck. All the same applies to double edge but it will be a definite 2HKO regardless of leech seed. And, you would still OHKO if you get a crit.
Your up, mega Slowbro! As oppose to Ferrothorn, which has base 131 defence, mega slowbro has base 181. Let's see if it will can stop the savage beast.
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 121-144 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- 62.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowbro: 156-184 (36 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Well... I think we just found a check to mega salamence. Not to mention, look at this:
4 SpA Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 312-368 (94.2 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Hmm... maybe this beast is stoppable? Oh, I forgot! Sub dragon dance is a thing on this poke. So if you play it right, you could take out the Slowbro. Maybe set up a sub before Slowbro comes out then do a dragon dance. Because after 1 dragon dance, this happens:
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO/+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Hmm.. that doesn't really make a difference. Let's try an outrage.
252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 109-129 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 163-193 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Sigh... In that case, just switch your Salamence out... If you can't then good game. But, if you get a +1 double edge off and hit mega Slowbro on the turn it comes in, that could solve the problem of mega Slowbro.
But nevertheless, the ORAS metagame is still in it's infancy. I mean, the game just came out yesterday for North America lol. Maybe someone will find a check or maybe even a counter to Mega Salamence.
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Ferrothorn: 192-226 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Ferrothorn: 223-264 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed
Would you look at that, OU's right hand man for physical defence and support folds to Sega Salamence's power. Sure, you'll live one hit and be able to maybe get your rocks off or maybe even a leech seed to make the return be a 3HKO (if you get minimum damage on the return the next turn). But if that mega salamence has 1 dragon dance up, It's a definite 2HKO: +1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Ferrothorn: 286-337 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. (Calculated this with salamence's base attack changed to 145 because that's the mega's base attack stat and with an adamant nature and with the mega's ability, Aerilate). One last thing: +1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Ferrothorn on a critical hit: 429-505 (121.8 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO. But of course, this all depends on luck. All the same applies to double edge but it will be a definite 2HKO regardless of leech seed. And, you would still OHKO if you get a crit.
Your up, mega Slowbro! As oppose to Ferrothorn, which has base 131 defence, mega slowbro has base 181. Let's see if it will can stop the savage beast.
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 121-144 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- 62.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slowbro: 156-184 (36 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Well... I think we just found a check to mega salamence. Not to mention, look at this:
4 SpA Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 312-368 (94.2 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Hmm... maybe this beast is stoppable? Oh, I forgot! Sub dragon dance is a thing on this poke. So if you play it right, you could take out the Slowbro. Maybe set up a sub before Slowbro comes out then do a dragon dance. Because after 1 dragon dance, this happens:
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO/+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Hmm.. that doesn't really make a difference. Let's try an outrage.
252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 109-129 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 163-193 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Sigh... In that case, just switch your Salamence out... If you can't then good game. But, if you get a +1 double edge off and hit mega Slowbro on the turn it comes in, that could solve the problem of mega Slowbro.
But nevertheless, the ORAS metagame is still in it's infancy. I mean, the game just came out yesterday for North America lol. Maybe someone will find a check or maybe even a counter to Mega Salamence.
The ORAS OU metagame has been out for around a month since the Mega stats were datamined from the demo, so we have tried everything. I can't really say much else since I'm afraid of beating a dead horse due to the fact that anything else I could've said was already mentioned by another person at some point in this thread (not to mention the fact that pretty much 95% of the people here wish to see MegaMence quickbanned or at least suspected first).
Asek
Banned deucer.
I'm sorry, but there probably would be some discussion in this thread if everyones attitutude to MegaMence wasnt such a mob mentality one. I believe Norne pointed it out as well, but any chance for a serious discussion on MegaMence's suspect status was killed when the one person who believes that MegaMence is OK for OU in this thread was made out to be an incompetent idiot by multiple people. Granted 56k may not have presented their arguement in the best manner, but nobody should be ridiculed for posting their opinion. If I thought that MegaMence deserved a suspect in maybe 3-4 weeks due to the fact that the meta may settle and develop in that time rather than a quickban I personally wouldnt want to post about it because about 3-5 people would jump onto me straight away with hilarious reaction gifs and one liner 'haha ur a retard' posts. By the way, lots of the arguments supporting MegaMence getting a quickban are poorly constructed and pretty much have no substance, but I see nobody pointing those out.
Haven't played enough ORAS yet to make my mind up on whether or not MegaMence should be quickbanned or not, but I will agree with the circlejerk in this thread that MegaMence is a problem and probably should go sooner rather than later. Would personally prefer for it to be suspected unless a quickban is nessecary to ensure stability in an ongoing / upcoming major tournament
Eren Swaeger
Banned deucer.
I'm with the 95% of people who want mega salamece gone. Also, how did you find out the stat's and BST of mega salamence when it wasn't in the demo? Did corocoro announce it?
The data was in the demo, the Pokémon just wasn't obtainable in it.
Look, no offence, but you can't actually say some of the things 56k said and not expect to be laughed at. We're all human here, we can be civil to a limit, and that limit just so happened to be somebody saying that all the previously banned mega pokemon + deoxys would be ok in OU and that the meta wouldn't be any different with them in it. You're acting as if we're all savages for jumping on an opinion, when really he was proven wrong through civil and logical arguments for almost 3 pages and yet he still continued to argue with more ridiculous statements in each post. Eventually it was going to descend into what it did, people getting fed up and laughing.
A quick ban is very much necessary. You may not see it because of your lack of experience with the ORAS metagame, but it is much needed. There have been plenty of well expressed reasons as to why Mega Mence needs to go. It was just lost in the pages of back-and-forth arguments with 56k. On paper alone it's clear how incredibly ridiculous Mega Menace is. There are all of what, two solid "guaranteed" checks to Mega Mence, and they aren't Pokemon that could just fit on any team, they're Pokemon that would other wise never dream of being OU.
I'll reiterate.
More like gyarados meets pinsir and ferrothorn with offensive evs. Given the fast nature of doubles his weaknesses might be easy to cover or address, I can see defiant thundurus in tandem with MSableye covering him quite well or even zapdos, heck you could run scarf turn trapping Landorus and pachirisu if you are into that, or exploited by trick room teams, or the deadly speculated gravity meowstic M combos... I'm not that experienced at doubles, but in XY I witnessed several theorical ways of bringing him down.
VGC is a double format so I don't see a point in discussions how Msalamence would fare there influence his overcentralizing aspects in singles. If any he might be suboptimal and his weaknesses would be over covered akin to Mkhabga to a point it isn't that broken there or suffers the Blaziken treatment at doubles. If this is the case I can see the kids plaguing smogon Facebook saying we where wrong on banning him because he isn't that strong in doubles without the relevant knowledge of how this monster is an instant momentum Graber in singles. But again those folks will hate whatever they can if able. This let's focus on singles, that's where the OU ladder is balanced at.
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I know, I know. I'm sorry to have brought it up. It's just that I'm a VGC player most of the time, and all arguments about it in OU are already set. It's way easier to put it down in doubles, and I've never had a problem with mega kanga after my team was set to beat it, but that was my rants. The meta will be basically use it or best it, at least for the first few months.
Again, sorry for bringing this up. I play both metas and I know well the difference. Mega kanga is not broken when you can beat her with both Pokemon, and that's the same for mega mence.
Edit: And I hate facebook kids complaining about Smogon's bans without knowing how things go and yet they post Smogon rules.
I honestly see no further points coming from this thread that actually provide something more than what we've already heard about 50 times. There is no good argument for a suspect test, no good argument for it to stay and a damn good argument for it to piss off. 99% of everyone in this thread want a quick ban, 0.5% want it to be suspected and the other 0.5% want it to stay (god knows why) and didn't even provide a good argument for it to do so. That said, I still don't see why this thread is open
I don't think mega salamence deserves a quick ban or even a ban in general. It's really strong and bulky making it easy to sweep, I'll give it that. But it's never gave me such a hard time to be honest. The Salamence megenzone core is decent to get rid of some steal types to make salemence sweep better but in all honesty zone is complete set up fodder for charizard X and can completely sweep or damage your opponent's team and even at neutral damage a dragon claw from charizard X can OHKO mega mence after stealth rocks.
This battle shows how easy it is to beat the mega mence - zone core
http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-ou-656514
I've also mentioned before that hP ice rotom is a decent way to deal with mega mence as long as u predict right and mence doesn't carry refresh. There are other sets that can deal with the most common salamence set being bulky steel, and rock types. I honestly believe mega mence is too over hyped and people aren't finding creative ways to play around this thing.
This battle shows how easy it is to beat the mega mence - zone core
http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-ou-656514
I've also mentioned before that hP ice rotom is a decent way to deal with mega mence as long as u predict right and mence doesn't carry refresh. There are other sets that can deal with the most common salamence set being bulky steel, and rock types. I honestly believe mega mence is too over hyped and people aren't finding creative ways to play around this thing.
I'm sorry but that battle was a poor example of MMences power and the point still remains that you need to run several checks against it to be safe. Not everyone is gonna use these "creative ways" to deal with one darn threat. I'd like to see your Mega Charizard switch into Mega Salamence instead and see how well the battle went.
The data for the game has been out for a month, people have been playing for a month. If it's taken a whole month and Mence is still uncounterable, I don't think the cartridge suddenly being out is going to inspire new counters. A huge portion of showdown users don't even own a 3DS and yet have more experience with ORAS competitive battling than people who own the game but don't play showdown -- 4 weeks worth of experience.
edit: weeks not months lol
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seeing as how that team had literally zero safe switch ins to zard x bar mamo with an unbroken sash, it really came down to who makes the least retarded plays and sets up first. not exactly a strong selling point.
This is the problem. People don't want to run new shit. They just wanna use the same boring predictable things and when they see a new poke that threatens their boring predictable play style they want to get rid of it. I've already admitted that mega mence is powerful but thats no reason for it to be banned.
With the whole several checks argument though my team does have 3 checks to it, I did not make it specifically to check mence, it just so happens that it does decent against it if I play right.
And I'm obviously not going to switch my charziard into a mega mence and lose one of my win conditions and no way proves that mence is broken or deserves a ban.
No one is going to run new shit if it gets beat by the rest of OU. That's the whole point of banning, if something is so "uncompetitive" to the point where you have to run a bloody scarfed greninja or something ridiculous along those lines, then that's when you know you have an unhealthy and unbalanced meta.
Maybe if you had faced a competent team with MegaMence your arguement might prove some merit but so far all you have is a shoddy battle video and an argument that creative sets can win. Would you mind then enlightening us on all these creative sets that stop MegaMence cold in it's tracks? Also common sets are common because they are good. Unique doesn't mean good.
Edit: Greninja'd by Wolfenstein
No, people just don't want to run the one thing in the entire unbroken national Pokédex that can in some cases beat Mega Salamence.
As for 'not running new shit and using the same boring predictable things'... should I refer you to the rises of Hawlucha? Staraptor? Magnezone, Rhyperior? If there's a healthy change in the metagame that allows for a previously unviable Pokémon to find a place, it'll likely find it. But for now, there's no place for your Stantler or Milotic in OU because they're either completely outclassed or just can't compete with the rest of the metagame.
But this point is digressing and I'm sure anyone else on this website with the least bit of experience can explain it to you better. The point is, a well-played Mega Salamence, which isn't that hard to do - just set up sub on just about anything and d-dance away - will never have any actual counters in OU nor will it promote a healthy playstyle.
I also want to add (since nobody mentioned for some reason) that he made a bad play by not Volt Switching which gave the Zard X the safe switch in. He/she just threw the game away by using HP Fire.
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