People want a retest because they think the metal has become "stale," but ORAS will do enough to fix that. The new move tutors will make many more pokemon viable on serious teams and give already-viable pokemon even more move choices. It's not just pancham and goth that received new moves. There's really no need to retest things just to spice up the meta.
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
- Thread starter Rowan
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I'm actually interested in seeing Tangela and Yanma having retests in ORAS. It's not just an issue of trying to create a fluid metagame, but also that we ought to consider that certain metagame changes will have shifted pressure for teams to consider other threats. That's sorta why now I won't support a Fletch ban, but did in the Missy era.
The idea of retesting previously banned Pokemon is something I and many others have wanted for a while now. Misdreavus, Meditite, and Yanma (and maybe Murkrow) are all Pokemon I would want to see retested, and that I never felt was that broken. I can see that some people may feel its a waste of time to retest fairly obviously broken Pokemon like Sneasel, Gligar, and Swirlix, but I can't see why people would be against retesting banned Pokemon that the community was fairly split on. Its not like a retest means unban, and suspect tests/retests have the benefit of attracting new players to the tier, something that LC really needs.
Seeing as we have now banned everything that, in my opinion, can come close to being broken, and the fact that we have played this meta now for a while, I think its a perfect time to take a second look on some banned mons.
Seeing as we have now banned everything that, in my opinion, can come close to being broken, and the fact that we have played this meta now for a while, I think its a perfect time to take a second look on some banned mons.
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Because Tangela is incredibly busted. Hey, let's also retest Sneasel while we're at it. It loses to Timburr anyway. :)))
There's a reason you're the only person. Tangela was stupid good and pretty much lived anything on the physical side. Also, we don't need to give lucy even more toys to play with under the sun, she's annoying enough to deal with already.
Except tangela is much easier to handle with Vullaby/foongus/stunky/fletch and whatever else. It's got way more viable checks than shit like Meditite, which is why I'm supporting a retest.
GlassGlaceon
My heart has now been set on love
you obviously never played this meta
252+ SpA Life Orb Tangela Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Stunky in Sun: 10-13 (38.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Tangela Hidden Power Fire vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus in Sun: 18-23 (72 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Tangela Hidden Power Fire vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling in Sun: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
not a counter
sleep powder
20 s.atk
base 115 def to avoid the RK from fletch
nopenopenope
Not to mention that Ancient Power exists for the birds
A speed boost set would probably be comparable in terms of brokenness to Carvanha, who isn't any frailer after factoring in Stealth Rock and is just as, if not more offensively threatening; Yanma's 75 SpA isn't bad but certainly isn't great for an outright sweeper, and it doesn't help that Air Slash's base power is pitiful and Bug Buzz's coverage is awful. On the other hand, Yanma's Hypnosis would be the fastest accurate sleep move in the game by far, and in conjunction with U-Turn, would render it very difficult to deal with by allowing it to easily bypass at least one of its checks while totally shifting the game's momentum regardless of the opponent's moves.
I'm still confused as to why
a) people are bringing up counters like Vullaby and Fletchling as if they were not factors already present.
b) people think the council's decision is magically no longer valid
If I were still a mod, keeping in mind I have never infracted anyone, I'd probably throw some out from the ignorance displayed. Are the banned mons threads hard to find or something?
I'm on my phone or I'd check.
a) people are bringing up counters like Vullaby and Fletchling as if they were not factors already present.
b) people think the council's decision is magically no longer valid
If I were still a mod, keeping in mind I have never infracted anyone, I'd probably throw some out from the ignorance displayed. Are the banned mons threads hard to find or something?
I'm on my phone or I'd check.
Backing up Yagura on this (I think that's how you tag people, but I really have no idea xD).
BAN "scyther should totally be retested it's not broken at all" -no one ever
BAN i'm really trying to think of a reason to unban sneasel, but it only got better this gen with the knock off buff and steel no longer resisting dark
BAN unban because it's vomit on his sweater already / moms spaghetti. Look, if you had one opportunity, or one shot, Look, if you had one shot, or one opportunity / To seize everything / you ever wanted. one moment / Would you capture it or just let it slip? no but srsly tangela is for fucktards and its disgusting
UNBAN it isn't that broken, considering vullaby pretty much hard walls it
BAN cupcake demon needs to burn for what it did to the meta
BAN this isnt even a cutemon smh its just awful for the meta
UNBAN im really on the fence about krow, because it looks so solid and versatile but spritz seems to put a hard stop to it. might as well give it the benefit of the doubt, as i'll explain later in this post
UNBAN personally i dont know how to feel about tite, its weak to fletch and not too bulky but i dont think much can switch into it especially the lo set. not sure how to feel so unban
UNBAN missy is cool and all but no recovery means it gets worn down p easy and also it is weak to knock so its not like a perfect mon or anything which is why im saying unban
Prepare for a wall of text.
I recognize the fact that some, maybe all, of the Pokemon that I think should be unbanned may be broken and should be banned. That being said, the LC metagame is incredibly stagnant right now, to say the least. As proof of this, the top 7 mons in August (when Missy got banned) and the top 7 mons in October are all the same, even being in the exact same order. If that doesn't show how the metagame hasn't changed, I don't know what does.
The metagame we have right now is perfectly balanced, and that's a problem. Having a balanced metagame where nothing is particularly overpowered means that the meta isn't changing, it isn't adapting to anything- take Mienfoo, the most used mon of the past three months, with a usage stat of over 60% in October. Do you think "Oh shit, it's Mienfoo, the terror of LC," when you see Mienfoo on the other side of the field (and most of the time you do)? Do you think of Mienfoo as a huge threat that you have to make sure you have hard counters to? The answer, of course, is no. There is nothing too good in this metagame, and that's a problem.
See, in my opinion, a metagame needs to promote creativity and originality, and a perfectly balanced metagame cannot achieve that. If you watch serious, high level battles, or look at the usage stats for high ladder players (read: the only stats where Aipom isn't used), you'll see the top 15 or so mons getting used over and over again, with some rising and falling but not really changing that much. Let me put it this way: Mienfoo, #1 in usage last month, was used more than six times more than Onix, #20. The month before that, Mienfoo was #1 and Cottonee was #20. Mienfoo was used almost seven times more often than Cottonee. Let's compare that to another fairly stable metagame, XY UU. Last month, the most used Pokemon was Jirachi. Jirachi was used six times more than not #20, it was used about that many times more than #50, Hippowdon. That's a big difference- in the difference between #1 and the Pokemon used about six times less in LC, it's 20 Pokemon, and in UU, it's more than two times that at 50.
So a good way that we can view the metagame is like a scale- one of those scales with two plates hanging from the bar in the middle. In our current metagame, that bar isn't tilting in any direction, it's going straight across- if it were an algebraic expression, the slope would be 0. We've already established that this is bad. What we want to do is tilt that scale just a little bit- not too much, but just nudge it a little to one side. An imbalanced metagame is bad, and a balanced metagame is bad, but a metagame that is just slightly imbalanced fosters innovation and creativity. This is how we need the metagame to be right now- it shouldn't always be our goal to slightly imbalance the meta, but when we've had a metagame that's been balanced out for a few months now, and innovation is running dry, we should try to change something. There have been a lot of threads started to try to breathe some new life into the meta, like the newly revived Teambuilding Competition, the Teambuiding Workshop, and Little Cup Research Week, and they've been mildly successful, but they're not enough. You still don't see the Pokemon being used in Research Week consistently on the high ladder (except for Tricking's new RMT but he's ridiculously good at Little Cup anyway so he can pretty much make whatever he wants viable lol) and Mienfoo, arguably the best mon in the current meta, is rising in usage, not dropping. I don't think any of us want to see a metagame where Mienfoo is on literally every team, but that seems to be where we're heading right now.
So we have two options, really, to help balance the metagame:
Option 1: We suspect Mienfoo. Mienfoo could be considered over-centralizing in this metagame due to its ubiquity and versatility. The problem with this is that, well, Mienfoo isn't really broken. It's not a terror to face like Gligar, Swirlix, or Sneasel. In my opinion, this is not the path we want the metagame to go down because Mienfoo isn't just the glue to hold a team together, it holds the metagame together, and if Foo left then the metagame would be very chaotic, trying to adapt to not seeing this mon again. Still, it's something to think about.
Option 2: We reintroduce some of the banned mons to the metagame. With the new tutors from ORAS, there may be new checks or counters to the Ubers that we haven't discovered yet. We know now that Misdreavus is outclassed as a defensive spin blocker by Pumpkaboo now that it gets Synthesis, for example. Maybe Gothita, with the new legality of Trick + Shadow Tag, can be a good Meditite counter. We don't know yet, but we do know that this will definitely change the metagame and let players innovate and try out new things. This is the option I favor.
Option 3: We don't ban/unban anything, and hope that the ORAS move tutors will do enough to shake up the metagame on their own. To be honest, I don't think that's going to happen, but I think that the tutors might let some mons check others (including the Ubers) better than they could before.
I think we all agree that option 1 is out of the question, Mienfoo isn't broken and it isn't overcentralizing, but I'd like to see what you guys think of options 2 and 3.
EDIT: Heysup's post above me is interesting. At least in my book, if most of the playerbase wants something to happen- if they want Wurmple banned, or some shit like that- I think I'd vote for that to happen, because the most important part of this is that it's a game that people play to have fun. People don't make livings playing Pokemon. They play for fun. And, say Wurmple didn't get banned, if people are angry or disappointed, they're not having fun, which is the whole point of playing this game. Just my opinion. :]
Prepare for a wall of text.
I recognize the fact that some, maybe all, of the Pokemon that I think should be unbanned may be broken and should be banned. That being said, the LC metagame is incredibly stagnant right now, to say the least. As proof of this, the top 7 mons in August (when Missy got banned) and the top 7 mons in October are all the same, even being in the exact same order. If that doesn't show how the metagame hasn't changed, I don't know what does.
The metagame we have right now is perfectly balanced, and that's a problem. Having a balanced metagame where nothing is particularly overpowered means that the meta isn't changing, it isn't adapting to anything- take Mienfoo, the most used mon of the past three months, with a usage stat of over 60% in October. Do you think "Oh shit, it's Mienfoo, the terror of LC," when you see Mienfoo on the other side of the field (and most of the time you do)? Do you think of Mienfoo as a huge threat that you have to make sure you have hard counters to? The answer, of course, is no. There is nothing too good in this metagame, and that's a problem.
See, in my opinion, a metagame needs to promote creativity and originality, and a perfectly balanced metagame cannot achieve that. If you watch serious, high level battles, or look at the usage stats for high ladder players (read: the only stats where Aipom isn't used), you'll see the top 15 or so mons getting used over and over again, with some rising and falling but not really changing that much. Let me put it this way: Mienfoo, #1 in usage last month, was used more than six times more than Onix, #20. The month before that, Mienfoo was #1 and Cottonee was #20. Mienfoo was used almost seven times more often than Cottonee. Let's compare that to another fairly stable metagame, XY UU. Last month, the most used Pokemon was Jirachi. Jirachi was used six times more than not #20, it was used about that many times more than #50, Hippowdon. That's a big difference- in the difference between #1 and the Pokemon used about six times less in LC, it's 20 Pokemon, and in UU, it's more than two times that at 50.
So a good way that we can view the metagame is like a scale- one of those scales with two plates hanging from the bar in the middle. In our current metagame, that bar isn't tilting in any direction, it's going straight across- if it were an algebraic expression, the slope would be 0. We've already established that this is bad. What we want to do is tilt that scale just a little bit- not too much, but just nudge it a little to one side. An imbalanced metagame is bad, and a balanced metagame is bad, but a metagame that is just slightly imbalanced fosters innovation and creativity. This is how we need the metagame to be right now- it shouldn't always be our goal to slightly imbalance the meta, but when we've had a metagame that's been balanced out for a few months now, and innovation is running dry, we should try to change something. There have been a lot of threads started to try to breathe some new life into the meta, like the newly revived Teambuilding Competition, the Teambuiding Workshop, and Little Cup Research Week, and they've been mildly successful, but they're not enough. You still don't see the Pokemon being used in Research Week consistently on the high ladder (except for Tricking's new RMT but he's ridiculously good at Little Cup anyway so he can pretty much make whatever he wants viable lol) and Mienfoo, arguably the best mon in the current meta, is rising in usage, not dropping. I don't think any of us want to see a metagame where Mienfoo is on literally every team, but that seems to be where we're heading right now.
So we have two options, really, to help balance the metagame:
Option 1: We suspect Mienfoo. Mienfoo could be considered over-centralizing in this metagame due to its ubiquity and versatility. The problem with this is that, well, Mienfoo isn't really broken. It's not a terror to face like Gligar, Swirlix, or Sneasel. In my opinion, this is not the path we want the metagame to go down because Mienfoo isn't just the glue to hold a team together, it holds the metagame together, and if Foo left then the metagame would be very chaotic, trying to adapt to not seeing this mon again. Still, it's something to think about.
Option 2: We reintroduce some of the banned mons to the metagame. With the new tutors from ORAS, there may be new checks or counters to the Ubers that we haven't discovered yet. We know now that Misdreavus is outclassed as a defensive spin blocker by Pumpkaboo now that it gets Synthesis, for example. Maybe Gothita, with the new legality of Trick + Shadow Tag, can be a good Meditite counter. We don't know yet, but we do know that this will definitely change the metagame and let players innovate and try out new things. This is the option I favor.
Option 3: We don't ban/unban anything, and hope that the ORAS move tutors will do enough to shake up the metagame on their own. To be honest, I don't think that's going to happen, but I think that the tutors might let some mons check others (including the Ubers) better than they could before.
I think we all agree that option 1 is out of the question, Mienfoo isn't broken and it isn't overcentralizing, but I'd like to see what you guys think of options 2 and 3.
EDIT: Heysup's post above me is interesting. At least in my book, if most of the playerbase wants something to happen- if they want Wurmple banned, or some shit like that- I think I'd vote for that to happen, because the most important part of this is that it's a game that people play to have fun. People don't make livings playing Pokemon. They play for fun. And, say Wurmple didn't get banned, if people are angry or disappointed, they're not having fun, which is the whole point of playing this game. Just my opinion. :]
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Backing up Yagura on this (I think that's how you tag people, but I really have no idea xD).
BAN "scyther should totally be retested it's not broken at all" -no one ever
BAN i'm really trying to think of a reason to unban sneasel, but it only got better this gen with the knock off buff and steel no longer resisting dark
BAN unban because it's vomit on his sweater already / moms spaghetti. Look, if you had one opportunity, or one shot, Look, if you had one shot, or one opportunity / To seize everything / you ever wanted. one moment / Would you capture it or just let it slip? no but srsly tangela is for fucktards and its disgusting
UNBAN it isn't that broken, considering vullaby pretty much hard walls it
BAN cupcake demon needs to burn for what it did to the meta
BAN this isnt even a cutemon smh its just awful for the meta
UNBAN im really on the fence about krow, because it looks so solid and versatile but spritz seems to put a hard stop to it. might as well give it the benefit of the doubt, as i'll explain later in this post
UNBAN personally i dont know how to feel about tite, its weak to fletch and not too bulky but i dont think much can switch into it especially the lo set. not sure how to feel so unban
UNBAN missy is cool and all but no recovery means it gets worn down p easy and also it is weak to knock so its not like a perfect mon or anything which is why im saying unban
Prepare for a wall of text.
I recognize the fact that some, maybe all, of the Pokemon that I think should be unbanned may be broken and should be banned. That being said, the LC metagame is incredibly stagnant right now, to say the least. As proof of this, the top 7 mons in August (when Missy got banned) and the top 7 mons in October are all the same, even being in the exact same order. If that doesn't show how the metagame hasn't changed, I don't know what does.
Try looking at the stats for Pokemon outside of just the Top 7, or try looking at what moves those Pokemon are using. Trust me, you'll see some differences.
The metagame we have right now is perfectly balanced, and that's a problem. Having a balanced metagame where nothing is particularly overpowered means that the meta isn't changing, it isn't adapting to anything- take Mienfoo, the most used mon of the past three months, with a usage stat of over 60% in October. Do you think "Oh shit, it's Mienfoo, the terror of LC," when you see Mienfoo on the other side of the field (and most of the time you do)? Do you think of Mienfoo as a huge threat that you have to make sure you have hard counters to? The answer, of course, is no. There is nothing too good in this metagame, and that's a problem.
How is balance an issue? Literally the main reason why we place bans and restrictions on our metagame is for balance. If in our metagame, we don't consider the top threats "super super scary" then we've done our job.
See, in my opinion, a metagame needs to promote creativity and originality, and a perfectly balanced metagame cannot achieve that. If you watch serious, high level battles, or look at the usage stats for high ladder players (read: the only stats where Aipom isn't used), you'll see the top 15 or so mons getting used over and over again, with some rising and falling but not really changing that much. Let me put it this way: Mienfoo, #1 in usage last month, was used more than six times more than Onix, #20. The month before that, Mienfoo was #1 and Cottonee was #20. Mienfoo was used almost seven times more often than Cottonee. Let's compare that to another fairly stable metagame, XY UU. Last month, the most used Pokemon was Jirachi. Jirachi was used six times more than not #20, it was used about that many times more than #50, Hippowdon. That's a big difference- in the difference between #1 and the Pokemon used about six times less in LC, it's 20 Pokemon, and in UU, it's more than two times that at 50.
Creativity and originality is completely dependent on the playerbase. I won't be the first to admit that our community has issues with that. You also have to consider that LC has fewer threats than most of the high tiers like OU or UU, so a Pokemon that does a certain job is a lot more likely to be considered niche for that job.
So a good way that we can view the metagame is like a scale- one of those scales with two plates hanging from the bar in the middle. In our current metagame, that bar isn't tilting in any direction, it's going straight across- if it were an algebraic expression, the slope would be 0. We've already established that this is bad. What we want to do is tilt that scale just a little bit- not too much, but just nudge it a little to one side. An imbalanced metagame is bad, and a balanced metagame is bad, but a metagame that is just slightly imbalanced fosters innovation and creativity. This is how we need the metagame to be right now- it shouldn't always be our goal to slightly imbalance the meta, but when we've had a metagame that's been balanced out for a few months now, and innovation is running dry, we should try to change something. There have been a lot of threads started to try to breathe some new life into the meta, like the newly revived Teambuilding Competition, the Teambuiding Workshop, and Little Cup Research Week, and they've been mildly successful, but they're not enough. You still don't see the Pokemon being used in Research Week consistently on the high ladder (except for Tricking's new RMT but he's ridiculously good at Little Cup anyway so he can pretty much make whatever he wants viable lol) and Mienfoo, arguably the best mon in the current meta, is rising in usage, not dropping. I don't think any of us want to see a metagame where Mienfoo is on literally every team, but that seems to be where we're heading right now.
Mienfoo isn't hurting the meta, though. Yes, it is a master of momentum and it has great coverage, but it overall isn't hurting the viability of anything on its own. I can't honestly think of a Pokemon that isn't viable because of Mienfoo. If there is something whose viability is hurt by Mienfoo, it's also probably being hurt by Timburr/Gunk/Cham. I can also go on and on about how LC players generally don't leave their comfort zones, blah blah blah.
So we have two options, really, to help balance the metagame:
Option 1: We suspect Mienfoo. Mienfoo could be considered over-centralizing in this metagame due to its ubiquity and versatility. The problem with this is that, well, Mienfoo isn't really broken. It's not a terror to face like Gligar, Swirlix, or Sneasel. In my opinion, this is not the path we want the metagame to go down because Mienfoo isn't just the glue to hold a team together, it holds the metagame together, and if Foo left then the metagame would be very chaotic, trying to adapt to not seeing this mon again. Still, it's something to think about.
Banning Mienfoo would arguably weaken VoltTurn, which would be quite interesting. However, I can't see that huge of a meta shift, besides Pawniard being slightly harder to deal with, but we have other Fighting-types around. Like you said though, it's not broken, it's just really good.
Option 2: We reintroduce some of the banned mons to the metagame. With the new tutors from ORAS, there may be new checks or counters to the Ubers that we haven't discovered yet. We know now that Misdreavus is outclassed as a defensive spin blocker by Pumpkaboo now that it gets Synthesis, for example. Maybe Gothita, with the new legality of Trick + Shadow Tag, can be a good Meditite counter. We don't know yet, but we do know that this will definitely change the metagame and let players innovate and try out new things. This is the option I favor.
Unbanning Pokemon will only create issues that we had in the past, which was the existence of those Pokemon. It won't help.
Option 3: We don't ban/unban anything, and hope that the ORAS move tutors will do enough to shake up the metagame on their own. To be honest, I don't think that's going to happen, but I think that the tutors might let some mons check others (including the Ubers) better than they could before.
They'll definitely mix things up a bit. Pancham can actually threaten Fairies, and Pumpkaboo can actually threaten Physical Attackers a lot better because it can Synth off the hits. Not major changes mind you, but they'll be fun for a while.
I think we all agree that option 1 is out of the question, Mienfoo isn't broken and it isn't overcentralizing, but I'd like to see what you guys think of options 2 and 3.
I'm honestly fine with Option 3. It sucks that we don't get much new, but we'll be fine as long as we learn to explore our options.
EDIT: Heysup's post above me is interesting. At least in my book, if most of the playerbase wants something to happen- if they want Wurmple banned, or some shit like that- I think I'd vote for that to happen, because the most important part of this is that it's a game that people play to have fun. People don't make livings playing Pokemon. They play for fun. And, say Wurmple didn't get banned, if people are angry or disappointed, they're not having fun, which is the whole point of playing this game. Just my opinion. :]
Comments in bold and italicised.
It's occurred to me now that the discussion has moved along that retesting stuff probably isn't the best idea. Looking over the reasons why these pokemon got banned in the first place and hearing from LC veterans really drove the point home. Not to mention there have been some pretty mediocre "it has counters" arguments for bringing stuff back. I thought rule 1 of suspect tests is that just because something has counters doesn't mean it's not broken?
Not really going to address your reasons for unbanning, mostly because I already did (and they were already addressed when the decisions were made :P) and am obviously peeved that people aren't reading the relevant discussions already.
However this part, shows where some of the confusion is. The term "fun", admittedly, not a reason why I would ban something (ie. for example, to think competitive Pokemon is fun because it's competitive rather than there's lots of broken stuff), was already considered by the council. I addressed it here as to why the "fun" argument fails (similar to the substantive "well yanma isn't that good cuz <insert poorly thought out "counter" that actually loses>"):
Keep that in mind when I say "bring something new to the table". Something already addressed is already addressed as much as people wouldn't even favor that idea in the first place.
The discussion is generally more important than the posted reasoning, especially since Meditite's was so extensive.
deleted a lot of the shit, certain people are lucky they weren't infracted, this thread started off civilly discussing what they might think is worthy of a retest to random snarky comments aimed at each other.
As for retests, read DatCoconut's post above me. Let's wait till ORAS takes its course and discuss what we think about the meta once that has settled. I know there aren't too many changes for LC, but it still takes time for metas to settle no matter how small the change.
For now, why don't you start coming up with creative Pokemon, sets, and cores to use in this meta, without resorting to the same old foo/chou/pawn core that you claim is making the meta so stale. If you don't want a stale meta, then be creative yourself, run more anti-meta things. The way the metagame evolves at the moment comes down to the people playing it, and what trends you set yourself.
As for retests, read DatCoconut's post above me. Let's wait till ORAS takes its course and discuss what we think about the meta once that has settled. I know there aren't too many changes for LC, but it still takes time for metas to settle no matter how small the change.
For now, why don't you start coming up with creative Pokemon, sets, and cores to use in this meta, without resorting to the same old foo/chou/pawn core that you claim is making the meta so stale. If you don't want a stale meta, then be creative yourself, run more anti-meta things. The way the metagame evolves at the moment comes down to the people playing it, and what trends you set yourself.
My little cent about that. I think it's correct to re-examine (where we decided it's worthwhile) when ORAS is real. Personally I believe ORAS will change very little, considering previous discussion. But I'm sure, our task is looking for improve LC as better we can.
Clarifying question: is part of the goal of tiering to attain balance with as few bans as possible? If the number of bans is irrelevant, then there is absolutely no need for a retest - we have a balanced metagame already. However, if part of the purpose of tiering is to minimize the number of bans, then retests may have purpose. I'm not saying that retests should happen, but there's a discussion to be had for them if we want to minimize bans in a balanced meta. If amount of bans doesn't matter then there should be no discussion of a retest.Macle said:
Thank you!
Another question: what degree of evidence is required to convince you of a retest? When something in the tier is thought to be suspect-worthy, it's easy enough to point to the myriad factors that seem to make it broken. However, that's impossible due to the nature of something being banned already. So, would the retested pokemon need to simply have been theorized to no longer unbalance the metagame, possibly in conjunction with other drops? Or would it need to go a step further than that and seem to actually increase the balance of the metagame? Would conditions cited in the suspect threads need to have changed for restests to work?
Another question: what degree of evidence is required to convince you of a retest? When something in the tier is thought to be suspect-worthy, it's easy enough to point to the myriad factors that seem to make it broken. However, that's impossible due to the nature of something being banned already. So, would the retested pokemon need to simply have been theorized to no longer unbalance the metagame, possibly in conjunction with other drops? Or would it need to go a step further than that and seem to actually increase the balance of the metagame? Would conditions cited in the suspect threads need to have changed for restests to work?
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