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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
- Thread starter Rowan
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That's probably not the best question to ask because stall really relies on defensive synergy, so mashing 6 defensive pokemon together, regardless of how strong they are individually, probably won't work; it's much easier getting by doing so if you use an offense team. From what I understand, you're fairly new to competitive battling in general, so you'll probably want to get a feel for the metagame first with a more fast-paced team before delving into stall.
With that being said, the following Pokemon tend to function very well on stall teams - Mienfoo, Misdreavus, Pawniard, Archen, Chinchou, Timburr, Tirtouga, Cottonee, Magnemite, Porygon, Croagunk, Foongus, Ponyta, Spritzee, Ferroseed, Trubbish, Vullaby, Lickitung, Slowpoke, Snubbull, Koffing, Hipopotas, Lileep, Shellos, Tentacool. Of these, Mienfoo, Archen, Chinchou, Porygon, Foongus, Spritzee, Trubbish, and Lickitung are especially notable. Pardon me if I missed anything important
With that being said, the following Pokemon tend to function very well on stall teams - Mienfoo, Misdreavus, Pawniard, Archen, Chinchou, Timburr, Tirtouga, Cottonee, Magnemite, Porygon, Croagunk, Foongus, Ponyta, Spritzee, Ferroseed, Trubbish, Vullaby, Lickitung, Slowpoke, Snubbull, Koffing, Hipopotas, Lileep, Shellos, Tentacool. Of these, Mienfoo, Archen, Chinchou, Porygon, Foongus, Spritzee, Trubbish, and Lickitung are especially notable. Pardon me if I missed anything important
Temperature based teams?
Alright, then. They're not unreasonably bad. queenlucy has successfully run a sun-team and smoked some of the best players in the tier. Rain isn't as good, due to the fact that there are no auto-inducers. Sandstorm and hail have their merits as well, but neither of them are ever seen, just because they're not that good. So sun can be used with the proper support, but can be difficult to pull off. I wouldn't suggest trying it.
Edit: But if it was unclear, queenlucy is the best to talk to on the matter.
Edit: But if it was unclear, queenlucy is the best to talk to on the matter.
Usually they're referred to as weather teams but w/e
Snover is sort of mediocre and there isn't any ability that doubles speed through hail, so hail isn't very viable at all.
Rain is a bit better but still isn't very good because it lacks auto weather setters, so it's really difficult to maintain.
I've seen both sun and sand teams used to good effect, the former more so, but in honesty, it's probably easiest to just run a weatherless hyper offense team because there's more room to add sweepers and stuff.
Snover is sort of mediocre and there isn't any ability that doubles speed through hail, so hail isn't very viable at all.
Rain is a bit better but still isn't very good because it lacks auto weather setters, so it's really difficult to maintain.
I've seen both sun and sand teams used to good effect, the former more so, but in honesty, it's probably easiest to just run a weatherless hyper offense team because there's more room to add sweepers and stuff.
...Temperature? Weather, right?
Anyways, I'm just going to assume that you mean Weather. Weather teams are quite viable in today's LC metagame, however, some weathers are more viable than others. Sun, I would say, is the most viable, so let me explain it first.
Vulpix is blessed with an amazing ability in Drought, being able to summon Sun just by entering the battlefield. In addition to Drought, there are a plethora of Pokemon that can utilize Sun to their advantage. The most common pokemon to utilize Sun is Bellsprout, made popular by Queenlucy. Bellsprout uses his ability, Chlorophyll, to double his speed, and start attacking stuff with a nice base 70 SpA stat. In Sun, Bellsprout can fire off deadly attacks such as Solarbeam, Weather Ball, and Sludge Bomb. Some other notable users of Chlorophyll are Bulbasaur and Oddish.
Rain, however has no such luck, as no Pokemon in LC can summon Rain upon entering the Battlefield. However, this does not mean it is not viable. If Rain is set up via Rain Dance, plenty of Pokemon gain the opportunity to sweep, such as Horsea. Additionally, lots of Water Pokemon enjoy the boost to their STAB Water attacks in the Rain. Rain's equivalent of Chlorophyll is an Ability called "Swift Swim", which can help Pokemon such as Poliwag and Tympole with Speed issues.
Sandstorm is a somewhat unique weather, as it damages any Pokemon that is not Rock, Steel, or Ground type every turn. Hippopotas has the ability to summon this weather upon entering the battlefield. Lileep enjoys Sandstorm very much, as it gets a boost to its Defenses while under it, thus boosting its Stalling capability. Sandstorm's equivalent of Chlorophyll or Swift Swim is a nifty little ability called "Sand Rush". This ability made Excadrill banned to Ubers in BW, as OU could not handle Excadrill's combination of massive attack and speed. Two Pokemon that are known for abusing Sand Rush are Sandshrew and Drilbur, as with their Attack and Speed under Sandstorm combined with Swords Dance, are both very good under Sandstorm.
Hail, the last weather, has no such luck, however. The only reason to use Snover (the pokemon that automatically summons Hail upon entering the battlefield) is to get rid of an opposing weather. A team built around Hail is generally a bad team, and Hail teams are not a recommended team archtype at all
Anyways, I'm just going to assume that you mean Weather. Weather teams are quite viable in today's LC metagame, however, some weathers are more viable than others. Sun, I would say, is the most viable, so let me explain it first.
Vulpix is blessed with an amazing ability in Drought, being able to summon Sun just by entering the battlefield. In addition to Drought, there are a plethora of Pokemon that can utilize Sun to their advantage. The most common pokemon to utilize Sun is Bellsprout, made popular by Queenlucy. Bellsprout uses his ability, Chlorophyll, to double his speed, and start attacking stuff with a nice base 70 SpA stat. In Sun, Bellsprout can fire off deadly attacks such as Solarbeam, Weather Ball, and Sludge Bomb. Some other notable users of Chlorophyll are Bulbasaur and Oddish.
Rain, however has no such luck, as no Pokemon in LC can summon Rain upon entering the Battlefield. However, this does not mean it is not viable. If Rain is set up via Rain Dance, plenty of Pokemon gain the opportunity to sweep, such as Horsea. Additionally, lots of Water Pokemon enjoy the boost to their STAB Water attacks in the Rain. Rain's equivalent of Chlorophyll is an Ability called "Swift Swim", which can help Pokemon such as Poliwag and Tympole with Speed issues.
Sandstorm is a somewhat unique weather, as it damages any Pokemon that is not Rock, Steel, or Ground type every turn. Hippopotas has the ability to summon this weather upon entering the battlefield. Lileep enjoys Sandstorm very much, as it gets a boost to its Defenses while under it, thus boosting its Stalling capability. Sandstorm's equivalent of Chlorophyll or Swift Swim is a nifty little ability called "Sand Rush". This ability made Excadrill banned to Ubers in BW, as OU could not handle Excadrill's combination of massive attack and speed. Two Pokemon that are known for abusing Sand Rush are Sandshrew and Drilbur, as with their Attack and Speed under Sandstorm combined with Swords Dance, are both very good under Sandstorm.
Hail, the last weather, has no such luck, however. The only reason to use Snover (the pokemon that automatically summons Hail upon entering the battlefield) is to get rid of an opposing weather. A team built around Hail is generally a bad team, and Hail teams are not a recommended team archtype at all
Personally, I think either having Lickitung or Spritzee is almost a necessity for stall (or even both). There are so many Pokemon that are fantastic Pokemon for stall but lack the recovery needed, so WishPassing is literally the most important form of support you can offer for this playstyle. Ferroseed, Cottonee, Snubbull, Chinchou, and Koffing are all examples of great stall mons that lack recovery.
Pokemon such as Porygon, Spritzee and Slowpoke are great for stall because they are just all-round bulky and are almost never 2HKOd. This means they can check different things depending on the opposing team. For example, one game you might need Porygon for a Flying-check, another you might use it as a Misdreavus counter, and another game you might use it as your Drilbur switch-in. It is just so versatile in what it can counter, and having a couple of these Pokemon on a team means you can always find ways to counter the opponents offensive threats. However you must be careful not to try and counter too many things at once with these Pokemon - decide what its going to switch into during team preview.
I find hazard control the hardest thing for Stall. Keeping hazards up is very difficult as Ghosts don't synergise well with other Stall Pokemon in my opinion and Pawniard just isn't a defensive Pokemon. This makes you very susceptible to Spinning/Defog. Also removing your own hazards is kinda difficult, especially when the most reliable defensive Pokemon for Defog, Archen and Vullaby are Stealth Rock weak themselves, and also usually match up badly against the pokemon which set Stealth Rock up. I've been trying out Kabuto as a Flying wall and spinner which has worked out surprisingly well to be honest, but it doesn't get reliable recovery and doesn't synergise well with Wish passers. Tentacool is another cool choice, but can't break past Ghost-types to spin. It does counter a large variety of threats though, so it's a good mon for Stall in general with Lickitung support. Just wondering what other Stall-users use for hazard control?
Toxic Spikes isn't the best hazard in LC, but I've found that dumping Toxic on Pokemon that have a spare moveslot is a very viable strategy. Putting it on Pokemon such as Chinchou, Ponyta, Ferroseed, Lickitung, Spritzee all work, and it really helps stall teams break through Pokemon such as Porygon and Misdreavus, who could otherwise be troublesome. Porygon is especially annoying unless you run a Fighting-type.
To be honest, as boo386 stated, Stall is pretty anti meta right now. Imo, if you build well, it is very easy to play with and beat many common teams and certainly an underrated playstyle in the current metagame.
Pokemon such as Porygon, Spritzee and Slowpoke are great for stall because they are just all-round bulky and are almost never 2HKOd. This means they can check different things depending on the opposing team. For example, one game you might need Porygon for a Flying-check, another you might use it as a Misdreavus counter, and another game you might use it as your Drilbur switch-in. It is just so versatile in what it can counter, and having a couple of these Pokemon on a team means you can always find ways to counter the opponents offensive threats. However you must be careful not to try and counter too many things at once with these Pokemon - decide what its going to switch into during team preview.
I find hazard control the hardest thing for Stall. Keeping hazards up is very difficult as Ghosts don't synergise well with other Stall Pokemon in my opinion and Pawniard just isn't a defensive Pokemon. This makes you very susceptible to Spinning/Defog. Also removing your own hazards is kinda difficult, especially when the most reliable defensive Pokemon for Defog, Archen and Vullaby are Stealth Rock weak themselves, and also usually match up badly against the pokemon which set Stealth Rock up. I've been trying out Kabuto as a Flying wall and spinner which has worked out surprisingly well to be honest, but it doesn't get reliable recovery and doesn't synergise well with Wish passers. Tentacool is another cool choice, but can't break past Ghost-types to spin. It does counter a large variety of threats though, so it's a good mon for Stall in general with Lickitung support. Just wondering what other Stall-users use for hazard control?
Toxic Spikes isn't the best hazard in LC, but I've found that dumping Toxic on Pokemon that have a spare moveslot is a very viable strategy. Putting it on Pokemon such as Chinchou, Ponyta, Ferroseed, Lickitung, Spritzee all work, and it really helps stall teams break through Pokemon such as Porygon and Misdreavus, who could otherwise be troublesome. Porygon is especially annoying unless you run a Fighting-type.
To be honest, as boo386 stated, Stall is pretty anti meta right now. Imo, if you build well, it is very easy to play with and beat many common teams and certainly an underrated playstyle in the current metagame.
Spike stacking isn't a necessity for stall anymore, there's always the option to run hippo (a great underrated stall sr setter), which supports mons, and creates passive damage, which can be incredibly useful to increase the damage output of stall mons and give them less of a need to waste a turn attacking if a mon is low on health. #1 priority when using that idea is to keep track of sand turns, as making a misplay like that vs offense can cost you a mon. Another thing thats a better idea even though rowan and others may disagree with me, toxic spikes can be key to break down teams, as balanced would hate having SR up, slowly wearing down their defogger (archen or vullaby), and there offensive mons bar pawniard slowly being weakened. While mienfoo and timburr may be either indifferent or glad to have toxic status, it can also be a burden when a tspiker user (tentacool) has an immensely effective ability towards wearing them down. Trubbish is pretty much the only other viable user, and frankly a burden for stall. While it can handle pawniard, mienfoo, timburr, basically a lot of threats, but it also gives turns to drilbur, missy, and even ferroseed despite drain punch, which just lose momentum to the point its annoying. Also unless download porygon, it isn't really a problem, except it can stay realitively healthy with foongus/mienfoo.
Sand stall is probably the easiest way to get wins if you're thinking stall. Hippopotas is just so bulky and there are a few threats that seem to have fallen out of favor (Vullaby in particular) that really appreciate passive damage. Pairing sand stall with a bulky Timburr (particularly on the specially defensive side of things), which was really effective last gen, still is a great way you can check a lot of common threats and their weaknesses, with 2 good examples being Misdreavus and Pawniard. I haven't seen a lot of use for Shelmet, but I can't help but think he has a place somewhere in this meta as well. Stall has consistently been underrated in LC due to how devastating set up mons are (and they can seem all but impossible to handle when there are things like Carvanha that don't really need that set up), but as someone pointed out above, defensive synergy is often more important than just having the 6 bulkiest Pokemon.
Yeah sand stall is one of the most annoying things a team can face if you pull it off. While I prefer ferroseed>shelmet, shelmet does have the ability to switch into spores, which usually non-regen core stall teams tend to lack. Stuff like tentacool or frillish are also viable since they tank a lot of random stuff, albeit the obscurity of frillish, it still spin blocks decently vs drilbur. Tentacool, while being dented by knock off spam from mienfoo, it can, with prediction (something a stall team will always need) effectively turn mienfoos drain punch against itself, which with spikes adding up (if you can manage to keep them up with SR in the current meta, will prevent mienfoo from just breaking stall along the way. tbh one thing I consider over most people when building stall is one offensive mon or scarfer to punish turns wasted late game to get rid of hazards, such as scarf pawniard, which also revenges missy.
I've been seeing loads of people using stall to some nice success since this topic - most notably game 3 of = Blarajan vs. Artemisa in Battle of the Week, which you can find in the second post of that thread.
Topic #3 - Trappers!
Trapping Pokemon is a fantastic way to put you at an advantage over the opponent. It can give you a fantastic way for one of your sweepers to get through the opposing team. Here are the ways you can trap Pokemon:
Arena Trap
Diglett is probablly the Pokemon that everyone thinks of when you say trapper. The infamous FletchDig or ZigDig cores are some of the most commonly used strategies in LC. We all know how they work, but are there any other Pokemon that Diglett works well with?
Trapinch is another arena trap Pokemon, but often gets overlooked due to its dreadful Speed. However, it has 100 Base Attack and can work with Trick Room.
Shadow Tag
Wynaut is a great Pokemon at removing certain threats with Counter, Mirror Coat, and Destiny Bond. It can also trap+encore to allow free set up for loads of set-up sweepers. Gothita is another Pokemon that has a reasonably large attacking movepool to trap quite a few Pokemon. It can also use Taunt to trap walls much easier.
Magnet Pull
Magnet Pull Magnemite was used extremely commonly in gen 5, but since has fallen out of favor thanks to Sturdy and Berry Juice. However it can still trap most steel-types in the game as it can survive most hits with an eviolite, and it can customise its Hidden Power to beat certain Pokemon. (Fire for Ferro, Fight for Pawniard, Ground for Magnemite). Nosepass also has Magnet Pull, but it also has access to Sturdy, and doesn't have the most ideal typing for trapping Steels. Can it do this job better than Magnemite at all?
Pursuit
Pursuit is a way to Pseudo-trap Ghosts and Psychics and remove them from the game. Pawniard, Stunky and Houndour are the most prevalent Pursuit users, but are there any more that can fulfill a niche?
Mean Look, Wrap (and their counterparts)
PerishTrapping is something usually associated with Mean Look, using a combo of Mean Look and Perish Song. Murkrow used to be a decent user of this combination, but since its banning are there are other Pokemon that can accomplish the task as well? And are there any Pokemon which can successfully use moves such as Wrap, Whirlpool and Infestation?
Discuss how you can use these methods to gain an advantage. What Pokemon are supported well by this method? Is using a Pokemon such as Gothita, Wynaut, or Diglett worth the moveslot and can these Pokemon do anything other than trap specific threats? Is trapping too reliable on team matchup?
Topic #3 - Trappers!
Trapping Pokemon is a fantastic way to put you at an advantage over the opponent. It can give you a fantastic way for one of your sweepers to get through the opposing team. Here are the ways you can trap Pokemon:
Arena Trap
Diglett is probablly the Pokemon that everyone thinks of when you say trapper. The infamous FletchDig or ZigDig cores are some of the most commonly used strategies in LC. We all know how they work, but are there any other Pokemon that Diglett works well with?
Trapinch is another arena trap Pokemon, but often gets overlooked due to its dreadful Speed. However, it has 100 Base Attack and can work with Trick Room.
Shadow Tag
Wynaut is a great Pokemon at removing certain threats with Counter, Mirror Coat, and Destiny Bond. It can also trap+encore to allow free set up for loads of set-up sweepers. Gothita is another Pokemon that has a reasonably large attacking movepool to trap quite a few Pokemon. It can also use Taunt to trap walls much easier.
Magnet Pull
Magnet Pull Magnemite was used extremely commonly in gen 5, but since has fallen out of favor thanks to Sturdy and Berry Juice. However it can still trap most steel-types in the game as it can survive most hits with an eviolite, and it can customise its Hidden Power to beat certain Pokemon. (Fire for Ferro, Fight for Pawniard, Ground for Magnemite). Nosepass also has Magnet Pull, but it also has access to Sturdy, and doesn't have the most ideal typing for trapping Steels. Can it do this job better than Magnemite at all?
Pursuit
Pursuit is a way to Pseudo-trap Ghosts and Psychics and remove them from the game. Pawniard, Stunky and Houndour are the most prevalent Pursuit users, but are there any more that can fulfill a niche?
Mean Look, Wrap (and their counterparts)
PerishTrapping is something usually associated with Mean Look, using a combo of Mean Look and Perish Song. Murkrow used to be a decent user of this combination, but since its banning are there are other Pokemon that can accomplish the task as well? And are there any Pokemon which can successfully use moves such as Wrap, Whirlpool and Infestation?
Discuss how you can use these methods to gain an advantage. What Pokemon are supported well by this method? Is using a Pokemon such as Gothita, Wynaut, or Diglett worth the moveslot and can these Pokemon do anything other than trap specific threats? Is trapping too reliable on team matchup?
Well firstly I believe that Diglett practically defines trapping in LC. As Rowan mentioned FletchDig and DigZig teams have become very popular strategies that are actually highly effective. Diglett is able to trap Steels, Chinchou, etc that Fletchling (and Zigzagoon) don't like letting them sweep easier. Diglett also has access to a powerful tool that is Memento and its fast speed practically gaurantees it will get one of unless it is against priority or scarfers. Memento support aids Zigzagoon in setting up a Belly Drum with practically no drawbacks.
Magnet Pull Magnemite is also quite viable despite SturdyJuice becoming popular, As Magnemite can beat practically any Steel-type 1v1 unless they carry something odd like Earthqauke. A core I theorymon'd is LO Aipom with Fake Out / Fury Swipes / Seed Bomb / Knock Off. Seed Bomb is chosen over the popular Brick Break to beat Omanyte and Tirtouga and Magnemite removes Steel-types that would have an easier time dealing with Aipom that doesn't carry Brick Break. I have seen Magnet Pull Magnemite + Bunnelby before too and although Bunnelby can use Brick Break, removing Steel-types for it does ease prediction since you will prolly be running Scarf Bunnelby and it makes it much easier to spam the powerful Return. Speaking about trapping, using this in addition to a Pursuit user like Bulky Houndour can make it that much easier to spam Return with Ghost-types removed.
Wynaut I have used before and it is a decent Pokemon, not the best but it can do its job of trapping threats nicely. I think a core that doesn't have to much popularity but I have heard of people using it before and I myself have used it is Wynaut + Carvahna, you remove Fighting-types for Carvahna since it can live a Knock Off from any of them so then Carvahna has an easier time sweeping. I think the main problem people have with Wynaut is they don't know how to use it properly because it is kinda a tricky mon to use, E.g. it is very risky switching Wynaut in on Fighting-types even thought it resists Fighting because switching into a Knock Off makes it essentially useless. It is much better to sack something so you can bring Wynaut in safely. Also, you have to play around teams carefully with Mienfoo + a Ghost-type (misdreavus) Because any good player will U-turn out with Mienfoo and go into the Ghost-type that is immune to Counter. Of course the same thing can be done with Volt-switch + Dark-type to stop Mirror Coat but I thought the first one is more notable because Mienfoo and Misdreavus are found on so much teams together.
Very nice idea here Rowan and people start posting your opinions on this!
Magnet Pull Magnemite is also quite viable despite SturdyJuice becoming popular, As Magnemite can beat practically any Steel-type 1v1 unless they carry something odd like Earthqauke. A core I theorymon'd is LO Aipom with Fake Out / Fury Swipes / Seed Bomb / Knock Off. Seed Bomb is chosen over the popular Brick Break to beat Omanyte and Tirtouga and Magnemite removes Steel-types that would have an easier time dealing with Aipom that doesn't carry Brick Break. I have seen Magnet Pull Magnemite + Bunnelby before too and although Bunnelby can use Brick Break, removing Steel-types for it does ease prediction since you will prolly be running Scarf Bunnelby and it makes it much easier to spam the powerful Return. Speaking about trapping, using this in addition to a Pursuit user like Bulky Houndour can make it that much easier to spam Return with Ghost-types removed.
Wynaut I have used before and it is a decent Pokemon, not the best but it can do its job of trapping threats nicely. I think a core that doesn't have to much popularity but I have heard of people using it before and I myself have used it is Wynaut + Carvahna, you remove Fighting-types for Carvahna since it can live a Knock Off from any of them so then Carvahna has an easier time sweeping. I think the main problem people have with Wynaut is they don't know how to use it properly because it is kinda a tricky mon to use, E.g. it is very risky switching Wynaut in on Fighting-types even thought it resists Fighting because switching into a Knock Off makes it essentially useless. It is much better to sack something so you can bring Wynaut in safely. Also, you have to play around teams carefully with Mienfoo + a Ghost-type (misdreavus) Because any good player will U-turn out with Mienfoo and go into the Ghost-type that is immune to Counter. Of course the same thing can be done with Volt-switch + Dark-type to stop Mirror Coat but I thought the first one is more notable because Mienfoo and Misdreavus are found on so much teams together.
Very nice idea here Rowan and people start posting your opinions on this!
I'm gonna tag sparktrain here because Perishtrap Seel
Thanks for the tag Fizz. I'll definitely write something up about Perish Trapping and post here. For those interested, there are actually only four PerishTrappers in the current metagame:
- Misdreavus - Perish Song + Mean Look
- Seel - Perish Song + Whirlpool
- Gastly - Perish Song + Mean Look / Infestation
- Smoochum - Perish Song + Mean Look
Encore + destiny bond wynaut + ultra hard set up (CLAMPERL IMO) = win
I would like to leave this calc here :
240+ SpA Choice Specs Gothita Psychic vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 24-30 (96 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
bc we all hate having foongus in the ennemy team.
But what does spec gothita do outside of killing foongus ? =l
Edit :
240+ SpA Choice Specs Gothita Psychic vs. 236 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 24-30 (100 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240+ SpA Choice Specs Gothita Thunderbolt vs. 116 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Slowpoke: 18-22 (66.6 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
c:
fuck regenerators.
240+ SpA Choice Specs Gothita Psychic vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 24-30 (96 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
bc we all hate having foongus in the ennemy team.
But what does spec gothita do outside of killing foongus ? =l
Edit :
240+ SpA Choice Specs Gothita Psychic vs. 236 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 24-30 (100 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240+ SpA Choice Specs Gothita Thunderbolt vs. 116 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Slowpoke: 18-22 (66.6 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
c:
fuck regenerators.
I'd like to say that Gothita is like the LC equivalent to Gothitelle or even Gothorita, but it doesn't perform either of their jobs nearly as well. For one, it can't even learn Trick with Shadow Tag so it can't swap off a Scarf/Specs and proceed to set up Calm Mind and attempt a sweep like Gothitelle, and though I haven't run Eviolite as much as I'd like, it's still frail as hell in comparison to Gothorita. It's very niche and dull otherwise since what it traps and kills is rather narrow and it has an even wider pool of things that nerfs it out the gate.
A Guide to PerishTrapping in XY LC
PerishTrapping is, to say the least, an uncommon strategy. This is because it’s difficult to execute, there are very few mons capable of pulling it off, and frankly, it’s quite gimmicky. However, I stated a few days ago that I would construct a guide on how to find some success with PerishTrap, and I’m gonna follow up. Here we go!
Trapping in LC
The main goal of any trapper in LC is to remove a specific threat from the opposing team, allowing the trapper’s teammates to have a better shot at sweeping through the opposition. A prime example of this is the infamous FletchDig core, in which Diglett can trap key Steel/Rock/Electric types, allowing Fletchling a much better shot at sweeping with priority Acrobatics. Wynaut was a favorite among top players in the KrowTite era thanks to its ability to trap and bring down Meditite, and it still sees a decent amount of use in the current metagame. So, how does PerishTrap fit into all of this?
PerishTrapping
The main targets are super bulky walls in general (Munchlax, Lickitung, Koffing, Hippopotas, Spritzee, and more), which are annoying to bulky/hyper offense teams alike since it will take at least one turn of setup to break past them otherwise. A good PerishTrapper needs to be able to use a trapping move turn one, Perish Song turn two, and stall two turns to successfully bring down an opponent. As I mentioned in my previous post, there are four PerishTrappers in the current metagame:
Misdreavus
Perish Song + Mean Look
Seel
Perish Song + Whirlpool
Gastly
Perish Song + Mean Look / Infestation
Smoochum
Perish Song + Mean Look
Obviously, not all of them aregud good. I've done a little bit of testing with each, and was generally disappointed with my results. Smoochum ranked the lowest in my book; there's just nothing relevant it can trap with its awful bulk and inability to stall turns. Gastly is also generally too frail to stall turns, and the things that it CAN "wall" (namely mono-attacking fairies), are better dealt with by Sludge Bomb anyway. Misdreavus can pull it off alright thanks to its godly BST, but PerishTrap Missy is outclassed by better Misdreavus sets which are much more immediately threatening to the opposing team (like Nasty Plot Missy). In other words, PerishTrap Missy doesn’t really allow you to beat anything you wouldn’t otherwise. This is why I’m going to focus on Seel.
Seel is generally regarded as a joke mon, since all people seem to do with it is the manly Life Orb+priority set that’s on the DP/BW analysis (which is admittedly fun, but it’s weak and outclassed). It does however hold a very small niche as the best PerishTrapper LC has to offer. Its odd BST distrbution, ability, typing (no Knock Off weakness!) and movepool are just enough to fit the bill for this.
The standard PerishTrap set is Whirpool, Perish Song, Rain Dance, Rest. It's quite simple to use, since you literally use the moves in that order vs walls w/ weak offenses (Spritzee, Koffing, Lickitung come to mind). With Hydration+Rest, Seel makes itself immune to status and heals up in the last two turns of Perish Song, and can potentially switch out at full health while the opponent faints. Seel can also run PerishTrap + two attacks if you're willing to give up HydraRest; Waterfall+Drill Run are my moves of choice. Drill Run is an awesome coverage move since it punishes Chinchou and Croagunk who otherwise get a free switchin to Seel.
What makes the trapping aspect of Whirlpool so nice is that even if your opponent switches in a Seel counter as you attack, the threat of double-switching is removed, meaning you can easily switch to your team mate of choice and simply attempt a trap later in the match.
Seel is obviously not without faults; it has very specific targets (bulky mons w/ low offenses), meaning it struggles against several LC powerhouses such as Misdreavus and Pawniard, and likewise struggles against Heavy Offense teams. However, it will pull its weight when played correctly vs. balance or stall teams.
I’m gonna include this team to those who want to give PerishTrapping a try. (why not get reqs w/ something interesting?)
So some quick comments on the team… it features plenty of interesting mon/move/item choices. Mienfoo is the Knock Off absorber for the team thanks to its typing and Regenerator. It can further punish the fighting-types that knock it off with Acrobatics; special thanks to Rowan for posting the set in the creative movesets thread. Foongus gives the team a solid switchin to Chinchou, it's the standard pivoting set w/ HP Fighting to lure Pawn. These two regenerator mons give options for Seel to switch to at the final turn of a PerishTrap. The given Seel set/spread capitalizes on its good special bulk, which allows Seel to trap mons like Spritzee and Koffing effectively. Berry Juice is chosen over Eviolite since it can buy Seel an extra turn to trap, set up Rain Dance, whatever. Misdreavus+Pawniard are the dedicated revenge killers. Together, they check a TON of setup sweepers, and either one can clean once the appropriate walls are eliminated (Psychic is on Missy b/c it outspeeds Modest Bellsprout in sun by a point; you can replace it w/ hp fighting once lucy is finished getting reqs). Omanyte plays the role of a late game sweeper and a Fletchling check. What makes Omanyte really cool for this team is Swift Swim; Seel can set up Rain Dance if its about to die (or if it accidentally dies to a crit before it can Rest), then Omanyte can keep the team’s momentum flowing and fire off Rain boosted Surfs at double speed. If you're up against Hyper Offense, Seel will at least be able to set up Rain for Omanyte since not much can actually OHKO Seel w/out a boost, preventing Seel from being potential dead weight vs. HO.
I've had some fun using the team on the ladder, go ahead and try it out if you want!
PerishTrapping is, to say the least, an uncommon strategy. This is because it’s difficult to execute, there are very few mons capable of pulling it off, and frankly, it’s quite gimmicky. However, I stated a few days ago that I would construct a guide on how to find some success with PerishTrap, and I’m gonna follow up. Here we go!
Trapping in LC
The main goal of any trapper in LC is to remove a specific threat from the opposing team, allowing the trapper’s teammates to have a better shot at sweeping through the opposition. A prime example of this is the infamous FletchDig core, in which Diglett can trap key Steel/Rock/Electric types, allowing Fletchling a much better shot at sweeping with priority Acrobatics. Wynaut was a favorite among top players in the KrowTite era thanks to its ability to trap and bring down Meditite, and it still sees a decent amount of use in the current metagame. So, how does PerishTrap fit into all of this?
PerishTrapping
The main targets are super bulky walls in general (Munchlax, Lickitung, Koffing, Hippopotas, Spritzee, and more), which are annoying to bulky/hyper offense teams alike since it will take at least one turn of setup to break past them otherwise. A good PerishTrapper needs to be able to use a trapping move turn one, Perish Song turn two, and stall two turns to successfully bring down an opponent. As I mentioned in my previous post, there are four PerishTrappers in the current metagame:
Misdreavus
Perish Song + Mean Look
Seel
Perish Song + Whirlpool
Gastly
Perish Song + Mean Look / Infestation
Smoochum
Perish Song + Mean Look
Obviously, not all of them are
Seel is generally regarded as a joke mon, since all people seem to do with it is the manly Life Orb+priority set that’s on the DP/BW analysis (which is admittedly fun, but it’s weak and outclassed). It does however hold a very small niche as the best PerishTrapper LC has to offer. Its odd BST distrbution, ability, typing (no Knock Off weakness!) and movepool are just enough to fit the bill for this.
The standard PerishTrap set is Whirpool, Perish Song, Rain Dance, Rest. It's quite simple to use, since you literally use the moves in that order vs walls w/ weak offenses (Spritzee, Koffing, Lickitung come to mind). With Hydration+Rest, Seel makes itself immune to status and heals up in the last two turns of Perish Song, and can potentially switch out at full health while the opponent faints. Seel can also run PerishTrap + two attacks if you're willing to give up HydraRest; Waterfall+Drill Run are my moves of choice. Drill Run is an awesome coverage move since it punishes Chinchou and Croagunk who otherwise get a free switchin to Seel.
What makes the trapping aspect of Whirlpool so nice is that even if your opponent switches in a Seel counter as you attack, the threat of double-switching is removed, meaning you can easily switch to your team mate of choice and simply attempt a trap later in the match.
Seel is obviously not without faults; it has very specific targets (bulky mons w/ low offenses), meaning it struggles against several LC powerhouses such as Misdreavus and Pawniard, and likewise struggles against Heavy Offense teams. However, it will pull its weight when played correctly vs. balance or stall teams.
I’m gonna include this team to those who want to give PerishTrapping a try. (why not get reqs w/ something interesting?)
Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- U-turn
Foongus @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 124 HP / 160 Def / 160 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
Seel @ Berry Juice
Ability: Hydration
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 76 Def / 196 SpD
Calm Nature
- Whirlpool
- Perish Song
- Rain Dance
- Rest
Misdreavus @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psychic
- Trick
Pawniard @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Brick Break
- Stealth Rock
Omanyte @ Eviolite
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 156 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Shell Smash
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- U-turn
Foongus @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 124 HP / 160 Def / 160 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
Seel @ Berry Juice
Ability: Hydration
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 76 Def / 196 SpD
Calm Nature
- Whirlpool
- Perish Song
- Rain Dance
- Rest
Misdreavus @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psychic
- Trick
Pawniard @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Brick Break
- Stealth Rock
Omanyte @ Eviolite
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 156 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Shell Smash
So some quick comments on the team… it features plenty of interesting mon/move/item choices. Mienfoo is the Knock Off absorber for the team thanks to its typing and Regenerator. It can further punish the fighting-types that knock it off with Acrobatics; special thanks to Rowan for posting the set in the creative movesets thread. Foongus gives the team a solid switchin to Chinchou, it's the standard pivoting set w/ HP Fighting to lure Pawn. These two regenerator mons give options for Seel to switch to at the final turn of a PerishTrap. The given Seel set/spread capitalizes on its good special bulk, which allows Seel to trap mons like Spritzee and Koffing effectively. Berry Juice is chosen over Eviolite since it can buy Seel an extra turn to trap, set up Rain Dance, whatever. Misdreavus+Pawniard are the dedicated revenge killers. Together, they check a TON of setup sweepers, and either one can clean once the appropriate walls are eliminated (Psychic is on Missy b/c it outspeeds Modest Bellsprout in sun by a point; you can replace it w/ hp fighting once lucy is finished getting reqs). Omanyte plays the role of a late game sweeper and a Fletchling check. What makes Omanyte really cool for this team is Swift Swim; Seel can set up Rain Dance if its about to die (or if it accidentally dies to a crit before it can Rest), then Omanyte can keep the team’s momentum flowing and fire off Rain boosted Surfs at double speed. If you're up against Hyper Offense, Seel will at least be able to set up Rain for Omanyte since not much can actually OHKO Seel w/out a boost, preventing Seel from being potential dead weight vs. HO.
I've had some fun using the team on the ladder, go ahead and try it out if you want!
- Status