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Gen 3 Metagross [full revamp] (Stage 1)

Discussion in 'RBY / GSC / ADV' started by kd24, Mar 27, 2013.

  1. kd24

    kd24 lemme just whip my dick out and slam it on the table
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    lots of credit to dekzeh, mdragon, and cbb for their help with this.

    [Overview]

    <p>A high-tier Pokemon for sure, Metagross has beastly stats, a great defensive typing, the potential to sweep well if given the chance, as well as the ability to blow up something crucial with Explosion. Unlike Salamence, Dragonite, and Tyranitar, it has no 4x weaknesses, so it's hard to OHKO. However, it is slowed down by most standard teams because Steel is poor as a main attacking type. Despite its typing, though, Meteor Mash is a good move overall.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Meteor Mash
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Explosion
    move 4: Rock Slide
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 152 HP / 240 Atk / 16 Def / 100 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set is monstrous. It requires very little prediction for a Choice Band user due to the fact that all of its moves hit extremely hard. If you eliminate your foe's physical walls, this metal tank will plow down your opponent's team with its outrageous Attack stat and moderate defensive capabilities. Meteor Mash, Earthquake, and Explosion are a must for their raw power and ability to hit just about everything; with the given EVs, Explosion is bound to achieve more than 80% damage even to the most defensive Skarmory, and possibly OHKOing some special defensive varients. Rock Slide is Metagross's answer to its most common switch-ins, Zapdos and Gyarados.</p>

    <p>The given defensive investment lets Metagross survive Adamant +1 Earthquake from Salamence, as well as an Earthquake from Jolly Choice Band Dugtrio. 100 Speed is enough to outrun Milotic, making it tougher for it to switch in.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>Sludge Bomb can be used over Rock Slide for the purpose of poisoning random threats and damaging Celebi more than any other attack. Hidden Power Fire could be utilized for some Forretress, although it won't touch Skarmory at all. Sleep Talk is an interesting idea, allowing Metagross to better counter Gengar, while also providing an Explosion at any second.</p>

    [SET]
    name: HPGross
    move 1: Meteor Mash
    move 2: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Fire
    move 3: Explosion
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Naughty
    evs: 252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Designed to lure in Swampert or Forretress, depending on which Hidden Power you choose, one might think this is an over-centralized set. However, Metagross does not have to invest into Special Attack at all to 2HKO either of these Pokemon, allowing Metagross to invest entirely in attack while focusing on retaining defensive bulk. This Metagross makes the perfect partner to teams that revolve around killing Swampert quickly, making it a good partner to Salamence and Tyranitar.</p>

    <p>Meteor Mash is Metagross's main STAB move; it is a vital attack for breaking down the opponent's walls, and also gives Metagross the chance of receiving an Attack boost, which might in turn power up Explosion. Earthquake counters several common threats and can catch unsuspecting Magneton off guard. The Speed EVs make use of Metagross's Explosion, outspeeding Milotic and Suicune before blowing them up. Although rare, it also outspeeds Jolly Marowak as well. The rest of the EVs are focused into Defense rather than HP, giving Metagross an extremely favorable chance of surviving Dugtrio's Earthquake.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>An alternative bulky spread can be used of 252 HP / 240 Atk / 16 Def. This spread will always survive Adamant Dugtrio's Choice Band Earthquake, while still being a hefty attacker. Although you'll be unable to outspeed Milotic and Suicune, the increased bulk will help Metagross take hits from threats like Heracross, Salamence, and Tyranitar much more efficiently.</p>

    [SET]
    name: AgiliGross
    move 1: Agility
    move 2: Meteor Mash
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Explosion / Rock Slide
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 152 HP / 240 Atk / 16 Def / 100 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Switch this into Snorlax and other Choice Band Normal-types, Psychic-types as well, then fire off Meteor Mash. Metagross will probably immediately be met with a defensive wall, so attack first, and only boost late-game when its counters have been either eliminated or weakened. Explosion is for whenever you feel Metagross can do no more; if your opponent has a Ghost-type, be sure it has been removed before using Explosion. Watch out for Protect as well; as Metagross is such a common Pokemon, many experienced battlers have gotten used to battling it and can predict when it will use Explosion, and might use Protect when that happens. Rock Slide isn't a bad idea if you'd rather do a load of damage to Zapdos instead of commit suicide. However, Rock Slide generally is an inferior choice as it only hits a select number of Flying-types.</p>

    <p>A Speed stat of 200 is recommended for being able to outspeed Milotic before a boost. The defensive bulk is ripped straight from CB Gross, as Metagross can use those opportunities to set up an Agility. Lum Berry is a solid item for this Metagross as well, as it prevents Weezing, Gengar, and paralysis from ruining your day. It's especially helpful for when Metagross is paired with a Swords Dance Baton Pass Celebi. Lum Berry can prevent Metagross from taking status during the Baton Pass turn.</p>

    [SET]
    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Rest
    move 2: Sleep Talk
    move 3: Meteor Mash
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 124 Atk / 16 Def / 116 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set capitalizes on Metagross's many resistances and natural bulk to let it remain alive throughout the battle. RestTalk Metagross can easily switch into the likes of Gengar who won't be able to touch Metagross, as even Fire Punch will never 2HKO. This Metagross acts as a great check to many of the tier's best attackers including Raikou and Tyranitar. +1 Thunderbolt and +1 Earthquake from each, respectively, will always fail to kill Metagross by a decent margin, allowing Metagross to strike back with its Super-effective attacks.</p>

    <p>One of the best gifts of this set is the ability to punish Magneton who may switch in on Metagross. Thunderbolt from Magneton will never 2HKO, allowing Metagross to OHKO back with its powerful Earthquake. Rest allows Metagross to counter similar threats throughout the match. Rest can also be looped to stall and gain attack bonuses vs some of the more defensive Pokemon in ADV. Milotic will never be able to 3HKO Metagross, while Metagross can slowly build up Attack boosts from Meteor Mash before threatening a 2HKO with Earthquake.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Metagross can use special attacks fairly effectively, and you should be cautious of a special Metagross at all times. Psychic stops Will-O-Wisp Gengar and Weezing right in their tracks, making Metagross an effective lead because of its ability to threaten any possible switch-in. Even Swampert needs to be careful of Psychic when switching in. Hidden Power Fire with Special Attack investment can take on more physically defensive Skarmory, and can stop Forretress as well. Pursuit is an option to trap a Gengar trying to flee, and can be used for small damage on Celebi afraid of Explosion as well. Without STAB, however, Pursuit will generally fail to do anything else.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Swampert, Milotic, Vaporeon, and Suicune all don't fear much from Metagross due to their good bulk and typing, which let them sponge Meteor Mash easily; they also won't take too much damage from Metagross's other attacks, with the exception of Explosion. Ludicolo is a less popular Water-type counter, but it resists Earthquake in addition to Meteor Mash, and all in all can be a nuisance to Metagross. Skarmory resists Meteor Mash and is immune to Earthquake, but must watch out for ThunderPunch or Hidden Power Fire. Skarmory also can't do much in return except to lay Spikes and phaze Metagross away, so variants that lack Rest or Hidden Power Ground can't beat Metagross one-on-one. Zapdos and Moltres are two other Pokemon that resist Metagross's two most powerful attacks, but watch out for Rock Slide. Similarly, Charizard is a threat to Metagross that lack Rock Slide as it might launch a Belly Drum and go for the sweep.</p>

    <p>Dugtrio can trap Metagross after its initial kill, but Metagross can be EVed to survive even Adamant Dugtrio. Magneton must walk on eggshells against Metagross, but has a chance to trap and beat it. If Metagross lacks Earthquake (which OHKOes) or Hidden Power Fire (which is usually a 2HKO), Magneton has a nearly guaranteed win. Furthermore, even if Metagross has Earthquake, there are scenarios in which Magneton can win. For example, if Magneton outspeeds Metagross and Metagross is at 40% health or below, Magneton should be able to KO Metagross with Thunderbolt before Metagross can use Earthquake. If it is locked into anything except Earthquake, Choice Band Metagross will always fall to Magneton too, as long as Magneton switches in after Meteor Mash.</p>
  2. Jirachee

    Jirachee Nightfall
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    on the HP Grass set I believe that HP EVs are far superior to Defense EVs, thanks to Metagross' very high Defense stat.

    It is said that Def EVs are better because it's better vs Dugtrio, but here's what CB Dugtrio's Earthquake does with Def EVs:

    252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Metagross: 254-302 (84.38 - 100.33%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

    which is indeed an excellent chance of living without residual damage. Now, the same calc with HP EVs:

    252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 284-336 (85.28 - 100.9%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

    As you can see, the damage doesn't differ a lot and there's actually the same chance of getting OHKOed, so it will never make a difference.

    However, 128 HP EVs allow Metagross to take Special attacks much better. With 128 HP EVs, it is never 2HKOed by Modest Gengar's Thunderbolt at max health:

    252+ SpA Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 128 HP / 0- SpD Metagross: 139-164 (41.74 - 49.24%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    while here's the same attack against 128 Def Metagross:

    252+ SpA Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Metagross: 139-164 (46.17 - 54.48%) -- 57.81% chance to 2HKO

    I know that some players often run Modest Gengar without Fire Punch (like cbb), so it can really come in handy sometimes.
  3. Danilo

    Danilo
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    all of your calcs are wrong cause they're using a bw formula
    GG

    edit* i do believe that a bulky hp gross is far superior to the one listed. gross's typing and excellent defenses have always made me think of him as a defensive pivot first and an attacker second. Enough EVs to very comfortably survive Jolly Dugtrio, a good amount of Attack, a lot less Speed, and some Special Attack seems to be the best way to EV this Metagross. I understand that you want to outspeed Milotic before you boom on it but booming on it after isn't a bad thing, especially if you're bulky. I missed the discussion on this spread but I'm very interested as to why a bulky spread wasn't chosen for HP Gross. I see there is an alternative spread listed in the AC. If anything that should be the main spread, although I think we can calculate a more efficient spread for a very efficient Pokemon.
  4. Pocket

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    384 STAB EQ: 85-100% to 128 Def Metagross
    384 STAB EQ: 85-99% to 128 HP Metagross.

    Jirachi is right - 128 HP makes best use of Metagross overall AND physical bulk than 128 Def. What the OP is suggesting is analagous to pumping EVs into Defense rather than HP in physically defensive Skarmory - a terrible idea.
  5. Awoken

    Awoken

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    I think the mixed Metagross set is worth a mention. It's very good against teams based around Tyranitar/Forretress/Gengar, being a very good Forretress lure. (EVs can probably be changed)

    Metagross @ LeftoversTrait: Clear Body
    EVs: 188 HP / 160 Atk / 160 SAtk
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Meteor Mash
    - Psychic
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Explosion
  6. Royal Flush

    Royal Flush

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    Very situational imo, kd already mentioned it on Other Options, and this is where it should be, really.
  7. Andeby

    Andeby

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    Toxic on Metagross seem to be a new trend on PO. Especially on lead Metagross. I can see why, as crippling a bulky water can open a sweeping path later on for something like Salamence or Tyranitar.

    Perhaps worth an OO-mention?
  8. cookie

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    yeah, I've been using toxic metagross to decent success. It does leave you wide open to forretress/skarm (unless you run HP fire, which then limits your options even further) and rest bulky waters don't really give a shit about it, but it utterly screws protect swampert and suicune without rest (even milotic doesn't like poison too much)
  9. Pocket

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    Ya, Toxic on Metagross gives it an additional weapon to cripple Water-types in addition to Explosion. Sure it doesn't affect Skarmory or Forretress, but that's the same for almost all Metagross without HP Fire.
  10. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    Running both is not viable, is it?

    This does assume that you're bringing in your Metagross more often; I don't see why one would use HP fire instead of Toxic unless you scouted your opponent beforehand and know he has a tendency to use Skarmory and the likes. HP Fire is not an OHKO on specially defensive Forretress though and doesn't hurt specially defensive Skarmory.
  11. Pocket

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    Yea, HP Fire is largely for Forretress, not Skarmory
  12. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
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    Is this ready for GP?

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