Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

[Berks]

Cheek Pouch bby that's pretty much just me, if anyone else wants to join the campaign i'd welcome them though. Here's why i hate Abra so much: like trapping, it makes pokemon a fundamentally different game, but unlike trapping, there are no positives that can be taken from it. I hate to dichotomize but it makes the argument simpler, so here goes: there are two uses for Abra, the "bad player" way and the "good player" way.

The bad player way focuses on using Abra as a way to not have to play well; he can allow anything to happen and be like "hurr durr abra hurr" and the player setting up has no way of combatting that, a fact that can be said about surprisingly little in the metagame. Checks and counters to setup mons can be worn down and eliminated; however, the nature of Abra means that doesn't happen. The only thing that can beat Abra in terms of setup mons (im discounting the rare few which naturally get by, such as shellder) is setting with two mons. Sturdy can be beaten with hazards, which creates an interesting subgame which can decide battles. Both the weakening of checks and hazard wars are examples of higher-level play while Abra is not.


Good players who use Abra say they use it for a different reason. I remember in an old Ray Jay thread Hawkstar talking about how he uses Abra to leverage battle situations; the example he used (i think) was bulk up wars between timburrs where he won if his timburr prevailed and didn't lose if it failed because he had abra on his team. I've always assumed an inherent part of pokemon decisions was risk / reward, and the use of Abra seems to remove that, turning specific situations into: 50% win vs. little risk. Idk it just seems shitty to me to turn the game into "imma flip this coin twice / three times and if i get heads once i'll win" where in this case setup mons are the coin and heads is winning a specific 50/50 situation where you're saved by Abra if you lose.

In terms of the metagame as a whole, pretty much nothing would change, I feel "safe" balance v-turns would go down slightly because setup mons would be more viable but people already love that shit, i mean maybe there would be less Stunky but it's still a fantastic way to murk Gastly so it'd see similar usage. Really Abra is sort of an anomaly: it doesn't contribute to team synergy at all, it's only used as a panic button or way to leverage other teams.

Before I have my post ripped up by opportunistic users looking for a meaningful contribution (dudes this was me very recently) note i did not: 1) Claim Abra was overpowered or 2) Claim Abra restricts teambuilding. If you're going to address flaws in this post, of which there is likely a great number, please try and stick to the confines of my argument. I understand Abra does not meet the standard criteria for "broken" and that banning it is a ridiculous proposition for which there is no precedent; however, i feel we'd have a better, more fun metagame without it for little cost to our current balanced tier.

Just to be clear, this would essentially just ban SashBra, correct? Because I feel like other Abra sets like LO (the only one, really) contribute very well to team synergy as wincons or stallbreakers (TauntBra4lyfe). I'm all for that kind of complex ban, but don't ban Abra.

Additionally, I would be against banning SturdyJuice, as they cannot function as this sort of panic button if hazards are up. Thus, they can only be beaten or utilized by smart play (hazards/removal) and aren't on the same level as SashBra.

 

[boo836]

If we ban abra, why not just ban Solosis too, since it pretty much does the same thing.

Seriously tho, abra's meant to take care of setup sweepers. That's pretty much its only job aside from lo sets. It might be annoying, but it does go to show that you cannot rely on just one win condition to pull a sweep. As for cost, it has very little synergy with anything because it never comes in, and it only ever deals with one mon. If anything, Abra sacrifices momentum by keeping your opp up one. Dunno about you, but i actually have difficulty finding a spot on my teams for abra for those reasons.

 

[Goldland]

I think Abra is actually very healthy to the meta, and it's certainly one of the few viable HO mons that can be used to stop a general ammount of set up sweepers, but that's pratically his only function.
He's just a revenge killer that can't afford to switch into almost anything in this meta (bar other rare psychic types), so he better be good at doing the only thing he actually can do reliably.
Without abra, there's a considerable ammount of mons and strats that simply can set up after Stealth Rocks, and sweep half your team, and in my opinion that is far more "dumb", centralizing and "luck based" playing than having a sash abra.

Also, a lot of other mons, even ranked S ones, are as "dumb" and a no-brainer choice as sash Abra, that actually has a very specific function and barely works on any other function.
Let's say Pawniard: Opponent have trick room? No problem, i have pawniard. Opponent has sticky web or defog? Great, my defiant +2 sucker punch loves that. Need a steel type that forces plenty of mons the need to carry specific moves to counter it that'd be otherwise useless, including abra carrying HP fighting? Pawniard is your man. Is the opponent stall based team? No problem, pawniard can just knock off half of the team and it doesn't even matter if he died because he did his job with a few brainless knock off. Need someone for your own trick room or sticky web team? Pawniard again, he's your man since he'll be able to outspeed them either way.
There's actually very few reasons to not have a pawniard on your team as a general safe knock off/sucker punch user that hits really hard, whatever is the team you have.

Mienfoo: Want a mon that can 2hko most things in the meta and switch out at full health? Mienfoo is your man, want a slow passer/u-turner that regenerates it's hp on switching? Mienfoo. Want a taunter that can stop and 2HKO almost any hazard setter in the meta, bar speed ties? Mienfoo. Want a mon that is potentially unpredictable in coverage and can run coverage to several of your checks, like rock moves on birds, knock off on psychic and pjab on fairy, or that can simply u-turn out of them with regen, or even deal hard damage by some orthodox set like life orb/scarf reckless HJK? Or inner focus user with the specific function of surprising opponents with fake out? People are forced to run snubbull and spritzee almost only for mienfoo reasons, and from the moment that nothing can consistently switch into any set of Mienfoo and get away intact, or even fearing possible alternative sets that have different answers, this also makes mienfoo a dumb choice out of the sheer utility he can have and the surprise factor he might have too. The fact that he outspeeds much of the tier, makes it so it's not until after having been hit by a 2HKO HJK or knock off that you'll realize that Mienfoo was scarfed, or it's not until you were forced out that you'll discover that he's carrying a SD/BU+BP set. Mienfoo doesn't care about hazards, being outsped or even checked, and he's a dumb choice that can work on several different functions and still excell at them, whatever team you're building, you don't need to think hard for why mienfoo is the man you need.

So, in summary, that Abra is a convenient revenge killer for hyper offensive styles? Sure. But that doesn't make sash abra any less of a legitimate choice than many mons in the meta, and it's not a broken mon, nor even centralizing, and there's no reason for it to be suspected just because he's "incovenient" because he's consistently good at revenge killing a sweeper on a sash set, that is in itself a very specific function that loses a lot of utility by sacrificing life orb.

 

[boo836]

Can we please just agree that suspecting foo, pawn, abra ect is a be idea?
How about we just talk about Sprout, since it's basically an autowin unless you are lucky enough to check the set.
Remember, tangela also had a large movepool that it could abuse fully with sun. Sprout aint different.
Of all sweepers these days, I've found that sweeping with Sprout is incredibly easy, even against the better made teams.
Moreover, the centralizing power of sun requires teams to run multiple sun checks. Lucyera sun had me running Archen AND Fletch.

 

[Merritt]

I think Abra is actually very healthy to the meta, and it's certainly one of the few viable HO mons that can be used to stop a general ammount of set up sweepers, but that's pratically his only function.
He's just a revenge killer that can't afford to switch into almost anything in this meta (bar other rare psychic types), so he better be good at doing the only thing he actually can do reliably.
Without abra, there's a considerable ammount of mons and strats that simply can set up after Stealth Rocks, and sweep half your team, and in my opinion that is far more "dumb", centralizing and "luck based" playing than having a sash abra.

Also, a lot of other mons, even ranked S ones, are as "dumb" and a no-brainer choice as sash Abra, that actually has a very specific function and barely works on any other function.
Let's say Pawniard: Opponent have trick room? No problem, i have pawniard. Opponent has sticky web or defog? Great, my defiant +2 sucker punch loves that. Need a steel type that forces plenty of mons the need to carry specific moves to counter it that'd be otherwise useless, including abra carrying HP fighting? Pawniard is your man. Is the opponent stall based team? No problem, pawniard can just knock off half of the team and it doesn't even matter if he died because he did his job with a few brainless knock off. Need someone for your own trick room or sticky web team? Pawniard again, he's your man since he'll be able to outspeed them either way.
There's actually very few reasons to not have a pawniard on your team as a general safe knock off/sucker punch user that hits really hard, whatever is the team you have.

Mienfoo: Want a mon that can 2hko most things in the meta and switch out at full health? Mienfoo is your man, want a slow passer/u-turner that regenerates it's hp on switching? Mienfoo. Want a taunter that can stop and 2HKO almost any hazard setter in the meta, bar speed ties? Mienfoo. Want a mon that is potentially unpredictable in coverage and can run coverage to several of your checks, like rock moves on birds, knock off on psychic and pjab on fairy, or that can simply u-turn out of them with regen, or even deal hard damage by some orthodox set like life orb/scarf reckless HJK? Or inner focus user with the specific function of surprising opponents with fake out? People are forced to run snubbull and spritzee almost only for mienfoo reasons, and from the moment that nothing can consistently switch into any set of Mienfoo and get away intact, or even fearing possible alternative sets that have different answers, this also makes mienfoo a dumb choice out of the sheer utility he can have and the surprise factor he might have too. The fact that he outspeeds much of the tier, makes it so it's not until after having been hit by a 2HKO HJK or knock off that you'll realize that Mienfoo was scarfed, or it's not until you were forced out that you'll discover that he's carrying a SD/BU+BP set. Mienfoo doesn't care about hazards, being outsped or even checked, and he's a dumb choice that can work on several different functions and still excell at them, whatever team you're building, you don't need to think hard for why mienfoo is the man you need.

So, in summary, that Abra is a convenient revenge killer for hyper offensive styles? Sure. But that doesn't make sash abra any less of a legitimate choice than many mons in the meta, and it's not a broken mon, nor even centralizing, and there's no reason for it to be suspected just because he's "incovenient" because he's consistently good at revenge killing a sweeper on a sash set, that is in itself a very specific function that loses a lot of utility by sacrificing life orb.

The difference is, of course, that both Mienfoo and Pawniard have hard counters, unlike SashBra, who not only requires two hits before it goes down (and with 19 speed it's probably going to hit your counter three times). Pawniard has Timburr, who can switch in, take two hits, and OHKO.

236 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 76 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Timburr: 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO

Mienfoo has Snubbull and Spritzee, who beat even the most offensive set with Poison Jab.

-1 236 Atk Life Orb Mienfoo Poison Jab vs. 116 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Snubbull: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

236 Atk Life Orb Mienfoo Poison Jab vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

Abra, on the other hand, has fewer solid answers. Ferroseed's a decent answer, for example, as long as RNG doesn't screw you over.

240 SpA Abra Hidden Power Fighting vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 8-10 (36.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

36 Atk Ferroseed Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 18-21 (94.7 - 110.5%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
(If Ferroseed gets two hits, it loses, if it gets 3 it probably loses, if it gets more it wins.)

Munchlax, of course, is a great choice, avoiding the 3HKO with its bulky resttalk set and O(2)HKOing back. Abra has answers, they're just less common. What this means that that Abra will usually get a kill every match, but a lot of the time only one kill, since it does lack power without Life Orb.

boo836 Bellsprout isn't this amazeballs sweeper you give it credit for. It is on a timer, which is only compounded by its bulk (or lack thereof). If you set up sun with Vulpix, you have to struggle to get Bellsprout in. Even with the "optimal" situation of Vulpix getting sacked when it switches in, Bellsprout still suffers from vulnerability to priority and things that can take an attack from it. Bellsprout doesn't have attacking power that's quite overwhelming enough to go with its temporary speed. Growth can alleviate that somewhat... But now you're a turn less in the sun and had to deal with giving your opponent a free turn.

Can it sweep? Sure. That doesn't mean its overwhelming like Tangela, who was both more powerful and could function without sun.

Overall, I don't really think anything needs a ban/suspect.

 

[sam-testings]

I have recently found out that if you switch in an evioliteless foo into an iron head from pawniard, it dies to sucker punch right afterwards.

Just a thought.

Also, Tangela was also on a timer. The sole reason Sprout isn't as good as Tangela is because it has no recovery. It is also really easy to kill outside of sun. Tangela was not so easy with that defenses. I'm neutral on this though, as I've never seen bell sprout in action.

 

[fatty]

Can we please just agree that suspecting foo, pawn, abra ect is a be idea?
How about we just talk about Sprout, since it's basically an autowin unless you are lucky enough to check the set.
Remember, tangela also had a large movepool that it could abuse fully with sun. Sprout aint different.
Of all sweepers these days, I've found that sweeping with Sprout is incredibly easy, even against the better made teams.
Moreover, the centralizing power of sun requires teams to run multiple sun checks. Lucyera sun had me running Archen AND Fletch.

Can you please stop acting like Bellsprout being broken in a foregone conclusion, it is most certainly not an autowin. One of the farthest things from it. The simple fact that it needs sun AND most likely a free turn to set up makes it not an autowin lol. Also, did you really just compare Tangela to Bellsprout? They both can be chlorophyll sweepers, but the comparison begins and ends there. Tangela was both more powerful and significantly more bulky. Continually, Tangela was also lethal outside of sun, whereas Bellsprout is not in the slightest. Furthermore, sun is not centralizing lol. Personally, I can't remember the last time I made a team that I specifically had in mind "oh fuck, how am I going to beat sun". Most of the time, it can even just come down to good play. Heaven forbid you have to run Archen AND Fletchling, two of the best pokemon in the metagame who happen to actually synergize well, Archen providing SR and Defog support while luring in and weakening possible Flying checks. If I'm running Fletchling most of the time I'm running Archen as well. Not to mention those two mons are only scratching the surface of pokemon that can check aspects of sun offense.

 

[sam-testings]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ad-before-posting-in-suspect-threads.3522684/

please read. Have a nice day.

 

[Tymano]

Maybe, instead of banning sprout, we should suspect the whole reason sprout and vulpix are viable in this meta, Drought, because one of the tiers current biggest threats at the moment, Vulpix, would not be good or viable without the hidden ability, and neither would Sprout due to the fact that they function under sun support, and they are both deadly with it, so Sprout is not the problem, it is Drought, so Suspect Drought.

 

[boo836]

Stop posting on sprout. Nobody was serious and all posts from me on it are acrostic.

That all said, suspecting drought would be the wrong way to go policy wise. Most mons under sun aren't even that bad. We would only suspect the abusers as individuals, not as a whole, since we'd be killing a viable playstyle for no reason otherwise.

 

[tazz]

I hate to post a question but it's pretty vital to what to nominate and how to debate.

Do we ban/free solely on brokenness, or can things that are considered unhealthy and are making the meta less fun be banned as well?

 

[Yagura]

Stop posting on sprout. Nobody was serious and all posts from me on it is an acrostic.

That all said, suspecting drought would be the wrong way to go policy wise. Most mons under sun aren't even that bad. We would only suspect the abusers as individuals, not as a whole, since we'd be killing a viable playstyle for no reason otherwise.

As someone that used sun a bunch after Misdreavus' ban (you can even say that I abused it?) I can say that Bellsprout under the sun is a total problem that can be really hard to deal with and revenge kill if you don't have a Fletchling/Vullaby and that given if Fletchling isn't in the Sucker Punch range (the opponent can predict that and go for a Roost but that isn't likely) or a scarfer can revenge kill it too, there are some few Pokémon that can tank a hit from it but they all fear Sleep Powder if they aren't running Rest Talk but Bellsprout can also run Growth and surprise people who will go with Rest Talk, keep in mind that you either use Sleep Powder, Growth, or Sucker Punch so you can't have them both and win the scenario of the opponent having both Fletchling and a bulky Normal-type such as Munchlax but seriously who will run both of them solely to deal with Bellsprout, that sounds like over centralization doesn't it? Isn't that a problem especially for offensive teams that can't deal with Bellsprout except with some obvious scarfers such as Mienfoo and Fletchling that can be dealt with easily by choosing the right teammates? But to be honest, I don't think the problem is about Bellsprout to be honest but I'll be fine with it leaving too, however I prefer that either Drought or Vulpix leave the tier to fix that, yea that will affect other Chlorphyll sweepers and other silly mons that benefit from sun such as lol Helioptile but LO Vulpix is a total deadly nuke that can 2HKO anything that doesn't resist its Fire Blast while under the sun, but yeah like I said I'll be fine with their a Bellsprout/Drought/Vulpix suspect.

 

[macle]

I hate to post a question but it's pretty vital to what to nominate and how to debate.

Do we ban/free solely on brokenness, or can things that are considered unhealthy and are making the meta less fun be banned as well?

We don't ban or unban based on fun or staleness.

 

[Rowan]

okay. let's stop talking about the suspect process, and actually talk about the metagame. If you have a problem with the suspect process atm, bring it up with me and macle via pm, don't chat shit here. read blara's post and also the avalanches's post for the reasons as to why we do suspects like this. me and macle carried on using blara's system because it has always worked well in the past, and it gives the community a chance to think about the metagame. TA's post (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread.3505710/page-37#post-6061752) is very good at explaining this, so just give that a read please

also, at the end of the day, this is just the metagame discussion thread, not the official suspect discussion

I want this thread to be people analysing potential suspects and talking about the impact they have on the metagame. whether they are broken, and whether they are making the metagame shit, with actual reasons. I want to bring this discussion back to actual serious suspects (if anyone trolls about random suspects again, serious infractions will be made)


Mienfoo, Pawniard, Fletchling, Diglett, Gothita, and only a couple more are probably worthy of any discussion atm. I'm not saying you can't bring anything else up, but if you do, make sure your post is a good one. I'm not against suspecting other things such as sprout, knock off, abra, webs but this just seems extremely unlikely atm, and it'd be best if we steered discussion towards the more prominent threats of the metagame.

Now, as for mienfoo, the problem is that it supports everything amazingly well. there is nothing that doesn't benefit from easy switchins and knock off. however, something i like to think about when thinking about suspects is how easy can these pokemon become a liability? mienfoo is often seen as something which is never a liability to the opposing team becasue of its momentum grabbing opportunities. however, although it often doesn't die, towards the end of the game it starts to become more and more useless. during the endgame of many battles, it is easy to take advantage of. if we're just talking about the bulky set, it is never sweeping anything, and it's not really walling anything at the end of the game. all it does is support and pivot early-mid game. The question is 'does the support mienfoo provides towards the early-mid game provide a team using mienfoo a significant advantage against a team not using mienfoo?' To be honest, there are so many contributing factors in pokemon that it's pretty impossible to come up with an objective answer to this question. I'm not saying I have an answer myself, but if it were to be banned, I think that the support it provides would be the reason. I think discussion about mienfoo would benefit from thinking about that question.

IF ANYONE ELSE TROLLS WITH UNSERIOUS POSTS ABOUT SUSPECTS, SERIOUS INFRACTIONS WILL BE GIVEN

 

[boo836]

So apparently people want me to make a serious post.

Well, Yanma's been discussed a lot now that we've seen substantial metagame shifts. These days in oras, we see mons such as Ponyta, Archen, Fletch, Pawniard, ect with a lot more viability than ever before. We've become less worried about Sleep since Foongus struggles for a place, and the lack of heavy hitters like Tangela, Swirlix, Missy, ect allow us to set up Stealth Rock without fear of being unable to gain momentum. Looking at Yanma, it's clearly a momentum generator, much like Fletch or Mienfoo, and has its own unique features to stand out. Yet, these features arent really gamebreaking. Sets such as life orb clearly suffer from survivability, while Evio struggles to hit hard. Spritzee, Porygon, and more are also very viable defensive checks that don't have to put up with the threats of metas past.

I'll post calc when i get home, but it ought to suffice saying that Yanma does have plenty of checks and counters that might not have been common before.

Ik Hypnoturn is a pain to deal with, but those sorts of sets are easy enough to handle since yanma has so many other mons to put up with. Even Goth can trap the little bugger and OHKO Evio Naive sets with hp rock. It'd definitely be an S rank mon, but i think it isn't necessarily broken today.

 

[Berks]

This might seem a bit far fetched, but I really think we should discuss Knock Off. Keep in mind that atm I am slightly inclined to ban, so I'll list reasons to and reasons not to, and please, please be sure to add pros and cons I might miss:

Reasons to ban

• Knock Off is an incredibly versatile move, finding its way onto offensive mons such as Pawn and basically any Fighting-type as STAB or coverage and also onto such defensive mons as Ferro and Lickitung (not that good atm but whatevs).
• The widespread presence of Knock Off's Dark coverage severely hurts the viablity of several mons, mainly most Psychic types not named Abra and any non-offensive Ghost types. One large reason for Trubbish's drop (not the only one, mind you) was the introduction of Pancham's Mold Breaker Knock Off.
  
• In many situations, it may be smarter to go for a Knock Off on an obvious switch in than to go for an appropriate switch. For example (and this may be a bad play, blame me) I run ScarfPawn and Fletchling on a Ziggy team. Pawniard makes its way in against something it can beat (Spritzee or somethin) and the other player has a clear switch to their Fighting type, generally Foo. Rather than switch to Fletchling, I would Knock Off the incoming Foo, possibly even sack Pawn if I could, and then bring in Fletch, either killing Foo, getting a SD, or U-turning for momentum. In this case, hitting Foo with a not effective coverage move is, perhaps, the better play.
• This one isn't such a concrete point, but the fact that so much of LC revolves around Fighting types may be because of the super good coverage that Fighting/Dark has. Banning Knock Off could lead to a dip in Fighting usage (not by much because fighting is still good in this meta) and a rise in Psychic/Ghost types like Slowbro, Solosis, or even Pumpkaboo, who already sees solid usage.

Reasons to not ban

• Knock Off is only a 97.5 BP move on the first hit, and becomes a mere 65 BP move after. This leads such things as ScarfPawn to have somewhat underwhelming power attacking a mon that's already been Knocked Off.
• It isn't too hard to fit a Knock Off absorber like Fletch, Fighting types, Fairies, Sticky Holders, etc etc etc onto a team. These mons often synergize well and are very effective members of a team, so you'll probably already have one on your team anyways.
• In reality, predicting a Knock Off isn't too hard. Sometimes it's even blatantly obvious.
• Removing Knock Off would remove valuable coverage for several very good mons, such as most Fighting types, Vullaby, and especially Pawniard.

That's all I can think of at the moment, and as you can tell, I am somewhat biased for a ban, but I fell like some discussion on perhaps the most common move in LC would be good. As such, I feel if we were to suspect Knock Off, we should probably answer a few questions:

• Does the presence of Knock Off harm the meta more than banning it would? If so, we would ban.
• Does the distribution of Knock Off contribute too much to the prevalence of such powerful mons as Foo and Pawn, or are other traits more significant? If Knock Off isn't a significant factor in the power of those mons, we would not ban
• LC mons are, on average, more dependent on items than their upper tier counterparts, especially to add bulk. Would that reliance on items lead to a power shift if Knock Off were to be banned? If so, we would not ban.

Also, if we were to suspect Knock Off, I feel it would be a good idea to not allow Knock Off on the ladder. This is not generally a good idea when we suspect mons, but I feel that this suspect would be fairly unique, and would be more beneficial without the suspected move if it happened at all. I'm not adamant on this point though, and the suspect may not happen, but I feel some discussion would be a good idea.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I didn't quite get through Rowan's post, so I'll add some of his discussion points after I finish my chemistry. My bad...

 

[Corporal Levi]

Hi, sorry that my phenomenal knack for poetry stirred up so much drama. I would like to make it clear that I do believe that Bellsprout possesses some characteristics that can arguably be considered broken, and that many previously banned Pokemon were banned for these traits (although these traits were, of course, drastically augmented or they had other broken traits, which is why they're currently banned and Bellsprout is not). I'm not sure if they're enough to warrant a ban (and, given the general opinion, they're probably not), but at the very least I believe that they're more prominent than Mienfoo's supposedly broken traits. I do not consider its placement in the viability rankings a valid argument because the rankings place very heavy emphasis on support required for a Pokemon to do its job, which Bellsprout requires for its more broken qualities to emerge. This isn't comparable to other wincons such as Omanyte or Zigzagoon, because supporting these wincons requires specific Pokemon to be eliminated, which is very different from Bellsprout, who merely requires Sun support, something that is entirely within the Bellsprout user's control against teams that lack Hippopotas. If a ban to weaken Bellsprout were to go through though, I do not think a Vulpix or Drought ban would be ideal, as Bellsprout is the Pokemon that is problematic, not Vulpix or Sun sweepers as a whole, ie the reason why Excadrill was banned in gen 5 and not Sand Stream or Tyranitar + the hippo line; Vulpix alone is simply a typical wall-breaker, meaning it's difficult to outright counter but fairly manageable if you rely on checks.

Regarding the Sashbra nomination, I can understand where it's coming from, but I don't really agree. The role of a generalized safety net isn't purely limited to Abra, given the existence of Endure Magnemite, Porygon, and Fletchling, as well as a few less notable examples; it isn't fair to list off the sweepers that are able to get around these and then ignore the Pokemon that are able to naturally get around Abra. Furthermore, saying that Abra cannot be worn down isn't true; it's simply that Abra will lose its ability to check a threat if it switches in. This should in no way be considered a positive for Abra or contribute to its supposed brokenness, because it means that the Abra user is essentially forced to play a 5v6 if Abra is used as a team's sole check to important sweepers. The Timburr vs Abra + Timburr situation doesn't really say much because Abra isn't the only Pokemon that could force the same situation; Abra doesn't actually remove the risk vs reward factor unless you're willing to play at a severe disadvantage beforehand, which requires you to outplay your opponent anyway, and even then, it is only able to do so once.

 

[Shrug]

Regarding the Sashbra nomination, I can understand where it's coming from, but I don't really agree. The role of a generalized safety net isn't purely limited to Abra, given the existence of Endure Magnemite, Porygon, and Fletchling, as well as a few less notable examples; it isn't fair to list off the sweepers that are able to get around these and then ignore the Pokemon that are able to naturally get around Abra. Furthermore, saying that Abra cannot be worn down isn't true; it's simply that Abra will lose its ability to check a threat if it switches in. This should in no way be considered a positive for Abra or contribute to its supposed brokenness, because it means that the Abra user is essentially forced to play a 5v6 if Abra is used as a team's sole check to important sweepers. The Timburr vs Abra + Timburr situation doesn't really say much because Abra isn't the only Pokemon that could force the same situation; Abra doesn't actually remove the risk vs reward factor unless you're willing to play at a severe disadvantage beforehand, which requires you to outplay your opponent anyway, and even then, it is only able to do so once.

You make good points here, i do disagree with some things though. There do exist other general safety nets, but they can be eliminated through ways i'd argue are more skillful than the way one takes out Abra: hazard stacking or overload teambuilding beats Pory; having fast prio or bulk beats Fletch; endure mag is something i hate but tend to be more manageable due to prediction mindgames w/r/t endure plus low speed. Abra, by contrast, is beaten normally by much less than Fletch is; strong prio on sweepers is much more common than multi-hit moves. I agree that my assertion "Abra cannot be worn down" is false, but its high speed means in order to notch that one hit to bring it to the Sash, you're going to need to be boosting your own speed, something that happens (usually) once per game at most if the opponent is adequate at applying offensive pressure. It should be said that Abra is only infrequently a team's one check to something - it's usually the background check behind myriad other mons that prevent sweeps. However, the fact that it's such an easy catch-all (catch-most sounds retarded) means teams instantly have skill-free second stop to a high preponderance of the pokemon in the metagame. This breadth is also what supports my second point vis a vis the removal of risk / reward. I agree that other mons can fill Abra's role in that specific Timburr v Timburr (+Abra) situation, but can those same replacement Abras fit as nicely into a Omanyte vs Omanyte situation? How about Fletch vs. Fletch? Abra is the only mon i can think of that fills the role of risk reliever for nearly all setup mons. If someone has timburrr vs. timburr with a spritzee waiting in the wings, she is smart to get in a bulk up war, as she know she wont insta-lose upon her timburr dying. But that seems more an accurate read of a specific battle situation - Abra is a mon who is used to consciously create such situations for multiple mons on a team, leading to games sort of feeling like flipping coins like i said earlier. The need to save Abra can create a slight disadvantage I agree, but the combined facts that 1) the omnipresence of volt-turns means Abra can get in and create offensive pressure with high speed and SpA against things that dont outspeed / pack prio / live (which is ususally multiple mons on a team), meaning it isnt 5 v 6 2) You dont need to particularly outplay your opponent particularly hard to get Timburr matching Timburr or a similar situation 3) moving to a 50% win vs dont lose situation is such a valuable position that going 5 on 6 (in the absolute worst case scenario) is often worth it.

All this being said, Abra doesn't meet the traditional banning criteria. It isn't broken; I didn't claim it to be. It doesn't supremely restrict teambuilding, although the fact that it bones most setup sweepers may contribute in some sense to the abundance of "safe" bulkTurn rather than HO, which is maybe why the meta feels a touch stale. This, of course, doesn't mean banworthy - contributing to staleness (which would be impossible to prove anyway) or reducing fun are both nonstarters in a suspect discussion. However, I do feel we'd have a better meta without Abra, which is why i brought it up in the meta discussion thread; if we ever transition to booting things because they make the meta worse without improving it at all (checking oma isn't super hard even without Abra people, apply pressure / bring prio / dont kill indiscriminately w/ Fletch) then i'd like to see Abra go, though i know it wont happen.

Just to speak on a relevant suspect topic dont ban mienfoo

 

[Merritt]

The question is 'does the support mienfoo provides towards the early-mid game provide a team using mienfoo a significant advantage against a team not using mienfoo?'

This is the most interesting point towards a Mienfoo suspect, that Mienfoo is an overcentralizing support mon, rather than offensive or defensive. This question should certainly weigh heavily on deciding that issue, but let's break it down into its components.

Part 1, Does the support Mienfoo provides early-mid game provide the Mienfoo team an advantage? The obvious answer to this question is yes, of course. Knock off support and chip damage become very useful later for enabling sweeps or preventing counters. Mienfoo even has enough power to prevent it from being set up bait, like many traditional supporters. Using Mienfoo for support in early game gives an appreciable advantage as the game progresses.

The second part of the question is where it gets more interesting. Is using Mienfoo for this role so optimal that using something else instead of Mienfoo immediately gives a disadvantage against a Mienfoo using team? I believe the answer to this is no, and that comes in two parts. First, the individual roles of Mienfoo are not unique. Knock off is no signature move, and other mons do it arguably better, through STAB, better ability, or the ability to get past Knock Off absorbers. Chip damage isn't hard to come by either. U-turn or volt switch can also be done by things like Larvesta, who also provide an appreciable support role through burns instead of knock off. What makes Mienfoo special is its ability (literally) to come in multiple times to perform this role with little consequence.

There are others with more utility than Mienfoo in terms of support for late game, but usually those are near irrelevant as the match approaches its end. Mienfoo often can (and does) stick around and even gains a few kills before the end. Mienfoo has offensive power to go with its bulk and utility. Does this mean, however, that using it is more than just a good idea, but nearly required for success?

Not at all. Mienfoo can certainly contribute to the outcome, but ultimately it isn't the one carrying the team to victory. An all around solid team lacking Mienfoo won't usually lose to a subpar one with a Mienfoo added for utility. It's not just slappable on your team in order to instantly increase your chances of winning, but requires at least some teambuilding around it. It provides support and offensive utility, yes, but in turn requires its own support.

Nothing quite does what Mienfoo does, which is a given, but it is its combination of multiple roles that make it so viable. The only thing it does better than anything else arguably is U-turn, due to Regenerator. It is a conglomeration of multiple useful roles, which it doesn't necessarily do better than any other option, that make it so visible and such a good choice.

Sorry if I butchered your question Rowan ;~;

 

[fatty]

I'm all about the use of sarcasm, but when you guys resort to making entire shit posts with no immediate inclination that they are indeed sarcasm then that just creates unneeded drama and takes away from what this is supposed to be attempting to accomplish. I mean if this is what you were looking for, then haha yeah you fucking got me.

 

[infamy]

this is a troll right

e: so i dont get infracted, youre wrong about almost everything here. abra is splashable as fuck and basically no teams carry multiple setup sweepers or shellder lol. its a great gluemon i dont understand what youre saying lmao

 

[Tymano]

Just to change the discussion away from the "suspect test" Amaura is getting Snow Warning in a week, so the question is how will it affect the metagame, if it does at all.

 

[fitzy72]

It probably won't. Snow warning is only very slightly stronger than Hyper voice and trades that + hail chip damage for ability to go through subs.

Scarf Amaura is going to be a nice new check for Sun and Sand(lol) teams and not much more than it already is.

 

[Merritt]

It means Snover's going to be used even less than it already is. ;-;

It does at least mean Amarua can run a set that beats SturdyJuice because of hail chip damage, but in general it's probably not going to be the most useful option.

And it checks Bellsprout.

 

[Iron Caliber]

Even if it loses Refrigerate STAB Hyper Voice, Auto-hit Blizzard still technically hits harder, so that's not an issue. Not to mention it already has good coverage with Earth Power and Thunderbolt. It'll be interesting to see what Amaura does, actually. It's already a decent Scarfer, and the ability to negate sun (which is apparently an issue) is actually going to be a big bonus.