Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

Considering you have poison jab, have you thought of running a physical set with liquidation and lunge over the special set? I think the higher base atk stat might help out a bit and waterium z can still be used on liquidation. Also, maybe running it in a webs team might be able to cover up its slow speed
 
I'm not sure if you are agreeing with the suggestion, but I mentioned multiple times that I ran that Dewpider on a web team lol. Also I was previously running both Liquidation and Surf on the set for the mixed coverage on physical and special walls, but I just never found myself ever wanting to use Z-Liquid over Z-Surf, so I just removed it.
 
Time to attempt to pull a Nineage and/or Corporal Levi and go over what I've seen of the metagame currently and the different playstyles.

The Meta from Esteemed Bad at Tournaments User and MDL fanboy Plasmagby

Spikes Stack.

Hazard Stack is super scary right now.

Offense. General build is stacker+Gastly/small Z-Pump for blocker+super offensive pressure. Some good scarfer like Mienfoo or Doduo that just 2hkoes everything with hazards up. Then sweepers. Mons like Shellder, Croagunk, and Scraggy thrive under this playstyle, spikes chipping their limited checks incredibly well.

Balance. You've seen the build. Players like Heysup have well known teams dedicated to it. Pump-Large as blocker because it is just the best blocker overall. Juice Frillish is a nice blocker as well if you don't want to go double water in Omanyte+Frillish. A strategies like NP vull or double fighting are very common on these cores along with similar mons to offense. More balanced mons like bulky Staryu, Mudbray are ridiculous with Spikes up. Another solid option is Groundium Diglett to trap Staryu and trap and KO it at 71% for standard 116 defense 19 speed spread.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lc-player-of-the-week-1-heysup.3594873/
Link to Heysup's interview where he discusses Spikes Stack and gives his team that almost everyone has seen up to this point.

Type Spam
Type Spam is another incredibly important and popular metagame trend currently. Specifically Fighting Spam and Flying Spam are the most used and threatening currently. Other spams like Dark spam and Water spam are still solid, but just a shell of their former selves at this point.

Fighting Spam

Here are the four main fighting type threats in the metagame themselves. I already typed quite a bit about this before, so to summarize; Fighting Spam has the most potential of the Type Spams due to these pokemon all having incredibly solid coverage and being able to either wear down their counters or bait them in and just KO them allowing the other mon to clean up. It is very hard to stop due to most teams having 1 counter and 1 check at absolute best (this being the bulkier Spritzee+Doduo/Vullaby teams). Unfortunately for example croagunk just destroys these builds (being balance/bulky offense, Scarf Mienfoo as well as scraggy just destroy offense bar scarf Doduo which fight spam teams ALWAYS run a mon for these whether it is Kabuto or Onix or Chinchou. Timburr is special because it just destroys all playstyles with the correct coverage and team mates. All of these mons can also run Z-Crystals incredibly well and KO their checks or bait in their counters and KO them.

Bird Spam



Similar to Fighting Spam. Less options but just as effective. Scarf Doduo is nuts, as well as a set I will credit my man 067jox Jox with being Sub Juice Doduo which I've found to be super solid. People such as Shrug and OP have also been editing Vullaby sets to run HP grass to KO Bird Spam counters being Onix and Kabuto. NP Vull is of course an incredible pokemon and a major threat in this metagame being one of if not the best sweeper in the game. Other sets such as mixed that I've been digging as of late and again S/os to Shrug again for this. Overall flying spam is the second best type spam in my eyes, however it is incredible nonetheless, hence why I'm discussing it of course.
Mixed Weak Armor Vullaby
Vullaby (F) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Weak Armor
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 80 Atk / 160 SpA / 76 SpD / 116 Spe
Hardy Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Grass]


Standard Balances
(This could actually just be an ok team lol)

You know what this is. Staryu+Onix+Vullaby core is infamous as of late. Stick a Grass mon on there, A fighting mon, and a filler mon of whatever your team needs. It's just really good overall right now, all of Staryu, Vullaby, and Onix being incredible right now and forming an incredible core. Mons like ferroseed, foongus are common for stopping their Spritzee/Snubbull issue (granted it runs fire punch, but scout with Staryu/Onix and punish). Fighting mons like Timburr, Croagunk, and Mienfoo are also common because they're ridiculously good. Other final mons are generally Abra, Gastly, Ponyta, Grimer-Alola, Diglett, and Pawniard assuming they aren't on the first build. You can find one of these teams all over the place from replays to rmts to team dumps to literally just making one in 5 minutes.

Bait to Counter Spam

Had no clue what to call this but the idea is running two mons with the same counter and one being a bait set to eliminate that counter. Same idea as type spams but different mons. For example Nineage Made an incredible post here in the Cores thread on Gastly+Snivy (Both having Grimer-Alola as a counter to it, and both running bait sets to KO grimer so the other one can clean in theory. I had a team with Grassium Pony+Bird Spam but it was bad cause I was bad at building and the team is long gone now, but it's a similar idea.
Nineage's post http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-lc-good-cores-thread.3587466/page-3#post-7340505 (Edit: Scroll up mb)

The Anti-Meta teams

Again had no clue what to call this. The anti-meta sets/pokemon on a team. Psychium Staryu, Snubbull countering fighting and bird spam, mons like Z-Pony that just 6-0 Common balance squads right now, these are the innovative teams, you look at these teams and either they look standard and have weird rad sets or you look at them as more of a wtf and then you either blow them back or they blow you back. Kingler12345's spl team with wingull+archen immediately comes to mind as well as OP's recent rmt squad.

Webs

We all know these teams VERY well. Everyone has finally figured out that LO Abra with webs is just busted. It's answers include. Alolan Grimer (which is 2hkoed regardless, Stunky, which is a worse Alolan Grimer with defog, and Scarf pursuit Doduo. Assuming rocks are up, Vullaby is an ok answer but it can not have been knocked and/or taken any chip damage as gleam does a min damage of 64% to 21 SpDef Vullaby. Everything else in the meta basically dies. This also doesn't mention the fact that Webs have 4 more pokemon besides Surskit and Abra that can be used to wear abra's counters down. General team is something like, Pawniard Pumpkaboo-Super/Frillish as your hazard removal counters. Pawniard can also be Kabuto/Onix right now for a better bird answer and the fact that defog is non-existent in the meta right now. Then scarf surskit for webs, LO Abra for destroying everything, and mons like NP Vull, Cranidos, Mienfoo, Croagunk, and Wynaut as utility/breaker mons for Abra. This isn't even talking about Crani who also 6-0es teams once webs and rocks are up. With a simple 4 attacks moveset, there are no switch ins bar Bray and Onix assuming no EQ for Onix. Grasses die to fire punch, Fightings die to Zen, Everything else dies to Rock Slide. Other incredible underrated mons that I have played around with under webs include, but of course not limited to, Snover, Bunnelby, Cubone, and SD Phish.

Veil

We all know the hellbound monster Serene's Grace released to LC with her Aurora Lights team, with incredible results and a LOT of potential as a new and innovative offense approach. Put a bunch of sweepers behind a veil, and start setting up and breaking shit. Other veil teams have of course been built that are solid such as Rowan's in his team dump along with 067jox's Sinister Woods rmt starring SD pancham. There is fun potential behind this for other mons and this is a playstyle not often seen in high level, but I feel once someone gets it right, it will be all over the place. It's a solid playstyle nonetheless though and of course I had to mention it.


That's about it given this LONG post and how I see the meta right now given I have become a much better player and analysist/writer I feel than I was if you look at my writings a month ago. Granted there are probably playstyles I am forgetting but thispost is already long enough. Trying to revive yet ANOTHER thread and help new LC players while the pros are out in LCPL letting their hearts out for some SUPER fun to watch and funny/RIDICULOUS battles (You all know of tcr's wizardry). Hope the meta continues to evolve and we get some new solid players.
 
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Sken

her eyes were blue
is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributor
Hey, so this thread has been kind of dead lately and I felt like giving it a shake. Here are some things that I feel are overrated or underrated in the current state of the metagame. Keep in mind these are just my thoughts so I don't have to say "in my opinion" each sentence. Thanks to Corporal Levi for helping me make this look better.


Counter Abra


Abra is really good right now. But it's not because of the introduction of counter, it's always been like that. I'm not going to talk about the life orb set because we all already know what it does and how good it is. My issue is with counter. Yes, it can ohko Grimer-A back but that's all it does for Abra. Every pokemon in LC has its checks, and most high tier Pokemon will have some slightly suboptimal means to get around them. Pokemon is a long-term thinking game and very often the utility that a mon offers to the team is really important and underrated. People focus more on winning a specific 1v1 vs one counter giving up on other things that are not worth sacrificing. One of the biggest traits sash abra has is the ability to take any 1 hit and hit hard back. It's a threatening, fast mon that can fire off strong attacks and that's the whole point of using Abra. Counter makes Abra unable to hit many things so they can switch in for free whenever they want and bring it down to sash. Scarf Pawniard can come in for free any time it wants to, pursuit, die to counter and now Abra dies to Diglett or literally any priority move, as opposed to an HP Fighting set, where the Pawniard user it has to either revenge kill or predict well to come in. This case is even worse when the Pawniard isn't even scarf, but it's eviolite sr and can get rocks up for free as you counter nothing, and then fire off a Knock Off to anything switching in or to bring you down to 1% and get you in range of anything. And all these efforts are useless if you try to Counter a Grimer-A as it uses fire blast. And this comes into a dumb endless loop as sometimes you're even able to switch out your non-counter Abra as they fire blast. I'm not saying counter Abra is useless by any means, just not in every team unlike what many people think. Abra, with counter, is good lure for Grimer-A, and if you have a Gastly or a Snivy on your team they can become huge threats for teams that relied on Grimer-A to take on these. Other than that, I can't find another reason why you should use it more than you use destiny bond on Gastly or z-wring out on Snivy.


Weak Armor Onix


This case is exactly the same as above. Long term utility vs winning specific scenarios. Having the ability to live any one hit and recovering back up is the literal definition of versatility. A Weak Armor set almost always has to run explosion to be effective, although it can also run heavy slam and taunt, but less effectively, while sturdy can run plenty of options depending on whatever your team needs: endure, dragon tail, explosion, roar, taunt, heavy slam, toxic... all of these almost equally effectively. Yes, Weak Armor is good to 1v1 more comfortably things like Grimer-Alola (which sturdy still beats, just not as well as Weak Armor), physical Vullaby and Doduo, I'd always use that variant in teams that are super weak to these, and it's better than Sturdy in webs teams, but that's all. Onix helps a lot against almost any special threat or physical without knock off, can come in mindlessly without prediction, threaten with its two stabs and set rocks up. It helps vs threats like scarf mag, elekid, abra, gastly, any solar beam variant of ponyta, houndour, np croagunk, skrelp, torchic, scarf or 17 speed chinchou (as long as it doesn't scald burn), shell smashers not called Shellder (although it can live a +2 icicle spear from full and roar it out), np vullaby, it ties with sash surskit... I think the list is long enough already to get it. But apparently all of this worth sacrificing in exchange of a bit taking less damage from a few knock off mons and getting a speed boost that is many times useless because 17 speed Onix already outspeeds a decent enough portion of the metagame. The huge argument for WA supporters is most of the times that Sturdy can be broken with hazards, but there are a lot of ways to avoid this, mostly since Staryu is one of the greatest teammates Onix can have. In case that your team doesn't have a way to remove hazards there is no reason not to run Endure, and if none of these got to work, Onix can also pivot between not super effective moves with a litte bit of prediction to get back up to full HP.


Offensive Water-types


Offensive water-types are immensely underrated right now. It's not uncommon to see teams being underprepared for these without even a resist against water. You'll often find these fightspam teams with a WA Onix and no water resist, or even a team with Staryu as the water resist with scald and ice beam as the only offensive moves. I think with really great mons like Foongus, Ferroseed, Croagunk or Chinchou, it's not that difficult to fit at least one water resist in a team. While Carvanha isn't great in this meta due to the amount of fighting priorities a lot of teams have and the amount of checks it has that other water-types don't (almost anything that can live an attack and hit it back hard enough), there are a lot like Corphish or scarf Chinchou that are really underprepared for, with corphish SDing up and going through many offensive teams with an incredibly strong aqua jet or crabhammering its way to victory against bulkier teams, and scarf Chinchou hitting super effectively almost any electric inmunity but itself, although its usage requires some prediction in the moment to decide the move you want to get locked into. These teams are usually built around these type of cores, so they tend to be extremely strong against teams with a mediocre water response. Life orb Staryu is good but easier to check with diglett or pursuit pawniard on top of other water checks, but evio is just as good as always and some teams still lack a reliable scald switch in and analytic hydro pump hits really hard even without life orb. Special mention goes to Wingull for being super anti meta as nothing really takes water + flying stabs other than chinchou. I don't include Shellder here because, although it's a water-type, it doesn't share counters with other water-types, as its main attacking moves are icicle spear and rock blast, and it's already stablished as a top tier mon that people actually prepare for.

tl;dr start using water resists :pirate:


Electric inmunities


Electric-types are not metagame-defining like fighting- or dark-types, but they aren't bad either. Pokemon like Elekid, Chinchou or Magnemite are good mons that can fire off really strong volt switches. Defensive electric resists like Pumpkaboo-Super, Foongus or Ferroseed are fine at taking that damage, but they still don't deny the momentum and will still give the other team an almost unwinnable matchup. Instead, if the other team has a ground-type or a Chinchou, even if it's a Diglett or something that can't really switch into a non electric move, it will make the electric-type at least think twice before clicking a move. Even Weak Armor Onix is useful to block volt switches from scarf mons, although it won't be able to take a stab hit from Chinchou or Magnemite or an HP Grass from Elekid. Elekid, Magnemite or Chinchou aren't in every team, but there's no reason not to fit an electric inmunity to avoid such a huge matchup disadvantage against teams with these mons right from the team preview, and it becomes pretty much mandatory. It's not that hard to fit a Chinchou, Onix, Mudbray, Diglett, Drilbur or even some more innovative mons like Trapinch, Sandile or Sandshrew.


Mudbray


Mudbray is a decent pokemon with immense physical attack and great overall bulk. Its ability, Stamina, makes it able to beat a lot of things in a 1v1 situation (almost any physical attacker and some others like electric types that aren't Chinchou). And this is the same issue that's appeared a lot in this post so far: it's a pokemon that is good at facing things in a 1v1 scenario but is bad at anything else as it doesn't support the team in any way or it doesn't offer any long term value to the team. It's really hard to justify using Mudbray in the teambuilding process as it offers to the team less than what an Onix or a Drilbur would, and doing almost the same. The resttalk set has to handle with too much pressure to be able to recover health and attack effectively. The berry juice set is pretty slow and usually a bit underwhelming as it loses bulk too. And it's hard to justify using scarf Mudbray over scarf Drilbur since pjab is a great coverage move for ground types, Drilbur still hits almost as hard while being able to tank basically the same moves as Mudbray but being notably faster, it can offer utility with rapid spin and Moldbreaker is much better for a scarf ground type breaking through Levitate and Sturdy than Stamina. Some arguments are that Mudbray can actually 2hko defensive Staryu, but if you really need that ko you can make your Drilbur adamant and you'll still have a faster scarfer with more utility and almost the same fire power. Mudbray's 4th moveslot is also really useless, as Close Combat only really hits Scraggy (which you speed tie with at +1 and you don't even ohko) and Ferroseed harder, and it really doesn't have many other options. I think Mudbray still has the new mon syndrome (people just use it because it's new), but it's actually a mediocre pokemon.


Z-Moves


This topic isn't a very widespread thought, so I won't take very long to address this one, but I've seen some people say you need a Z move on every team and this is absolutely wrong. Items in LC are a huge deal, much more than in any other tier, as in no other tier all the pokemon can benefit from Eviolite or can restore their HP from 1% back to full like Berry Juice does in LC. Due to level 5 mechanics the life orb recoil is generally quite smaller and the damage input is higher, and the speed tiers compression makes choice scarf a much better item. With this, you really need to justify the usage of an item that doesn't do anything mentioned before. They're useful to lure in a specific mon, for general good coverage or even to set up, but they are far from being mandatory.

Thanks for reading and feel free to reply about any of these!
 
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I'd like to ask, how is Anorith fairing in the current LC metagame? I get that the utility set is popular, but is the Swords Dance set particularly outclassed or is it worth using due to the niche of rock STAB being so nice in the current meta?
 

Elec.

please read the description
is a Pre-Contributor
I'd like to ask, how is Anorith fairing in the current LC metagame? I get that the utility set is popular, but is the Swords Dance set particularly outclassed or is it worth using due to the niche of rock STAB being so nice in the current meta?
Anorith is quite a niche pick. Its best set is utility, yes, however Kabuto does the same thing but better, with far better bulk, typing and access to Weak Armor to outspeed most of the tier when hit, particularly to counter birds like Doduo and Rufflet. The only thing Anorith has over Kabuto is the ability to set rocks up really quickly cause of its 18 Speed, and access to Rock Blast. The Swords Dance set just gets walled by too many common threats such as Timburr, Onix, and Mienfoo so it just isn't worth running.
 
Anorith is quite a niche pick. Its best set is utility, yes, however Kabuto does the same thing but better, with far better bulk, typing and access to Weak Armor to outspeed most of the tier when hit, particularly to counter birds like Doduo and Rufflet. The only thing Anorith has over Kabuto is the ability to set rocks up really quickly cause of its 18 Speed, and access to Rock Blast. The Swords Dance set just gets walled by too many common threats such as Timburr, Onix, and Mienfoo so it just isn't worth running.
Ahh, I keep forgetting that Weak Armor got a huge buff this generation. No wonder, are there any other sets that Anorith could possibly run that aren't the typical stealth rock utility based? I don't want to run two hazard setters on my team, but I really feel an offensive leaning Anorith would provide great synergy with my team (plus I love Anorith).
 

Gummy

send typecharts
is a Pre-Contributor
Ahh, I keep forgetting that Weak Armor got a huge buff this generation. No wonder, are there any other sets that Anorith could possibly run that aren't the typical stealth rock utility based? I don't want to run two hazard setters on my team, but I really feel an offensive leaning Anorith would provide great synergy with my team (plus I love Anorith).
If you're really dead set on using Anorith, but not its utility set, your only options are its Swords Dance set or a Swift Swim set, and both are pretty suboptimal. You could always drop your team in the PS! chatroom or in Discord (I recommend the latter since it's way more active) and have people give suggestions.
 

Drew

formerly LitsYaBoi1337
is a Contributor to Smogon
Ahh, I keep forgetting that Weak Armor got a huge buff this generation. No wonder, are there any other sets that Anorith could possibly run that aren't the typical stealth rock utility based? I don't want to run two hazard setters on my team, but I really feel an offensive leaning Anorith would provide great synergy with my team (plus I love Anorith).
Amirite is outclassed completely as a Stealth Rock setter and as a Rapid Spin user, and it's Swords Dance set is just plain bad. If you want a good physical sweeper, I'd recommend Corphish, Tirtouga, Shellder, Timburr, Doduo, or even Z-Mirror Move Vullaby. Offensive synergy and defensive synergy are different. I'd recommend doing what Gummy said and dropping your team in the chat.
 
If you're really dead set on using Anorith, but not its utility set, your only options are its Swords Dance set or a Swift Swim set, and both are pretty suboptimal. You could always drop your team in the PS! chatroom or in Discord (I recommend the latter since it's way more active) and have people give suggestions.
Amirite is outclassed completely as a Stealth Rock setter and as a Rapid Spin user, and it's Swords Dance set is just plain bad. If you want a good physical sweeper, I'd recommend Corphish, Tirtouga, Shellder, Timburr, Doduo, or even Z-Mirror Move Vullaby. Offensive synergy and defensive synergy are different. I'd recommend doing what Gummy said and dropping your team in the chat.
I'll probably hop on the Discord when I'm off work (the forums are basically the only thing I can use here at my work).
On an unrelated note, has anyone been noticing a rise in Gastly usage lately? Not even an offensive set either, has something been dropped to justify such a rise in usage? Also, was the Misdreavous re-test mentioned earlier in this thread ever carried out?
 
a treatise on zigzagoon, or the tiny raccoon saga
by infamy

preface, or prologue, or prelude, or a treatise on capital letters
in this post i discuss zigzagoon. i will not use capital letters because i do not think there are any letters that are more important than others. i am an egalitarian. if you use capital letters you are probably a fascist. also this post will be in a big font because i do not like reading on computer screens because the lines are so long. hopefully this big font will make it easier and more pleasant to read.

i. introduction

zigzagoon is the tiny raccoon pokemon. somehow literally every zigzagoon is the exact same weight and the exact same size. it is speculated that this is because they are clones of a single original tiny raccoon pokemon. however this does not make sense because they have different personality traits: some are angry, some are shy, some don't give a single heck. this cannot be explained by the random variance in nature because if that were the case there would be different sized zigzagoon because some would get lucky like starmaster and find a lot of food to eat and be big and fat and others would not be lucky and probably starve to death like little african children.

ii. what zigzagoon does

zigzagoon likes to do many things. some zigzagoon will chase pokemon professors. others will click belly drum and extreme speed. these zigzagoon can also click thief or protect or seed bomb but they don't do that often because they don't need to.

iii. zigzagoon in the current little cup metagame

you may think, "zigzagoon is not good in the current little cup metagame because there are so many fighting-type pokemon and also because there is gastly." however if you think that you should probably not read any more of this treatise because you are a hater-ass and most people whom you meet will resent your pretentiousness. and also you are wrong because zigzagoon is good in the current little cup metagame.

here is a cool little list i put together of pokemon zigzagoon cannot ohko +6 or which it can but which can ko it before it can ko them. green items are pokemon which can survive a +6 attack from zigzagoon and probably ko back. blue items can probably survive a +6 attack but probably cannot ko back. red items cannot survive a +6 attack but can ko zigzagoon without taking a +6 attack. bold items have a better than 50% chance of being ohkoed by a +6 attack after stealth rock but otherwise probably survive a +6 attack. orange items are not ohkoed by extreme speed but probably cannot ohko zigzagoon back and are probably ohkoed by a coverage move. all calculations use the analysis zigzagoon spread. this list only covers s through a- ranks of the viability rankings because i like to think i have better things to do with my life than run calculations for the whole metagame.

abra (focus sash)
timburr
mienfoo (23 hp 14 defense)

vullaby (defensive)*
croagunk (defensive)
alolan grimer
onix (sturdy)
onix (weak armor)

shellder
foongus

gastly
magnemite (berry juice)
magnemite (choice scarf)

mudbray (resttalk)
pawniard (eviolite)
pawniard (choice scarf)
pawniard (life orb)

dwebble (sturdy)
dwebble (weak armor)
ferroseed

rufflet (bulk up)
scraggy (dragon dance)

spritzee
*exactly 50% chance of being ohkoed by +6 extreme speed after stealth rock.

iv. supporting zigzagoon

looking at the above list you can see a few things that clearly support zigzagoon well:

1. stealth rock - stealth rock helps zigzagoon earn many ohkos.
2. pursuit - pursuit users like alolan grimer can eliminate gastly and break abra's focus sash.
3. other trapping - ability trappers like diglett and trapinch can eliminate many pokemon which could otherwise impede zigzagoon's sweep.

zigzagoon is a pretty frail pokemon.

4. memento - memento users like diglett, alolan grimer, and cottonee can provide zigzagoon with set up opportunities.

v. zigzagoon's best friends

diglett has memento and can trap threats to zigzagoon. it can also set stealth rock.
alolan grimer has memento and can trap abra and gastly.
timburr shares many checks with zigzagoon and can get chip damage on them, opening up opportunities for zigzagoon to sweep.
onix is the best stealth rock setter in little cup right now and zigzagoon likes stealth rock.

many other pokemon can also help zigzagoon.

postface, or epilogue, or postlude, or use the tiny raccoon pokemon
i was gonna write a big blurb here but i'm tired and my eyes hurt.

zigzagoon combines cuteness and destruction. use it in your pokemon battles!

appendices

i. revisions

1. the font size has not been lowered despite some people complaining because they hate art. they can go heck themselves. i hate art - fiend

2. added appendices.

3. i hate fiend - infamy.

ii. squadrons

here are some zigzagoon teams i built. they're probably bad because i don't like building for sumo.
 
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Shh... It'll all be over soon, very very soon.


Bidoof @ Normalium-Z / Life Orb / Silk Scarf
Ability: Simple
Level: 5
EVs: 12 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Quick Attack / Return
- Aqua Tail
- Crunch / Return

+4 Attack in one turn. Let that sink in for a moment. At +4, anything it outspeeds it's gonna destroy, anything faster will still get maimed by STAB priority. Slow and powerful Rock types? Suck on that T H I C C tooth, because Aqua Tail gonna slap yo ass. Oh yeah last slot is for extra coverage although realistically you're only probably ever gonna be using Quick Attack / Aqua Tail. Simple is such a damn good ability, and now that Bidoof has Swords Dance under its belt, it can really start going hard.
 


Shh... It'll all be over soon, very very soon.


Bidoof @ Normalium-Z / Life Orb / Silk Scarf
Ability: Simple
Level: 5
EVs: 12 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Quick Attack / Return
- Aqua Tail
- Crunch / Return

+4 Attack in one turn. Let that sink in for a moment. At +4, anything it outspeeds it's gonna destroy, anything faster will still get maimed by STAB priority. Slow and powerful Rock types? Suck on that T H I C C tooth, because Aqua Tail gonna slap yo ass. Oh yeah last slot is for extra coverage although realistically you're only probably ever gonna be using Quick Attack / Aqua Tail. Simple is such a damn good ability, and now that Bidoof has Swords Dance under its belt, it can really start going hard.
 

Serene's Grace

I know you felt it too
is a Tiering Contributor
ziggyiggs.jpg


Shh... It'll all be over soon, very very soon.

Zigzagoon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Pickup
Level: 5
EVs: 132 HP / 196 Atk / 108 Def / 28 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Thief
- Seed Bomb/Return/Protect/Substitute


+6 Attack in one turn. Let that sink in for a moment. At +6, anything it outspeeds it's gonna destroy, anything faster will still get maimed by STAB Extremespeed. Slow and powerful Rock types? Suck on that T H I C C tail, because seed bomb gonna bomb yo ass. Oh yeah last slot is for extra coverage although realistically you're only probably ever gonna be using Extremspeed / Thief. Pickup is such a damn good ability, stealing berry juices and all, but because Zigzagoon has Extremespeed under its belt, its already been going hard.
 
View attachment 85398

Shh... It'll all be over soon, very very soon.

Zigzagoon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Pickup
Level: 5
EVs: 132 HP / 196 Atk / 108 Def / 28 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Thief
- Seed Bomb/Return/Protect/Substitute


+6 Attack in one turn. Let that sink in for a moment. At +6, anything it outspeeds it's gonna destroy, anything faster will still get maimed by STAB Extremespeed. Slow and powerful Rock types? Suck on that T H I C C tail, because seed bomb gonna bomb yo ass. Oh yeah last slot is for extra coverage although realistically you're only probably ever gonna be using Extremspeed / Thief. Pickup is such a damn good ability, stealing berry juices and all, but because Zigzagoon has Extremespeed under its belt, its already been going hard.
Bidoof doesn't have to risk not being able to use its boosting move because of Belly Drum taking down half of your HP, + Bidoof can afford to run another item otherwise, thus giving it a niche over Zigzagoon.
 

Drew

formerly LitsYaBoi1337
is a Contributor to Smogon
Bidoof doesn't have to risk not being able to use its boosting move because of Belly Drum taking down half of your HP, + Bidoof can afford to run another item otherwise, thus giving it a niche over Zigzagoon.


I think this discussion is over, but if you think that this thing is even worth the dirt on my boots, take some calcs will you:
+4 236 Atk Bidoof Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
+4 236 Atk Bidoof Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
156 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Bidoof: 18-22 (81.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+4 236 Atk Bidoof Quick Attack vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
196+ Atk Grimer-Alola Poison Jab vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Bidoof: 16-19 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 236 Atk Bidoof Quick Attack vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Grimer-Alola: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The mere existence of Ferroseed
0 SpA Foongus Sludge Bomb vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Bidoof: 12-15 (54.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 236 Atk Bidoof Quick Attack vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
The superior normal type bops zig and doof.

Meowth @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 40 SpD / 200 Spe
Lonely Nature
IVs: 19 HP / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Fake Out
- Feint
- Double-Edge/Aerial Ace/Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Fighting]/Water Pulse

Revenge killers don't care about setup sweepers boosts.
 
The superior normal type bops zig and doof.

Meowth @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 40 SpD / 200 Spe
Lonely Nature
IVs: 19 HP / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Fake Out
- Feint
- Double-Edge/Aerial Ace/Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Fighting]/Water Pulse

Revenge killers don't care about setup sweepers boosts.
... You did not
Also can we please not get into this...
 
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Gummy

send typecharts
is a Pre-Contributor


Shh... It'll all be over soon, very very soon.

Skitty (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Normalize
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 76 Def / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Thunder Wave
- Sucker Punch


+0 Attack in one turn. Let that sink in for a moment. At +0, anything it outspeeds it's gonna destroy, anything faster will still get maimed by STAB Sucker Punch. Fast and powerful Ground types? Suck on that T H I C C tail, because Normalize Thunder Wave is gonna bomb yo ass. Oh yeah last slot is for extra coverage(?) although realistically you're only probably ever gonna be using Fake Out / Double Edge. Normalize is such a damn good ability, giving you no coverage and all, but because Skitty has Fake Out under its belt, its already been going hard.

--

Anyway, memes aside, I want to discuss a really cool trend in the meta: 18 Speed Scarf mons! Scarf Gastly and Scarf Doduo are both really fun mons that can clean up any unprepared team. Unfortunately they are the only examples of good 18 Spe scarf mons bc all the other ones suck (scarf deerling?? scarf salandit?? eeh), but i still think they're really fun to use on a team, maybe even at the same time. thoughts? do you think it's more worth running another item or another mon entirely?
 
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What sort of fresh hell meme did I start?

The superior normal type bops zig and doof.

Meowth @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 40 SpD / 200 Spe
Lonely Nature
IVs: 19 HP / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Fake Out
- Feint
- Double-Edge/Aerial Ace/Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Fighting]/Water Pulse

Revenge killers don't care about setup sweepers boosts.
Also, does Feint have any actual utility with Technician or am I just being bamboozled?
 

Drew

formerly LitsYaBoi1337
is a Contributor to Smogon
Diglett (why it's worse than everyone says it is)

This post was originally supposed to be an analysis on where Diglett is, but after a bunch of calcs, from what I've seen, I feel Diglett is LARGELY overrated. Let's jump right in with a visual list of what Diglett can and cannot trap:
Green=Diglett kills it always or almost always
Yellow=Diglett kills 1 common set or can only kill if Life Orb

Orange=Diglett can KO a weakened one or can only kill one with a Z-EQ
Red=Either not trapped or way too bulky
Blue=can KO but is very risky

S RANK
S

traps LO but Sash can just kill it
bulky, but can be overcome
bulky, but can be overcome
only LO is trapped
isnt trapped

A RANK
A+

only LO Diglett kills it, although Z-EQ kills it ofc
speed tie or the one with Sash wins
Only killed by Z-EQ
Sturdy can heal with Berry juice and respond with an eq, and weak armor lives 1 not ZEQ hit and responds with eq
my man is way to bulky and can set up on Diglett
too bulky
A
can revenge kill bulky pivot, but is very risky
not trapped
see: Chinchou
too bulky, if Scarf set can KO, and if Berry Juice can absorb a Z-EQ, heal it off, and return with a KO
can be KOed with the right predicts, but keep in mind Eviolite isn't OHKOed
not a fucking chance in hell
I guess it can revenge kill, but only with Z-EQ
A-

both can obliterate each other with the correct predictions
Corphish wins easy
LMAO WHO RUNS SLUDGE BOMB Not a chance in hell
not trapped
basically the same as Onix
ya no
can easily remove bloom doom and z-sunny day, but needs some proper play to beat defensive
not trapped
too bulky
WAY WAY TOO BULKY

Our final tally:
Green=1
Yellow=3
Orange=5
Red=15
Blue=3
Diglett=1

I think our results are clear here folks: over 50% of Pokemon are either not trapped or are incredibly hard for Diglett to deal with. 5 Pokemon only die when weakened or to a Tectonic Rage, and 3 only die to a Life Orb Diglett or a Tectonic Rage. This leaves 1 Pokemon to be fully eliminated by Diglett, and I consider its utility set yellow, while if it sets up a Flame Charge Diglett can't come in at all. This list shows that Diglett's real role is eliminating 1 threat (2 if the opponent has a bunch of Diglett weak Pokemon) then it can recede into the darkness to pick off servery weakened threats or niche extremely Diglett weak mons like Salandit. I open the gates to Diglett discussion, feel free to prove me wrong.
 

zf

take it easy, amigo
is a Tiering Contributor
?_?

i do agree that diglett certainly isn't as good as it was in earlier metagames; the rise of weak armor rocks gimps it quite a bit. however, your analysis is fairly biased against diglett imo. it can reliably trap more mons than you've listed and has amazing utility with memento (huge selling point for offense) or even possibly SR.

some comments on your list, accounting for viable dig sets (example: z-sludge bomb traps snivy but isnt viable)
traps LO but Sash can just kill it beat up traps sash if you really want it gone for whatever reason
bulky, but can be overcome
bulky, but can be overcome
only LO is trapped evio set only needs to be chipped minimally before it's in range of LO / z EQ
isnt trapped

A RANK
A+

only LO Diglett kills it, although Z-EQ kills it ofc lol. z-eq AND LO both kill every set, evio / sash kill evio gunk most of the time after foo u-turn + sr. BJ gunk (the best set) dies to everything.
speed tie or the one with Sash wins
Only killed by Z-EQ LO EQ kills after SR so idk what's going on here
Sturdy can heal with Berry juice and respond with an eq, and weak armor lives 1 not ZEQ hit and responds with eq if sturdy is broken (u-turn bird / sr), BJ onix is trapped. weak armor can't be pivoted on but it sure as hell isnt checking anything after taking 80% from a LO EQ either...
my man is way to bulky and can set up on Diglett LO EQ / z EQ puts shellder in priority range, memento nullifies set up
too bulky can be KOd by LO or z EQ after it's been knocked (hint: it's a knock absorber). esp relevant vs foo teams
A
can revenge kill bulky pivot, but is very risky u-turn birds = best dig partner if you wanna trap this
not trapped LO pursuit was a set in ORAS, still can be used you really wanna trap this mon
see: Chinchou evio dig lives every hit, p reliable scarf mag trapper off u-turns
too bulky, if Scarf set can KO, and if Berry Juice can absorb a Z-EQ, heal it off, and return with a KO
can be KOed with the right predicts, but keep in mind Eviolite isn't OHKOed sub LO is what you run to trap pawn (wins most of the time) or evio if you have a scarf bird for uturn chip+trap
not a fucking chance in hell
I guess it can revenge kill, but only with Z-EQ dies to z EQ after foo u-turn / minor chip...
A-

both can obliterate each other with the correct predictions
Corphish wins easy
LMAO WHO RUNS SLUDGE BOMB Not a chance in hell cotton is ass rn
not trapped
basically the same as Onix
ya no BJ dies to z EQ after minimal chip (ie chou volt switch)
can easily remove bloom doom and z-sunny day, but needs some proper play to beat defensive
not trapped
too bulky
WAY WAY TOO BULKY

calcs vs scarffoo / scarf vullaby checks are most relevant
evio = best scarf vulla partner
z-move = best scarffoo partner
 
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dcae

naughty list
I disagree Drew. Your analysis fails to adequately acknowledge the complexities of Diglett's usage in game. Diglett isn't an entity alone facing the opponent full health vs full health. Diglett is often supported via hazards and Volt Switch/U-turn which deal significant chip damage, which leaves many of the Pokemon you listed as unable to be trapped now easily trapped and killed. Knock Off's ubiquity in the meta also doesn't help the Pokemon you listed, as after a Knock Off, many of those bulkier Pokemon can now be trapped and killed at over 50% health as well. A well-played Diglett can easily rack up 2-3 kills via smart switching and momentum gained via Voltturn moves, which a 1v1 analysis such as yours fails to account for.

Z-Diglett rn takes everything I mentioned to the next level with respect to trapping. Most teams run Diglett to eliminate a specific threat, and Z-Dig can do that better than anything else. Even normally Diglett immune pkmn can be gotten rid of. For example, a common scenario is the following: Mienfoo knocks off Foongus, next time Foo comes in and Foongus is switched in, it U-turns to Z-Dig who traps and kills effortlessly:

(236 Atk Diglett Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Foongus: 21-25 (84 - 100%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

Some hazards dmg + chip U-turn damage and even Spritzee dies to it after Knock Off
(236 Atk Diglett Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Spritzee: 18-22 (66.6 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)

All these examples seem elaborate but in practice happen far too often for Diglett to be dismissed as if it cannot in fact trap almost everything in LC. It requires very little support to do its job fantastically, and is also currently the most reliable revenge killer of abra in the metagame rn (Beat Up) Diglett is still clearly a top tier mon and is every bit as good as it is advertised to be.
 
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