Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v3

[Scarf Nihilego]

Which of the remaining unreleased Megas will make the biggest impact on OU, in your opinion? Hard to say, but I would lean toward Mega Lopunny. Starting with 135 Speed without relying on Fake Out means it basically has two free moveslots, and it has so many options: Sub + PuP, Ice Punch, Quick Attack, Healing Wish, you know. It still hits more than hard enough against offense, though balance and stall would be problematic. Toxapex + Mega Scizor, for instance, seems to shut Mega Lopunny down pretty easily.
I also think Mega Diancie won't be as amazing as people expect. Definitely very good, but it isn't as sturdy as Metagross and 110 Speed is no longer terribly impressive. The three S ranks can all handle it, and looking across A rank many of the Pokemon force it out. Dugtrio in particular removes it with little difficulty. It is however worth noting that Diamond Storm now gives +2 Defense instead of +1, so you can actually survive Bullet Punches...kind of. Of course its selling points (stupid offenses, Fairy typing, Magic Bounce) are still excellent, but I question how effective Mega Diancie will really be. I can see an A-/A rank for it, but I doubt it will rise any further.

 

[drakylon]

Landot really fucks Beedrill up because the Rocky Helmet set puts a limit on the number of times you can click U-Turn on Beedrill, and it's free rocks for the Landot user.

If you see a Lando-T in your opponent's team preview, and they happen to send it in on a U-turn revealing a Rocky Helmet, why not just default to clicking Knock Off to invalidate that helmet for the rest of the battle? Sure, it won't exactly be KOing, but not only are we talking about chip on a 'mon with zero recovery, it also removes the limit on the amount of times Beedrill can U-turn. And even if you predict incorrectly, you're still knocking off an item and doing a decent amount of damage to whatever comes in, and since Beedrill outspeeds every no-item 'mon in the tier barring uncommon Megas such as Aero, Beedrill can still click U-turn with no repercussions.

Ferrothorn, on the other hand, is a different story, since it punishes Beedrill with an ability rather than an item. Even so, it takes a good 32~38% from U-turn and 22~26% from Knock Off, so it can't come in on Beedrill all day.

 

[Sun King]

If you see a Lando-T in your opponent's team preview, and they happen to send it in on a U-turn revealing a Rocky Helmet, why not just default to clicking Knock Off to invalidate that helmet for the rest of the battle? Sure, it won't exactly be KOing, but not only are we talking about chip on a 'mon with zero recovery, it also removes the limit on the amount of times Beedrill can U-turn. And even if you predict incorrectly, you're still knocking off an item and doing a decent amount of damage to whatever comes in, and since Beedrill outspeeds every no-item 'mon in the tier barring uncommon Megas such as Aero, Beedrill can still click U-turn with no repercussions.

Ferrothorn, on the other hand, is a different story, since it punishes Beedrill with an ability rather than an item. Even so, it takes a good 32~38% from U-turn and 22~26% from Knock Off, so it can't come in on Beedrill all day.

Sure, you can click Knock Off and eat the residual, but that doesn't stop Landot from setting rocks and immediately putting you on your back foot. Beedrill often sacrifices a lot of momentum despite the fact that it's supposed to retain or even create it. All of this is also in the context of its pathetic af defenses. If you let it get below ~55%, it's susceptible (reliably) to Greninja's shuriken pre transformation, so it forces you to be REALLY picky about switching it in and/or clicking U-Turn/Knock Off. In a tier with Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, or Rough Skin literally on every team, and Spikes/Rocks difficult to remove it's not that hard to get a Beedrill down to that percentage or to flat out keep it off the field.

I used Beedrill a bunch, and more often than not, it was a non-factor to my wins outside of pressuring Fairies with Poison STAB.

EDIT: Your strategy in handling Landot involves taking Rocky Helmet twice, which means switching into rocks once will put you below a safe health percentage to handle Ash-Greninja.

 

[Gary]

Which of the remaining unreleased Megas will make the biggest impact on OU, in your opinion? Hard to say, but I would lean toward Mega Lopunny. Starting with 135 Speed without relying on Fake Out means it basically has two free moveslots, and it has so many options: Sub + PuP, Ice Punch, Quick Attack, Healing Wish, you know. It still hits more than hard enough against offense, though balance and stall would be problematic. Toxapex + Mega Scizor, for instance, seems to shut Mega Lopunny down pretty easily.
I also think Mega Diancie won't be as amazing as people expect. Definitely very good, but it isn't as sturdy as Metagross and 110 Speed is no longer terribly impressive. The three S ranks can all handle it, and looking across A rank many of the Pokemon force it out. Dugtrio in particular removes it with little difficulty. It is however worth noting that Diamond Storm now gives +2 Defense instead of +1, so you can actually survive Bullet Punches...kind of. Of course its selling points (stupid offenses, Fairy typing, Magic Bounce) are still excellent, but I question how effective Mega Diancie will really be. I can see an A-/A rank for it, but I doubt it will rise any further.

Discussion on unreleased Megas should be discussed in Mega Evolution in Sun and Moon thread.

 

[Colonel M]

Seriously when will people stop riding on Mega Beedrill's dick? We get it it's a Pokemon that can function but oh my God stop giving it so much gas.

Let's talk about a real Pokemon for once:

I think Thundurus-I right now is pretty solid. It's definitely a Pokemon that needs support and doesn't always manpower through teams, but to be frank it's really damn good. This Pokemon has made it onto some Sticky Webs teams with 4 Attacks (Thunderbolt / HP Ice / Incinerate / Sludge Wave) and there's also some that will opt for Taunt or Nasty Plot with Focus Blast. Even though hazard removal being difficult to use works against Thundurus to some points and some things like Tapu Koko simply being more splashable, it literally can run a train through some of the slower teams at the moment with the right support. Sticky Webs or Spikes support can really help Thundurus secure KOes, though honestly you probably could get away without Spikes on this mon just because it murders almost everything after a Nasty Plot with 3 attacks. A lot of people threw it under the bus for Thundurus-T, which I admit has a cool niche with Volt Absorb and simply being stronger, but the 111 Speed is really damn useful because it overcomes Mega Metagross, Gengar, and non-Scarf Latios. It's also faster than Swords Dance Garchomp - which is becoming the more popular set over Choice Scarf.

To almost no one's surprise Mega Medicham has definitely made a large impact in SM OU. It's given Mega Metagross a little more competition for the Mega slot and it has shown with its immediate threat presence and being able to dismantle the majority of non-Mega Sableye teams without any issues. Being that it can pair with Tapu Koko or Tapu Lele for shits and giggles makes it even more monstrous. Fake Out / HJK / Ice Punch / Zen Headbutt or Thunder Punch has been the go-to, though you could argue if you're pairing with Lele and want to specifically use it with Lele that you can drop Fake Out for Thunder Punch. Honestly, though, Fake Out is so good it's hard to pass up even with Psychic Terrain as a factor.

Honestly the rise for Zapdos should have come as no surprise. It's a damn good Pokemon and the 3 Attack Zapdos used around was something I even considered in the background before it got popular (though, unlike others like Obii, I didn't have the balls to use it). 3 Attack Zapdos is just really nice with how the meta wants a solid Electric-type with recovery at times to counteract some things. It soft checks a lot of Pokemon and it's hard to switch into thanks to its coverage. Some people Speed creep pretty hard with it for good reasons too just to make sure it soft checks a little extra at the cost of some bulk - but Zapdos's good typing and access to Roost help it out a lot. I'm really glad this Pokemon is being recognized more because I always feel it is a Pokemon often underrated in the later generations. Just what this mon can offer to teams is really fucking good and I love that its just a Pokemon with a good balance of offensive and defensive prowess. Pressure is legit for an ability too even outside of the Defog bluff.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I think it'll be a crazy day in hell when see lando using imprison hp ice(it covers all I think) and maybe toxic/knock off/rocks

Idk it'd be a hilarious it could be the sillist wall

 

[Randompizza]

Seriously when will people stop riding on Mega Beedrill's dick? We get it it's a Pokemon that can function but oh my God stop giving it so much gas.

Let's talk about a real Pokemon for once:

I think Thundurus-I right now is pretty solid. It's definitely a Pokemon that needs support and doesn't always manpower through teams, but to be frank it's really damn good. This Pokemon has made it onto some Sticky Webs teams with 4 Attacks (Thunderbolt / HP Ice / Incinerate / Sludge Wave) and there's also some that will opt for Taunt or Nasty Plot with Focus Blast. Even though hazard removal being difficult to use works against Thundurus to some points and some things like Tapu Koko simply being more splashable, it literally can run a train through some of the slower teams at the moment with the right support. Sticky Webs or Spikes support can really help Thundurus secure KOes, though honestly you probably could get away without Spikes on this mon just because it murders almost everything after a Nasty Plot with 3 attacks. A lot of people threw it under the bus for Thundurus-T, which I admit has a cool niche with Volt Absorb and simply being stronger, but the 111 Speed is really damn useful because it overcomes Mega Metagross, Gengar, and non-Scarf Latios. It's also faster than Swords Dance Garchomp - which is becoming the more popular set over Choice Scarf.

To almost no one's surprise Mega Medicham has definitely made a large impact in SM OU. It's given Mega Metagross a little more competition for the Mega slot and it has shown with its immediate threat presence and being able to dismantle the majority of non-Mega Sableye teams without any issues. Being that it can pair with Tapu Koko or Tapu Lele for shits and giggles makes it even more monstrous. Fake Out / HJK / Ice Punch / Zen Headbutt or Thunder Punch has been the go-to, though you could argue if you're pairing with Lele and want to specifically use it with Lele that you can drop Fake Out for Thunder Punch. Honestly, though, Fake Out is so good it's hard to pass up even with Psychic Terrain as a factor.

Honestly the rise for Zapdos should have come as no surprise. It's a damn good Pokemon and the 3 Attack Zapdos used around was something I even considered in the background before it got popular (though, unlike others like Obii, I didn't have the balls to use it). 3 Attack Zapdos is just really nice with how the meta wants a solid Electric-type with recovery at times to counteract some things. It soft checks a lot of Pokemon and it's hard to switch into thanks to its coverage. Some people Speed creep pretty hard with it for good reasons too just to make sure it soft checks a little extra at the cost of some bulk - but Zapdos's good typing and access to Roost help it out a lot. I'm really glad this Pokemon is being recognized more because I always feel it is a Pokemon often underrated in the later generations. Just what this mon can offer to teams is really fucking good and I love that its just a Pokemon with a good balance of offensive and defensive prowess. Pressure is legit for an ability too even outside of the Defog bluff.

Ye I honestly feel ya with mbee. In fact it was blacklisted from the vr just because people can't stop theorymonning with it instead of using the 0 experience they have with it to back up their claims.
Thundurus is definitely a solid mon and can definitely can fill a couple of niches that koko cannot. I also feel it's definitely more useful than it's therian counterpart just because it's speed tier is more valuable in this meta. As for Medicham it's definitely a huge threat to any archetype and could go good on webs teams to threaten HO teams that simply outspeed it. Although I feel like tpunch is really not that good even with tapu koko support simply because tpunch under terrain only hits like msab, while zen just hits all kinds of things like mvenu, alowak, or even clef. Not to mention neutral zen does more damage than neutral tpunch under terrain. And I also feel psy terrain boosted zen would do massive damage regardless of Fake Out not working as you said.

Zapdos is also good as it's probably the best defog user atm since mosa is gone. It's coverage is perfect actually, it hits grounds, steels, and also bulky waters like fini and pex. And it having roost is a boon as it gets recovery unlike the only other relevant defogger in the tier (Fini,which I feel is lacking in a meta without mosa) and can also do stuff like playing mindgames with stone edge mons and such.

Now just so this post isn't an echo of someone else's, I'd like to bring up some discussions around certain mons:

Mew:

Seems pretty anti-meta atm. Of course I haven't used it yet, but the defensive set from oras could be good on some bulkier teams to check stuff like the newly released mmedi.It can tank hits from physical attackers and wisps them.
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 140-165 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- 59.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mew in Electric Terrain: 163-192 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Not even eterrain punch 2hkoes it.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 150-177 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Metagross's most powerful move can't 2hko it.
+2 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 335-395 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery It can even live +2 continental crush from lando.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 201-237 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery however mmaws play rough has a chance to 2hko it so be careful around it.
Of course this is with max def, obviously you can run some speed on it but max max does so good in this meta.

And starmie:

I know that this has been brought up earlier, but I feel it does relatively good without pheromosa in the tier. Besides from exca, which loses to the most common rocker and most common mon in general in the tier, it is the only viable option for a spinner atm. It has great coverage and hits hard with analytic boosted stab, so it can actually fulfill more roles than just a spinner. I feel it's really underestimated in this meta with stuff like lando, gross,etc. Also it doesn't lose against gren (most common spiker in the tier) and takes a hit from mgross provided it doesn't have tpunch.
0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 185-218 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock As you can see it can even come in on stealth rocks and either remove gren or get rid of hazards. Although it can't switch in, you can still double into it on the expected gren, or go into it after a mon has been fainted by gren. Also, some people say it loses to the other spiker, ferro, however, hp fire, while niche, can remedy that problem.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 218-260 (61.9 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and it with analytic boost it has a chance to ohko with spikes up.
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 286-338 (81.2 - 96%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 135-159 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO mgross's most powerful move against starmie besides tpunch lets it live which lets it do this:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 179-212 (59.4 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO it gets heavy chip against the best mega in the tier which is valuable regardless of if starmie dies. Also it 1v1s gross as long as you don't switch it in on the attack and it doesn't have tpunch. Hopefully this will spark some discussion :]

 

[Egyptianmego5]

You forgot about adding analytic in the calcs ^

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

You forgot about adding analytic in the calcs ^

Analytic Starmie isn't that good because it has 115 speed (a bit too fast for it). Thus Natural Cure is a thing.

 

[Finchinator]

Analytic Starmie isn't that good because it has 115 speed (a bit too fast for it). Thus Natural Cure is a thing.

Analytic is the only ability offensive Starmie should ever use. It does more damage when forcing a switch and this is quntissential in threatening opposing Pokemon to a sufficient extent. It has been standard dating back to BW OU and it remains the norm on offensive variants of Starmie (not that it's too common, but it still should be used over Natural Cure on the LO variants). Please refrain from posting when you either lack experience with the Pokemon itself or lack sufficient knowledge of the set itself, as you clearly lack one of the two.

 

[BeardyBennett]

Might be an odd question but how is Lele doing nowadays? Feels like I haven't heard anything about it in a long time after there was quite a bit of discussion surrounding it. I remember when it and Phero were being identified as OP powerhouses in the meta. Is it still as meta-defining as it used to be, or has it settled into a less prominent role in the meta?

 

[Randompizza]

You forgot about adding analytic in the calcs ^

How do you do that? I didn't see a button for it.

Edit: ok thx Ramses :]

 

[Ramses]

How do you do that? I didn't see a button for it.

You drop Starmie's Speed all the way down to 1, and by that I mean the actual base stat not the EVs. Alternatively, you maximize the opposing Pokemon's Speed stat to 255.

 

[57west]

So I've been experimenting with Mewnium Z on the ladder and I'm a bit confused why it isn't more common, It turns Mew into an excellent late game cleaner with a Rock Polish double dance set

Mew @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 96 HP / 252 SpA / 160 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Rock Polish
- Flamethrower /Aura Sphere
- Calm Mind/Nasty Plot

 

[Sun King]

Popping in to say that Defog Mew really gives Medicham teams a lot of trouble. It's able to defog away Sticky Webs and any other hazard, and it can take any hits Medicham throws and then threaten with a burn. Not that I've noticed a lot of them, but I can definitely see Mews showing up on more teams in the future to deal with the monster that is Medicham.

 

[Randompizza]

Popping in to say that Defog Mew really gives Medicham teams a lot of trouble. It's able to defog away Sticky Webs and any other hazard, and it can take any hits Medicham throws and then threaten with a burn. Not that I've noticed a lot of them, but I can definitely see Mews showing up on more teams in the future to deal with the monster that is Medicham.

Yeah as I stated earlier, Mew gives most physical attackers in the tier trouble including mmedi, mgross, lando, etc. that run the tier. And yeah I feel it's really underrated as it function as a check to those physical mons as well as being a reliable defogger with recovery (cough tapu fini i'm looking at you cough.) Heck even it's double dance sweeper set puts in work against teams that are weakened enough or rely on priority as it's way of dealing with setup (since mewinium z sets psy terrain) so ye mew is definitely good atm. Hopefully people recognize it's something to prep for.

 

[Toshiro46]

I've seen more than one Z-Happy Hour Protean Greninja acting as a sort of sweeper similar to z-conversion porygon z. The few times I've faced it, it's not done much but make me feel better about facing protean gren and dying soon after it uses its Z-move. Is there any merit to this, or is it just a gag set? I feel like Gren's utility is wasted with no spikes and only 3 attacking moves and there's better options for sweepers.

 

[volx757]

I've seen more than one Z-Happy Hour Protean Greninja acting as a sort of sweeper similar to z-conversion porygon z. The few times I've faced it, it's not done much but make me feel better about facing protean gren and dying soon after it uses its Z-move. Is there any merit to this, or is it just a gag set? I feel like Gren's utility is wasted with no spikes and only 3 attacking moves and there's better options for sweepers.

was this asked like a couple days ago? anyway, yeah it's p much just a waste. One of the few things that switch into most ninja safely are on every (good) team, and it's not too hard to pressure it to switch out and thus be one move down and no LO. It's not entirely a gag, but coverage gren and spikes gren are just so much better at what they do, and tbh coverage gren is probly a better cleaner cause you don't really have to worry about getting rid of 'checks' and 'counters' lol.
As happy hour gren, you're either dropping gunk (never run ninja w/out gunk), hp fire (electric/grass) letting more steels wall you, or one of ice beam or hydro, and a ninja that doesn't run water or ice stab is bad.

 

[Chief of Elementals]

was this asked like a couple days ago? anyway, yeah it's p much just a waste. One of the few things that switch into most ninja safely are on every (good) team, and it's not too hard to pressure it to switch out and thus be one move down and no LO. It's not entirely a gag, but coverage gren and spikes gren are just so much better at what they do, and tbh coverage gren is probly a better cleaner cause you don't really have to worry about getting rid of 'checks' and 'counters' lol.
As happy hour gren, you're either dropping gunk (never run ninja w/out gunk), hp fire (electric/grass) letting more steels wall you, or one of ice beam or hydro, and a ninja that doesn't run water or ice stab is bad.

I think that Z-Happy Hour Gren is ok, but the problem is that there are other greninja sets like Protean Coverage and Battle Bond Specs that can do way, WAY, better than Happy Hour Sweeping...

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

The only advantage is the speed and defense boosts otherwise it gets the same power with specs and with Z happy hour You have to run psychic coverage to not be trashed by haze toxpex, but with the boost You barely do more than with the life orb.

Honestly You're better off running pursuit ash form

EDIT:neither learn pursui

 

[Chief of Elementals]

Forget everything I have said in detraction of Megacham. It is one of the greatest threats in our metagame today, rivalling Mega-Metagross for that Mega Slot. Who thinks that Megacham and Pure Power is super useful? What are your thoughts on Mega Cham in General?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I'm just happy there's another team type that sheD stall smashes mega cham is negative momentum vs it

But there's like nothing that can avoid a 2 hit ko if they take neutral damage from one of its stabs unless it runs something like jolly Pow-up punch

I've noticed a large up tick in pursuit tho like banded scizor or weevils

Maybe it's just the 1500-1600 range

 

[Reviloja753]

Okay, so the analysis for arguably the best Pokémon in the tier- Mega Metagross, has been published. As such, I would like to take this opportunity to discuss why I believe Mega Metagross should be suspected. I'm going to be using the analysis as a reference point, so keep that in mind. Also, let me know if this is a topic I should be talking about in the Mega Evolution thread.

The one thing I think we can all agree on is that this thing has monstrous offense. In fact, Tough Claws Mega Metagross effectively has 7 more base attack than Kartana, the highest base attack stat without megas, and the third overall (this doesn't count Huge Power btw). And sure it runs LO, so it is a somewhat moot point. However, the difference between MegaGross and Kartana is that Kartana is also extremely fragile will crummy HP and horrible Special Defense. It does however, have decent physical defense. MegaGross on the other hand, has an extra 20 Defense, an extra 30 HP, and a solid 110 Special Defense. Also, it also has essentially the same speed as Kartana. All of these things combined make MegaGross extremely difficult to handle. As for the things that were listed as counters and checks, the only one I can see really working is Mega Scizor, but even then, it has to compete with the very thing it counters for a mega slot, so it is a somewhat moot point. Tangrowth may be able to use EQ and weaken MegaGross for a partner to take advantage of, but this seems to me as if you need to use two slots on your team to deal with this thing. Rotom-W is actually something I have not seen much of this generation (surprisingly), and I personally don't see a point in sacrificing STAB for coverage, as while it has something immune to it, Psychic is only resisted by itself and Steel and has more base power than Ice Punch. Bronzong is something I have not seen this entire generation, and why would you stay in against Garchomp, Greninja or Lando-T? Also, since Power Construct was banned, Zygarde has faded away from the meta as far as I can tell.

Tl;dr: Mega Metagross is 2op4me. Please suspect this monster.

 

[TheHungrySnorlax]

Okay, so the analysis for arguably the best Pokémon in the tier- Mega Metagross, has been published. As such, I would like to take this opportunity to discuss why I believe Mega Metagross should be suspected. I'm going to be using the analysis as a reference point, so keep that in mind. Also, let me know if this is a topic I should be talking about in the Mega Evolution thread.

The one thing I think we can all agree on is that this thing has monstrous offense. In fact, Tough Claws Mega Metagross effectively has 7 more base attack than Kartana, the highest base attack stat without megas, and the third overall (this doesn't count Huge Power btw). And sure it runs LO, so it is a somewhat moot point. However, the difference between MegaGross and Kartana is that Kartana is also extremely fragile will crummy HP and horrible Special Defense. It does however, have decent physical defense. MegaGross on the other hand, has an extra 20 Defense, an extra 30 HP, and a solid 110 Special Defense. Also, it also has essentially the same speed as Kartana. All of these things combined make MegaGross extremely difficult to handle. As for the things that were listed as counters and checks, the only one I can see really working is Mega Scizor, but even then, it has to compete with the very thing it counters for a mega slot, so it is a somewhat moot point. Tangrowth may be able to use EQ and weaken MegaGross for a partner to take advantage of, but this seems to me as if you need to use two slots on your team to deal with this thing. Rotom-W is actually something I have not seen much of this generation (surprisingly), and I personally don't see a point in sacrificing STAB for coverage, as while it has something immune to it, Psychic is only resisted by itself and Steel and has more base power than Ice Punch. Bronzong is something I have not seen this entire generation, and why would you stay in against Garchomp, Greninja or Lando-T? Also, since Power Construct was banned, Zygarde has faded away from the meta as far as I can tell.

Tl;dr: Mega Metagross is 2op4me. Please suspect this monster.

I would just like to point out that zygarde was never an answer to mega meta(however its 10% forme checked it). Zygarde is still very relevant in the metagame even without its complete forme, as its sub coil, double dance, and choice band sets have made such an impact on the tier(specifically subcoil) that Pokémon like tangrowth and lando are running hp Ice just to prevent themselves from becoming setup fodder. You cannot really compare kartana and mega metagross even though they are both threatening physical steel type attackers, kartana is a late game cleaner with scarf or a z move of its choice, while meta is used as a beatstick that offense can actually afford to have switch into some threats, while punching holes throughout the game effectively. Yes, it possesses a combination of immense power and coverage, along with fantastic bulk, but as SwaggyG mentioned, it cannot cover everything in its moveset, so once its moves are revealed, it is much easier to exploit. Scouting for its moveslots by double switching or by looking at its teammates at team preview can help you to determine what coverage moves meta is potentially carrying.

 

[Toshiro46]

Okay, so the analysis for arguably the best Pokémon in the tier- Mega Metagross, has been published. As such, I would like to take this opportunity to discuss why I believe Mega Metagross should be suspected. I'm going to be using the analysis as a reference point, so keep that in mind. Also, let me know if this is a topic I should be talking about in the Mega Evolution thread.

The one thing I think we can all agree on is that this thing has monstrous offense. In fact, Tough Claws Mega Metagross effectively has 7 more base attack than Kartana, the highest base attack stat without megas, and the third overall (this doesn't count Huge Power btw). And sure it runs LO, so it is a somewhat moot point. However, the difference between MegaGross and Kartana is that Kartana is also extremely fragile will crummy HP and horrible Special Defense. It does however, have decent physical defense. MegaGross on the other hand, has an extra 20 Defense, an extra 30 HP, and a solid 110 Special Defense. Also, it also has essentially the same speed as Kartana. All of these things combined make MegaGross extremely difficult to handle. As for the things that were listed as counters and checks, the only one I can see really working is Mega Scizor, but even then, it has to compete with the very thing it counters for a mega slot, so it is a somewhat moot point. Tangrowth may be able to use EQ and weaken MegaGross for a partner to take advantage of, but this seems to me as if you need to use two slots on your team to deal with this thing. Rotom-W is actually something I have not seen much of this generation (surprisingly), and I personally don't see a point in sacrificing STAB for coverage, as while it has something immune to it, Psychic is only resisted by itself and Steel and has more base power than Ice Punch. Bronzong is something I have not seen this entire generation, and why would you stay in against Garchomp, Greninja or Lando-T? Also, since Power Construct was banned, Zygarde has faded away from the meta as far as I can tell.

Tl;dr: Mega Metagross is 2op4me. Please suspect this monster.

>Argues Megagross's clear superiority over Kartana is grounds for a ban when Kartana isn't that good of a mon
>Argues using Mega Scizor is moot because then you can't use Megagross.
>Randomly brings up Rotom-W I suppose as a check but doesn't even mention WoW.
>says Bronzong is absent from the meta when it has a niche specifically for checking Megagross.
>Asks why would you stay in against Garchomp and Lando when Megagross has Ice Punch and outspeeds/KOs both of them.
>Says Zygarde isn't in the meta

Ok dude.

It may just be me, but I haven't seen stall near as much recently. I think the rise of various stall breaker sets (Heatran, Fini, Lele, etc) have actually done their job and diminished the influence of stall rn.