Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

I've been working on this for a few days, and I think no one else is planning on submitting for it, so here is some data to share with LC! 28 people have shared with me tier top 15 most viable Pokemon in the current metagame, ranked in accordance to the viability of the Pokemon in their opinion. However this is by no means an official list, merely what a section of the community agrees are the top dogs of the tier.

If you weren't able to share your list with me or would like to in the future, join the LC Discord or message me on PS! and I'll make sure to include you. I am likely to do this again once the next SPL concludes so that's when to message me about it.

This is the spreadsheet of everyone's list.

Here is a bar graph of how many times a Pokemon was included in someone's top 15 [higher = better]:

And here is another bar graph of how the raw average ranking of each Pokemon across each of its rankings [lower = better]:

Finally, we have the list final list; everyone's top 15 was weighted equally, and the more a Pokemon was ranked, the more its ranking was weighed. The list is a little wonky though, yet it is the best I could do with what we have.
Code:
| Rnk | Pokemon      |  #   | Avg Rnk |
| 1   | Vullaby      |  28  |  2.96   |
| 2   | Mienfoo      |  28  |  3.04   |
| 3   | Staryu       |  27  |  4.37   |
| 4   | Abra         |  27  |  4.63   |
| 5   | Timburr      |  28  |  5.39   |
| 6   | Onix         |  28  |  6.04   |
| 7   | Foongus      |  23  |  7.04   |
| 8   | Diglett      |  24  |  7.83   |
| 9   | Croagunk     |  26  |  9.15   |
| 10  | Gastly       |  16  |  10.13  |
| 11  | Grimer-A     |  19  |  10.26  |
| 12  | Shellder     |  15  |  10.4   |
| 13  | Doduo        |  19  |  10.47  |
| 15  | Pawniard     |  20  |  11.1   |
| 16  | Snubbull     |  20  |  11.2   |
| 17  | Torchic      |  10  |  11.7   |
| 18  | Surskit      |  4   |  10     |
| 19  | Snivy        |  16  |  12.15  |
| 20  | Ferroseed    |  13  |  12.23  |
| 21  | Chinchou     |  5   |  11.4   |
| 22  | Slowpoke     |  4   |  12.25  |
| 23  | Pumpkaboo-XL |  3   |  12.33  |
| 24  | Spritzee     |  4   |  13     |
| 25  | Elekid       |  2   |  13     |
| 26  | Larvesta     |  1   |  8      |
| 27  | Corphish     |  1   |  9      |
| 28  | Ponyta       |  1   |  12     |
| 29  | Rufflet      |  1   |  13     |
| 30  | Wingull      |  1   |  13     |
| 31  | Mudbray      |  1   |  14     |
| 32  | Aipom        |  1   |  15     |
| 33  | Kabuto       |  1   |  15     |
| 34  | Mareanie     |  1   |  15     |
| 35  | Wynaut       |  2   |  15     |
What do you guys think about these findings? Does it represent the current metagame well? Is something missing from the list? Anything far too high or far too low? What Pokemon looks like it should be really good at taking on the highly placed 'mons on the list?

Thank you all for contributing!
 
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Recently Chingling has taken the ladder and tournament scene by storm, often 6-0ing well constructed teams with its patented set of Cosmic Power, Recover, Stored Power, and a coverage move that allows it to deal with Dark-types. This set has very few counters, with only Sniper Scope Lens Focus Energy Remoraid consistently being able to halt the monster. Some sets have even adapted to running Rest over Recover to allow Chingling to set up on Mons with Toxic, which has recently become a staple on most teams to stop Chingling in its tracks. Hawlucha77, the player to first utilize the current standard Chingling set, has achieved ranks on the Little Cup ladder of over 1050 points, peaking at 1051, showing the horrifying consistency of the set. Here is the replay of this set first being utilized:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-604941477

Though this isn't the first time I, tko's dad, have been molly-whopped by an original set that would later become commonplace (Beat Up Dig: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-lc-77683), it is by far the most humiliating. I do think that if Chingling continues to see the unrivaled success it has seen in the last few days in the coming weeks, the LC Council will need to step in and take a closer look at Chingling and it's place in the Little Cup metagame. If anyone reading has had success combating Chingling's Double Power set, please post how you have been managing to do so.
 

Drew

formerly LitsYaBoi1337
is a Contributor to Smogon
Why Cutiefly deserves to be retested (keep in mind retested =/= unbanned):

Now this may sound weird, as it hasn't been brought up NEARLY as much as testing Abra or vullaby, or even reintroducing Drifloon, but hear me out. A lot has happened to the LC meta since Cutie's ban: Vulpix's ban, the rise of Flying- and Fire-types, Grimer's dominance, etc. many of these things make Cutiefly a lot worse, but 1 in particular is very important: Cutiefly has a new guaranteed check: Torchic. Not only can Torchic switch in on anything Cutiefly does, not only can it OHKO even a max HP +1 Special Defense Cutiefly, but Torchic can force Cutiefly to Baton Pass out, and when it does, Torchic can pass its boosts to a check, not only stopping Cutiefly, but also stopping Cutiefly's ability to Baton Pass its boosts along. More Pokemon have also risen: Doduo, especially Scarf variants can revenge kill Cutie easily, Alolan Grimer can switch in on anything a not +1 Cutiefly can do, Poison Jab Timburr can OHKO Cutiefly on switch in, etc. Take a wall of calcs!
+1 252 SpA Cutiefly Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Torchic: 9-11 (42.8 - 52.3%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11)
200+ SpA Life Orb Torchic Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Cutiefly: 26-34 (113 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (26, 26, 26, 26, 31, 31, 31, 31, 31, 31, 31, 31, 31, 31, 31, 34)
200+ SpA Torchic Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Cutiefly: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (20, 20, 20, 20, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)
200+ SpA Life Orb Torchic Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Cutiefly: 23-31 (100 - 134.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (23, 23, 23, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 31)
200+ SpA Torchic Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Cutiefly: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
76 Atk Ponyta Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cutiefly: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
76 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cutiefly: 42-50 (182.6 - 217.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (42, 42, 42, 42, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 44, 48, 48, 48, 48, 48, 50)
76 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Cutiefly: 24-30 (104.3 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 30)
+1 252 SpA Cutiefly Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Ponyta: 5-6 (23.8 - 28.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO
Possible damage amounts: (5, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6)
236 SpA Ponyta Flamethrower vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Cutiefly: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
196+ Atk Grimer-Alola Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cutiefly: 32-38 (139.1 - 165.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 38)
196+ Atk Grimer-Alola Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Cutiefly: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
236 Atk Onix Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Cutiefly: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 8)
+1 252 SpA Cutiefly Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Onix: 13-16 (65 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)
+1 252 SpA Cutiefly Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)
156 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Cutiefly: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (14, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)
156 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Cutiefly: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (20, 20, 20, 20, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)

You can do more calcs too if you want to prove it to yourself, but I think this is something we can legitimately retest. Obviously I'm not saying we should definitely unban, but it's worth a retest, at least in my opinion! Please drop your thoughts below!
 
If an offensive fire-type was enough to shut down cutiefly, then the popularity of ponyta at the time would have been more than enough. Similarly to ponyta, torchic does little to check sweeper cutiefly, which carries HP ground and hits 19 speed before setup. It also doesn't prevent bp fly from simply passing to a fire-resistant teammate like skrelp. Against non-z-chic, bulky cutiefly can pass a +2/+2/+2 if torchic switches in. With the removal of sun, which was one of the archetypes that could hold its own against cutiefly, and a variety of trends that favour cutiefly (onix is weak armor a lot of the time, grimer is bj more often, ponyta is less relevant, poison jab is no longer a common coverage move), cutiefly is arguably stronger than it was at the time of its ban
 
I would also like to mention that scarf Doduo does in fact NOT outspeed a +1 Cutiefly. Grimers Dominance won't help much either, as pursuit is the only move you'd hit it with unless someone clicks moonblast or roost or QD again, so whatever switches in (Likely something that resists it's STABs) will have an easy time sweeping with close to max health. Timburrs ability to run Poison Jab/Fire Punch is ofcourse a thing, but Cutiefly was one of the main reasons (Along with Gothita) that Timburr, currently an S rank mon, was dropped to B+ rank, simply because it forced Timburr to run an Iron Fist set or drop Knock Off on the BU set.
 

Quote

Cautiously Optimistic
is a Global Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
LC Co-Leader
There's no way I could agree to a Cutiefly retest atm. QD + Moonblast + HP Ground tears through a vast portion of the metagame, and if it gets into an uncomfortable position it can just BP the boosts away. On top of that, its general unpredictability with its sets means that you'll always need to double up on checks to make sure you have the right set covered. I don't have much more to say on this but I don't see it being a good idea.
 
idk mb if we banned bp we could actually see cutie in the proper light.

i like where your head is at drew, but unfortunately most of your point is rendered useless when factoring in the real reason why cutie is broken: baton pass. being able to be a strong offensive presence while simultaneously having the option to simply give its boosts to something else to maintain momentum made it an absurd matchup to face. i really don't think torchic is enough to counteract this, and if we were to address bp as the issue that would render torchic useless anyways.

this brings me to my main point though, and that is the idea of addressing bp. people say that bp isn't a problem in lc, but it was most assuredly an issue when dealing with cutie, and it's starting to rear its head with torchic again. i myself have abused the shit out of torchic and am of the opinion that it is way too easy of a strategy to pull off most of the time. the issue lies in how common the lo set has become, yet how viable some of the other sheer boost->pass sets are. it's sometimes a guessing game now. this isn't even mentioning some of the full bp's that can simply cheese games.

i get that cutiefly is a strong offensive force, but i honestly don't think it would break the metagame if it wasn't allowed to bp. there are enough strong checks ranging from fire types and grimer to steels like ferroseed, as well as the fact that cutie really is not that bulky, to warrant at the very least a retest. the issue is that i believe bp broke cutie from the beginning and now it's just stuck in purgatory because "bp isn't a problem".
 
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Berks

has a Calm Mind
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Banning Cutiefly results in less collateral damage than banning Baton Pass. Baton Pass is a legitimate non-broken strategy in SM LC and banning it just to free Cutiefly (which may be broken even without Baton Pass) is not a good idea by any means.
The idea behind banning Baton Pass is not expressly to free Cutiefly. Baton Pass has always been difficult to handle, only made manageable by a lack of a BP-compatible Magic Bounce user. Cutiefly was overwhelming because it was both an offensive threat and a key support Pokemon at the same time. Torchic itself is vastly underutilized and is similarly difficult to handle when used properly. Additionally, Baton Pass teams can still autowin in various matchups, which is ridiculous. Still unexplored as of yet are Baton Pass teams which utilize Z-moves, which may have potential to be truly unmanageable. The whole thing reminds me of Drifloon back in ORAS; a previously unknown set became absolutely dominant as soon as it gained popularity. Though of course I am aware that we are not bound in any way by the decisions of upper tiers, I believe that their all-out Baton Pass ban was a smart policy decision on their behalf which we would be equally smart to follow.

The interesting thing about a potential ban of Baton Pass is that it would not have the same collateral damage as it did in upper tiers. While several people were worried about protecting "drypass" strats used by Pokemon such as Celebi, I can't even think of an LC mon that does that regularly. Most if not all of the BP used in LC is explicitly for stat-passing, which is pretty interesting. Many top threats that use the move, such as Mienfoo and Torchic, would still be plenty viable without it!

Essentially, while I think it's a bit of a far cry, I'd love to see a Baton Pass ban. Maybe we reintroduce Cutiefly afterwards, maybe not, but I've never been a fan of BP.
 

blizzardy

Link Together With All
Removing Baton Pass wouldnt even have a massive effect on Torchich to be honest. Sure it would knock it down a few pegs, but Speed Boost is still a ridiculously good ability, being able to launch extremely powerful Fire Blasts then be automatically faster than whatever switches in to hit with a coverage move is pretty nasty.

If banning BP mean we could potentially bring back another mon (or mons- drifloon? eeveeium z?) at the cost of some mons no one uses anyway, I'd argue its worth it. I'm sure the meta will be fine without shellmet or togepi, and Mienfoo would still have all of its better options.
 

Xayah

We always have a plan
is a Contributor to Smogon
I personally have no opinion on wether BP should be banned or not (though I'm slightly leaning towards no ban), but one thing should be made very clear: BP has never and will never be banned based on it being broken. It would be (and has been, in higher tiers) banned based on being uncompetitive as it supposedly makes games very matchup based, as you either have one of the specific BP counters, or you don't. THAT is why BP was banned in higher tiers. We have to decide if we believe it does the same in LC. And quite honestly, yes Torchic is strong, but ways of dealing with BP aren't exactly rare or even uncommon, so maybe it makes it matchup based, but since BP will usually be on the wrong end of the matchup, it's not worth banning. Though looking at my teams I do see some that get kinda run over by BP, so maybe. But again, don't argue that BP is broken is you want it banned. Everyone knows it's not. If you want it banned, argue that it makes games too matchup based, and I wish you luck with that.
 
Removing Baton Pass wouldnt even have a massive effect on Torchich to be honest. Sure it would knock it down a few pegs, but Speed Boost is still a ridiculously good ability, being able to launch extremely powerful Fire Blasts then be automatically faster than whatever switches in to hit with a coverage move is pretty nasty.

If banning BP mean we could potentially bring back another mon (or mons- drifloon? eeveeium z?) at the cost of some mons no one uses anyway, I'd argue its worth it. I'm sure the meta will be fine without shellmet or togepi, and Mienfoo would still have all of its better options.
So I would just like to point out that 80% of Torchics viability comes from it's access to Baton Pass. Yeah, Speed Boost is strong and all, but Torchic lacks the coverage and power that Carvanha does to really pull that off. Torchic is good right now because it comes in on shit that dies to Fblast, uses said move (Hp grass predicting very bulky waters works too ig, protect if mon is faster t1), then hits whatever comes in hard again with Fblast og Hp Grass. One of the main scenarios here is vs offensive spinner Staryu, which dies to Fblast+Hp grass from LO Chic. However, after this it doesn't really OHKO anything, and is too frail to stay in. The idea behind the current Torchic set is that it passes +2 or +3 speed to an otherwise slow but powerful threat that can take a couple hits, like Mudbray, Timburr or Rufflet. Torchic itself have little to no use for the speed after it got a kill, and is forced out. This Speedboost is what makes the next mon so threatening, instead of losing momentum as it would without BP. Torchic would still be an ok powerful mon due to Fire being a strong offensive type and not being weak to Mach Punch from a very common poke like certain other Speed Boost mons, but saying that it's knocked down "a few pegs", you would take away what makes Torchic a good mon right now and essentially let it drop down to Eeevee level (Exaggeration). Banning Baton Pass might give Cutie a retest (Doubt it'll drop back down tho), but would essentially render Torchic useless, so 1 for 1 trade, you're ditching 1 threat to bring back another bigger threat. As for Shelmet/Togepi, I use Togepi :(
 

blizzardy

Link Together With All
So I would just like to point out that 80% of Torchics viability comes from it's access to Baton Pass. Yeah, Speed Boost is strong and all, but Torchic lacks the coverage and power that Carvanha does to really pull that off. Torchic is good right now because it comes in on shit that dies to Fblast, uses said move (Hp grass predicting very bulky waters works too ig, protect if mon is faster t1), then hits whatever comes in hard again with Fblast og Hp Grass. One of the main scenarios here is vs offensive spinner Staryu, which dies to Fblast+Hp grass from LO Chic. However, after this it doesn't really OHKO anything, and is too frail to stay in. The idea behind the current Torchic set is that it passes +2 or +3 speed to an otherwise slow but powerful threat that can take a couple hits, like Mudbray, Timburr or Rufflet. Torchic itself have little to no use for the speed after it got a kill, and is forced out. This Speedboost is what makes the next mon so threatening, instead of losing momentum as it would without BP. Torchic would still be an ok powerful mon due to Fire being a strong offensive type and not being weak to Mach Punch from a very common poke like certain other Speed Boost mons, but saying that it's knocked down "a few pegs", you would take away what makes Torchic a good mon right now and essentially let it drop down to Eeevee level (Exaggeration). Banning Baton Pass might give Cutie a retest (Doubt it'll drop back down tho), but would essentially render Torchic useless, so 1 for 1 trade, you're ditching 1 threat to bring back another bigger threat. As for Shelmet/Togepi, I use Togepi :(
I dont disagree with you but I still think Torchic is powerful enough to still be viable even without BP. Its a very powerful wallbreaker and cleaner, especially if you need to put the pressure on bulky water and rock types.

Just to be clear though I'm not necessarily advocating for a BP ban, I was just saying that I think the notion that we shouldnt ban something just because some Pokemon would be worse off without it is silly and if banning something makes the meta more fun for the most people then its definitely worth it, even at the cost if some mostlt unviable anyway mons.
 
I dont disagree with you but I still think Torchic is powerful enough to still be viable even without BP. Its a very powerful wallbreaker and cleaner, especially if you need to put the pressure on bulky water and rock types.

Just to be clear though I'm not necessarily advocating for a BP ban, I was just saying that I think the notion that we shouldnt ban something just because some Pokemon would be worse off without it is silly and if banning something makes the meta more fun for the most people then its definitely worth it, even at the cost if some mostlt unviable anyway mons.


Xayah posted a nice one about Baton Pass though, and I will use it to advocate a non-ban on Baton Pass. Your ideas are good, but banning just a move would be a bit too complex ig, LC mods (And at least a couple of us lesser people) prefer to keep it simple and ban mons that are broken when abusing a tech, rather than the tech itself.
 
If banning BP mean we could potentially bring back another mon (or mons- drifloon? eeveeium z?) at the cost of some mons no one uses anyway, I'd argue its worth it. I'm sure the meta will be fine without shellmet or togepi, and Mienfoo would still have all of its better options.
Nah, Floon's problematic sets never used BP anyways, and Eevee at +2 is more than strong enough to muscle past most of the meta even without passing - adaptability boosted STABs and 220 BP Stored Power are very scary to try and take. The only one a BP ban could possibly bring back is Cutiefly, and even then it might be a stretch, Cutie's pretty strong after boosting and has very good coverage with Moonblast and HP Ground.

I don't think BP is broken or matchup based enough that it requires a ban, at least not more so than other common playstyles like Webs or even some variants of typespam regardless.
 

YuguY

formerly Kanga
I know I won't be took especially seriously here, however I feel conversion should have been banned instead of Porygon. Z-Conversion was the broken part and Porygon is the only Pokemon that gets it. We all know that Porygon could trample through teams at +1 in every stat, however if the triangle bird was unbanned and conversion was banned, Porygon could become a healthy presence in the metagame similar to Generation 6. Not broken, but top tier.
 
I know I won't be took especially seriously here, however I feel conversion should have been banned instead of Porygon. Z-Conversion was the broken part and Porygon is the only Pokemon that gets it. We all know that Porygon could trample through teams at +1 in every stat, however if the triangle bird was unbanned and conversion was banned, Porygon could become a healthy presence in the metagame similar to Generation 6. Not broken, but top tier.
The argument's been had multiple times, and I highly suggest looking at the council votes which includes the reasoning behind banning Conversion vs banning Porygon as a whole.

To sum up arguments for and against (keep in mind that I was pro-Pory ban so apologies for any bias I end up putting in here). Note that all of this is under the assumption that Z-Conversion Porygon is broken.

For Conversion ban:
- Z-Conversion is the only broken set
- Conversion is only learned by one pokemon who uses it to broken effect, meaning no collateral in a ban
- Banning Conversion would effectively remove the broken element in the meta just as well as a Porygon ban (if this was incorrect this could be reexamined later)
- Porygon could be a useful, non-broken element in the metagame without Conversion, so a Porygon ban would be reducing options in the meta more than a Conversion ban

Against Conversion ban:
- Z-Conversion is broken in conjunction with Porygon's various other qualities, including high special attack, great movepool, recovery, bulk, and Download
--> Z-Conversion itself is arguably not broken (unable to be verified due to lack of other pokemon who get it), and we can look at similar (though not identical) moves in Z-Trick or Treat which do not create broken sets
--> Z-Conversion is unlike other banned moves in that it's not ludicrously broken (like Dragon Rage or Sonicboom) or blatantly uncompetitive (like OHKO or Evasion moves)
- Historically we do not ban pieces in order to save a Pokemon, even when that piece is unique (see Pure Power and Meditite, Drought and Vulpix in both BW and (after this suspect) SM, Speed Boost and Carvanha in BW)
- A Porygon ban is both simpler and leaves no room for doubt precedence-wise
- Conversion as a base move is not broken, and unless a complex ban of Normalium Z and Conversion is taken (which has its own potential for non-broken sets due to the way Normalium Z works) or the sim is modded so that you actually cannot click Z-Conversion (which is not a teambuilder ban), you're banning a non-broken element to get rid of a broken one in direct opposition of the precedent of Mega Evolution banning (this is largely due to Mega Evolution having a specific item that could be banned so this is not a particularly strong argument)
- We should not look at previous generation performance to say that Porygon without Z-Conversion would not be a broken element and so is worth preserving

If you want to look at the whole discussion in more detail beyond just the council votes the discussion is actually right in this thread! Head on back to page 2 and it goes on from there.
 
Someone please explain to me, having brought a perfect Veil counterteam and having handled his first baton pass recipient, how I was supposed to not lose this game.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-616753213

gotta love bp though!
Immediately go Mantyke instead of letting Croagunk set up on your Spritzee, while you still had rain up and so outsped, doing obscene damage with air slash.

If he Gunk Shots and hits (with an extremely minimal chance to KO depending on spreads), procs Berry Juice, you Air Slash and weaken severely, *take another Gunk Shot, he Sucker Punches (if he has it) for a KO, and then you proceed to finish it off with your Croagunk.

If he Bulk Ups then you Air Slash, die to Gunk Shot, and then finish with Croagunk.

Basically what happened is that you let a Croagunk set up on your Spritzee.

Disclaimer: a lot of this does depend on spreads which I don't actually know, and so may require changing what exactly you do turn by turn.
 
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Berks

has a Calm Mind
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Immediately go Mantyke instead of letting Croagunk set up on your Spritzee, while you still had rain up and so outsped, doing obscene damage with air slash.

If he Gunk Shots and hits (with an extremely minimal chance to KO depending on spreads), procs Berry Juice, you Air Slash and weaken severely, he Sucker Punches (if he has it) for a KO, and then you proceed to finish it off with your Croagunk.

If he Bulk Ups then you Air Slash, die to Gunk Shot, and then finish with Croagunk.

Basically what happened is that you let a Croagunk set up on your Spritzee.
Okay, so say I did that. Croagunk takes 18 damage from an Air Slash and OHKOes with Gunk Shot at +1 because I'm Waterium Z Mantyke. Assuming it's a fairly standard spread, we now have a 6 HP +1 +1 +1 Croagunk up against my Bulk Up Croagunk. At this point, his Drain Punch will do 6 HP, restoring 3 HP to his own Croagunk. My Gunk Shot does 4 damage assuming standard roll, My Drain Punch always does 4, and my Sucker Punch does 2.

He Drain Punches, I Bulk Up (optimal, otherwise I just lose)
His Gunk = 9 HP
Mine = 16 HP

He Drain Punches (does 4 Damage now), I Drain Punch (does 3 cause I'm 15 Atk)
His Gunk = 8 HP
Mine = 13 HP

He Drain Punches, I Drain Punch
His Gunk = 7 HP
Mine = 10 HP

He goes on to lose 1 HP each turn while I lose 3 and so on until my Croagunk dies. Alternatively:

He Drain Punches, I Bulk Up (optimal)
His Gunk = 9 HP
Mine = 16 HP

He Drain Punches, I Bulk Up again
His Gunk = 11 HP
Mine = 12 HP

He Drain Punches (does 3 now), I Drain Punch (does 5)
His Gunk = 7 HP
Mine = 11 HP

After three more turns of this, I come out on top with an 8 HP Croagunk (or so). Depending on his Pancham set, which is likely fast four attacks due to the fact that he's using a BP team, I either lose outright or struggle severely to scout the moves and make counterplay with a Spritzee vulnerable to Gunk Shot after he Knocks Off my Eviolite then sacks Torchic to bring in whatever and do more damage, a Pawniard which obviously loses to Pancham, especially due to the fact that his Torchic was still alive and able to pass again, and a sleeping Ferroseed. Essentially, I had very little hope for a winning scenario as soon as his Croagunk got +1 Speed, as I couldn't hope for even, say, an Iron Head flinch. Even then, all of this could've been avoided had I still had my Psychic Staryu, which I had sacrificed to his first ridiculous BP recipient, which, had it been an actual physical Vullaby set, could've easily swept or, if not that far, at least made my team sweepable from the moment it received Curse pass.

BP is ridiculous, and I genuinely do not think I could've won after Torchic came in on Spritzee.
 
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Someone please explain to me, having brought a perfect Veil counterteam and having handled his first baton pass recipient, how I was supposed to not lose this game.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-616753213

gotta love bp though!

Perfect Veil CT, Gj. Perfect team for Torchic to set up on, you lost by MU. Torchic comes in on Ferro/Weakened Sprit, and depending on set you have no chance. If LO then Star wasn't a switch in, since Curse apparently Mantyke/Pawn doesn't do much either. I mean your replay shows why TorchicPass is great rn, but if a ban is what you want then I don't think your replay is good enough.
 
It's not really Torchic's fault, though it certainly elevated Croagunk from the very big annoying Pokemon which you had to play around with your mediocre soft checks to something which now outpaces your answers and therefore can beat everything, which it almost did in the first place. Idt your team was very good, but it certainly has some super strong mus; anything with a Croagunk isn't one of those however.