Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

[6ft Torbjorn]

nothing else of note runs King's Shield, so there's no real reason to suspect it separately from Aegislash.

Quite the contrary IMO. Given that it was a move exclusive to Aegi - it would have been every reason to suspect/ban the move. It was also the main key to the 50/50s you guys hated so much, and given that things such as Shadow Tag have been banned (Goth was nothing without it), I'd say there is honestly no excuse not to. If Aegi was STILL unhealthy after that, so be it, you can suspect it afterwards - I just don't think the community takes it's time sometimes...

 

[KztxL7]

Why the hell is anyone talking about Aegislash?

It was dumb in XY.
It was dumb enough that no one wanted it's ass back in ORAS.
It was dumb enough that people wanted it gone in SuMo.

Trying to complex ban it just so it can exist back in SuMo is stupid. Let the bastard rest in peace.

 

[Gary]

Why the fuck are we talking about Mega Mawile when it isn't out for another few days? Why are we talking about Aegislash when it's currently banned and with no possible future of being suspected anytime soon? Is it possible to not derail this thread?

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Why the fuck are we talking about Mega Mawile when it isn't out for another few days? Is it possible to not derail this thread?

It was never on any rails fam

in all seriousness, there were a few nods to Auto-Celesteela, and some random guy asking about Bulky Volcarona before I bought Mega Mawile up. Doesn't sound that structured if you ask me...

Trying to complex ban it just so it can exist back in SuMo is stupid. Let the bastard rest in peace.

Apart from banning KS would never be a complex ban in any way, shape or form.

 

[Gary]

It was never on any rails fam

in all seriousness, there were a few nods to Auto-Celesteela, and some random guy asking about Bulky Volcarona before I bought Mega Mawile up. Doesn't sound that structured if you ask me...



Apart from banning KS would never be a complex ban in any way, shape or form.

What are you even saying? That this thread isn't structured because people are talking about actual sets that exist and could potentially perform well in the metagame? I don't see how those have any less structure than theorymoning about a Pokemon that isn't even out yet. Obviously this thread has had its issues staying on track, but that doesn't give you the right to continue to derail it even farther, especially when everything you're talking about is pure theorymoning and completely irrelevant to the current metagame.

Speaking of which, Auto Celesteela is like actually really good atm. I know that it's starting to become more well known, but it's honestly quite amazing how potent it can be late game, and how so many teams just auto lose to it with Spikes support. Its insane natural bulk lets it set up on a ton of fat Pokemon such as Mega Venusaur, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Skarm, Fini, etc. Air Slash is kind of weak, but after a boost, it's a solid sweeping option, and that's why Supersonic Skystrike is really useful because it lets you get the ball rolling or just muscling through Pokemon late game. It's only really useful on offensive teams because it appreciates being paired with breakers and stuff like Spikes Greninja, but it's also nice because it adds offensive teams with a nice pivot in tight situations while still maintaining offensive momentum, but its health should definitely be preserved as much as possible in order to set up.

Bulky Volcarona seems kinda iffy to me but I can see it being effective just because it walls some pretty big threats atm, mainly Phero and Mega Metagross (kind of) as well as Bulu and Magearna. It's just unfortunate because it has a lot of issues sweeping because of stuff like Fini being more annoying for it (they should be running a lot of Speed in the current metagame so they can prevent you from Roosting or setting up), and you obviously have to deal with Heatran/Alolan Wak in other ways. Also SR becomes more of an issue considering that you will be switching Volc in more often and want it to stay as healthy as possible.

 

[Leo]

Honestly I've never seen the point of using bulky Volcarona, and even more in this meta where Volcarona runs through any offense lacking a Scarfer. Bulky variants are easier to check because if you're using a check for Firium Volc then chances are you have bulky Volc covered already. I guess it's a nice Pheromosa and Metagross check but then you realize that taking 50% from rocks means you have to defog every time your opp gets up rocks before he sends in his Phero/Meta/Buzzwole(?) and Fini (the most common Defogger and partner for Volc atm) has shown in the past couple of weeks how easy it is to pressure. There are games where bulky Volc might put in a lot of work but most of the time you'll wish you had an offensive Volc to just sweep after a QD. Oh and Autoto Steela is crazy good rn can't believe people still sleep on it, once it gets a couple of boosts it's pretty much over and its bulk+typing makes it so annoying to rkill. Scarfchomp being the go-to scarfer is also really nice because it can't revenge Steela without some prior damage and Giga just makes it worse.

 

[cityscapes]

So what does everyone think about Choice Specs Pelipper? It was used in a recent SPL match (replay) and it looks pretty good to me.

The set would probably look something like this:

Pelipper @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Scald

In the game, Pelipper performed excellently, dealing over 65% to a defensive Celesteela. It was also able to take many hits. Because Zamrock's team relied less on rain being up (for example, it had no Swift Swim users), the loss of Damp Rock didn't matter that much.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

So what does everyone think about Choice Specs Pelipper? It was used in a recent SPL match (replay) and it looks pretty good to me.

The set would probably look something like this:

Pelipper @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Scald

In the game, Pelipper performed excellently, dealing over 65% to a defensive Celesteela. It was also able to take many hits. Because Zamrock's team relied less on rain being up (for example, it had no Swift Swim users), the loss of Damp Rock didn't matter that much.

Wow way to change the subject

But yeah, I think Specs could probably have some form of niche. The problem with that Pelliper set is that it seems a little to easy to whittle, and since Rain doesn't have inherently good forms of hazard control (besides... what, Starmie?), it's only getting a few chances vs rocks. The only reason Peli jumped this many tiers is because of Drizzle, and if it's not being used for that you'll want to look elsewhere.

I personally don't find standard Pelliper hard to whittle, because good players should be applying enough pressure to stop it Roosting stuff off.

 

[Hugin]

So what does everyone think about Choice Specs Pelipper? It was used in a recent SPL match (replay) and it looks pretty good to me.

The set would probably look something like this:

Pelipper @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Scald

In the game, Pelipper performed excellently, dealing over 65% to a defensive Celesteela. It was also able to take many hits. Because Zamrock's team relied less on rain being up (for example, it had no Swift Swim users), the loss of Damp Rock didn't matter that much.

You don't just lose Damp Rock, you also lose reliable recovery and defog. I mean, Specs power is nice and all, but you're basically a less-bulky Politoed at that point.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

Is Kingdra-less Rain viable? I've been messing around with Pelipper / Ludicolo / Tapu Koko / Kabutops / Ferrothorn / Mega Metagross on an alt and I like it so far, but I haven't reached high ladder yet. It's not often that I think to myself, gee, I wish I had Draco Meteor here, but on the other hand when I face the likes of Gastrodon and I don't have Ludicolo I just hate myself. Just wondering, since Kingdra is still the premier Rain sweeper.

 

[guan123]

Is Kingdra-less Rain viable? I've been messing around with Pelipper / Ludicolo / Tapu Koko / Kabutops / Ferrothorn / Mega Metagross on an alt and I like it so far, but I haven't reached high ladder yet. It's not often that I think to myself, gee, I wish I had Draco Meteor here, but on the other hand when I face the likes of Gastrodon and I don't have Ludicolo I just hate myself. Just wondering, since Kingdra is still the premier Rain sweeper.

Yes. If you can't use Kingdra, then Ash-Greninja is a viable option. Ash-Greninja hits very hard in the rain. Alolan Raichu could work since you have tapu koko but Alolan Raichu requires large amounts of support. If you want to use Ash-Greninja, I'd replace Ferrothorn with it since you already have a steel type (Mega Metagross).

 

[Ema Skye]

Specs Pelipper honestly seems kinda cool.

95 SpA doesn't seem like a lot, until you figure out it's boosted by rain. For reference, this means that it's hitting just as hard, or harder, than Tapu Koko with Electric Terrain (as both confer the same boost to their respective STABs). Specs Politoed was solid in Gen 5 and I don't see why Pelipper can't pull it off here. I honestly doubt you'd plan a rain team around it, as it lacks the longevity, but as a self sufficient wallbreaker, I don't see anything wrong with it. Compare it to something like TR Magearna/Reuinclus.

Calcs for reference:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela in Rain: 255-301 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 192-226 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Sableye-Mega in Rain: 318-375 (104.9 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Sableye-Mega in Electric Terrain: 208-246 (68.6 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[M BLADE]

Just use LO instead. It can still keep it's tank properties. Hudro Pump/Hurricane/Ice Beam/Roost gets the most out of the set IMO.

And this kind of Pelipper should be used as a standalone poke IMO. It's not that worth pairing it with Swift Swim users, although some tanks still aprreciate the few turns of rain.

 

[Alphanex20]

Specs Pelipper honestly seems kinda cool.

95 SpA doesn't seem like a lot, until you figure out it's boosted by rain. For reference, this means that it's hitting just as hard, or harder, than Tapu Koko with Electric Terrain (as both confer the same boost to their respective STABs). Specs Politoed was solid in Gen 5 and I don't see why Pelipper can't pull it off here. I honestly doubt you'd plan a rain team around it, as it lacks the longevity, but as a self sufficient wallbreaker, I don't see anything wrong with it. Compare it to something like TR Magearna/Reuinclus.

Calcs for reference:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela in Rain: 255-301 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 192-226 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Sableye-Mega in Rain: 318-375 (104.9 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Sableye-Mega in Electric Terrain: 208-246 (68.6 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Just use LO instead. It can still keep it's tank properties. Hudro Pump/Hurricane/Ice Beam/Roost gets the most out of the set IMO.

Only problem is that most of the time you need Pelipper to support something with rain, so Damp Rock is a must (it helps that it has Roost for recovery, unlike Politoed). But tbh an offensive set might be nice (I usually see people use defensive Scald/U-Turn/Hurricane/Roost).

 

[Leo]

What's exactly the reason to use Specs Pelipper? When do you suddenly realize that a Specs Pelipper would improve your team when teambuilding? Pelipper whole niche is Drizzle, otherwise there's 0 reason to use it even though its STABs are nice. If you're using Pelipper aka dedicated Rain Setter that means you're using rain, so unless you want to give your Rain Abusers less time to abuse rain in exchange for abusing rain with your rain setter (?) then Damp Rock should be the go-to item.

 

[Ema Skye]

What's exactly the reason to use Specs Pelipper? When do you suddenly realize that a Specs Pelipper would improve your team when teambuilding? Pelipper whole niche is Drizzle, otherwise there's 0 reason to use it even though its STABs are nice. If you're using Pelipper aka dedicated Rain Setter that means you're using rain, so unless you want to give your Rain Abusers less time to abuse rain in exchange for abusing rain with your rain setter (?) then Damp Rock should be the go-to item.

Drizzle is the reason to use Specs Pelipper. It's more than a dedicated rain setter, and there's no reason you can't run Pelipper without the usual rain users (as I showed above, you hit harder than a lot of OU's other special attackers), though you certainly could (but I'd caution against it).

People run Trick Room Magearna outside of a Trick Room team, as it's able to use the Trick Room on its own to become a threatening attacker. It's the same thing here.

 

[pika pal]

While I don't think this applies to Pelipper necessarily, being a Weather setting mon does not immediately mean it HAS to be supporting the team via the weather. Look at Ninetales-Alola, where it sets Hail but that's only relevant because of Aurora Veil, or Tyranitar, who sees usage very often as a standalone mon as he does for Sand Teams thanks to the SpD boost giving him very good bulk. I'm skeptical about it being the case here, but on the same note I could understand the idea of a mon just using Drizzle for itself to give it a nuclear STAB.

That said, the comparison to Tapu Koko has to remember that Koko also has a phenomenal Speed Tier, so it pressures the opponent to use their Electric checks much more since it's not often going to be outsped and beaten to the punch before firing off a potentially monstrous Thunderbolt. Pelipper is incredibly slow and not very bulky considering its defensive Shortcomings. While kinda strong, its not quite Wallbreaker tier with Specs, more akin to "Tank Cracker" with that power, which isn't sufficient for a set that's primarily offering offensive power and not much Speed or defensive utility in this case.

 

[Siggu]

The question here would be - as it was kind of pointed out already - is whether it's worth using Pelipper as the Specs rain attacker over, say, Politoed, who also sets rain and trades a little Special Attack and lack of Flying STAB for a little more Speed, better mixed bulk and access to Focus Miss.

Specs Pelipper does have surprise factor, but its support capabilities seem more appealing.

 

[Leo]

I guess Specs Peli is somewhat comparable to Charizard-Y: A strong wallbreaker that abuses its own weather-setting ability instead of supportig its teammates. But how viable is it then? Even though the combination of STAB+Rain boost+Specs makes its Water moves strong nukes, I feel like its lackluster Speed stat really holds it back. It also suffers competition from other wallbreakers such as Specs Greninja or even the rare Specs Keldeo which are much easier to use due to its superior speed tiers. I still think that Specs Peli has some kind of niche but most of the time it's hard to justify using it instead of any other breaker imo. Its STAB 100% accurate Canes are a big plus tho

 

[Boomfan56]

Stall vs. Offense
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-250787
This SPL replay is very interesting in my opinion since Destiny Device has multiple pokemon that people repeatedly say are "stallbreakers", plays pretty well, but still loses to the default stall build.
They had:
-SD Alolan Marowak
-SD SStrike Lando with rocks
-Spikes Greninja

What happened to them was:
-Marowak SDanced, killed Chansey, then got pursuited by dugtrio twice (dugtrio could do this because the sash was still intact because skarm could defog on lando)
-Landorus got up rocks, killed clef with SSSS, and then got up rocks a few more times (though skarm would come in and defog them pretty easily)
-Greninja got knocked off while hydro pumping Sableye and could not break it to get up spikes

After that Skarmory + Toxapex walled the rest of the team. Also interesting to note that Arena Trap did nothing this game (the threat of trapping metagross didn't really matter because metagross couldn't kill skarmory).

Thoughts? I feel like this puts a dent in the "to beat stall you just have to bring a stallbreaker" argument. 3 pokemon were catered to specifically put a dent in stall (marowak especially is brought up as "6-0ing stall") but still failed to completely break it.

 

[TrueExcaKill]

With Mega Mawiles release so near i wanted to ask if some on could tell me or link me the reasoning for its ban back in XY and ORAS

 

[AM]

Stall vs. Offense
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-250787
This SPL replay is very interesting in my opinion since Destiny Device has multiple pokemon that people repeatedly say are "stallbreakers", plays pretty well, but still loses to the default stall build.
They had:
-SD Alolan Marowak
-SD SStrike Lando with rocks
-Spikes Greninja

What happened to them was:
-Marowak SDanced, killed Chansey, then got pursuited by dugtrio twice (dugtrio could do this because the sash was still intact because skarm could defog on lando)
-Landorus got up rocks, killed clef with SSSS, and then got up rocks a few more times (though skarm would come in and defog them pretty easily)
-Greninja got knocked off while hydro pumping Sableye and could not break it to get up spikes

After that Skarmory + Toxapex walled the rest of the team. Also interesting to note that Arena Trap did nothing this game (the threat of trapping metagross didn't really matter because metagross couldn't kill skarmory).

Thoughts? I feel like this puts a dent in the "to beat stall you just have to bring a stallbreaker" argument. 3 pokemon were catered to specifically put a dent in stall (marowak especially is brought up as "6-0ing stall") but still failed to completely break it.

Everyone with a half brain knows the "bring a stallbreaker" argument is bogus. I don't think there are any real thoughts to be conveyed without the horde of theorymonners coming in waves.

With Mega Mawiles release so near i wanted to ask if some on could tell me or link me the reasoning for its ban back in XY and ORAS

It was just way too strong long story short. Sucker Punch mitigated its speed issue and conventional checks keeled over to different variants. It had a similar power to Landorus for comparison sake.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Stall vs. Offense
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-250787
This SPL replay is very interesting in my opinion since Destiny Device has multiple pokemon that people repeatedly say are "stallbreakers", plays pretty well, but still loses to the default stall build.
They had:
-SD Alolan Marowak
-SD SStrike Lando with rocks
-Spikes Greninja

What happened to them was:
-Marowak SDanced, killed Chansey, then got pursuited by dugtrio twice (dugtrio could do this because the sash was still intact because skarm could defog on lando)
-Landorus got up rocks, killed clef with SSSS, and then got up rocks a few more times (though skarm would come in and defog them pretty easily)
-Greninja got knocked off while hydro pumping Sableye and could not break it to get up spikes

After that Skarmory + Toxapex walled the rest of the team. Also interesting to note that Arena Trap did nothing this game (the threat of trapping metagross didn't really matter because metagross couldn't kill skarmory).

Thoughts? I feel like this puts a dent in the "to beat stall you just have to bring a stallbreaker" argument. 3 pokemon were catered to specifically put a dent in stall (marowak especially is brought up as "6-0ing stall") but still failed to completely break it.

Something I found interesting is that Marowak was running Earthquake as opposed to Bonemerang. Bonemerang would have killed Dugtrio through its sash, though because both players would have presumably known this, it wouldn't have been as simple killing Dugtrio with Bonemerang, because TheThorn could have predicted that and eliminated Marowak with Earthquake.

 

[Martin]

Can we not have another Mawile discussion after the last one was shut down literally four days ago? Seriously, can people just wait for it to be released before they start theorymonning out of their arses?

*ahem*

Anyway, to try and keep this thread on the topic of the current meta, I've been finding myself enjoying using Mamoswine recently. STAB Ice Shard is a godsend in a meta where Lando is everywhere, and the ability to check things like Tapu Koko gives it decent defensive utility. It is just generally surprisingly hard to switch into a lot of the time, and outside of stuff like Skarmory and Bronzong there isn't really that much that comfortably takes its dual STABs on a consistent basis. It's pretty flexible and provides role compression, which I like a lot.

 

[Morningstar]

Anyway, to try and keep this thread on the topic of the current meta, I've been finding myself enjoying using Mamoswine recently. STAB Ice Shard is a godsend in a meta where Lando is everywhere, and the ability to check things like Tapu Koko gives it decent defensive utility. It is just generally surprisingly hard to switch into a lot of the time, and outside of stuff like Skarmory and Bronzong there isn't really that much that comfortably takes its dual STABs on a consistent basis. It's pretty flexible and provides role compression, which I like a lot.

I have a question, have you tried pairing Mamoswine with a U-turn or Volt Switch user? Those moves might be useful in getting an opening in for Mamoswine.