Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yeah, Gastly does learn Trick. Sorry that I messed that up. But it also doesn't have anywhere near the bulk of Missy, and so can't switch into to many attacks, even resisted ones. I think an interesting strategy to beat stall teams could be to use a pokemon with Knock Off and phazing. Not sure if that will work, but a Knock Off shuffler could be used if stall teams ever become prominent. It could even be good against balance. One pokemon the could do that I can think of to do this off the top of my head is Scraggy. It learns Dragon Tail and Knock Off, and is able to shuffle well due to good bulk and Shed Skin to shrug off status (though it is wrecked by Snubbull). What does everyone think of Knock Off shuffling, since items are so big in LC?

Edit: Also want to know what everyone thinks of Stick Web teams. They are a lot better after the Missy ban because now they don't have to deal with a 19 Speed pokemon with Levitate. They are still not very popular, and can still be wrecked by Pawn, But they are a lot better with Missy gone. I think they can succeed but,much like stall, need to prepare for some threats like Pawniard.
I personally like sticky web teams :O
Sticky web teams best setter is definitely surskit imo as he's the fastest one and STAB hydro hurts quite a lot. Surskit outspeeds standard defensive archen and brings it below 50%(defeatist) if not OHKOing it so it can set up sticky again right when archen defogs. Pawniard(defiant piplup *cough* *cough*) kind of hurts sticky teams' viability by a lot honestly although you could have a check like timburr or vacumm wave croagunk etc. Overall I feel sticky web teams and hold themselves quite well if they have the proper counters to certain threats and used properly :)
 

The Avalanches

pokemon tcg
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I personally like sticky web teams :O
Sticky web teams best setter is definitely surskit imo as he's the fastest one and STAB hydro hurts quite a lot. Surskit outspeeds standard defensive archen and brings it below 50%(defeatist) if not OHKOing it so it can set up sticky again right when archen defogs. Pawniard(defiant piplup *cough* *cough*) kind of hurts sticky teams' viability by a lot honestly although you could have a check like timburr or vacumm wave croagunk etc. Overall I feel sticky web teams and hold themselves quite well if they have the proper counters to certain threats and used properly :)
While I disagree strongly that Surskit is the best user of Sticky Web, SW Teams can be deadly with powerful users such as LO Foo, Cubone, Corphish, LO Bunny, Pawniard, Archen, Drilbur, Darumaka, and even more niche abusers like Doduo, Deerling and Larvesta. It's a whole lot of fun to use.
 

chimp

Go Bananas
is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
While I disagree strongly that Surskit is the best user of Sticky Web, SW Teams can be deadly with powerful users such as LO Foo, Cubone, Corphish, LO Bunny, Pawniard, Archen, Drilbur, Darumaka, and even more niche abusers like Doduo, Deerling and Larvesta. It's a whole lot of fun to use.
I think the greatest misconception regarding SW is that you have to have a team built around it. It's a great support tool that can be used to help get around certain Pokemon like Abra and Ponyta.
 
I think the greatest misconception regarding SW is that you have to have a team built around it. It's a great support tool that can be used to help get around certain Pokemon like Abra and Ponyta.

Agreeing with this, I have had quite a bit of experience with Sticky Webs and I honestly think you only need one 'traditional' sticky web abuser e.g Bunnelby, Cranidos. EVERY POKEMON CAN BENEFIT FROM WEBS 17 speed Mienfoo can outspeed scarf pawn in webs which is huge because Pawnaird is a huge threat with Defiant, Abra benefits by being able to beat other sash Abra 1 v 1 and outspeeding like everything, scarf users can be revenge killed by it Pokemon that have Shell Smashed in webs will be revenge killed by It and all this while preserving its sash. If Foongus is in vs Timburr you can get a spore off before you get Eviolite Knocked Off. It makes many scarf Pokemon practically useless. You do not need Strong slow Pokemon to abuse webs although packing one of these Pokemon is usually preferred.


Also Surskit is definitely the best abuser. I prefer Scarf over sash because you get webs up quickly, you resist common priorty like Mach Punch and Aqua Jet so it can actually get some revenge kills and with Hydro Pump it threatens Archen and Drilbur the two most common hazard removers. spinarak and Sewaddle are completely useless vs Archen which can just Defog their webs.
 
Agreeing with this, I have had quite a bit of experience with Sticky Webs and I honestly think you only need one 'traditional' sticky web abuser e.g Bunnelby, Cranidos. EVERY POKEMON CAN BENEFIT FROM WEBS 17 speed Mienfoo can outspeed scarf pawn in webs which is huge because Pawnaird is a huge threat with Defiant, Abra benefits by being able to beat other sash Abra 1 v 1 and outspeeding like everything, scarf users can be revenge killed by it Pokemon that have Shell Smashed in webs will be revenge killed by It and all this while preserving its sash. If Foongus is in vs Timburr you can get a spore off before you get Eviolite Knocked Off. It makes many scarf Pokemon practically useless. You do not need Strong slow Pokemon to abuse webs although packing one of these Pokemon is usually preferred.


Also Surskit is definitely the best abuser. I prefer Scarf over sash because you get webs up quickly, you resist common priorty like Mach Punch and Aqua Jet so it can actually get some revenge kills and with Hydro Pump it threatens Archen and Drilbur the two most common hazard removers. spinarak and Sewaddle are completely useless vs Archen which can just Defog their webs.
I've really been liking Mienfoo under webs. The pseudo-increase in speed allows Foo to run a really powerful LO Reckless set that basically has no switch ins. Web is a great playstyle right now, as massive threats in this meta like Abra are basically neutered with it on the field, scarf mons are locked into a move and holding an item with little benefit, and a bunch of slow heavy hitters have the chance to shine. Most web teams beat HO, as those team archetypes typically rely on speed, as well as stall because of the sheer amount of wallbreaking power found on a web team. Really, the only downside of using Sticky Web is having to use a teamslot on an otherwise mediocre Pokemon. You just have to watch out for Petilil ;).
 
Wow loads of hype for SW right now, makes me want to try it so bad.

Honestly though I can't say that I've seen it all that much, and from the battles I've played against it, its not to hard to work around with a more bulky presence allowing you to not die and then OHKO/2HKO the opposing SW abuser then work your way through the rest. Saying that it is pretty annoying and does take people off their guard having to completely rethink which Pokemon outspeed each other, so the mind games are certainly there. Plus maybe it's just because I'm in lower ladder at the moment that the teams haven;t been too hard to fight against.

I've seen Ashley11 hyping Spinarak in the place of Surskit for web placement, apparently sashed with Sucker Punch + Swarm Megahorn allowing you to take down threats. Can't say that I've seen this working, just thought I'd mention it.

One other thing I have seen a lot of recently is speedy Fletchling, (seems to be either 13 or 14) outspeeding other Fletchling and getting on par with defensive Archen (!!) at 14 speed. Seems to work pretty well, especially against fletchling who want to try 1v1, and getting speed ties are always fun(?)
 

The Avalanches

pokemon tcg
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Bulky spinarak is the best webber for me. It can come on fighting-types and laugh at them, same for Foongus, Spritzee, Cottonee. It's slower than Surskit, but it can set webs up more than once if need be, and given Drilbur and Archens presence, this can be the case, as early game webs will pressure them out into removing them.
 
Bulky spinarak is the best webber for me. It can come on fighting-types and laugh at them, same for Foongus, Spritzee, Cottonee. It's slower than Surskit, but it can set webs up more than once if need be, and given Drilbur and Archens presence, this can be the case, as early game webs will pressure them out into removing them.
Though Dril and Archen are OHKO'd by Hydro Pump Surskit, allowing you to not need to keep reapplying
 

Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
Though Dril and Archen are OHKO'd by Hydro Pump Surskit, allowing you to not need to keep reapplying
This is true, but they aren't likely to switch in on Surskit, and they both tie with Surskit at 17 Speed, so this is a tossup, considering that Surskit isn't safe taking a Rock Slide from either one. Surskit can switch in on Drilbur's Rapid Spin and threaten it out after it has come in and taken Sticky Web's Speed drop, though.

236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Rock Slide vs. 36 HP / 20 Def Surskit: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
 

The Avalanches

pokemon tcg
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Though Dril and Archen are OHKO'd by Hydro Pump Surskit, allowing you to not need to keep reapplying
Spinarak has the advantage of checking Fairies, Fighters and Foongus, as well as having some nifty priority, Toxic Spikes, and an underrated defensive typing.
 
Guys you are comparing the incomparable. Both Surskit and Spinarak are nice, I tried both of them and I can't tell which one is better than the other as they both have their special niches: If you want speed and the ability to hurt Ground- and Rock-type Pokémon like Archen and Drilbur then go with Surskit, if you want to check Foongus and Fighting-type Pokémon + priority in Sucker Punch then go with Spinarak, it's easy.
 
Well if Archen or Drilbur don't switch into Surskit thats prolly a good things because it means you don't lose webs straight away. Also Surskit is less bulky than Spinirak but it can still live a few hits from stuff like defensive Mienfoo and has the speed to get up webs while resisting common priorty. Sure Spinirak has more bulk but when it gets Eviolite Knocked Off it is so easy to revenge kill before it can get up webs. A Non Stab Sucker Punch of like 15 atk isn't that powerful unless your revenge killing an Abra or something and Surskit can do the same with Aqua Jet anyway.

Yes Surskit can't deal with fighting types (as well) or foongus or Fairies like spinarak, however for a Sticky Web user dealing with common hazard removers like Archen and Drilbur are way more important so they don't just switch in the turn after and remove webs. I have used both Sash and Eviolite Spinirak and I couldn't really set up Sticky Webs easily.

Also try fitting Toxic Spikes on a mon that's easy to Defog / spin against is difficult I prefer Toxic / webs / mega horn / spunch. It does have it's small niche over Surskit as The Avalanches mentioned, but I think overall Surlsit outclasses it

Dhaora yeah bulky teams seem to do good against sticky web but remember a lot of sticky web users can 2hko most walls (bunnelby, cranidos, LO Pawnaird) Also a lot of lower ladder players just have downright terrible webs teams as they are pretty hard to make properly so it often gives people the impression that webs is a gimmick. The best play style vs web would have to be Trick Room because you can make the speed drops totally useless and it's practically a 5 v 6 from the get go with all sticky web users having no use on a competitive team if it wasn't for that move
 

Lemonade

WOOPAGGING
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Fletchling is a bigger problem from Spinarak because it actually just can't do anything outside of Toxic, while Surskit at least threatens with Ice Beam. That's basically a free +2 which means you need really good answers for the bird if the opponent ever gets rid of webs and you want to get them back up.

Edit: more stuff
Contrary Inkay lategame is a secret threat if your fast things are gone.

Sash Abra is a god. It is now faster than everything except like Scarf Dig, Elekid, and Scarf Flyers / Levitators (so like Doduo? And Gastly I guess). And those things are pretty uncommon, so you pretty much muscle through teams no matter what part of the game it is.
 
Last edited:
Just pointing out that max speed Diglett outspeeds max speed Abra regardless of whether or not Diglett is scarfed, and Diglett is pretty common since Fletchdig is so popular. Jolly Aipom also messes with Abra via Fury Swipes, and tbh Aipom is working wonders on my new team.
 

Shrug

is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis a Past SCL Champion
LCPL Champion
V0x said:
Sash Abra is a god. It is now faster than everything except like Scarf Dig, Elekid, and Scarf Flyers / Levitators (so like Doduo? And Gastly I guess). And those things are pretty uncommon, so you pretty much muscle through teams no matter what part of the game it is.
Sash Abra is literally everywhere, it isn't fantastic though so much as annoying, you gotta work to remove it but it'll never do any real damage to your team. Nothing outspeeds it anymore but a lot can take an unboosted hit and KO back through its super-frail defenses. It's the sort of thing where most of the time you can find something that fits better on your team, but it's really irritating to see a ton of middle-ladder teams.
 
Abra is just behind Pawnaird, Mienfoo and Fletchling in viability IMO. Perhaps a lot of healthy mons can live an unboosted hit from it but any weakened threat can usually be taken out by its coverage moves. Also I don't get how your saying it won't do any real damage. With it's ability letting it always keep it's sash intact it can revenge kill practically any weakened threat. I'm pretty sure Koing a +2 Scraggy with Dazzling Gleam is doing damage. Remember Abra can also run a life orb set which is very hard to scout until it's to late, this set swaps revenge killing for being an insanely hard Pokemon to switch into which goes well with Sash Abra's ability to force a lot of switches because LO Abra is to powerful to switch into safely in most cases.

Also V0x response was about Abra in webs which is clearing up the myth that only slow powerful Pokemon have a place on sticky webs. Abra can outspeed most +1 Mons and all neutral Pokemon which can let it revenge kill Pokemon while still keeping it's sash which actually makes it a surprisingly good cleaner on Sticky Web teams and a Pokemon that can help you recover from mistakes since it's gauranteed at least 1 hit on a Pokemon and often two unless scarfed flyers, scarfed 20 speed pokes, or priority users are on the field.

Edit: dw Fiend Hound you're still droppin' knowledge
 
Last edited:

Fiend

someguy
is a Social Media Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Sash Abra is literally everywhere, it isn't fantastic though so much as annoying, you gotta work to remove it but it'll never do any real damage to your team. Nothing outspeeds it anymore but a lot can take an unboosted hit and KO back through its super-frail defenses. It's the sort of thing where most of the time you can find something that fits better on your team, but it's really irritating to see a ton of middle-ladder teams.
Um, what? Abra hits 19 speed, which actually outspeed quite a bit. The only things that outspeed it are Voltorb/Elekid/Diglett and Scarf pokemon. Then of course there are speed ties you have to deal with, but as of right now, most other 19 speed mons are fairly rare. (Aipom is a bit too common for my liking though.) And imo Sashbra is fantastic. Why? You are able to shutdown almost any setup sweeper, save Shellder and something stupid like flinches. It is an amazing "glue" pokemon which enables HO teams to function oh so well. Ziggy gets to +6. Who cares, I have a full health Abra lying in the wings just for it. I stupidly let Scraggy get a Dragon Dance under its non-existent belt? Sashbra saves me.

EDIT: Sniped by SPD
 
Sash Abra is literally everywhere, it isn't fantastic though so much as annoying, you gotta work to remove it but it'll never do any real damage to your team. Nothing outspeeds it anymore but a lot can take an unboosted hit and KO back through its super-frail defenses. It's the sort of thing where most of the time you can find something that fits better on your team, but it's really irritating to see a ton of middle-ladder teams.
Abra is absolutely the best, most reliable revenge killer in the tier with its sash intact, and its Sub LO set is an amazing lategame cleaner. Abra is usually the best fit for a team looking for one of these two. Abra isn't meant to come in on bulky walls. It's meant to revenge kill, or clean later in the game when things are weakened. Also, Abra has and will see a rise in usage in high-level play, so I don't really understand your assertion that only mediocre players use it.
 

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the decade
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
For the record, Shrug's statement on Focus Sash Abra isn't entirely unfounded. Sash Abra was really frowned during the Swirlgar era and earlier because it simply failed to revenge-kill the top sweepers. However, the metagame has shifted drastically since then, rendering Sashbra significantly more effective and absolutely a legitimate choice for a team; these changes include the banning of CGCM Swirlix as a win condition that Abra couldn't stop, the banning of Gligar, and, to a lesser extent, Murkrow, as Defoggers, allowing entry hazards to become significantly easier to maintain, thus causing Sturdyjuice sweepers to become more difficult to support and Magic Guard more relevant, the banning of Meditite as the most potent offensive psychic-type, and a few others.

Regarding Sticky Web, I tried it a bit myself and wasn't as impressed as I would have liked, although it certainly didn't come off as underwhelming by any stretch, either. Surskit and Spinarak are, frankly, mediocre Pokemon on their own; their stats are average at best, and they don't have ridiculously potent abilities like Foongus or Bunnelby. They offer very little offensive or defensive synergy, relegating them to entirely a supportive role, and I rarely see them doing much more than getting webs and sometimes a single hit off. As such, I find it a waste to not have at least a couple of Pokemon on my team able to take considerable advantage of Sticky Web in the average game. Hazard removal is still prominent in the current metagame, and this is problematic when Spinarak and Surskit are so easily worn down. In addition, Sticky Web doesn't actually completely neuter key threats; although it renders Elekid and Abra much more easily dealt with, they are still able to pose as significant nuisances, even at -1 spe.
With that being said, sticky web still seems really solid for reasons we already know; it still seems to have a pretty nice match-up against both heavy stall, because of all the wall-breakers available, and straight-up hyper offense, because of how badly affected they are by the speed drop. I can definitely see it as a very relevant strategy in the current metagame, and something that makes Archen even more necessary on more offensive teams than it already is. I'm wondering if Defog Taillow could perhaps become a thing on HO, being immune to Sticky Web and able to get a quick (probably suicidal) Defog off.

One thing I've noticed is that the metagame has become much more centred around Ferroseed. As far as I know, it was mostly considered viable but not super duper relevant during murktite/early-mid missy, and certainly not something that needed to be specifically taken into account when teambuilding. Recently, though, I guess we've realized that Ferroseed, between its great support movepool and AMAZING typing, is actually really good; I've seen people stick Hidden Power Fire on random things the same way HP Fighting is run on random stuff to surprise Pawniard. Ferroseed is a great check for so many things in just one Pokemon, and is notably one of the few things that can safely switch into Omanyte twice; its great bulk and typing causes it to be a massive roadblock for a variety of sweepers. It also has a ton of utility, even outside of checking those Pokemon, possessing great moves such as Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Thunder Wave; I've been really liking it recently while using it myself, and I don't think I'm alone on this.
 
Yeah Ferroseed is absolutely amazing right now. Its typing is godly, allowing it to check things from Chinchou to Zigzagoon. It's also one of the few safe switchins to scarf Bunnelby, being able to avoid the 2HKO; however, LO can 2HKO it iirc. Many of its checks aren't too keen on switching in on it either due to the threat of Thunder Wave. Its only downside is a lack of recovery, but this is mitigated by its excellent defensive synergy with Spritzee which makes Wish passing much easier.
 
STALL IS ALIVE BITCHES!
Okay on a more serious note, fletchling and scraggy are really nice in the current meta, trubbish got better as tspikes can potentially stop a lot of moxie scraggy sweeps, and gunk shot does a nice amount to fletchling. Snubbull still has a great niche as a pair with snubbull, as restalk/heal bell can handle status.

Scraggy with moxie and high jump kick is OP. After the first KO there is almost no stopping it.
 

Fiend

someguy
is a Social Media Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Scraggy with moxie and high jump kick is OP. After the first KO there is almost no stopping it.
I think you simply don't have a check for Scraggy. And yes, Scraggy is a good pokemon, but it's not unstoppable in the slightest. Fletchling forces it out/revenges it, Spritzee tanks a +2 Poison Jab, Foongus doesn't care too much. Scraggy also hates burns which lets Ponyta check it decently. Timburr has potential to revenge it with a powerful Mach Punch. And if Scraggy is really that much of a problem, you could just use Sash Abra to dispose of it, although this isn't the best idea for a stall team.
 
Scraggy with moxie and high jump kick is OP. After the first KO there is almost no stopping it.
That post is 17 pages old.... and it was a different meta. Also any good stall team is rarely demolished by scraggy especially moxie. I would give examples but on my phone
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top