Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

[mad0ka]

boo836 , the difference was that Missy wasn't killed by random coverage moves on the scarf set. Gastly literally dies to a jolly wild charge, so it doesn't even need to run thief, giving it less of a 4MSS.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Also keep in mind that while zigzagoon lost one of its best walls, it also lost one of its best teammates. With Missy no longer being able to provide memento support for it, team building becomes more restricted for these types of teams. As Levi said, Gastly does well against it, and other common stuff can still wall it, archen is one of them, without seed bomb any bulky rock-type like Tirtouga can deal with it too.

I honestly don't think Porygon deserves to drop down much in usage and as someone mentioned shadow ball doesn't need to be used now, Ice Beam makes you a great Fletchling counter and drilbur too which was annoying because it could avoid twave although it still loses 1v1 psychic could also be used to damage fighting type switchins like Timburr and Mienfoo while it wrecks Croagunk.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Here is my foresight:

I don't think Honedge will be increasing in usage at all; it's a horrible Pokemon. Gastly will never be anything close to Misdreavus as an offensive threat, because it cannot set up, it can't switch into anything (except U-turn lol) besides Trubbish, and it is outsped by all of the 19 Speed mons, giving them an added purpose. Choice Scarf Gastly with Trick might become a bigger thing, and that's about it, but that tactic is hilariously blocked by the one Pokemon it might be able to wall because Sticky Hold prevents item removal. Pawniard's need for Choice Scarf is now significantly less, as other Ghost-types aren't nearly as difficult for teams to play around, and Life Orb and Eviolite will become more common items for it to carry.

I think that the lack of Misdreavus will cause a rise in the usage of Drilbur, which will, in combination with the decreased defensive purpose of Porygon, give rise to bulky Staryu as a new Recover wall, which can outspeed and destroy Drilbur (without using a Timid nature) while also being able to reliably spin away hazards.

236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Staryu: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO

If Drilbur declines enough in usage, that will almost put a stopper in Ground-type offense in the tier, since it's honestly the only offensive STAB Earthquake user worth using. Archen is a good user of Earthquake, but it will struggle to find room for it on a set, especially with all the DEFENSIVE purposes that Archen will soon find crucial for itself. Cubone requires specific support to even TRY to be effective and Sandshrew is slower than Drilbur and even more vulnerable to the things Drilbur has problems with, mainly special Water- and Grass-type attacks.


The rise in usage of Zigzagoon because of Misdreavus's ban will cause Leech Seed + Protect Ferroseed to increase in usage, and Clear Smog will become largely more common than Sludge Bomb on Foongus and Koffing. Gastly cannot take a Thief from Zigzagoon at all. Archen's major role in walling Fletchling and Fletchling/Diglett might be extended to being able to keep pressure on Zigzagoon with its resistance to Normal, as an Adamant Berry Juice Archen set with 76 EVs each in HP and Defense guarantees that +6 Extreme Speed does not KO from full health, and heals Archen back up to be able to OHKO back hard with STAB itemless Acrobatics, without being hindered by Defeatist. As long as Stealth Rock is not on the field, full health Archen will be able to switch into Zigzagoon the first turn it's out and beat it no matter what move it uses as Archen comes in. Archen will probably become the best switch-in to Bunnelby as well.

+6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 76 HP / 76 Def Archen: 18-21 (78.2 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

180+ Atk Archen Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 108 Def Zigzagoon: 22-27 (110 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(Jolly Archen will need Stealth Rock support to assure this OHKO on Zigzagoon)


OVERALL, I strongly feel that the biggest shift Misdreavus's ban will bring to Little Cup will stem from the need for a new conventional Will-O-Wisp to neuter physical attackers. Gastly will not be able to burn Meowth before eating that Knock Off and it will not be able to damage Taillow before getting destroyed by Scrappy Boomburst. It's not going to work; Gastly is bad at taking physical hits from even burned Pokemon, and Choice Scarf Gastly is not going to run Will-O-Wisp, so there's a problem. Frillish is a much more reliable user of Will-O-Wisp, but its poor Speed will cause it to get slammed with a super effective Knock Off by many of the things it wants to be able to burn. It can run a decent Choice Scarf + Trick set too, but again, you won't find Will-O-Wisp on that. As such, I believe that Ponyta will rise greatly in usage and become the premier Will-O-Wisp user in the tier with its great 19 Speed, reasonable bulk, and ability to dish out strong hits and heal itself. Other Fire-types such as Vulpix and Larvesta may see increased usage for the same reason, and the fact that Fletchling still remains in Little Cup means that at least Larvesta and the Chlorophyll sweepers enabled by Vulpix's Drought won't be having free reign over the metagame. With all this in consideration, Fletchling will help keep in check the things that might rise in usage due to Misdreavus being banned.

Hazard control will have greater importance than ever before with new reliance on Fire-types for spreading burn status and with Archen having more reason to see defensive use. The main problem now is being able to reliably block Rapid Spin without regretting giving a Ghost that isn't Misdreavus a spot on a team.

 

[fitzy72]

Here is my foresight:

I don't think Honedge will be increasing in usage at all; it's a horrible Pokemon.

Agreed if anything it lost out as it could revenge weakened Misdreavus with shadow sneak.

Gastly will never be anything close to Misdreavus as an offensive threat, because it cannot set up, it can't switch into anything (except U-turn lol) besides Trubbish, and it is outsped by all of the 1 Speed mons, giving them an added purpose. Choice Scarf Gastly with Trick might become a bigger thing, and that's about it, but that tactic is hilariously blocked by the one Pokemon it might be able to wall because Sticky Hold prevents item removal.

Yeah gastly is never going to be like Misdreavus but the LO set undoubtedly just got better as something that could always revenge it just banned and we should be seeing less things that beat it like Houndour and Stunky.

I think that the lack of Misdreavus will cause a rise in the usage of Drilbur

Now we are going to possibly see usage of ghosts that actually switch in and beat Drilbur (Frillish and the grass ones) I wouldn't expect it to rise much.

give rise to bulky Staryu as a new Recover wall, which can outspeed and destroy Drilbur (without using a Timid nature) while also being able to reliably spin away hazards.

I never liked staryu last gen and this gen it lost BP on its coverage moves and now defog is a thing. I don't think its speed is a good enough reason to use it as a spinner but please prove me wrong.

If Drilbur declines enough in usage, that will almost put a stopper in Ground-type offense in the tier, since it's honestly the only offensive STAB Earthquake user worth using. Archen is a good user of Earthquake, but it will struggle to find room for it on a set, especially with all the DEFENSIVE purposes that Archen will soon find crucial for itself. Cubone requires specific support to even TRY to be effective and Sandshrew is slower than Drilbur and even more vulnerable to the things Drilbur has problems with, mainly special Water- and Grass-type attacks.

This statement is pretty silly. Onix is always a pain to deal with as it has 17 Speed, Sturdy Juice, stab on both Rock Blast and Earthquake and Explosion. Cubone might require TR support but that's still possible to do, ask Dsr (I think) for replays. Sandshrew is a as good an option to use on sand teams than Drilbur as it is less easy to revenge kill with fletch and has Knock off.

The rise in usage of Zigzagoon because of Misdreavus's ban will cause Leech Seed + Protect Ferroseed to increase in usage, and Clear Smog will become largely more common than Sludge Bomb on Foongus and Koffing. Gastly cannot take a Thief from Zigzagoon at all. Archen's major role in walling Fletchling and Fletchling/Diglett might be extended to being able to keep pressure on Zigzagoon with its resistance to Normal, as an Adamant Berry Juice Archen set with 76 EVs each in HP and Defense guarantees that +6 Extreme Speed does not KO from full health, and heals Archen back up to be able to OHKO back hard with STAB itemless Acrobatics, without being hindered by Defeatist. As long as Stealth Rock is not on the field, full health Archen will be able to switch into Zigzagoon the first turn it's out and beat it no matter what move it uses as Archen comes in. Archen will probably become the best switch-in to Bunnelby as well.

+6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 76 HP / 76 Def Archen: 18-21 (78.2 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

180+ Atk Archen Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 108 Def Zigzagoon: 22-27 (110 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(Jolly Archen will need Stealth Rock support to assure this OHKO on Zigzagoon)

First off you have to remember that while Misdreavus was one of the best ways to check Zigzagoon that it was also a great way to help setup with memento. Ferroseed was already one of the best ways to handle Zigzagoon so I agree there. LO gastly ohko's Zigzagoon so there is no reason to be taking a thief. Your Archen calcs are using spreads nobody actually uses for Archen and Zigzagoon but Archen actually is a good way to handle providing you can keep rocks off the field which is harder said than done.

Not going to comment on the last part except that it sounds like in what you think the meta game will turn into that Heal Bell Chinchou will be S tier.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Now we are going to possibly see usage of ghosts that actually switch in and beat Drilbur (Frillish and the grass ones) I wouldn't expect it to rise much.

Frillish, yes. The Grass/Ghost mons will be too busy running in fear from a variety of top threats in Little Cup, including Fletchling, Pawniard, Ponyta, and probably that LO Gastly you mentioned. It's great that they resist Earthquake, but are they useful other than messing with Drilbur? Will-O-Wisp sounds like a good thing for them to use until you consider Ponyta switching in for free and potentially with a Flash Fire boost as well.

If they become THAT problematic, Drilbur could just run Shadow Claw to 2HKO them both on the switch-in, no matter how much bulk they run. It's a practical thing to run coverage for something that arises to stop you; same reason why Fletchling would run Overheat or HP Grass. The difference between hitting these two with Shadow Claw and hitting Misdreavus is that Drilbur outspeeds both of these. They won't get to hit back after switching in.

236 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Drilbur Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Drilbur Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Phantump: 13-16 (54.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I never liked staryu last gen and this gen it lost BP on its coverage moves and now defog is a thing. I don't think its speed is a good enough reason to use it as a spinner but please prove me wrong.

My tutees and I have been using a bulky Natural Cure Staryu set with Scald, HP Fire, Recover, and Rapid Spin. It's a legitimately good set that would just rather have problems with Chinchou than to give Ferroseed a free switch-in.

This statement is pretty silly. Onix is always a pain to deal with as it has 17 Speed, Sturdy Juice, stab on both Rock Blast and Earthquake and Explosion. Cubone might require TR support but that's still possible to do, ask Dsr (I think) for replays. Sandshrew is a as good an option to use on sand teams than Drilbur as it is less easy to revenge kill with fletch and has Knock off.

I know that these Ground-types can be good under the right circumstances, but it's pretty widely known and accepted that Drilbur is the most conventional Ground-type in the tier and requires the least team support to use to good effect.

First off you have to remember that while Misdreavus was one of the best ways to check Zigzagoon that it was also a great way to help setup with memento. Ferroseed was already one of the best ways to handle Zigzagoon so I agree there. LO gastly ohko's Zigzagoon so there is no reason to be taking a thief. Your Archen calcs are using spreads nobody actually uses for Archen and Zigzagoon but Archen actually is a good way to handle providing you can keep rocks off the field which is harder said than done.

LO Gastly takes a huge chunk from Thief on the switch-in and has no way to recover the damage off or take advantage of the switch it will force next turn, with an unreliable chance to have enough health left to use Substitute. It's fair to assume that Gastly would be switching in for this encounter because only an idiot would set up Zigzagoon in front of a Ghost-type.

196+ Atk Zigzagoon Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gastly: 12-16 (63.1 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As for the Archen and Zigzagoon calcs, the Archen one I used is one I made just for an example that beats Zigzagoon in any circumstance if it switches in the first turn Zigzagoon is out. The spread I used for Zigzagoon was the default one from the calculator, but the spread from the XY Zigzagoon analysis yields the same results anyway.

180+ Atk Archen Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 132 HP / 28 Def Zigzagoon: 24-28 (109 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Artemisa]

Grass/Ghost one is pretty neat. Just dont stay in on stuff that can ko it for damage it severely.

LO Drilbur w/ Shadow Claw seems pretty wierd to me, but idk I haven't tried it outside if sand teams.

Gastly doesn't have to switch in, if anything it should until Zigzagoon uses belly drum or get chip damage on it while it sets up. Then it can revenge reliably.

The Archen set I use in general is 236 hp / 236 def / 36 atk eviolite sometimes with roar to phaze out stuff. My favorite defensive moveset is Rock Slide / Roost / Defog / Earthquake (Roar). I don't find SR all that necessary.

Anyway yeah Gastly is not like Missy, but in terms of raw power gastly is way stronger. 18 speed isn't so bad now that most of the used 19 speed mons got banned, and sub + 3 attacks or sub hypnosis are gonna be sweet sets.

I'm really looking foward to this meta.

 

[Eren Yeagar]

Missy Ban Reaction

YESSSSS!!!

I'm so glad that misdreavus is banned from LC. Misdreavus made many pokes that had the same/alike job to it completely got overshadowed because of its beastly stats (LC wise). I'm surprised misdreavus took this long to get a ban. Anyway, as many of you guys said and predicted, many pokes will rise and fall in usage now that misdreavus is getting the banhammer. I'm going to give you guys some of my opinions.

Ghost types(mainly Gastly): Now that misdreavus is gone, many ghost types can now have some spotlight. Gastly, as predicted, is going to rise heavily, but gastly doesn't fit missy's shoes very well. One of misdreavus's nicehes is that it has amazing support moves such as will-o-wisp, nasty plot, substitute, and destiny bond. Misdreavus uses those moves amazingly thanks to its defences and attacking power. Gastly does have some nice support moves, but the big problem is gastly is very frail. It pretty much dies from almost every neutral/super effective attack, which is really disappointing while missy there tanks a lot. There's a bright side with gastly though. It can hit really hard thanks to its base 105 special attack, but it does miss a few KOs with some pokes though. So most of the time you use gastly, you need a life orb to hit harder or a choice scarf if you want to be faster and revenge kill better. Also, probably the biggest downside with gastly is pawniard. Scarf pawniard will plummet in usage since missy is getting banned. Now life orb or eviolite pawniard will see some usage. With pawniard being around, it could sucker punch and OHKO life orb and choice scarf gastly. Plus, pursuit is a thing in case gastly wants to switch. The only way for dealing with pawniard is focus sash to take a hit and OHKO with hidden power fighting. The problem is you need a support poke like archen or vullaby to defog rocks away so the sash is in intact. Without life orb, you miss out on important OHKOs and without choice scarf, you miss out on some speed situations and can't kill sweepers that have boosted speed and shell smashers. Other than that, gastly hits very hard, and it's now one of the best ghost types now that missy is gone.

Okay, now with other ghost types. I don't really see any notable ones that will rise other than pumpkaboo. Please suggest other ghost types you think will rise. Pumpkaboo , or as I call it "The Ghost Ferroseed" is a really balanced poke in LC. it learns some very need coverage moves such as rock slide and fire blast(lol, what?!), so pumpkaboo is going to see a lot more usage like gastly too. It also has access to will-o-wisp and shadow sneak, which are nice moves it can abuse. Pumpkaboo sadly is going to be hindered by many knock off users and especially pawniard, but if i recall correctly, pumpkaboo wins 1v1 with gastly. That's nice to.

Normal Type Hype: I really don't think bunnelby and zigzagoon need more hype. They already had a lot in the first place. Sure, misdreavus was both of their #1 threats, but the missy ban will also hinder them too. Misdreavus was also a godly team mate for both of those 2 normal type physical sweepers. For zigzagoon, misdreavus was a great threat remover and made zigzagoon's setup more helpful with memento support and for bunnelby, misdreavus also took down bunnelby's threats and made its mid/late game sweep easier. There are still threats to zigzagoon and bunnelby though. For example...
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 188 SpD Zigzagoon: 19-23 (95 - 115%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Also, destiny bond gastly is a thing to take down ziggy.
236 Atk Life Orb Pumpkaboo-Super Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Bunnelby: 17-21 (85 - 105%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yes, I do agree, bunnelby and gastly are going to be HUGE threats to teams, but I just wanted to give some opinions to why the hype should be a little less.

Fletchling: Fletchling also got benefited from the misdreavus ban. With misdreavus gone, fletchling has one more poke not to worry about. Since some misdreavus have thunderbolt as an attacking move, fletchling got super shocked and got OHKO'd which was a big problem. Now that misdreavus is banned, pawniard is freed from scarf being mandatory to kill missy. Since eviolite pawn is now going to skyrocket, pawn can survive an overheat with about 40% of HP remaining , swords dance up, and kill fletchling with a sucker punch. Or you will predict the switch and go for pursuit and kill. It's kind of even for fletchling now that misdreavus is banned.

STALL RISING?: Now that misdreavus is gone, stall will come back since most of the stallers hated its berry juice, substitute, and nasty plot set. Due to most stallmons relying on status moves such as toxic/burn/paralysis, they can't hit the substitute misdreavus creates. That also wastes a precious turn since you basically gave misdreavus a free nasty plot or two. Gastly , the up and coming wallbreaker in misdreavus's shoes, can't really do well against stall like missy did due to lack of recovery, lack of setup, and frailty. Gastly is not going to be too big of a problem since porygon can just recover like no tomorrow. Knock off is still a problem to stall though, so pawniard can destroy stall teams since most stall teams have pokes weak to knock off and can't take a pawn's iron head too well. Will the tier shift make stall a viable playstyle in LC since misdreavus,one of the biggest threat is gone?


Anyway, Celebrate A NO MISSY METAGAME!!!

 

[GlassGlaceon]

baril doe

STALL RISING?
in short, no.
the rise of gastly, an even more powerful stallbreaker than misdreavus, says otherwise. While not as eventually potent as SpecsTrick+NP was, gastly still sports a great movepool, Sludge bomb which 2HKOs pory after the poison chance btw iirc, and marginally higher sp.atk than missy and is more initially threatening than missy could have dreamed to be. SubDisable, Will-o, gastly does most of the same stuff but with a second STAB, less bulk, and more power.

The predicted fall in usage of Scarf Pawniard means a rise in both LO and Evio, which potentially means a rise in Swords Dance, Stall's worst nightmare. Like literally after mienfoo is even slightly weakneed pawniard cripples/tears through a ton of stall.

Bunny 2HKOs pretty much every mon on stall, and the ones he doesn't don't have reliable recovery off the top of my head

Knock Off Abra and LO abra both still exist, two big problems to stall, as when paired with mons with similar counters, an easily break through even stall's bulkiest walls.

also stall is bad lol

 

[Rowan]

Stall is good shush glass. Anyway, NP missy was one of the biggest problems for stall and it will benefit from missy being gone. Gastly is easier to counter than missy, try munchlax, or even the niche chespin.

There's always gonna be nice stall breakers like abra, gastly and stuff like cranidos but they're easier to play around than missy ever was.

 

[Caledrith]

I believe Abra has the highest SpA in the tier, run Life Orb on that sucker now that Scarf Pawn should fall in usage, and destroy everything. Scarf Cranidos or Web Cranidos should rise in usage as well. These are the ultimate stallbreakers imo, and I don't think stall really has a place in LC tbfh.

 

[kingmidas]

Stall is good shush glass. Anyway, NP missy was one of the biggest problems for stall and it will benefit from missy being gone. Gastly is easier to counter than missy, try munchlax, or even the niche chespin.

There's always gonna be nice stall breakers like abra, gastly and stuff like cranidos but they're easier to play around than missy ever was.

Trick specs and LO missy were the most dangerous, np on LO if you can set it up is gg in a lot of scenarios. And now without missy munchlax is a more viable normal type on stall, as it hits hard and pursuit can do much more to gastly's staying in than it could to missy.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Yeah it's not just sub missy that troubles stall, it's just Missy in general, remember it can run taunt to stop status moves, it can lure in walls and trick them either specs or scarf and of course specs missy just hits like a truck anyway. Also stall was always viable, however stall teams are often very difficult to build but well built Stall teams can be really effective but I digress. We could expect a rise in stall because missy has left although I still don't think the play style will be that common because it's difficult to build, and not everyone wants to have to throw on a Sticky Hold Pokemon like Trubbish or Shellos so they have something to switch into Knock Off reapetedly.

Any other normally types that people expect to rise aside from zig and Bunnelby? Archen should become even better than it is to deal with Normal-types that may rise because of Missy leaving

 

[Corporal Levi]

Others have already mentioned Munchlax as a Normal-type that could rise in usage and, having used it a bit recently, I fully agree. I'm finding it to be an excellent addition to stall teams; the Eviolite variant is able to easily switch in on attacks from purported stallbreakers such as Gastly and Abra and put them out of commission then and there with Pursuit. Outside of beating key threats for stall teams, Munchlax is also a pretty good all-purpose special wall; with a Resttalk set, it is able to endlessly switch in on Vulpix, while stomaching most attacks from Chlorophyll sweepers as well, provided they don't carry Growth. Chinchou, Porygon, Magnemite, Foongus, Cottonee, Houndour, Ponyta, defensive Porygon, and non Calm Mind Spritzee are all also prone to being PP stalled by the same Resttalk set. Munchlax's Body Slam also carries a handy paralysis chance to cripple specific switch-ins, while dealing decent damage to frailer Pokemon as well due to Munchlax's naturally high Attack stat.
I can't speak for the Berry Juice set because I haven't used it since Murktite, but I feel as if the Resttalk set is very underappreciated and could definitely rise in usage if stall teams do.

I'm also not sure how much more usage Archen will be receiving; as has been mentioned as well, Zigzagoon hasn't improved THAT much, so that's not a major new niche for Archen. I can see Bunnelby really putting Wild Charge to good use in the current metagame; this would probably be mostly for Archen, but it also OHKOs Gastly, and the only notable immunity to it is Chinchou, who wouldn't appreciate any of Bunnelby's other moves, making it slightly more spammable. I doubt Archen will see a drop, of course; it still retains its incredible advantages from the Misdreavus era.

As for stallbreakers ruining stall, I really don't think this will be the case; even in other tiers where stall flourishes, there are stallbreakers. This is probably in part due to how many stallbreakers often have far more trouble holding their own against offense, rendering them quite situational and often overlooked as a result. Even disregarding that, Munchlax has plenty of uses on a stall team, and can easily take out Gastly and Abra, as mentioned above. It also helps that even on offensively weak stall teams, all three of Gastly/Abra/Cranidos will have trouble actually getting into play. Cranidos will probably be a larger issue for stall teams than Gastly and Abra, but it is also arguably less viable overall than either because it struggles to actually accomplish anything against more offensive teams without significant support, whereas the former two can still pose as revenge-killers of sorts to slower Pokemon.

@ Glass below
Indeed it is, but
+2 236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Iron Head vs. 156 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 19-23 (82.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 236 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 156 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 236 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 15-18 (60 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Iron Head vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 19-23 (76 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Foongus: 22-27 (88 - 108%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 212+ Def Hippopotas: 19-23 (82.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 236 Atk Life Orb burned Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Ponyta: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO
+2 236 Atk burned Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Ponyta: 8-9 (38 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

All of which are fantastic Pokemon on stall, and nearly every competent stall team, unless specifically built otherwise, should have at least one or two of.
Life Orb SD Pawn can beat Foongus, which Eviolite SD Pawn loses to, while Eviolite SD Pawn comes out on top against Hippopotas switch-ins, something LO SD Pawn will usually not be able to do; however, both share mutual checks in Mienfoo, Timburr, and Ponyta. In addition, it is extremely easy to distinguish which variant the Pawniard is if it tries to go for the Knock Off at any point. Both Pawniard variants are also very easy to wear down, LO Pawn moreso, something stall teams are absolutely capable of doing.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

Levi, SD Pawn is a perfectly dangerous and viable stallbreaker who's fantastic on offense...

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Stall is definitely viable in Little Cup, and has been for a while, even with things like Misdreavus and Fletchling roaming about. I went 46-5 on the latest suspect ladder with triple Regenerator stall and Porygon. I only legitimately lost one time with it and the others were to critical hits and 2 Tri Attack freezes. Now that Misdreavus is gone, it's going to be even easier to use as long as the player is careful.

Remember the stall god that Trubbish was and that its biggest problem was being setup bait for Missy? Well, its biggest problem is now nonexistent. It's also a great partner for Munchlax, which is now notably harder to inflict with burn status with the absence of Misdreavus. Munchlax also makes quick work of this new Life Orb Gastly thing that everyone keeps hyping, since it sponges special hits easily and has Pursuit to trap and kill Gastly, and will kill it without it trying to switch if it's already used attacking moves a few times. Gastly could run Will-O-Wisp to try and help with this, but then it won't be able to have 2 STAB attacks, HP Fighting for Pawniard, and Substitute on one set, so it's going to be missing something, while Munchlax can just recover back health and have Rest or Aromatherapy support to get rid of the burn. Gastly will not be able to last and you can't reliably pass Wishes to it.

I believe Abra has the highest SpA in the tier, run Life Orb on that sucker now that Scarf Pawn should fall in usage, and destroy everything.

You're forgetting Sucker Punch. Also, Solosis ties with Abra for highest Special Attack in Little Cup.

Scarf Cranidos or Web Cranidos should rise in usage as well. These are the ultimate stallbreakers imo, and I don't think stall really has a place in LC tbfh.

Cranidos is indeed powerful, but it's destroyed by priority moves, making any support it uses for a Speed advantage not matter in a lot of cases. Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, and Aqua Jet all beat it with little effort. Drilbur is common enough to discourage it from being used very much anyway. The best stallbreakers in the tier are Fletchling + Diglett (no matter how "prepared for it" everyone is), Bunnelby, and Cottonee. Those are all guaranteed to mess with stall if used properly. You would just need to add Wild Charge to Bunnelby as Corporal Levi mentioned or accompany them with something that can deal with Archen. As far as Pawniard goes, good luck having it switch into Regenerator mons without being hit with paralysis. Additionally, any specially based Pokemon can slap on HP Fighting specifically for that and be done with it easily, and Trubbish outspeeds it and is guaranteed to survive Life Orb Knock Off or Sucker Punch from it while also OHKOing it with Drain Punch and recovering any lost health in the process.

 

[Slashari]

I feel that this guy has become even more of a monster with Missy gone:

Abra @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psychic
​

Although Missy hasn't been removed from the ladder at this point, a lot less people are running it, and I've found Sub LO Abra to be an even bigger threat than it previously was. With Missy gone, Abra finds more opportunities to get up a sub, and can proceed to wreck from there. It has great coverage, and sub lets it avoid Sucker Punches from evio Pawn, which I'm predicting will become more popular. It destroys stall teams, can avoid status from things like Porygon, and generally demolishes stuff. It's also a great check to non-scarf Gastly, a Mon that is sure to rise in usage. Overall, Sub LO transforms Abra from a revenge killer into a great late game cleaner and good all-around win condition.

 

[Superpowerdude]

I feel that this guy has become even more of a monster with Missy gone:

Abra @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psychic
​

Although Missy hasn't been removed from the ladder at this point, a lot less people are running it, and I've found Sub LO Abra to be an even bigger threat than it previously was. With Missy gone, Abra finds more opportunities to get up a sub, and can proceed to wreck from there. It has great coverage, and sub lets it avoid Sucker Punches from evio Pawn, which I'm predicting will become more popular. It destroys stall teams, can avoid status from things like Porygon, and generally demolishes stuff. It's also a great check to non-scarf Gastly, a Mon that is sure to rise in usage. Overall, Sub LO transforms Abra from a revenge killer into a great late game cleaner and good all-around win condition.

Agreed, I have been using this on the ladder and its awesome. With less 19 speed threats, abra doesn't need a sash to revenge kill things and because of the switches it causes coming in on a Mienfoo or a Foongus you can easily get a free sub up and having a free sub with 19 speed and 20 special attack usually means that something is going to get Ko'd. Another interesting thing is the lack of the need to run Shadow Ball now with Missy gone. Dazzling Gleam and Hp Fighting can be run on the same set which gives you great coverage against steels and dark-types. This makes Abra very difficult to wall. Gastly may rise but no need to have Shadow Ball if Psychic beats it. Even Energy Ball could be used more easily now although it is outclassed still, despite not having to waste a moveslot on Shadow Ball. Another thing I urge people to try in place of Shadow Ball is Knock Off. Using Knock Off on Porygon or Munchlax switch ins will make them much easier to break through for team mates.

I agree with Slashari, Abra is going to become an even bigger threat and we will be seeing more than just Focus Sash Abra sets.

 

[tcr]

Stall is definitely viable in Little Cup, and has been for a while, even with things like Misdreavus and Fletchling roaming about. I went 46-5 on the latest suspect ladder with triple Regenerator stall and Porygon. I only legitimately lost one time with it and the others were to critical hits and 2 Tri Attack freezes. Now that Misdreavus is gone, it's going to be even easier to use as long as the player is careful.

Congrats! you beat crappy ladder people. Unfortunately stall is not really that viable, unless you know 100% how to play it and are manipulating each turn. If you are doing that, you could probably run dumb sets like Nincada and win too so it doesn't really say much. Stall isn't viable because there are incredibly strong Pokemon (Archen Bunnelby, Cranidos) but there arent any "incredibly bulky" Pokemon like there are in OU. Defensive stats are so low, Archen's defensive stats are considered "good." This means you have to worry more about prediction and type synergy than any other team comp, as well as finding means to wear them down, be it oer 200 turns or through hazards, which any competent player be able to clear and stop recovery. Legit, it only takes one Pokemon with Taunt to stop most Stall.

Remember the stall god that Trubbish was and that its biggest problem was being setup bait for Missy? Well, its biggest problem is now nonexistent. It's also a great partner for Munchlax, which is now notably harder to inflict with burn status with the absence of Misdreavus.

Now I'm not entirely sure if you are trolling. Trubbish has never been a stall god, in fact it is basically any sort of momentum killer, and only useful for beating Mienfoo / Pawniard. It is nt harder to inflict burn status, especially since lol you just hyped Pokemon like Ponyta a few posts up. Pokemon like Chinchou / Ponyta / Larvesta / Growlithe / Phantump / Pumpkaboo / Duskull are still very much viable, and diverse enough to be able to spread burns. That statement is just factually wrong, if anything there are more users of WIll o Wisp, since Missy left, as now people have more options as to which ghost type they want, they have more options to stop physical attackers.

Munchlax also makes quick work of this new Life Orb Gastly thing that everyone keeps hyping, since it sponges special hits easily and has Pursuit to trap and kill Gastly, and will kill it without it trying to switch if it's already used attacking moves a few times. Gastly could run Will-O-Wisp to try and help with this, but then it won't be able to have 2 STAB attacks, HP Fighting for Pawniard, and Substitute on one set, so it's going to be missing something, while Munchlax can just recover back health and have Rest or Aromatherapy support to get rid of the burn. Gastly will not be able to last and you can't reliably pass Wishes to it.

.

you do realize that that is essentially what happeeend to missy as well? Munchlax could very easily "run rest, or have aroma support to stop burns." Did it matter? no. On teams where Missy was used, there was too much pressure to eer allow that situation to happen. The same thing with Gstly. Not to mention there are other viable sets such as SubDisable.

Cranidos is indeed powerful, but it's destroyed by priority moves, making any support it uses for a Speed advantage not matter in a lot of cases. Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, and Aqua Jet all beat it with little effort. Drilbur is common enough to discourage it from being used very much anyway. The best stallbreakers in the tier are Fletchling + Diglett (no matter how "prepared for it" everyone is), Bunnelby, and Cottonee.

LOL? A total if maybe 5 relevant Pokemon run all 3 of those priority attacks. You can argue paper thn defenses and weakness to priority all you want, those moves are almost never relevant, unless you are facing Timburr / Croagunk / Tirtouga / Carvahna / lol Magby.

 

[doomsday doink]

Munchlax also makes quick work of this new Life Orb Gastly thing that everyone keeps hyping, since it sponges special hits easily and has Pursuit to trap and kill Gastly, and will kill it without it trying to switch if it's already used attacking moves a few times. Gastly could run Will-O-Wisp to try and help with this, but then it won't be able to have 2 STAB attacks, HP Fighting for Pawniard, and Substitute on one set, so it's going to be missing something, while Munchlax can just recover back health and have Rest or Aromatherapy support to get rid of the burn. Gastly will not be able to last and you can't reliably pass Wishes to it.

Life Orb Gastly isn't the only threatening set. I don't know why it's not getting the attention that it deserves, but SubDisable is fantastic and it lets Gastly reliably handle not only Munchlax, but beat Mienfoo, Timburr, Scraggy, Bunnelby and anything else that only has one solid means of hitting Ghost-types. It also lets it get around status and handle set up sweepers a lot better than the LO set can, and although you miss out on some power, the longevity and utility of Substitute and Disable is greatly appreciated. And if you decide not to use Disable, switching out behind a Substitute is a much better option because you can take a Pursuit if your opponent decides to use it. If the problem is Munchlax being able to Rest, then just switch into something else when it goes to sleep. You only mention the one Gastly set, and although it might be common, that's kinda like only addressing Dazzling Gleam Misdreavus and completely ignoring the potential HP Fighting.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Congrats! you beat crappy ladder people. Unfortunately stall is not really that viable, unless you know 100% how to play it and are manipulating each turn. If you are doing that, you could probably run dumb sets like Nincada and win too so it doesn't really say much. Stall isn't viable because there are incredibly strong Pokemon (Archen Bunnelby, Cranidos) but there arent any "incredibly bulky" Pokemon like there are in OU. Defensive stats are so low, Archen's defensive stats are considered "good." This means you have to worry more about prediction and type synergy than any other team comp, as well as finding means to wear them down, be it oer 200 turns or through hazards, which any competent player be able to clear and stop recovery. Legit, it only takes one Pokemon with Taunt to stop most Stall.

Now I'm not entirely sure if you are trolling. Trubbish has never been a stall god, in fact it is basically any sort of momentum killer, and only useful for beating Mienfoo / Pawniard. It is nt harder to inflict burn status, especially since lol you just hyped Pokemon like Ponyta a few posts up. Pokemon like Chinchou / Ponyta / Larvesta / Growlithe / Phantump / Pumpkaboo / Duskull are still very much viable, and diverse enough to be able to spread burns. That statement is just factually wrong, if anything there are more users of WIll o Wisp, since Missy left, as now people have more options as to which ghost type they want, they have more options to stop physical attackers.
.

you do realize that that is essentially what happeeend to missy as well? Munchlax could very easily "run rest, or have aroma support to stop burns." Did it matter? no. On teams where Missy was used, there was too much pressure to eer allow that situation to happen. The same thing with Gstly. Not to mention there are other viable sets such as SubDisable.

LOL? A total if maybe 5 relevant Pokemon run all 3 of those priority attacks. You can argue paper thn defenses and weakness to priority all you want, those moves are almost never relevant, unless you are facing Timburr / Croagunk / Tirtouga / Carvahna / lol Magby.

There are a few things you said which I don't think is correct. Saying that "all you need against stall is taunt" is a huge generalisation. Lickitung gets oblivious, making taunt useless and I believe Spritzees Aroma Viel does the same thing. Plus that statements very vague what Pokemon is using Taunt and how is it stopping stall from functioning? I know you were prolly exaggerating but having a Pokemon with Taunt doesn't shutdown stall completely. Say a Pokemon is on the field that knows spikes, toxic, toxic spikes, roar, recover, whatever and the Pokemon on your team that knows Taunt is not on the field, they are still going to be able to do whatever status move they need to.

I agree that Trubbish isn't a 'stall god' but I think your underestimating it a bit. "All it does is beat pawnaird and Mienfoo" idk about you but I think being able to beat two S ranks most of the time with the same set is pretty good and not something a lot of Pokemon can brag about. Yes it's a bit of a momentum killer but on stall? Who cares? Plus having the utility of setting up Toxic Spikes or Spikes gives it great uses apart from beating Mienfoo and Pawnaird. Also it's funny how you laugh at Trubbish being hyped up and then you hype up Duskull

Also even if there are heaps of Will-o users any stall team that is semi decent should have a heal bell or aromatherapy user examples being Lickitung, Spritzee, or Chinchou

Yes some wall breakers are expected to arise but arguably the biggest threat to stall has left the tier and Trubbish, Munchlax, Punkaboo, Slowpoke and possibly others will have a much easier time in this meta and all these mons fit great on stall.

Edit: stall is quite difficult to build, however they are 100% viable, and aren't shutdown by Taunt

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Congrats! you beat crappy ladder people.

Says the guy who had to go 51-24 on the same ladder to get reqs. Okay lol

Unfortunately stall is not really that viable, unless you know 100% how to play it and are manipulating each turn. If you are doing that, you could probably run dumb sets like Nincada and win too so it doesn't really say much. Stall isn't viable because there are incredibly strong Pokemon (Archen Bunnelby, Cranidos) but there arent any "incredibly bulky" Pokemon like there are in OU. Defensive stats are so low, Archen's defensive stats are considered "good." This means you have to worry more about prediction and type synergy than any other team comp, as well as finding means to wear them down, be it oer 200 turns or through hazards, which any competent player be able to clear and stop recovery. Legit, it only takes one Pokemon with Taunt to stop most Stall.

Eviolite and Berry Juice help enough with stall, and it can even work a lot of the time without them after part of the game is already played. Taunt does not stop Regenerator from working, and is really used mostly just on 17 Speed Mienfoo to shut down hazard lead Dwebble. I've literally never been helplessly beaten or even slightly inconvenienced by Taunt in Little Cup, and I never run offense; Lickitung and Spritzee are immune to it as well. Stall is fine... Defensive Porygon is great, Spritzee is great, Foongus is great, Ferroseed is great, Slowpoke is great, etc. Spreading status, recovering health, and using passive damage definitely works in Little Cup and is certainly viable, though it may not be your preference.

Now I'm not entirely sure if you are trolling. Trubbish has never been a stall god, in fact it is basically any sort of momentum killer, and only useful for beating Mienfoo / Pawniard. It is nt harder to inflict burn status, especially since lol you just hyped Pokemon like Ponyta a few posts up. Pokemon like Chinchou / Ponyta / Larvesta / Growlithe / Phantump / Pumpkaboo / Duskull are still very much viable, and diverse enough to be able to spread burns. That statement is just factually wrong, if anything there are more users of WIll o Wisp, since Missy left, as now people have more options as to which ghost type they want, they have more options to stop physical attackers.

Necessary Reading Assignment

I am not trolling at all. You do Trubbish a great injustice by saying it only beats Mienfoo and Pawniard, as it also walls/beats/forces out other important Pokemon such as Cottonee and Spritzee, and serves as a total Knock Off shield for the whole team, being beaten only by Drilbur, Archen, Abra (it can't switch in safely) and Pokemon that can set up. Being able to manipulate the game and cause so many Pokemon to switch out gives it lots of free turns to Recycle its Berry Juice and lay Spikes to support either a stall/balance team with passive damage or support a more offensive team by assisting with important KOs. I was not wrong in saying Trubbish's biggest problem is now gone in reference to Misdreavus's ban from the tier; it was widely accepted to be its most crucial disadvantage.

The other Will-O-Wisp users are not nearly as popular now as Misdreavus was before its ban, and everyone knows that. The new conventional users of it have not fully manifested as key users of the tactic in the tier yet. There's Ponyta and Larvesta, which are in no way as common as Misdreavus was. Give things time to settle down in the tier before saying for certain what the common users of a move or tactic are. Phantump and Pumpkaboo are kept reeling in fear from OHKOs from potent metagame titans such as Pawniard, Ponyta, and Fletchling, and even Drilbur can tailor itself to 2HKO them on the switch-in if they become that big of a problem for it. Also, you listed Duskull as a viable Pokemon that uses Will-O-Wisp but plainly said my post wasn't factual. Okay lol

.

you do realize that that is essentially what happeeend to missy as well? Munchlax could very easily "run rest, or have aroma support to stop burns." Did it matter? no. On teams where Missy was used, there was too much pressure to eer allow that situation to happen. The same thing with Gstly. Not to mention there are other viable sets such as SubDisable.

Life Orb Gastly isn't the only threatening set. I don't know why it's not getting the attention that it deserves, but SubDisable is fantastic and it lets Gastly reliably handle not only Munchlax, but beat Mienfoo, Timburr, Scraggy, Bunnelby and anything else that only has one solid means of hitting Ghost-types. It also lets it get around status and handle set up sweepers a lot better than the LO set can, and although you miss out on some power, the longevity and utility of Substitute and Disable is greatly appreciated. And if you decide not to use Disable, switching out behind a Substitute is a much better option because you can take a Pursuit if your opponent decides to use it. If the problem is Munchlax being able to Rest, then just switch into something else when it goes to sleep. You only mention the one Gastly set, and although it might be common, that's kinda like only addressing Dazzling Gleam Misdreavus and completely ignoring the potential HP Fighting.

This is quite different because Will-O-Wisp was more conventional for Misdreavus because it had the bulk, it could take a Pursuit from Munchlax if it had to, and Gastly has TWO STABs to fill moveslots for. Forgo Sludge Bomb and you'll hate it later when you want to finish off Spritzee; Gastly can't go +2 with Shadow Ball like Misdreavus can. Wish + Protect Spritzee with its everyday spread doesn't give a damn about Life Orb Shadow Ball from Gastly and can beat it down with Moonblast while healing itself and watching Gastly chip away at its own health. Calm Mind Spritzee could literally set up on it. And Disable doesn't work on Spritzee. How's that for stall being nonviable in Little Cup? ^_^

196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 9-13 (33.3 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)


I am not doubting the effectiveness of SubDisable Gastly. I'm saying that if you want to take up two moveslots for that when you have no bulk and no recovery, you're going to be missing something that you will end up needing... a LOT of the time. Using one set to justify taking on one or two things is not okay when you also want to cover so many other important things. I might as well also throw out there that Gastly can do nothing to Porygon damage-wise, so you'll need to use a Choice item and Trick to ruin it. SubDisable Gastly would need Sludge Bomb or HP Fighting to significantly hurt it (each has a 1/16 chance of 2HKOing with Life Orb, and this chance would become nothing if a Calm 236 SpDef spread was used, not too outlandish), but then what's your fourth move going to be? Shadow Ball? HP Fighting? Sludge Bomb? Will-O-Wisp? Dazzling Gleam? Taunt? What else are you going to take on? I'll wait.

196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)


Lol you'd kill yourself with recoil from Substitute and Life Orb while Porygon just spams Recover. Not running Sludge Bomb gets you beaten by Spritzee (ANOTHER STALL MON LOL). Not running Shadow Ball gets you beaten by Slowpoke (ANOTHER STALL MON LOL), Tentacool, and things that are embarrassing to lose to, like Koffing. Not running Hidden Power Fighting gets you beaten by Pawniard, a super-important threat that carries two Dark moves and laughs at Disable. And let's not forget that you must have Dazzling Gleam or Scraggy will set up on you. Quite a cramp for a Pokemon with no bulk, setup, or recovery. I'm not bashing it, but hey, at least Little Cup's stall mons have everything they need. :)

LOL? A total if maybe 5 relevant Pokemon run all 3 of those priority attacks. You can argue paper thn defenses and weakness to priority all you want, those moves are almost never relevant, unless you are facing Timburr / Croagunk / Tirtouga / Carvahna / lol Magby.

LOL? You can use Cranidos if you want, and I wish you luck. It ends up requiring more team support than it's worth in the majority of in-battle scenarios; it's always been that way and Misdreavus's absence is not going to change that.


On a closing note, Taillow has 19 Speed and OHKOes Gastly with Scrappy Boomburst regardless of Ghost-typing or any Substitute it may have up. It doesn't even need a boosting item to assure the KO if Gastly has Life Orb and has attacked just once in the match already. It could also switch into Shadow Ball, Disable, or Substitute for free if played correctly.

 

[Rowan]

TCR are you being dumb on purpose lol? Every tier has powerful wall breakers and stall is still viable. ou for example has mega mawile, megacham, megahera and loads more yet stall is still viable. In lc, we have the advantage of eviolite. Inb4 knock off... Any smart stall player will only let a maximum of two Pokemon get knocked off... You can usually pick out the knock off users during team preview and pick which mons are okay to lose their eviolite. And that's even without using trubbish or shellos.

 

[TUO]

Just a couple things that need to get settled in this argument. Stall (or defensive oriented teams) has only been tested in a legit setting by 2 notable users (Levi and Artemisa) who have had good enough success with it.

"Unfortunately stall is not really that viable, unless you know 100% how to play it and are manipulating each turn."

You could say the same thing about Hyper Offense, the premier style in the metagame. If you try to go ballzy offensive, mistakes are much more punishing to offensive playstyles than defensive ones, due to how much faster paced offensive playstyles are. You fuck up? You are forced to sack something that could have been a vital part of your offensive scheme. You fuck up with stall? welp most things have Regenerator on stall teams, or some way of reliable recovery, so there is a way of dealing with it. The idea of stall is to wait for the opposing player to make mistakes and capitalize on them by slowly killing the main win condition. Sure you're stall team might need some kind of revenge killer to do some damage. Personally I've been digging Scarf Chinchou/Amaura since they can deal with Fletch nicely. Even if you ignore that, you look at how all the wallbreakers now are extremely frail, and have extreme issues with status. Life Orb Doduo, Cranidos, and Gastly hate being burned/paralyzed, and a lot of Knock Off users just don't like being burnt/paralyzed. Sure there are means of getting around it, but you also have to consider. IS IT REALLY THAT HARD TO BREAK THE SUBSTITUTE OF A FREAKIN GASTLY? Gastly does give some mindgames with that sub set, but it can't really set up a sub against anything, outside of maybe foongus. Even then Gastly will have a hard time getting in on that foongus with stun spore, spore, or whatever the hell you wanna run.

Also, it appears like people are saying Gastly is gonna be almost as common as Misdreavus was, when Misdreavus was usually put as a 2nd option sweeper/wallbreaker on most teams due to its bulk and utility. Gastly is much more predictable and that frality really shows. Misdreavus could deal with a lot of pokes 1v1, Gastly can't.

If gastly does see that much of a rise in usage though, I think stuff like Munchlax would be cooler, as it's not really afraid of that burn anymore. Just remember that the metagame is not a ruleset, it is a group of strategies and psychological effect that goes beyond the normal ruleset of the format. Basically, the changes in the metagame depend on how YOU want to play. If people actually stick with the Normal-type hype, it will be meta. If people are just happy that Omanyte doesn't have to run Hydro Pump, then that's what will change in the "meta"

 

[tcr]

Says the guy who had to go 51-24 on the same ladder to get reqs. Okay lol

lol nice ad hominem there. Quality post from a quality user. Things like tilt are a factor, since i jammed for reqs in 2 days, and bc i actually use things i like instead of cookie cutter teams. Unlike you, I don't discard a mon simply because it looks bad or is anti meta. Seriously tho, nice ad hominem!

Eviolite and Berry Juice help enough with stall, and it can even work a lot of the time without them after part of the game is already played. Taunt does not stop Regenerator from working, and is really used mostly just on 17 Speed Mienfoo to shut down hazard lead Dwebble. I've literally never been helplessly beaten or even slightly inconvenienced by Taunt in Little Cup, and I never run offense; Lickitung and Spritzee are immune to it as well. Stall is fine... Defensive Porygon is great, Spritzee is great, Foongus is great, Ferroseed is great, Slowpoke is great, etc. Spreading status, recovering health, and using passive damage definitely works in Little Cup and is certainly viable, though it may not be your preference.

Yeah because Knock Off doesn't exist. you can argue "oh ill play around the knock off" but i think we both know that that rarely happens. Neither of us are anywhere close to being good enough to do that. Taunt doesn't need to stop regen from working lol. 1) that is a very centralized version of stall (could be argued its not even stall) and 2) if all you do is switch the entire time you have basically lost the battle. Common Pokemon are absolutely crippled by stall. Unless you run a dedicated anti stallbreaker counter you will be heavily devastated by taunt users which was my point that oyu seemed to fail to grasp (shouldnt really expect anything less of you i guess). You can say "oh ill just use spritzee" all you want, that doesnt discount your 5 other teammates that are completely useless when taunted. Having to always run Spritzee only furthers my point in my eyes, as that would mean only a select few Pokemon can be on stall teams, leading to a pre-determined matchup. Stall teams will either win or lose at team preview, which in my eyes means they are not viable. You have no option to "play around" you either win or you lose.

I am not trolling at all. You do Trubbish a great injustice by saying it only beats Mienfoo and Pawniard, as it also walls/beats/forces out other important Pokemon such as Cottonee and Spritzee, and serves as a total Knock Off shield for the whole team, being beaten only by Drilbur, Archen, Abra (it can't switch in safely) and Pokemon that can set up. Being able to manipulate the game and cause so many Pokemon to switch out gives it lots of free turns to Recycle its Berry Juice and lay Spikes to support either a stall/balance team with passive damage or support a more offensive team by assisting with important KOs. I was not wrong in saying Trubbish's biggest problem is now gone in reference to Misdreavus's ban from the tier; it was widely accepted to be its most crucial disadvantage.

Newsflash, Trubbish still loses to Gastly and literally every other Ghost-type. Missy leaving did nothing for it if the exact reason taht it had problems before appear in multiple newly viable Pokemon. The problem wasnt "missy" it was "ghost types that resist poison and are immune to drain punch" straight up walling its entire set. yeah it can lay down spikes lol but thats about it. It doesn't force out a lot. it forces out Mienfoo if its BJ was up, it forces out Pawniard if its BJ wasnt used, it forces out Cottonee not like that really means anything considering cottonee is purely support, and it forces out Spritzee, which is nothing considering it probably used wish and is passing to teammates anyway. its forced to constantly recycle on any medium sized hit, thus severely losing any momentum (btw whether you think so or not momentum is important even on stall teams). "being beaten ONLY by Archen Drilbur Abra" considernig those are 3 very common Pokemon in todays metagame (on so many teams its not funny, literally almost as common as Mienfoo / Pawniard) I would htink that being weak to those is kinda bad, especially since Abra and LO Drilbur are excellent wallbreakers to smash "stall" teams.

The other Will-O-Wisp users are not nearly as popular now as Misdreavus was before its ban, and everyone knows that.

... well I mean thats kinda obvious considering Misdrevus had ~40% usage and was literally just banned like a week ago :) Its ok tho, not everyone is smart enough to realize that the meta hasnt settled yet.

The new conventional users of it have not fully manifested as key users of the tactic in the tier yet. There's Ponyta and Larvesta, which are in no way as common as Misdreavus was. Give things time to settle down in the tier before saying for certain what the common users of a move or tactic are. Phantump and Pumpkaboo are kept reeling in fear from OHKOs from potent metagame titans such as Pawniard, Ponyta, and Fletchling, and even Drilbur can tailor itself to 2HKO them on the switch-in if they become that big of a problem for it. Also, you listed Duskull as a viable Pokemon that uses Will-O-Wisp but plainly said my post wasn't factual. Okay lol

I could honestly say the same thing about stall teams. No one knows if stall is good this meta, which is the whole point of this discussion thread. You are assuming that stall has already been proven flawless, and is 100% guaranteed to be this new meta, but counter stall options havent manifested yet because "the tier hasn't settled." Yeah I dont think that OHKOes from those Pokemon are going to deter usage much, considering that Pokemon such as Foongus rose last metagame, and will rise again. A weakness to Flying=/= nonviability lmao. You also list Ponyta as a "metagame titan." That made me chuckle lol.

This is quite different because Will-O-Wisp was more conventional for Misdreavus because it had the bulk, it could take a Pursuit from Munchlax if it had to, and Gastly has TWO STABs to fill moveslots for. Forgo Sludge Bomb and you'll hate it later when you want to finish off Spritzee; Gastly can't go +2 with Shadow Ball like Misdreavus can. Wish + Protect Spritzee with its everyday spread doesn't give a damn about Life Orb Shadow Ball from Gastly and can beat it down with Moonblast while healing itself and watching Gastly chip away at its own health. Calm Mind Spritzee could literally set up on it. And Disable doesn't work on Spritzee. How's that for stall being nonviable in Little Cup? ^_^

196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 9-13 (33.3 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)


I am not doubting the effectiveness of SubDisable Gastly. I'm saying that if you want to take up two moveslots for that when you have no bulk and no recovery, you're going to be missing something that you will end up needing... a LOT of the time. Using one set to justify taking on one or two things is not okay when you also want to cover so many other important things. I might as well also throw out there that Gastly can do nothing to Porygon damage-wise, so you'll need to use a Choice item and Trick to ruin it. SubDisable Gastly would need Sludge Bomb or HP Fighting to significantly hurt it (each has a 1/16 chance of 2HKOing with Life Orb, and this chance would become nothing if a Calm 236 SpDef spread was used, not too outlandish), but then what's your fourth move going to be? Shadow Ball? HP Fighting? Sludge Bomb? Will-O-Wisp? Dazzling Gleam? Taunt? What else are you going to take on? I'll wait.

196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)


Lol you'd kill yourself with recoil from Substitute and Life Orb while Porygon just spams Recover. Not running Sludge Bomb gets you beaten by Spritzee (ANOTHER STALL MON LOL). Not running Shadow Ball gets you beaten by Slowpoke (ANOTHER STALL MON LOL), Tentacool, and things that are embarrassing to lose to, like Koffing. Not running Hidden Power Fighting gets you beaten by Pawniard, a super-important threat that carries two Dark moves and laughs at Disable. And let's not forget that you must have Dazzling Gleam or Scraggy will set up on you. Quite a cramp for a Pokemon with no bulk, setup, or recovery. I'm not bashing it, but hey, at least Little Cup's stall mons have everything they need. :)

Lol? Tentacool? Koffing? LOL and apparantly Duskull isn't viable but these Pokemon are? Misdreavus had just as much of a 4mms as Gastly does, I don't really know why you are solely pinpointing Gastly. You can only hit Pawniard on the switch with HP Fighting anyway, as Scarf Pawn will still be popular to just clean up late game (and I doubt SD sets will run Pursuit. If you run Pursuit you give up a slot to beat something else LOL ANOTHER POKEMON). You don't need Dazzling Gleam anyway, Misdreavus almost never ran Dazzling Gleam and preferred hp Fight / Shadow Ball coverage so I don't really see your point there anyway. Recover would get Disabled, which you seem to miss the entire point of that (in fact you have seemed to miss the entire point of a lot of things. It was too much to expect a narrow minded player such as yourself to actually know how SubDisable Gastly works).

LOL? You can use Cranidos if you want, and I wish you luck. It ends up requiring more team support than it's worth in the majority of in-battle scenarios; it's always been that way and Misdreavus's absence is not going to change that.

lol again you missed the point of that. You said that Cranidos wasn't viable because of priority attacks completely shitting on it, which is the equialent of saying that Mienfoo isn't viable because Abra OHKOes it. Priority attacks are not that common to the point where just their existence deters Pokemon like Cranidos from being great. You obviously have not used Cranidos if you think that it is not a good Pokemon (legit all it requires is sticky web).

TCR are you being dumb on purpose lol? Every tier has powerful wall breakers and stall is still viable. ou for example has mega mawile, megacham, megahera and loads more yet stall is still viable. In lc, we have the advantage of eviolite. Inb4 knock off... Any smart stall player will only let a maximum of two Pokemon get knocked off... You can usually pick out the knock off users during team preview and pick which mons are okay to lose their eviolite. And that's even without using trubbish or shellos.

Like Briyella did you missed the point. OU has strong Pokemon defensively, like Hippowdon, Skarmory, Chansey, etc. Eviolite does not add that much bulk to them, where Pokemon like Porygon are 4hkoed by super effective moves. Often, powerful neutral hits 2hko them, which is why stall is not viable. Aegislash, the tier's best former stallbreaker supposedly, often had massive trouble with stall teams, due to only able to 3-4hko some Pokemon like Hippowdon. Little Cup is a fast paced metagame, where things are slightly bulky to the point where the preferred meta is always going to be Bulky Offense. Stall teams do not rely on their bulk to get through, they rely on living one or two hits, status, and hazards, which any good team will just outright stop.

 

[Superpowerdude]

TCR putting it out there now before I get into my post that this isn't me having a go at you, it's me expressing my opinion =)

Firstly can we all play nicely and keep thoughts about the way players team build away from here? It's not nice haha bringing up ladder scores and 'cookie cutter teams' will only start arguments friends!

Also TCR your just looking at the best case scenario with a Taunt user against stall. THE TAUNT USER WILL NOT ALWAYS BE ON THE FIELD and not every team carries a Taunt user either. Lots of bulky stall mons don't give a crap about being Taunted either Vullaby and Archen for example would no care about being taunted by a Mienfoo, neither would a Snubull and all these Pokemon could threaten Mienfoo. it's not like stall teams have no attacking moves! And switching in your Taunt user is actually pretty hard vs stall, you could get poisoned, paralysed, damaged by hazards, have item removed with Knock Off, it's very easy to think Taunt shuts down stall on paper but it doesn't, not by itself anyway. Also I would argue that having one of Lickitung or Spritzee is essential on stall not because they block taunt, but wish passing to bulky mons that lack recovery like Tirtouga or Tentacruel is a very good asset for stall to have. It doesn't make stall any more over centralising than having to run something that can wall Fletchling on all your teams

I agree with you that Cranidos is viable, it's things like being weak to common priorty and very frail that prevent it from being a top threat but it is not dead weight like a lot of people seem to think it is.

Tentacool is underated tbh. Hard to fit on common teams but it does great vs stall. With Liquid Ooze it makes for a good switch in to Cottonee, Foongus and Mienfoo as they hurt themselves with Giga Drain and drain Punch. It can provide Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin support for teams too. It's main downsides are no recovery and beaten by Drilbur and that's why wish passers are so good on stall for passing to mons that lack recovery. Drilbur can't switch into Scald to many times either :O