GlassGlaceon
My heart has now been set on love
Ya know, this post might be more effective if it was actually put in the viability rankings
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
- Thread starter Rowan
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This is stickied so does this count as bumping? :OOO
Anyway what are the main threats y'all address when teambuilding? I think the main things to watch out for are birds (doduo, tailow, fletch, archen), Missy, Pawnaird, fighting types (mienfoo, timburr, etc), chinchou, drilbur and stuff like shell smashers and other sweepers, and defensive Pokemon (Porygon, Cottonee, etc)
Also there are a few common trends that are present on the ladder.
Memento user (Cottonee / Missdreavus) + Diglett + Zigzagoon is a core I have seen a few times which is very powerful. I believe Diglet traps Steel-types that stop Zigzagoons sweep attempts while Pokemon like Cottonee and Misdreavus are good in their own right but by using Memento they allow Zigzagoon to set up Belly Drum and sweep
Diglet + Bird teams are also seen a lot for similar reasons, Diglett traps Steel-types that resist Flying and even stuff like non-scarf Chinchou can be trapped if Diglett can somehow enter the field.
Something I have quite liked recently is Corphish + Tirtouga. Corphish is walled by similar things to Tirtouga (Croagunk, Ferroseed, Porygon, Mienfoo, Chinchou, Timburr, etc so it can lure in stuff like this and Knock Off their Berry Juice / Eviolites and then weaken stuff with Crabhammer. Also people forget this thing has Superpower so it can often lure in stuff like Porygon and Ferroseed and absolutely destroy them I guesd this contradicts what I was saying before about ferro and porygon walling Corphish but what I mean is that people try bringing in those pokemon against Corphish often. Moveset is Knock Off / Crabhammer / Superpower / Aqua Jet. Adaptabilty Crabhammer is very powerful coming off 18 attack and Aqua Jet allows you to revenge kill weakened stuff. Corphish can work well with any physical sweeper that is walled by similar stuff to it because it brings those Pokemon in then it uses Knock Off and just hits hard.
On a side note, people around LC when I joined smogon may of laughed at my obsession with Bulky DD Corphish lmao
Anyway what are the main threats y'all address when teambuilding? I think the main things to watch out for are birds (doduo, tailow, fletch, archen), Missy, Pawnaird, fighting types (mienfoo, timburr, etc), chinchou, drilbur and stuff like shell smashers and other sweepers, and defensive Pokemon (Porygon, Cottonee, etc)
Also there are a few common trends that are present on the ladder.
Memento user (Cottonee / Missdreavus) + Diglett + Zigzagoon is a core I have seen a few times which is very powerful. I believe Diglet traps Steel-types that stop Zigzagoons sweep attempts while Pokemon like Cottonee and Misdreavus are good in their own right but by using Memento they allow Zigzagoon to set up Belly Drum and sweep
Diglet + Bird teams are also seen a lot for similar reasons, Diglett traps Steel-types that resist Flying and even stuff like non-scarf Chinchou can be trapped if Diglett can somehow enter the field.
Something I have quite liked recently is Corphish + Tirtouga. Corphish is walled by similar things to Tirtouga (Croagunk, Ferroseed, Porygon, Mienfoo, Chinchou, Timburr, etc so it can lure in stuff like this and Knock Off their Berry Juice / Eviolites and then weaken stuff with Crabhammer. Also people forget this thing has Superpower so it can often lure in stuff like Porygon and Ferroseed and absolutely destroy them I guesd this contradicts what I was saying before about ferro and porygon walling Corphish but what I mean is that people try bringing in those pokemon against Corphish often. Moveset is Knock Off / Crabhammer / Superpower / Aqua Jet. Adaptabilty Crabhammer is very powerful coming off 18 attack and Aqua Jet allows you to revenge kill weakened stuff. Corphish can work well with any physical sweeper that is walled by similar stuff to it because it brings those Pokemon in then it uses Knock Off and just hits hard.
On a side note, people around LC when I joined smogon may of laughed at my obsession with Bulky DD Corphish lmao
I agree at the moment my team runs a very similar core it is Corphish with Eviolite and Carvahna with Life Orb as a core it weakens heavy walls especially Ferroseed and Cottonee. A Plus 2 corphish is devastating.
+2 196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-12 (50 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 11-14 (50 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The only counter to this core is Crogunk and WA Chinchou well running Fletchling and Foongus take cares of those.
I am currently 3-0 in tournaments
My team is Fletchling, Corphish, Carvahna, Foongus, Mienfoo, Dwebble.
+2 196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-12 (50 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 11-14 (50 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The only counter to this core is Crogunk and WA Chinchou well running Fletchling and Foongus take cares of those.
I am currently 3-0 in tournaments
My team is Fletchling, Corphish, Carvahna, Foongus, Mienfoo, Dwebble.
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Hello, I'm running this thread now! As a way to increase activity in this thread, I am going to be posting topics of discussion (this could be anything from Pokemon, items, playstyles, types) for everyone to discuss. There is no set time limit on when a new topic will be posted, but it will probably be about every 4-7 days. Of course, feel free to continue discussing anything else to do with LC - this is the general discussion thread after all!
TOPIC #1 - GHOST-TYPES NOT NAMED 'MISDREAVUS'
Misdreavus is the most common Pokemon in Little Cup with a staggering 45% usage rate! Largely due to Misdreavus, most other Ghost-types don't get a look in when fighting for a team slot! This topic, aims to get people thinking about the roles of other Ghost-types in the tier.
Defensive capabilities:
Ghost-types hold resistances to Poison and Bug, alongside immunites to Fighting and Normal. However, Bug and Poison aren't the most common attacking types, whilst most Normal and Fighting-types carry Dark-type coverage to hit Ghosts. A weakness to Knock Off and Pursuit is especially hurtful, as Knock Off is extremely common and Pursuit can trap them. So what type of Pokemon can Ghost-types wall, and is there room for defensive Ghosts in the metagame?
Offensive capabilities:
As an attacking move, Ghost has good neutral coverage, only missing out on Normal- and Dark-types, and hitting opposing Ghosts and Psychics super effectively. However, many Ghosts lack the Speed or Offensive stats to abuse their good coverage.
Support capabilities:
Most Ghost-types have good support movepools, with moves such as Will-o-Wisp, Destiny Bond, Imprison, Trick Room, Taunt, and Disable allowing them to disrupt the opposition. This can make Ghost-types difficult to play around.
Some notable, non-Misdreavus ghosts:
If you say a Ghost-type that isn't Misdreavus, Gastly is the one that immediately springs to mind, and it is arguably the most viable. With good Speed and Fantastic Special Attack, alongside good coverage, Gastly is a fantastic Special Attacker. However, due to its slightly lower speed and much lower bulk, its often claimed to be outclassed by Misdreavus. What sets can Gastly run which give it a niche over Missy as a special attacker?
Drifloon's main niche lies in Unburden, allowing it to double its speed once an item is consumed. Most of the time this allows Drifloon, to use Substitute, Berry Juice, Acrobatics and fast Destiny Bond to take full advatage of Unburden. What other ways can Drifloon take advantage of its ability? Can it use Aftermath or Flare Boost with any success?
Honedge, was very common when Meditite was in the tier as it resisted every single one of its common moves. Its usage has decreased immensely since Meditite's ban. Honedge has a good Attack, alongside Autotomize and Swords Dance. It also has a fantastic Defense stat, alongside a unique defensive typing. Do these qualities give Honedge a niche in the metagame post-Meditite?
Frillish is an extremely bulky Ghost, with access to reliable recovery. However, with an offensive metagame and with Dark-type being an extremely common attacking type can Frillish cope in LC? Can it use its decent 65 SpA to carve an offensive niche for itself?
Grass/Ghost typing, is an ideal typing for a spinblocker in LC, as the most common rapid spinners, Drilbur and Staryu, have almost no way of beating them. Is this enough of a niche for Phantump and Pumpkaboo? What sort of sets can be run on these two Pokemon? What support do they need to succeed?
That's not all the Ghosts, but it's a starting point. Shuppet, Duskull, Yamask, Litwick and Golett are the remaining Ghosts. Do any of these have any notable niches as well?
Please contribute to this thread with thoughts on these Pokemon; their role in the metagame, what unique sets you may have, what support they require, and anything else related to our spooky friends!
TOPIC #1 - GHOST-TYPES NOT NAMED 'MISDREAVUS'
Misdreavus is the most common Pokemon in Little Cup with a staggering 45% usage rate! Largely due to Misdreavus, most other Ghost-types don't get a look in when fighting for a team slot! This topic, aims to get people thinking about the roles of other Ghost-types in the tier.
Defensive capabilities:
Ghost-types hold resistances to Poison and Bug, alongside immunites to Fighting and Normal. However, Bug and Poison aren't the most common attacking types, whilst most Normal and Fighting-types carry Dark-type coverage to hit Ghosts. A weakness to Knock Off and Pursuit is especially hurtful, as Knock Off is extremely common and Pursuit can trap them. So what type of Pokemon can Ghost-types wall, and is there room for defensive Ghosts in the metagame?
Offensive capabilities:
As an attacking move, Ghost has good neutral coverage, only missing out on Normal- and Dark-types, and hitting opposing Ghosts and Psychics super effectively. However, many Ghosts lack the Speed or Offensive stats to abuse their good coverage.
Support capabilities:
Most Ghost-types have good support movepools, with moves such as Will-o-Wisp, Destiny Bond, Imprison, Trick Room, Taunt, and Disable allowing them to disrupt the opposition. This can make Ghost-types difficult to play around.
Some notable, non-Misdreavus ghosts:
If you say a Ghost-type that isn't Misdreavus, Gastly is the one that immediately springs to mind, and it is arguably the most viable. With good Speed and Fantastic Special Attack, alongside good coverage, Gastly is a fantastic Special Attacker. However, due to its slightly lower speed and much lower bulk, its often claimed to be outclassed by Misdreavus. What sets can Gastly run which give it a niche over Missy as a special attacker?
Drifloon's main niche lies in Unburden, allowing it to double its speed once an item is consumed. Most of the time this allows Drifloon, to use Substitute, Berry Juice, Acrobatics and fast Destiny Bond to take full advatage of Unburden. What other ways can Drifloon take advantage of its ability? Can it use Aftermath or Flare Boost with any success?
Honedge, was very common when Meditite was in the tier as it resisted every single one of its common moves. Its usage has decreased immensely since Meditite's ban. Honedge has a good Attack, alongside Autotomize and Swords Dance. It also has a fantastic Defense stat, alongside a unique defensive typing. Do these qualities give Honedge a niche in the metagame post-Meditite?
Frillish is an extremely bulky Ghost, with access to reliable recovery. However, with an offensive metagame and with Dark-type being an extremely common attacking type can Frillish cope in LC? Can it use its decent 65 SpA to carve an offensive niche for itself?
Grass/Ghost typing, is an ideal typing for a spinblocker in LC, as the most common rapid spinners, Drilbur and Staryu, have almost no way of beating them. Is this enough of a niche for Phantump and Pumpkaboo? What sort of sets can be run on these two Pokemon? What support do they need to succeed?
That's not all the Ghosts, but it's a starting point. Shuppet, Duskull, Yamask, Litwick and Golett are the remaining Ghosts. Do any of these have any notable niches as well?
Please contribute to this thread with thoughts on these Pokemon; their role in the metagame, what unique sets you may have, what support they require, and anything else related to our spooky friends!
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I don't mean to be rude to people who like honedge or driftloon, but frankly they are below average pokemon this point in the meta. While driftloon can run a neat calm mind set, or sub acro, they are not very consistent. + it can't switch into crap besides ground type/normal type attacks, when the common normal types outspeed and knock off, bite or in munch's case (it doesn't outspeed but tanks every hit driftloon has), can just pursuit trap killing it in 2 turns, while driftloon can just dbond. SR weaknesses hurts to combined with its frailty. Now honedge is a little different in how bad it is. While it doesn't suffer from any major mechanic handicaps aside from the steel resistance loses. It has an impressive defense stat allowing it to tank knock offs pretty soundly, and therefore find suitable set up opportunities, and an above average offensive stat, with decent stabs, but the advantages end there. It has subpar special defense and hp, which causes even weak special attackers to dent it, such as vullaby with heat wave, which also runs knock off to cripple it even further. Also setting up doesn't mean it'll be able to pull of a clean/sweep. If it has automatize, then it can use dbond and use shadow claw, iron head, or sacred sword, but priority can still ruin it such as pawniard's sucker punch. Also automatize is pretty weak. SD has weaker stabs, and can still be revenged, easier than Auto.
I'd see these mons as being usable given right support, but generally not worth the cost of using them.
Gastly is an excellent choice of a mon, if you want to run an offensive ghost type thats not named missy. It has an amazing speed tier (screw 19ers), and a poison stab combined with steel losing its ghost resist make for a very scary mon. It also got dazzling gleam to make sure mienfoo and other fighting types die. Subdisable is annoying as ever for mons that only run knock off as mons to hurt ghost types, even pawniard will be less annoying if you disable knock off and switch to a mon that can tank an iron head easily. Scarf can be annoying customized, with knock off, explosion, trick, 4 attacks, all giving it incredible utility. hypnosis is hypnosis if you want to take the risk.
Now this may seem biased considering I bashed driftloon and honedge, and I have to admit it is, but that does not discredit the value this mon has. Like all ghosts, it has a knock off weakness, and a handicap in the current meta due to knock off spam. But like missy, the top ghost, it has a mix of defenses and offenses, allowing it to function with the right teammates. Its not a mon you can just put it, but when its in the right position, it can work like a charm. It has a secondary water typing, which gives it scald, while making it weak to chinchou, but it can also recover, allowing it to tank volt switches when its slower than chou. It loses to thunderbolt though, so this must be prediction based. It also has wisp like most ghost types, with the actual ability to handle fighting types, since knock off doesn't incapacitate it, especially if you run cursed body. Can also check fletch and drilbur.
Now on to the last 2 ghost types, the grass duo, phantump and pumpkaboo. For all intensive purposes I'll be referring to pumpkaboo super, as only it, and the smallest version are viable, and even small just subseeds fast, which is outclassed by cottonee. Phantump has harvest, which is a cool ability, and with it the ability to stall mons with some natural bulk, wisp and sub. It also has access to shadow claw, unlike pumpkaboo. Pumpkaboo has the ability to hold eviolite without losing its main niche, and frisk, a normally crappy ability made useful in LC. They both do pretty much the same things, like hard check chinchou and drilbur, while also having the ability to cripple switch ins, though not sure if harvest is broken by knock off, which would give pumkaboo the edge in deciding.
I'd see these mons as being usable given right support, but generally not worth the cost of using them.
Gastly is an excellent choice of a mon, if you want to run an offensive ghost type thats not named missy. It has an amazing speed tier (screw 19ers), and a poison stab combined with steel losing its ghost resist make for a very scary mon. It also got dazzling gleam to make sure mienfoo and other fighting types die. Subdisable is annoying as ever for mons that only run knock off as mons to hurt ghost types, even pawniard will be less annoying if you disable knock off and switch to a mon that can tank an iron head easily. Scarf can be annoying customized, with knock off, explosion, trick, 4 attacks, all giving it incredible utility. hypnosis is hypnosis if you want to take the risk.
Now this may seem biased considering I bashed driftloon and honedge, and I have to admit it is, but that does not discredit the value this mon has. Like all ghosts, it has a knock off weakness, and a handicap in the current meta due to knock off spam. But like missy, the top ghost, it has a mix of defenses and offenses, allowing it to function with the right teammates. Its not a mon you can just put it, but when its in the right position, it can work like a charm. It has a secondary water typing, which gives it scald, while making it weak to chinchou, but it can also recover, allowing it to tank volt switches when its slower than chou. It loses to thunderbolt though, so this must be prediction based. It also has wisp like most ghost types, with the actual ability to handle fighting types, since knock off doesn't incapacitate it, especially if you run cursed body. Can also check fletch and drilbur.
Now on to the last 2 ghost types, the grass duo, phantump and pumpkaboo. For all intensive purposes I'll be referring to pumpkaboo super, as only it, and the smallest version are viable, and even small just subseeds fast, which is outclassed by cottonee. Phantump has harvest, which is a cool ability, and with it the ability to stall mons with some natural bulk, wisp and sub. It also has access to shadow claw, unlike pumpkaboo. Pumpkaboo has the ability to hold eviolite without losing its main niche, and frisk, a normally crappy ability made useful in LC. They both do pretty much the same things, like hard check chinchou and drilbur, while also having the ability to cripple switch ins, though not sure if harvest is broken by knock off, which would give pumkaboo the edge in deciding.
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Although far more frail and falling just short of 19 speed, Gastly has a major trait that separates it from Misdreavus, and that is its secondary Poison-typing. Running Sludge Bomb makes breaking through the likes of Porygon and Lickitung much easier and the 30% poison chance I also find relevant, possibly causing valuable chip damage to anything trying to take a hit. This move alone can free up a moveslot, as Dazzling Gleam isn't as necessary to touch Normal-types and Dark-types. Also, Spritzee cannot take a Sludge Bomb at all comapred to a Shadow Ball from Misdreavus.
Relevant Calcs in terms of wall breaking:
(Missy is Life Orb for the sake of damage comparison)
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 SpA Life Orb Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 10-13 (38.4 - 50%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 9-13 (32.1 - 46.4%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 SpA Life Orb Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 10-13 (35.7 - 46.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- In the case of Lickitung, you'll see that neither succeed in the 2HKO (generally) after SR regardless , however there is an additional 30% chance of poison fro Gastly, in which case Lickitung loses the fight.
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 23-31 (85.1 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 SpA Life Orb Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 9-13 (33.3 - 48.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The major thing setting them apart is the ease in which Gastly can break walls in comparison to Misdreavus, and of course it has the Sub Disable set, which can stop Lickitung from touching it with Knock Off and possibly stop Porygon from both touching it with Shadow Ball (assuming Shadow Ball/Tri Attack) and Paralyzing it with Thunderwave.
Although generally outclassed as a Ghost due to being extremely frail and a bit slower, it has better wallbreaking capabilities and a pretty nifty Sub Disable set. Hypnosis is also another move it has over Misdreavus, if you are willing to take the risk.
~maybe I'll talk about the other Ghosts after I actually try them out this Meta.
Relevant Calcs in terms of wall breaking:
(Missy is Life Orb for the sake of damage comparison)
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 SpA Life Orb Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 10-13 (38.4 - 50%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 9-13 (32.1 - 46.4%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 SpA Life Orb Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 10-13 (35.7 - 46.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- In the case of Lickitung, you'll see that neither succeed in the 2HKO (generally) after SR regardless , however there is an additional 30% chance of poison fro Gastly, in which case Lickitung loses the fight.
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 23-31 (85.1 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 SpA Life Orb Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 9-13 (33.3 - 48.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The major thing setting them apart is the ease in which Gastly can break walls in comparison to Misdreavus, and of course it has the Sub Disable set, which can stop Lickitung from touching it with Knock Off and possibly stop Porygon from both touching it with Shadow Ball (assuming Shadow Ball/Tri Attack) and Paralyzing it with Thunderwave.
Although generally outclassed as a Ghost due to being extremely frail and a bit slower, it has better wallbreaking capabilities and a pretty nifty Sub Disable set. Hypnosis is also another move it has over Misdreavus, if you are willing to take the risk.
~maybe I'll talk about the other Ghosts after I actually try them out this Meta.
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I absolutely adore Drifloon, but I have never ever used it in XY. The loss of Flying Gem and Swirlix's reign of terror kinda stopped me from ever using my favourite this gen. Although I hear some people have success with the Endure + Weakness Policy set, I can see it coming from a mile off, and I tend to not use Knock Off on it. Flare Boost is a cool idea, but I haven't seen it used, so I'm unsure, but 24 Special Attack with decent speed could be fun to use. Aftermath could be used to get the last laugh on a Knock Off user on a support set, and Drifloon has a wide support pool.
He's my favourite ever Pokemon, and I should use him more, however gimmicky he may be.
He's my favourite ever Pokemon, and I should use him more, however gimmicky he may be.
RZL2000
Yeah Corphish works well with Carvahna too for the same reasons as Tirtouga, lures in and weaknens + uses Knock Off on similar Pokemon that wall Carvahna or can take a hit like Mienfoo, Spritzee, Chinchou, Foongus, Croagunk and its Superpower destorys Porygon and Ferroseed switch-ins.
Now to discuss the topic at hand... The most viable pokemon here seems to be using Gastly. I mentioned in another thread that a Life Orb setcould be a devastating wall breaker, Gastly has access to very good coverage moves and reaches 19 Special Attack with Timid, a Life Orb set with Sludge Bomb / Dazzling Gleam / Hidden Power Fighting / Shadow Ball would prolly 2HKO the whole metagame and it has access to Hypnosis which although somewhat unreliable, gives it a niche of Misdreavus.
Endure weakness Policy Drifloon could actually be pretty effective on the ladder although against competetent LC Players it may end up a waste of a teamslot. Seems fun to try on the ladder but not something to do in Tournaments haha
and interesting niche set that Pumpkaboo could use which hasn't been mentioned is a Trick Room + Destiny Bond set which can nab a suprise kill and let something come in for free to abuse Trick Room like Timburr, Offensive Porygon, etc Of course it also counters Chinchou and Drilbur which are very common like Kingmidas said
thanks for sparking some discussion Rowan!
Yeah Corphish works well with Carvahna too for the same reasons as Tirtouga, lures in and weaknens + uses Knock Off on similar Pokemon that wall Carvahna or can take a hit like Mienfoo, Spritzee, Chinchou, Foongus, Croagunk and its Superpower destorys Porygon and Ferroseed switch-ins.
Now to discuss the topic at hand... The most viable pokemon here seems to be using Gastly. I mentioned in another thread that a Life Orb setcould be a devastating wall breaker, Gastly has access to very good coverage moves and reaches 19 Special Attack with Timid, a Life Orb set with Sludge Bomb / Dazzling Gleam / Hidden Power Fighting / Shadow Ball would prolly 2HKO the whole metagame and it has access to Hypnosis which although somewhat unreliable, gives it a niche of Misdreavus.
Endure weakness Policy Drifloon could actually be pretty effective on the ladder although against competetent LC Players it may end up a waste of a teamslot. Seems fun to try on the ladder but not something to do in Tournaments haha
and interesting niche set that Pumpkaboo could use which hasn't been mentioned is a Trick Room + Destiny Bond set which can nab a suprise kill and let something come in for free to abuse Trick Room like Timburr, Offensive Porygon, etc Of course it also counters Chinchou and Drilbur which are very common like Kingmidas said
thanks for sparking some discussion Rowan!
Everything I would have liked to mention already has been, save Frillish.
Scarfed Frillish seems interesting; it has access to Water Spout and an decent, but not great, Special Attack stat. Frillish also manages to hit 14 speed if it's a +Speed nature so using scarf isn't completely out there. However, Frillish's move pool isn't superb and is of course weak to Knock Off and will faint to most Knock Offs. The fact that two fairly common scarfers (Chinchou and Scraggy) also manage to destroy doesn't help Frillish's case. Frillish just can't seem to get a break with Pawniard and Missy rampant either, as both make mince meat of the poor thing. Yet, the sheer surprise of a Choice Scarfed Frillish could be enough to salvage a kill on a switch in or clean late game (probably very unlikely though).
Defensively, Frillish might be able to carve itself a nice little niche. Most Fighting types can only 2HKO with Knock Off and Frillish can simply burn them and then proceed to hopefully recover or whatever the situation calls for. The exceptions to this are Scraggy, as after Stealth Rocks damage Knock Off manages to KO, and Timburr ,who will gladly be burned. However, Cursed Body hax can and will save you from a Knock Off\other SE move. If kept away from Knock Off, Frillish can successfully do it's job of walling with impunity.
I guess Shuppet and Duskull can make nice Trick Room setters, but Punkaboo heavily out classed both of them from my experiences. Gollett, Yamask, and Litwick also just seem like terrible liabilities on any team.
Scarfed Frillish seems interesting; it has access to Water Spout and an decent, but not great, Special Attack stat. Frillish also manages to hit 14 speed if it's a +Speed nature so using scarf isn't completely out there. However, Frillish's move pool isn't superb and is of course weak to Knock Off and will faint to most Knock Offs. The fact that two fairly common scarfers (Chinchou and Scraggy) also manage to destroy doesn't help Frillish's case. Frillish just can't seem to get a break with Pawniard and Missy rampant either, as both make mince meat of the poor thing. Yet, the sheer surprise of a Choice Scarfed Frillish could be enough to salvage a kill on a switch in or clean late game (probably very unlikely though).
Defensively, Frillish might be able to carve itself a nice little niche. Most Fighting types can only 2HKO with Knock Off and Frillish can simply burn them and then proceed to hopefully recover or whatever the situation calls for. The exceptions to this are Scraggy, as after Stealth Rocks damage Knock Off manages to KO, and Timburr ,who will gladly be burned. However, Cursed Body hax can and will save you from a Knock Off\other SE move. If kept away from Knock Off, Frillish can successfully do it's job of walling with impunity.
I guess Shuppet and Duskull can make nice Trick Room setters, but Punkaboo heavily out classed both of them from my experiences. Gollett, Yamask, and Litwick also just seem like terrible liabilities on any team.
I think any ghost that has anyway of boosting speed has a massive niche with a fast destiny bond: Unburden Drifloon, Autotomize Honedge, and Trick Room+Destiny Bond Pokemon are all extremely irritating because a fast Destiny Bond is hard to play around.
I think Drifloon is definitely the most effective at this, and although I haven't tried it, Drifloon's typing means it would work really well as part of 'BirdSpam' as no other 'bird' can use Destiny Bond - kingmidas I fail to see what you have against Drifloon so much! Yes, it can't switch into things so much but it outspeeds a tonne of Pokemon before unburden, and can easily set up Substitutes. I also think Drifloon is the best user of SubDisable or SubHypnosis due to its ability to double its Speed to outspeed all scarfers (particularly, Pawniard!). It's interesting to see how Drifloon compares to Gastly in this role, but I guess it depends on which extra STAB you want, flying or poison.
Fiend Hound, although Defensive Frillish can use Will-o-Wisp and Cursed Body to help it, aside from Croagunk, and Riolu, what Pokemon can it actually wall well? Mienfoo and Larvesta annoying just U-turn out, whilst Ponyta can hurt it with Wild Charge or Solar Beam.
Also I have used Litwick before in a Trick Room team, as many Trick Room Pokemon don't resist powerful Fire STAB from the likes of LO Vulpix or are prone to moves such as Will-o-Wisp. Once Trick Room ends, something like Larvesta and Ponyta often come in and try to burn your Cubone or Cranidos or whatever sweeper you're using. Switching Litwick into a Will-o-Wisp allows it to set up Trick Room again, and even use boosted Fire Blasts to sweep (thanks to Flash Fire). It was definitely a good addition to my Trick Room team.
I think Drifloon is definitely the most effective at this, and although I haven't tried it, Drifloon's typing means it would work really well as part of 'BirdSpam' as no other 'bird' can use Destiny Bond - kingmidas I fail to see what you have against Drifloon so much! Yes, it can't switch into things so much but it outspeeds a tonne of Pokemon before unburden, and can easily set up Substitutes. I also think Drifloon is the best user of SubDisable or SubHypnosis due to its ability to double its Speed to outspeed all scarfers (particularly, Pawniard!). It's interesting to see how Drifloon compares to Gastly in this role, but I guess it depends on which extra STAB you want, flying or poison.
Fiend Hound, although Defensive Frillish can use Will-o-Wisp and Cursed Body to help it, aside from Croagunk, and Riolu, what Pokemon can it actually wall well? Mienfoo and Larvesta annoying just U-turn out, whilst Ponyta can hurt it with Wild Charge or Solar Beam.
Also I have used Litwick before in a Trick Room team, as many Trick Room Pokemon don't resist powerful Fire STAB from the likes of LO Vulpix or are prone to moves such as Will-o-Wisp. Once Trick Room ends, something like Larvesta and Ponyta often come in and try to burn your Cubone or Cranidos or whatever sweeper you're using. Switching Litwick into a Will-o-Wisp allows it to set up Trick Room again, and even use boosted Fire Blasts to sweep (thanks to Flash Fire). It was definitely a good addition to my Trick Room team.
I have to agree with what you said about fast dbond being annoying as hell (mega-gengar ubers), as it can break a core, or revenge kill at the cost of a mon. Also I had no idea driftloon had disable, probably because acro spam was so good last gen, that definitely makes it more diverse. I always favor mons capable of actually tanking hits, which is probably why I'd at least do honedge out of the two if I had to. You definitely changed my opinion somewhat on driftloon.
Also you'd want to go driftloon over gastly, unless you're worried about not outspeeding enough threats before the unburden. Flying stab is much more menacing in the current meta and will give more switches even if you don't have it. Fast foo can be annoying af though.
tbh Honedge isn't as bad as what people are making it out to be. Birdspam's popularity gives it a niche, as it can very well find an opportunity to come in and get a hit in. Look at what is currently being used. Fletchling and Misdreavus will hate taking a Shadow Sneak or a Rock Slide. The common check to Ghosts, scarf Pawniard, hates taking a Sacred Sword from an Automatized Honedge.
It's true that Honedge does have 4MSS, but it's still capable of being a threat to some top pokemon. Should we really ignore that?
It's true that Honedge does have 4MSS, but it's still capable of being a threat to some top pokemon. Should we really ignore that?
After testing Frillish as a defensive wall, I quickly saw that I was wrong about it being able to be viable defensively. I mean potentially things like Drilbur or Aipom can be walled, but Aipom can Knock Off Frillish's Eviolite and can nab the 2HKO will some high rolls if Aipom is Life Orb. I played around with it on the ladder, and it seems that 70% of the meta game can hit Frillish for SE damage. It honestly just cannot fit in this meta like I thought it would be able to from looking at it on paper. Sigh If only Knock Off, Volt Switch, and U-turn weren't so toxic for Frillish, maybe then it would be able to hold its own on a team.
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Honedge: 3-5 (14.2 - 23.8%) -- possible 5HKO
36 SpA Fletchling Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Honedge: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not really sure Honedge enjoys taking a one-two of Acrobatics + Overheat. Granted, these are some pretty bizarre sets, but keep in mind that Fletchling also has something to threaten the ghost sword.
Honedge is one of the most underrated Pokemon of all time, even without Meditite around.
1) Counters Fletchling; it can easily be EV'd to take Overheat + Acrobatics. Sets up SD on non Overheat variants.
2) Counters Spritzee and is a good alternative to poisons/other steels since unlike Magnemite, it doesn't need Sturdy to retain bulk etc.
3) Great sweeper late game, with Abra and Misdreavus everywhere Shadow Sneak becomes an excellent cleaning tool.
4) BULK like can take a Knock Off and Archen EQ (iirc) among other things. Even takes a Missy Shadow Ball most of the time (SD + Sneak is awesome).
5) Offensive pressure, not many things can switch in, especially if paired with a Knock Off user who can do work on Mienfoo and Timburr.
1) Counters Fletchling; it can easily be EV'd to take Overheat + Acrobatics. Sets up SD on non Overheat variants.
2) Counters Spritzee and is a good alternative to poisons/other steels since unlike Magnemite, it doesn't need Sturdy to retain bulk etc.
3) Great sweeper late game, with Abra and Misdreavus everywhere Shadow Sneak becomes an excellent cleaning tool.
4) BULK like can take a Knock Off and Archen EQ (iirc) among other things. Even takes a Missy Shadow Ball most of the time (SD + Sneak is awesome).
5) Offensive pressure, not many things can switch in, especially if paired with a Knock Off user who can do work on Mienfoo and Timburr.
Lots of good points about Honedge there, Heysup. It can definitely carve a niche for itself with STAB Shadow Sneak, Steel-typing and good physical Attack+Defense.
It's a shame you didn't have much success with defensive Frillish, Fiend Hound, but I still think STAB Water Spout is still a cool niche which allows it to go down a more offensive route.
Topic #2 - Stall
this topic is going to have a shorter introduction to allow people to get the ball rolling before I add my own input.
LC is known for being unfriendly to stall teams unless your name is user: Eo Ut Mortus. However, I believe there are plenty of Pokemon out there that can make stall successful in XYLC.
Spritzee and Lickitung have great niches as significantly bulky Wish-passers. We also have plenty of hazard setters that can counter a wide variety of Pokemon, such as Omanyte, Ferroseed and Trubbish. And then there's some generally bulky, useful Pokemon such as Porygon, Chinchou, Archen, Tentacool and Cottonee, alongside many more!
So, is stall a viable playstyle in LC?
What Pokemon are necessary to include on a Stall-team?
How do you go about building stall?
Is the move 'Toxic' necessary?
How do you control hazards on both your side of the field, and the opponents side?
How do you counter opposing stall teams?
How does stall match up against Bulky Offense, Balance and Hyper Offense?
Are there any Pokemon which aren't considered useful in LC, but can create a niche for themselves in stall?
Anybody willing to give examples of stall teams and how they work would be greatly appreciated.
It's a shame you didn't have much success with defensive Frillish, Fiend Hound, but I still think STAB Water Spout is still a cool niche which allows it to go down a more offensive route.
Topic #2 - Stall
this topic is going to have a shorter introduction to allow people to get the ball rolling before I add my own input.
LC is known for being unfriendly to stall teams unless your name is user: Eo Ut Mortus. However, I believe there are plenty of Pokemon out there that can make stall successful in XYLC.
Spritzee and Lickitung have great niches as significantly bulky Wish-passers. We also have plenty of hazard setters that can counter a wide variety of Pokemon, such as Omanyte, Ferroseed and Trubbish. And then there's some generally bulky, useful Pokemon such as Porygon, Chinchou, Archen, Tentacool and Cottonee, alongside many more!
So, is stall a viable playstyle in LC?
What Pokemon are necessary to include on a Stall-team?
How do you go about building stall?
Is the move 'Toxic' necessary?
How do you control hazards on both your side of the field, and the opponents side?
How do you counter opposing stall teams?
How does stall match up against Bulky Offense, Balance and Hyper Offense?
Are there any Pokemon which aren't considered useful in LC, but can create a niche for themselves in stall?
Anybody willing to give examples of stall teams and how they work would be greatly appreciated.
Well I think stall is a very difficult playstyle to play in such an offensive tier, especially with Knock Off gaining a buff and Mienfoo + Pawnaird everywhere losing a 1.5x boost in both defenses due to getting eviolite knocked off really hampers stall, also the rise of Defog which is impossible to spin block makes it harder for defensive teams to abuse hazards. I plan on attempting to make a stall team later and post it in this thread but there are a few pokemon that are able to succesfully wall common pokemon in the tier and I think for a stall team to be succesful, they need a way around the following
Powerful special attackers; Misdreavus, Abra, etc (things like Porygon, Lickitung work here)
Fighting-types; Mienfoo, Timburr, Scraggy especially (Clear Smog Foongus, Spritzee, bulky poison types help with these)
Birds; Tailow, Fletch, Doduo (Defensive Tirtouga, Archen, Chinchou beat these)
Have something for Knock Off users; Having something that can threaten both Pawnaird and Mienfoo is especially important here so they can't keep abusing Knock Off, so Acrobatics Mienfoo or Hp Fight Foongus are all I can think of atm that deal with both well.
Have good type synergy - no brainer on stall
Be able to stop set up sweepers - running a Cottonee with Encore or something with Clear Smog, phazing etc you need a way to prevent pokemon from setting up.
Hazards - important on stall whether it be for phazing with Dragon Tail Lickitung to do damage, or toxic spikes stalling with Protect using mons.
Defensive Misdreavus - so you can prevent Drilbur from spinning (this one isn't really essential but its very important to consider imo)
keep in mind I haven't tried stall before in LC for obvious reasons so what I have up is what I believe will be important for stall in lc. Anyone with actual experience in this has something to share? Remember stall can be fun despite its difficulty to pull off :P
Powerful special attackers; Misdreavus, Abra, etc (things like Porygon, Lickitung work here)
Fighting-types; Mienfoo, Timburr, Scraggy especially (Clear Smog Foongus, Spritzee, bulky poison types help with these)
Birds; Tailow, Fletch, Doduo (Defensive Tirtouga, Archen, Chinchou beat these)
Have something for Knock Off users; Having something that can threaten both Pawnaird and Mienfoo is especially important here so they can't keep abusing Knock Off, so Acrobatics Mienfoo or Hp Fight Foongus are all I can think of atm that deal with both well.
Have good type synergy - no brainer on stall
Be able to stop set up sweepers - running a Cottonee with Encore or something with Clear Smog, phazing etc you need a way to prevent pokemon from setting up.
Hazards - important on stall whether it be for phazing with Dragon Tail Lickitung to do damage, or toxic spikes stalling with Protect using mons.
Defensive Misdreavus - so you can prevent Drilbur from spinning (this one isn't really essential but its very important to consider imo)
keep in mind I haven't tried stall before in LC for obvious reasons so what I have up is what I believe will be important for stall in lc. Anyone with actual experience in this has something to share? Remember stall can be fun despite its difficulty to pull off :P
I think stall teams are actually quite strong right now, even if they aren't as popular as various offensive team archetypes, and that stall is indeed a viable playstyle; however, it arguably requires a bit more experience in the tier to use effectively because you need to have a very good idea of exactly what an opposing Pokemon is capable of to switch to the right Pokemon, since usually, every member of your team is integral. Of course, no one Pokemon is absolutely mandatory for all stall teams to function well, and there are plenty of excellent choices, but one Pokemon in particular that I've found to be a phenomenal addition to almost any stall team is Trubbish. On offensive teams, it's often frowned upon because it severely detracts from momentum, but on stall teams, this is usually a negligible issue. Stall teams will often have multiple Pokemon to switch into and deal with Trubbish's counters, allowing Trubbish's strengths to really shine. Not only is Trubbish able to repeatedly and reliably switch into a variety of Fighting-types, such as Mienfoo, Croagunk, and Timburr variants without boosting moves, thanks to a combination of Recycle and Berry Juice, but it has access to both Spikes and Toxic Spikes; Toxic Spikes in particular can sometimes be difficult to fit on a team, and can serve as a strong win condition for stall teams, while poisoning Drilbur, making it easier to wear down and allowing more hazards to be set up with impunity. Sticky Hold is especially important because, as Superpowerdude mentioned, Knock Off runs rampant, with its incredible utility and wide distribution, meaning a Knock Off absorber is incredibly useful for a team that relies on Eviolite holders to function, and Trubbish is a wonderful choice for the job, usually being able to beat the common users of the attack.
Once you get a basic grasp of the metagame, I don't think stall is any more difficult to build or play than offense; you just have to make sure you have a reliable way to repeatedly deal with as many common threats as you can. Regarding the move Toxic, I honestly don't find it necessary at all; it's just that I feel as if most common Pokemon on stall teams have far better things to do with their moveslots. The only notable exception to this I can come up with off the top of my head is Ponyta, who really only completely needs Morning Sun and a STAB move, and has two filler slots left.
Hazard control is, of course, very important for stall teams, because hazards will often be the primary form of damage to the opponent, but since stall teams heavily rely on switching, hazards on their own side will be quite detrimental as well. A big issue here is that most Rapid Spinners are either innately frail, limiting them from switching into a wide variety of threats and often preventing them from pulling their weight when it comes to walling key threats, such as Staryu, or lack reliable recovery, leaving them prone to being worn down, like Drilbur and Tentacool. As such, we're left with Defog, which removes your own hazards as well. However, I don't usually find this much of a problem; stall teams tend to run bulkier Pokemon that are able to come in repeatedly to set up hazards again and again. Another option is to simply build a team that runs Defog support and opts not to run, or at least focus on, hazards of your own; I have seen several people use these kinds of stall teams to good effect. Although this deprives the team of a powerful passive source of damage, it allows more time to be spent on using other moves to deal direct damage or cripple the opposing team in various manners.
To deal with stall teams, I don't actually think wall-breakers are the answer in most circumstances; for every powerful offensive threat able to crush one popular defensive Pokemon, there is usually another popular defensive Pokemon that is able to completely shut down this offensive threat. The three exceptions to this I can think of are Misdreavus, Life Orb Abra, and Life Orb Doduo, but most of them lack a form of recovery, and the latter two are also very innately frail, so they can often be played around, even if this costs a team member. Running unorthodox moves to take out specific walls for the rest of the team to sweep through a stall team could work, such as Poison Jab on Mienfoo to damage Snubbull, but stall teams will often run multiple stops to key threats, meaning this might not be enough, especially if said unorthodox move isn't enough to beat another wall, like the aforementioned Poison Jab not really being the best of options to get past Trubbish. You can also use trapping Pokemon, such as Diglett and Wynaut, to guarantee the removal of a given Pokemon, but this strategy might also not be enough to deal with double checks. The best way to deal with stall teams is probably to exploit actual individual weaknesses which will vary from stall team to stall team; it is incredibly difficult to completely cover every relevant threat under the sun with a single team, so there will often be a few moderately but not completely obscure Pokemon that a given stall team struggles against. If it really comes down to it, you can always exploit the sluggish nature of most stall teams and try to fish for hax :o
I think stall teams have a nice match-up against Hyper Offense, and, to a lesser extent, Bulky Offense, because these team archetypes tend to pack Pokemon that are easily worn down through weak attacks and passive damage, while the stall team is able to stand strong due to its defensive nature; however, balanced teams might be more troublesome, because the defensive core will be tough to break through with a defensive team, while the offensive core will ensure that momentum is on the balanced team's side, meaning mistakes made by the stall team user will often be punished much more severely. With that being said, I don't think the advantages gained by these match-ups are really actually all that notable at all, and that the strength of the actual teams, the ability and experience of the players, and dice rolls will all have a far greater impact on the outcome of the match.
Most Pokemon found on stall teams are completely at home on balanced and bulky offense teams, and sometimes even on hyper offense teams as a glue Pokemon; however, a few Pokemon are able to function far more effectively on stall teams than more offensive archetypes, because they tend to detract from offensive momentum, which can be an issue on offensive teams, but less so on defensve teams, with notable examples of this being Trubbish and Vullaby. I think Shellos is a decent example of a Pokemon that's mediocre at best on offensive teams, due to its lack of offensive presence and need to repeatedly waste turns healing itself to be able to check certain threats, but can still be viably used on stall teams due to its great ability in Sticky Hold.
Here's a stall team I created a while back and haven't used for some time, but was a lot of fun to play with when I did:
Once you get a basic grasp of the metagame, I don't think stall is any more difficult to build or play than offense; you just have to make sure you have a reliable way to repeatedly deal with as many common threats as you can. Regarding the move Toxic, I honestly don't find it necessary at all; it's just that I feel as if most common Pokemon on stall teams have far better things to do with their moveslots. The only notable exception to this I can come up with off the top of my head is Ponyta, who really only completely needs Morning Sun and a STAB move, and has two filler slots left.
Hazard control is, of course, very important for stall teams, because hazards will often be the primary form of damage to the opponent, but since stall teams heavily rely on switching, hazards on their own side will be quite detrimental as well. A big issue here is that most Rapid Spinners are either innately frail, limiting them from switching into a wide variety of threats and often preventing them from pulling their weight when it comes to walling key threats, such as Staryu, or lack reliable recovery, leaving them prone to being worn down, like Drilbur and Tentacool. As such, we're left with Defog, which removes your own hazards as well. However, I don't usually find this much of a problem; stall teams tend to run bulkier Pokemon that are able to come in repeatedly to set up hazards again and again. Another option is to simply build a team that runs Defog support and opts not to run, or at least focus on, hazards of your own; I have seen several people use these kinds of stall teams to good effect. Although this deprives the team of a powerful passive source of damage, it allows more time to be spent on using other moves to deal direct damage or cripple the opposing team in various manners.
To deal with stall teams, I don't actually think wall-breakers are the answer in most circumstances; for every powerful offensive threat able to crush one popular defensive Pokemon, there is usually another popular defensive Pokemon that is able to completely shut down this offensive threat. The three exceptions to this I can think of are Misdreavus, Life Orb Abra, and Life Orb Doduo, but most of them lack a form of recovery, and the latter two are also very innately frail, so they can often be played around, even if this costs a team member. Running unorthodox moves to take out specific walls for the rest of the team to sweep through a stall team could work, such as Poison Jab on Mienfoo to damage Snubbull, but stall teams will often run multiple stops to key threats, meaning this might not be enough, especially if said unorthodox move isn't enough to beat another wall, like the aforementioned Poison Jab not really being the best of options to get past Trubbish. You can also use trapping Pokemon, such as Diglett and Wynaut, to guarantee the removal of a given Pokemon, but this strategy might also not be enough to deal with double checks. The best way to deal with stall teams is probably to exploit actual individual weaknesses which will vary from stall team to stall team; it is incredibly difficult to completely cover every relevant threat under the sun with a single team, so there will often be a few moderately but not completely obscure Pokemon that a given stall team struggles against. If it really comes down to it, you can always exploit the sluggish nature of most stall teams and try to fish for hax :o
I think stall teams have a nice match-up against Hyper Offense, and, to a lesser extent, Bulky Offense, because these team archetypes tend to pack Pokemon that are easily worn down through weak attacks and passive damage, while the stall team is able to stand strong due to its defensive nature; however, balanced teams might be more troublesome, because the defensive core will be tough to break through with a defensive team, while the offensive core will ensure that momentum is on the balanced team's side, meaning mistakes made by the stall team user will often be punished much more severely. With that being said, I don't think the advantages gained by these match-ups are really actually all that notable at all, and that the strength of the actual teams, the ability and experience of the players, and dice rolls will all have a far greater impact on the outcome of the match.
Most Pokemon found on stall teams are completely at home on balanced and bulky offense teams, and sometimes even on hyper offense teams as a glue Pokemon; however, a few Pokemon are able to function far more effectively on stall teams than more offensive archetypes, because they tend to detract from offensive momentum, which can be an issue on offensive teams, but less so on defensve teams, with notable examples of this being Trubbish and Vullaby. I think Shellos is a decent example of a Pokemon that's mediocre at best on offensive teams, due to its lack of offensive presence and need to repeatedly waste turns healing itself to be able to check certain threats, but can still be viably used on stall teams due to its great ability in Sticky Hold.
Here's a stall team I created a while back and haven't used for some time, but was a lot of fun to play with when I did:
Lickitung @ Eviolite
Ability: Oblivious
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SDef / 116 HP / 156 Def
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Knock Off
- Heal Bell
Snubbull @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 116 Atk / 196 Def / 116 SDef / 36 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Play Rough
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
Archen @ Eviolite
Ability: Defeatist
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 156 Def / 76 SDef / 36 Spd
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Defog
Trubbish @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sticky Hold
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 36 Atk / 100 Def / 20 SDef / 236 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Recycle
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Spikes
Slowpoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 236 Def / 116 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake
- Slack Off
Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 196 SDef / 156 HP / 116 Def
Impish Nature
- U-Turn
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge
Lickitung is my primary Misdreavus switch-in, which is why it carries Knock Off; it also basically holds my entire team together by passing Wishes to random stuff and getting rid of status. Wish + Protect grants Lickitung fairly reliable recovery for itself and allows it to PP stall out certain threats with some prediction.
Snubbull + Lickitung is a phenomenal defensive core, with Snubbull resisting Lickitung's sole weakness, and the two of them together covering both physical and special attackers. Intimidate allows Snubbull to check a variety of threats, and it actually packs nice offensive presence and coverage with Play Rough + Earthquake. I find that oftentimes, Wish-passing isn't enough to keep Snubbull alive for as long as I want, because if Snubbull is low, people can simply predict the Wishpass and KO Snubbull; as such, I run Resttalk, which still meshes well with Lickitung, who can get rid of the sleep with Heal Bell.
Defensive Archen is my Defog user, as well as my switch-in to Fletchling and Bunnelby; it is usually able to stick around for a while thanks to Roost, and Eviolite allows it to actually take most neutral and resisted hits fairly well. I need Rock Slide, or else I lose to Fletchling, and Earthquake is there to hit Pawniard on the switch.
Trubbish is, as I pointed out earlier, a phenomenal Pokemon to have on defensive teams, by absorbing Knock Off while checking Fighting-types and Pawniard repeatedly. Gunk Shot is a fairly powerful STAB move, while Recycle + Berry Juice + Sticky Hold is what gives Trubbish its niche. Drain Punch is almost entirely for Pawniard, and Spikes provides hazards for my team, which I would otherwise lack.
Slowpoke isn't seen very often anymore because it's just not very good for a defensive Pokemon to be weak to both Misdreavus and Knock Off; however, I like it on this team because it can switch into things it does beat repeatedly. Thunder Wave cripples Misdreavus switch-ins, and Slack Off grants Slowpoke even more survivability alongside Regenerator. The Adamant nature might seem strange, but with Earthquake, it drastically increases the chance for the 2HKO on 76 HP/212 Def Bold Eviolite Chinchou after one layer of spikes, and the OHKO on 0 HP/52 Def Choice Scarf Chinchou after one layer of spikes. The main use of Earthquake is to hit Magnemite once its Sturdy has been broken. Aqua Tail is used over Scald for the guaranteed OHKO on 76 HP / 0 Def Archen and the 75% chance to OHKO 76 HP / 156 Def Archen instead of activating their Berry Juices, which Scald would do.
Mienfoo is arguably the absolute easiest Pokemon in LC to fit onto a team, performing wonderfully on pretty much any team archetype, including stall. On this team, Mienfoo serves as a nice back-up check to a huge list of dangerous threats, including but not limited to Pawniard, Carvanha, Scraggy, and pretty much everything else. Drain Punch is a mandatory STAB move which also allows Mienfoo to stick around for even longer, Knock Off provides great coverage and can permanently cripple an opposing Pokemon, and U-Turn is useful for scouting while chipping away at the opponent's health; all three are pretty much mandatory for Eviolite Mienfoo (I guess High Jump Kick can be run over Drain Punch on more offensive teams, though). Stone Edge is a filler move to hit Ponyta and Larvesta on the switch. Regenerator allows Mienfoo to pivot and act as a nuisance to the opposing team throughout the match, and is a big part of Mienfoo's success.
Some Pokemon this team struggles against are Magnemite, Berry Juice Chinchou, Nasty Plot + Pain Split/Will-o-Wisp Misdreavus, and Knock Off Archen.
Ability: Oblivious
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SDef / 116 HP / 156 Def
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Knock Off
- Heal Bell
Snubbull @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 116 Atk / 196 Def / 116 SDef / 36 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Play Rough
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
Archen @ Eviolite
Ability: Defeatist
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 156 Def / 76 SDef / 36 Spd
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Defog
Trubbish @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sticky Hold
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 36 Atk / 100 Def / 20 SDef / 236 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Recycle
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Spikes
Slowpoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 236 Def / 116 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake
- Slack Off
Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 196 SDef / 156 HP / 116 Def
Impish Nature
- U-Turn
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge
Lickitung is my primary Misdreavus switch-in, which is why it carries Knock Off; it also basically holds my entire team together by passing Wishes to random stuff and getting rid of status. Wish + Protect grants Lickitung fairly reliable recovery for itself and allows it to PP stall out certain threats with some prediction.
Snubbull + Lickitung is a phenomenal defensive core, with Snubbull resisting Lickitung's sole weakness, and the two of them together covering both physical and special attackers. Intimidate allows Snubbull to check a variety of threats, and it actually packs nice offensive presence and coverage with Play Rough + Earthquake. I find that oftentimes, Wish-passing isn't enough to keep Snubbull alive for as long as I want, because if Snubbull is low, people can simply predict the Wishpass and KO Snubbull; as such, I run Resttalk, which still meshes well with Lickitung, who can get rid of the sleep with Heal Bell.
Defensive Archen is my Defog user, as well as my switch-in to Fletchling and Bunnelby; it is usually able to stick around for a while thanks to Roost, and Eviolite allows it to actually take most neutral and resisted hits fairly well. I need Rock Slide, or else I lose to Fletchling, and Earthquake is there to hit Pawniard on the switch.
Trubbish is, as I pointed out earlier, a phenomenal Pokemon to have on defensive teams, by absorbing Knock Off while checking Fighting-types and Pawniard repeatedly. Gunk Shot is a fairly powerful STAB move, while Recycle + Berry Juice + Sticky Hold is what gives Trubbish its niche. Drain Punch is almost entirely for Pawniard, and Spikes provides hazards for my team, which I would otherwise lack.
Slowpoke isn't seen very often anymore because it's just not very good for a defensive Pokemon to be weak to both Misdreavus and Knock Off; however, I like it on this team because it can switch into things it does beat repeatedly. Thunder Wave cripples Misdreavus switch-ins, and Slack Off grants Slowpoke even more survivability alongside Regenerator. The Adamant nature might seem strange, but with Earthquake, it drastically increases the chance for the 2HKO on 76 HP/212 Def Bold Eviolite Chinchou after one layer of spikes, and the OHKO on 0 HP/52 Def Choice Scarf Chinchou after one layer of spikes. The main use of Earthquake is to hit Magnemite once its Sturdy has been broken. Aqua Tail is used over Scald for the guaranteed OHKO on 76 HP / 0 Def Archen and the 75% chance to OHKO 76 HP / 156 Def Archen instead of activating their Berry Juices, which Scald would do.
Mienfoo is arguably the absolute easiest Pokemon in LC to fit onto a team, performing wonderfully on pretty much any team archetype, including stall. On this team, Mienfoo serves as a nice back-up check to a huge list of dangerous threats, including but not limited to Pawniard, Carvanha, Scraggy, and pretty much everything else. Drain Punch is a mandatory STAB move which also allows Mienfoo to stick around for even longer, Knock Off provides great coverage and can permanently cripple an opposing Pokemon, and U-Turn is useful for scouting while chipping away at the opponent's health; all three are pretty much mandatory for Eviolite Mienfoo (I guess High Jump Kick can be run over Drain Punch on more offensive teams, though). Stone Edge is a filler move to hit Ponyta and Larvesta on the switch. Regenerator allows Mienfoo to pivot and act as a nuisance to the opposing team throughout the match, and is a big part of Mienfoo's success.
Some Pokemon this team struggles against are Magnemite, Berry Juice Chinchou, Nasty Plot + Pain Split/Will-o-Wisp Misdreavus, and Knock Off Archen.
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Hi there! You can try the RMT subforum; http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/xy-other-teams.292/
make sure you read the rules carefully and describe your team in enough detail for people to be able to rate it :)
for future reference, this sort of question is better in the Introductions and Simple Questions thread (just underneath this thread at the moment)
You can just post it in the LC room on Pokemon Showdown, found here: http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/littlecup
Make sure it's in a Pastebin though, to make it easier to read. Here's an example of how a team should look like when it's on a pastebin.
http://pastebin.com/0H0jbQkL (dont use this team though, it sucks.)
I'll post about stall later when I'm not in school @_@. I love playing defensive and I think I have a pretty solid "stall" team that I've used since the yan/tang neta. Regen mons are almost a necessity since they synergies so well, and you can constantly pressure opponents due to what seems like infinite hp. Also predicting with regen mons has more reward than risk which is why I love that playstyle. I love controlling the battle, slowing down the pace, and breaking down teams slowly.
I'll elaborate more later n_n
I'll elaborate more later n_n
Tbh I think stall is pretty underrated, but a lot of threats actually will hold it down one the meatgame balances itself out. SD Pawniard, wallbreakers like Houndour and Gastly, and other incredibly offensive Pokemon will hurt stall's potential as soon as it becomes popular. If anything, it just serves as an anti meta strategy at the present moment.
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