Metagross (Analysis) [QC 0/3]

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#53
In the early DP metagame, specially defensive metagross was used to check latias (before the bann, yes) and to totally stop all kind of gengar, making offensive team not too weak to this two offensive monsters.
The idea was a spread of 252 hp / 40 atk / 216 spec def with a careful nature, allowing metagross to survive all speced draco meteor, life orbed shadow ball and even scarfed fire blast from timid heatran...
Then, he was able to use pursuit to always kill gengar on the switch (if he really wants to stay in, pick him off with bullet punch after using pursuit), and to put offensive latias in the ko range of another stealth rock switch in.
The 2 last slot were open to what you need: meteor mash or zen headbut for powerful stabs, earthquake for coverage, thunder punch for one of the greatest gyarados counter or ice punch to kill things like salamence (it's better to wait outrage, but you survive fire blast anyway).

And i think this metagross need a come back. If you're interested i can give you more information about him =)
 
#54
I think Zenbutt should be the primary slash on Agiligross that way you have something to at least hit Rotom-w and other waters with. Gli seems like the only reason for Ice Punch and if he is a problem, just run balloon (which Meta gets so many more setup opportunities with too). Mash does respectable damage to it and Zenbutt gives you the option for a desperation flinch as well.
 
#55
I've been extensively using Metagross and he is horribly underrated this Gen he is amazing. This is the set order in viability.

set orderings and suggestions over current:


1) Choice Band

[SET]
Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Meteor Mash
Move 2: Bullet Punch
Move 3: Hammer Arm
Move 4: Pursuit / Zen Headbutt / Trick
Nature: Adamant
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Atk / 80 SpD

Choice Band Meta is awesome right now. Hammer Arm needs to be the primary coverage move, as it does MASSIVE damage to Nattorei, and new evolution stone threats like Chansey and P-2, that can actually take a Meteor Mash. It also prevents Skarm from walling you, as the speed drop will make Skarmory unable to Roost without getting railed by a super effective Hammer Arm. Pursuit and the Special Defense makes you an excellent counter to the Lati@ twins, as you can switch into even a Surf (you can take 2 with the EV spread) and OHKO with a Meteor Mash or a Pursuit switching out. Otherwise, Zen Headbutt and Trick are excellent if you have Lati@ coverage. I would also mention how this thing can outmuscle Rank, and Meteor Mash 2HKOs Gliscor.


2) "Basic Gross"

[SET]
Name: Standard
Move 1: Meteor Mash
Move 2: Bullet Punch
Move 3: Hammer Arm
Move 4: Pursuit / Stealth Rock
Nature: Adamant
Item: Leftovers / Balloon / Expert Belt
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Atk / 80 SpD

Same EV spread and purpose, but freedom to switch attacks. Stealth Rock or Pursuit depending on team needs, since this does well against Lati@.

3) Agility
4) Trick


5) Coverage Meta

[SET]
Name: Mixed
Move 1: Meteor Mash
Move 2: Hidden Power Fire
Move 3: Hammer Arm / Grass Knot / Ice Punch
Move 4: Bullet Punch
Nature: Brave
Item: Expert Belt
EVs: 220 HP / 136 Atk / 60 SpA / 92 Spe

Same kinda deal, cept Hidden Power Fire for Nat, Forretress, and Skarmory. EV Spread outspeeds physically defensive Skarm and 2HKOs with Hidden Power Fire, which also 2HKOs Nat and OHKOs some Forry and Scizor. Hammer Arm for coverage (better than Earthquake these days), and Bullet Punch, is just Bullet Punch. Ice Punch for Gliscor, Grass Knot for Hippo.
 
#56
There is a big flaw in your description of Meteor Mash's base power.

You said that Life Orb MM has a base power of 180, while Choice Band MM has a base power of 200. Both of these are wrong.

Strictly speaking, Meteor Mash always has a base power of 100. Life Orb makes attacks 30% stronger, while Choice Band makes your attack stat 50% higher. These are multiplicative, so Life Orb MM with STAB has an "effective" base power of 195, while Choice Band STAB MM would be 225.
 
#57
There is a big flaw in your description of Meteor Mash's base power.

You said that Life Orb MM has a base power of 180, while Choice Band MM has a base power of 200. Both of these are wrong.

Strictly speaking, Meteor Mash always has a base power of 100. Life Orb makes attacks 30% stronger, while Choice Band makes your attack stat 50% higher. These are multiplicative, so Life Orb MM with STAB has an "effective" base power of 195, while Choice Band STAB MM would be 225.
I recalculated it and you are right. Mistake on my behalf. I am fixing that right away.

In the early DP metagame, specially defensive metagross was used to check latias (before the bann, yes) and to totally stop all kind of gengar, making offensive team not too weak to this two offensive monsters.
The idea was a spread of 252 hp / 40 atk / 216 spec def with a careful nature, allowing metagross to survive all speced draco meteor, life orbed shadow ball and even scarfed fire blast from timid heatran...
Then, he was able to use pursuit to always kill gengar on the switch (if he really wants to stay in, pick him off with bullet punch after using pursuit), and to put offensive latias in the ko range of another stealth rock switch in.
The 2 last slot were open to what you need: meteor mash or zen headbut for powerful stabs, earthquake for coverage, thunder punch for one of the greatest gyarados counter or ice punch to kill things like salamence (it's better to wait outrage, but you survive fire blast anyway).

And i think this metagross need a come back. If you're interested i can give you more information about him =)
This interests me. I will think about it.

I've been extensively using Metagross and he is horribly underrated this Gen he is amazing. This is the set order in viability.

set orderings and suggestions over current:


1) Choice Band

[SET]
Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Meteor Mash
Move 2: Bullet Punch
Move 3: Hammer Arm
Move 4: Pursuit / Zen Headbutt / Trick
Nature: Adamant
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Atk / 80 SpD

Choice Band Meta is awesome right now. Hammer Arm needs to be the primary coverage move, as it does MASSIVE damage to Nattorei, and new evolution stone threats like Chansey and P-2, that can actually take a Meteor Mash. It also prevents Skarm from walling you, as the speed drop will make Skarmory unable to Roost without getting railed by a super effective Hammer Arm. Pursuit and the Special Defense makes you an excellent counter to the Lati@ twins, as you can switch into even a Surf (you can take 2 with the EV spread) and OHKO with a Meteor Mash or a Pursuit switching out. Otherwise, Zen Headbutt and Trick are excellent if you have Lati@ coverage. I would also mention how this thing can outmuscle Rank, and Meteor Mash 2HKOs Gliscor.


2) "Basic Gross"

[SET]
Name: Standard
Move 1: Meteor Mash
Move 2: Bullet Punch
Move 3: Hammer Arm
Move 4: Pursuit / Stealth Rock
Nature: Adamant
Item: Leftovers / Balloon / Expert Belt
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Atk / 80 SpD

Same EV spread and purpose, but freedom to switch attacks. Stealth Rock or Pursuit depending on team needs, since this does well against Lati@.

3) Agility
4) Trick


5) Coverage Meta

[SET]
Name: Mixed
Move 1: Meteor Mash
Move 2: Hidden Power Fire
Move 3: Hammer Arm / Grass Knot / Ice Punch
Move 4: Bullet Punch
Nature: Brave
Item: Expert Belt
EVs: 220 HP / 136 Atk / 60 SpA / 92 Spe

Same kinda deal, cept Hidden Power Fire for Nat, Forretress, and Skarmory. EV Spread outspeeds physically defensive Skarm and 2HKOs with Hidden Power Fire, which also 2HKOs Nat and OHKOs some Forry and Scizor. Hammer Arm for coverage (better than Earthquake these days), and Bullet Punch, is just Bullet Punch. Ice Punch for Gliscor, Grass Knot for Hippo.
These sets are helpful. Thank you for the help, and I will credit you for the extensive help that you've provided.
 
#58
Ack sorry for the late QC check. I talked it over with my fellow QC member Bloo, and we want to see a few changes:

-You need to change the set order. It should be Choice Band > Stealth Rock > Agility > Trick> Mixed > Hone Claws. Choice Band was bumped to #1 because it allows Metagross to several top tier threats (Reuniclus, Lati@s, etc)
-Replace Earthquake on the Choice Band set with Hammer Arm. In fact, replace all mentions of Earthquake with Hammer Arm.
-The Stealth Rock set needs an item change. Leftovers should be the main item and Occa slash should be mentioned in AC.
-Add RaikouLover's mixed Metagross set.

If you do all of that, you can consider this approved.
 
#59
For the second set you have listed, Focus Sash and Explosion as a side option for Earthquake should be listed, with 12 EVs in Speed.

Explosion is highly underrated right now. Since it is no longer 500 base power, players dropped it under the assumption it isn't useful. With Explosion and 12 EVs in Speed, Metagross effectively out speeds minimal speed or 4 EV Politoed and OHKOs with Explosion, even with 252/0 investment. It also does this with Ninetales, and survives a Fire Blast in the sunlight with Shucca Berry. I'd recommend Focus Sash in this case, as it is useful in the event that you want to set up Stealth Rock + Explode on Politoed, as Politoed will OHKO you with Choice Specs 252 EVs and Modest in the rain. It also gives insurance against Critical Hits. After you've OHKO'd there weather starter, you have a chance to bring in your own Tyranitar/Ninetales/Politoed/Abomasnow/Hippowdon for free, and the game is then in your momentum. I typically place my weather starter as a lead in my party, then I'll swap it for Metagross, as this particular set is able to handle many common starting threats.

I've also used Explosion to great effect against sweepers that stat up, and it will effectively OHKO if the threat isn't Steel, Rock or Ghost. Reuniclus, Garchomp locked in to Outrage, et cetera.
 
#60
-Replace Earthquake on the Choice Band set with Hammer Arm. In fact, replace all mentions of Earthquake with Hammer Arm.
Not that I'm in any place to criticize your decisions, but Hammer Arm on Agiligross seems redundant. Why boost your speed if you're going to lower it yourself? What are the benefits to it in that particular instance?
 
#61
You can keep at least a single boost so you can hit stuff like Ferrothorn. Basically, use the strategy when your ready. I think the move should be slashed with Earthquake on Agility, but when you think about it, Hammer Arm does look better on the other sets.
 
#62
I have been using Scarf Gross and its been doing fairly well, so at the very least I think it should get Other Options mentions. If your team has to keep the genies, Gengar, Terrakion, no weather Excadrill etc. he can keep all of them in check easily while catching people off guard who expect to land a heavy hit on the standard slower Metagross. He wants a Jolly Nature with Max Attack, near max speed, and a moveset of Meteor Mash/Earthquake/Ice Punch/Pursuit with Hammer Arm as an option over EQ
to nail balloon-holding steel types. Note that it won't 2HKO Ferrothorn. Trick can also be used.
 
#64
385 at +1 = 577
386 at +1 = 579

You gain an extra Attack point when you're at +1 with 180 Atk EVs instead of 176.
+1 either is a Choice Band or a Meteor Mash Attack boost.
Besides, 252 HP gives you an extra Spikes-3 damage.

Change the sets to 248 HP / 180 Atk / 80 SpD.


(What are the 80 SpD for?)
 
#65
@ Doom Chaos- You don't want your Metagross getting 2HKOed by Latios's Draco Meteor (yes its that strong). It helps for all kinds of special threats it can check including Gengar and Reuniclus, preventing 2hkoes from them as well. As an added bonus with incredible base defense it makes Metagross quite hard to take down.
 
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