Metagame Middle Cup (Combusken Banned)

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
#76
I have linked a PS server that allows Middle Cup to be played as a format in the OP. Come over there if you want to play some MC, I'll try to be active on there to give you guys battles :3

Also will try to unload some Sample Teams for beginners to get started in the tier and for those in need of teams. If you have any teams to showcase, feel free to do so!
 
#77
I have linked a PS server that allows Middle Cup to be played as a format in the OP. Come over there if you want to play some MC, I'll try to be active on there to give you guys battles :3

Also will try to unload some Sample Teams for beginners to get started in the tier and for those in need of teams. If you have any teams to showcase, feel free to do so!
Middle Cup's out!?

I don't see it.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
#84
Gonna just post some more cool mons and sets that I haven't seen talked about very much as of late.

combusken.gif

Combusken @ Life Orb / Fightinium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 8 Def / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Protect

Combusken is a really big threat in Middle Cup, boasting the ability Speed Boost which allows it to outspeed the unboosted metagame at +1, and allows it to gain even more Speed Boosts to outspeed pretty much every Scarfer at +2 or +3. Combusken is also really damn powerful, with the amazing offensive typing of Fire/Fighting that is basically unresisted in this tier, and having access to high-powered STAB moves to crush the opponent with. It's very easy to just clean up a weakened team with Combusken late-game thanks to Speed Boost, and because of how hard it is to check naturally because of how strong it is. The item choice is basically up to preference. LO gives Busken the most power in it's moves, but Fightinium Z is an option I've found to be pretty viable, giving a one-time STAB nuke that also doesn't miss, which can be quite nice. I've also seen SD variants of Combusken that can put in some crazy work once set up. Overall, I think Combusken is a top threat in MC because of how powerful Speed Boost is in a frail offensive metagame like this, and I can easily see how it could become overwhelming to deal with in the near future.

frogadier.gif

Frogadier @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Level: 50
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Dark Pulse
- U-turn

Frogadier is normally seen using an AoA set with Life Orb, using its amazing coverage moves that become STAB thanks to Protean to break down opposing teams and sometimes clean up late-game with Frogadier's great speed stat. However, I think a really underrated set has to be Choice Scarf Frogadier, inspired by the Scarf Greninja sets up in OU. It's actually a pretty good revenge killer, outspeeding threats such as +1 DD Fraxure, +2 Rhydon, and even +2 Combusken is outsped by this set. Frogadier's great speed tier also comes into play, as with a Choice Scarf equipped, it outspeeds pretty much every other Scarf user, namely mons such as Trumbeak, Haunter, and Monferno. While this set does lack the power of the LO sets, it makes up for it by being a great revenge killer and a potential late-game cleaner that can also surprise the opponent due to being so unexpected. I think this set has the potential to become one of Frogadier's best sets, and one of the best Scarfers in the meta.

fletchinder.gif

Fletchinder
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Roost / Will-O-Wisp
- Overheat

Now, I won't lie and say that Fletchinder hasn't gotten worse in the transition between ORAS to SM, because it definitely has gotten worse with the Gale Wings nerf. However, I still think that Fletch can be a viable option with the right support. Fletchinder actually has a pretty okay natural speed stat of 84, which lets it outspeed all non-Scarf sets of Monferno even without Gale Wings, which is a pretty decent benchmark that also lets it outspeed mons like Fraxure w/o Gale Wings. This lets Fletch be a decent revenge killer to these mons, as Acro still hits pretty hard because of how frail the meta is. However, it is still important to try and keep the Gale Wings intact, as having a strong priority option is amazing for RKing threats such as Kadabra (Sash broken) and Choice Scarf users. Another niche Fletch has is in it's Fire typing, which allows Fletch to become a Flying-type that also threatens Doublade, one of the common checks to other Flying-types such as Trumbeak. Doublade is not a problem for Fletchinder, as STAB Overheat does massive damage to it.

4 SpA Fletchinder Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Doublade: 164-194 (98.7 - 116.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

This alone is very helpful to Fletch, allowing it to bypass a normal Flying check. However, Fletch is still walled by Rhydon unless you use Wisp, which means losing Roost which helps in keeping the Gale Wings intact. However, that only makes Trumbeak an even better partner to Fletch, as they both share similar checks that the other can break through. (Fletch breaks Steel-types, Trumbeak has Bullet Seed to bypass Rock-types). This makes for a pretty cool BirdSpam core that can break past their checks and pave the way for one of them to sweep late-game. Overall, while Fletchinder is worse off than in ORAS for sure, and does require a lot of support to work properly, I still find that it can be a relatively decent set-up sweeper and an okay revenge killer when given the right support.

dartrix.gif

Dartrix @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Overgrow
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Leaf Blade
- Brave Bird

After seeing the discussion on it earlier in this thread, I decided to try out Dartrix to try and find a niche for it in the meta. And while I can say that it isn't a very good mon in the tier, it does hold a small niche in being a Flying-type that can break most typical Flying checks (Rhydon, Doublade, Metang) in one set. Dartrix can pull off a SD set pretty well, acting as both a wallbreaker and a potential sweeper with Sucker Punch. Grass/Flying/Dark coverage is surprisingly really good, and having a strong Brave Bird is a nice thing to have, especially when boosted, breaking through pretty much any wall that isn't resistant to Flying. Leaf Blade busts through Rock-types, Ground-types, and Water-types and is also a nice secondary STAB that doesn't have recoil. Sucker Punch gives Dartrix some much-needed hope against faster offense teams because it's so slow, and at +2 it's pretty strong, although I'd advise to have good hazard support because sometimes it just isn't enough to kill some threats. Darkinium Z is probably what makes this set work, as +2 Black-Hole Eclipse (Z-Sucker Punch) busts through Doublade and Metang, who could otherwise give this set some trouble by playing around Sucker Punch. This gives Dartrix it's niche of being a Flying-type that breaks through pretty much every Flying check bar Magneton. However, Dartrix still has plenty of problems, such as being really slow, making it rely on Sucker Punch a lot, which doesn't help because Sucker is sorta weak without the SD boost. It also faces severe competition from Trumbeak as a Flying-type, who has Bullet Seed to break through Rhydon and while it can't break through Doublade as easily, Trumbeak is faster, meaning it doesn't have to rely on priority as Dartrix has to do. Dartrix can still be a useful but very niche option as an effective wallbreaker against defensive core that can also support other Flying-types by breaking down their checks, but it's still very niche and is usually outdone by other options.

I'm also working on a Role Compendium as of late, so stay tuned for that! And if you have any discussions or opinions to share, don't be shy, since this thread does need some activity ^.^
 
#85
So with Ultra Sun and Moon on the way, how do guys think the Middle Cup meta will change? I am all but positive that the Gen 7 starters will have their HA's around the time of release which means Torracat should get a new lease on life with Intimidate backed by a decent speed tier. Long Reach could also be interesting on Dartrix since it can now avoid RH's and contact abilities and what not. On top of that, tutors will be giving Gen 7 mons options they didn't have before. The middle evolution's I'd expect to benefit most from tutors are probably the starters, Hakamo-o, and Trumbeak. I personally would love to see Hakamo-o distinguish itself from the other pseudo-mid Dragons (Honestly, the whole line has a been a big disappointment so far). Also with the unveiling of the 2 new Ultra Beasts, that means new Pokemon are on the table! I personally think the best we could hope for is a new Alolan variant of a 3 stage family. It's unlikely, but getting an Alolan Weepinbell or something from another generation would be cool.

Also, in the interest of sparking discussion, would it be possible to get all the Middle Cup mons ranked in a Viability chart? Given how niche this metagame is, I think it would be great if any souls interested had a place to start.
 
#86
With it's Hidden Ability and Move Tutors I think Torracat could be a decent Choice Scarf user. With Intimidate it would be able to check to Moferno, Staravia, Trumbeak, Klang, Machoke, Gurrdurr, Hakamo-o and Servine. Zen Headbutt/Psychic Fangs, Thunder Fang, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Low Kick and Superpower are some Move Tutors I think Torracat could get. Zen Headbutt/Psychic Fangs and Low Kick and Superpower are all great moves for Torracat to hit Fighting Types like Moferno, Low Kick and Superpower hits Rhydon who Torracat couldn't hit before. An other mon who would be alot better with Move Tutor is Hakamo-o. Hakamo-o could get Thunder Punch, Ice Punch, Fire, Punch, Drain Punch, Knock Off, Gunk Shot, Sucker Punch and Superpower. With these Moves I think Hakamo-o would distinguish itself from Fraxue, Fraxure will still be better with it's higher Attack stat but Hakamo-o would've a wider move pool.
For the other Gen 7 mons I don't really know any moves that would make them better. Maybe Giga Drain for Charjabug could be cool to break Rhydon.
 
#87
How good are scyther/sneasel/other lc ubers?
I think that sneasel is alredy viable in NU(though I could likely be mistaken)
Also, what about weather? Are aurora veil users good?
Haven't played the meta myself, but I'm looking forward to it when i can use a device with javascript support.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
#88
How good are scyther/sneasel/other lc ubers?
I think that sneasel is alredy viable in NU(though I could likely be mistaken)
Also, what about weather? Are aurora veil users good?
Haven't played the meta myself, but I'm looking forward to it when i can use a device with javascript support.
The LC Ubers mons are actually not allowed here due to the rules regarding which Pokémon can count as a Middle Cup mon. Seeing as they are Little Cup, they cannot be middle evolutions, and therefore cannot count as a MC Pokémon.

As for weather, I think Sun and Rain teams could have potential as there are many Pokémon that can abuse Chlorophyll and Swift Swim to sweep, such as Weepinbell, Lombre, and Palpitoad. Sadly, there are no Pokémon that can learn Aurora Veil in Middle Cup, so those kinds of teams are off the table.

Also that Role Compendium I've been working on is almost finished, I just was really lazy over the past month xD, but it is coming soon, don't worry!
 
#89
The LC Ubers mons are actually not allowed here due to the rules regarding which Pokémon can count as a Middle Cup mon. Seeing as they are Little Cup, they cannot be middle evolutions, and therefore cannot count as a MC Pokémon.

As for weather, I think Sun and Rain teams could have potential as there are many Pokémon that can abuse Chlorophyll and Swift Swim to sweep, such as Weepinbell, Lombre, and Palpitoad. Sadly, there are no Pokémon that can learn Aurora Veil in Middle Cup, so those kinds of teams are off the table.

Also that Role Compendium I've been working on is almost finished, I just was really lazy over the past month xD, but it is coming soon, don't worry!
oops. my bad; guess i didn't read rules well enough.
are there any dual screeners?
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
#90
oops. my bad; guess i didn't read rules well enough.
are there any dual screeners?
There are probably a few Psychic-types that have access to Dual Screens, but I think Dual Screens is more trouble than it's worth compared to just bashing through the opponent's team with Middle Cup's strong Pokémon.
 
#91
The LC Ubers mons are actually not allowed here due to the rules regarding which Pokémon can count as a Middle Cup mon. Seeing as they are Little Cup, they cannot be middle evolutions, and therefore cannot count as a MC Pokémon.

As for weather, I think Sun and Rain teams could have potential as there are many Pokémon that can abuse Chlorophyll and Swift Swim to sweep, such as Weepinbell, Lombre, and Palpitoad. Sadly, there are no Pokémon that can learn Aurora Veil in Middle Cup, so those kinds of teams are off the table.

Also that Role Compendium I've been working on is almost finished, I just was really lazy over the past month xD, but it is coming soon, don't worry!
IMO, with only around 50 mons or so, LC mons should be allowed. It'd add a lot more diversity to an otherwise somewhat stale metagame. I could see Scyther and Sneasel in particular being super good.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
#92
IMO, with only around 50 mons or so, LC mons should be allowed. It'd add a lot more diversity to an otherwise somewhat stale metagame. I could see Scyther and Sneasel in particular being super good.
The thing with adding LC mons is that it goes against the criteria of allowing only middle evolutions, which I'm wary about keeping even though I will admit that mons like Scyther and Gligar would be neat additions.
 
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Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
#94
Middle Cup Role Compendium

Entry Hazards:
Stealth Rock:

Spikes:

Toxic Spikes:

Sticky Web:


Hazard Control:

Defog:

Rapid Spin:


Clerics:
Wish:

Heal Bell/Aromatherapy:


Checks Section:


Fighting-type Checks:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Kadabra Checks:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Fire-type Checks:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Water-type Checks:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Grass-type Checks:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Dragon-type Checks:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Ground-type Checks:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Pivots:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Setup Sweepers:
Swords Dance:

Dragon Dance:

Calm Mind:

Rock Polish:

Other:
(Nasty Plot)
(Bulk Up)
(Agility)
(Z-Conversion)
(Z-Celebrate)
(Trick Room)
(Belly Drum)
(Contrary)
(Curse)
(Swift Swim)
(Chlorophyll)
(Speed Boost)
(Shift Gear)

Wallbreakers:


Choice Scarf Users:


Priority Users:
Mach Punch:

Aqua Jet:

Bullet Punch:

Ice Shard:

Shadow Sneak:

Extreme Speed:
 
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#95
Middle Cup Role Compendium

Entry Hazards:
Stealth Rock:

Spikes:

Toxic Spikes:

Sticky Web:


Hazard Control:

Defog:

Rapid Spin:


Clerics:
Wish:

Heal Bell/Aromatherapy:


Checks Section:


Fighting-type Checks:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Kadabra Checks:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Fire-type Checks:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Water-type Checks:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Grass-type Checks:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Dragon-type Checks:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Ground-type Checks:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Pivots:
Offensive:

Defensive:


Setup Sweepers:
Swords Dance:

Dragon Dance:

Calm Mind:

Rock Polish:

Other:
(Nasty Plot)
(Bulk Up)
(Agility)
(Z-Conversion)
(Z-Celebrate)
(Trick Room)
(Belly Drum)
(Contrary)
(Curse)
(Swift Swim)
(Chlorophyll)
(Speed Boost)
(Shift Gear)

Wallbreakers:


Choice Scarf Users:


Priority Users:
Mach Punch:

Aqua Jet:

Bullet Punch:

Ice Shard:

Shadow Sneak:

Extreme Speed:

This is spectacular work! This really gives a clear cut picture of what middle evolutions you'd use in place of stuff you're more familiar with in traditional play. Do think it'd also be possible to get a beta Viability Ranking list or is that unreasonable at this time?
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
#96
This is spectacular work! This really gives a clear cut picture of what middle evolutions you'd use in place of stuff you're more familiar with in traditional play. Do think it'd also be possible to get a beta Viability Ranking list or is that unreasonable at this time?
I can definitely get a Preliminary Viability Ranking out, it wont be perfect of course but it would give a neat little snapshot of how viable the mons in MC are for newer players. (And it can add more activity to the thread with nominations for rises and drops as more people come and test out the mons!)
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
#97
Viability Rankings 1.0
This list will sort Pokemon in Middle Cup according to viability in the current metagame. Viability within a rank will be based on the order of Pokemon in that rank (temporarily in Alphabetical order). Much like every other viability ranking on Smogon, S-Rank features the best Pokemon in Middle Cup (if there are suspects they will most likely come from here), and then viability descends throughout the rankings.

S Rank:
Combusken
Electabuzz
Kadabra

A Rank:

A-High:
Doublade
Fraxure
Frogadier
Gurdurr
Magneton
Monferno
Piloswine
Porygon2
Rhydon
Servine

A-Low:
Chansey
Croconaw
Haunter
Gabite
Golbat
Krokorok
Magmar
Marshtomp
Prinplup
Roselia
Seadra
Togetic
Trumbeak
Whirlipede

B Rank:
B-High:
Dragonair
Duosion
Dusclops
Gothorita
Grovyle
Lampent
Machoke
Marill
Metang
Quilladin
Sliggoo

B-Low:
Fletchinder
Gloom
Herdier
Ivysaur
Klang
Lombre
Pignite
Staravia
Swadloon
Vigoroth
Zweilous

C Rank:

C-High:
Charmeleon
Dartrix
Eelektrik
Hakamo-o
Lairon
Nuzleaf
Palpitoad
Poliwhirl
Sealeo
Vibrava
Weepinbell

C-Low:
Charjabug
Clefairy

Floette
Graveler
Graveler-Alola
Grotle
Luxio
Nidorina
Nidorino
Pidgeotto
Pikachu
Shelgon
Steenee
Torracat
Vanillish

D Rank:

D-High:
Bayleef
Braixen
Boldore
Brionne
Dewott
Flaaffy
Jigglypuff
Kirlia
Loudred
Pupitar
Quilava
Skiploom
Tranquill
Wartortle

D-Low:
Cascoon
Cosmoem
Kakuna
Metapod
Silcoon
Spewpa

Discussion Points: None At The Moment!
 
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#98
Oh Cosmoeum. If had gotten Baton Pass or a move that does damage you could have have gotten ranked. Being outranked by Cascoon is...too sad for words.

That aside this looks like a pretty good start. Cool to see Alola gave us at least 1 mon that was viable from the get-go. (Shame Trumbeak's speed goes in the toilet when it becomes a Toucannon). I am also expecting Torracat to shoot up in the world once Intimidate is hopefully released as I can see that Intimidate is not a common utility in this tier. Also give Alolan Graveler Ice Punch so Ground types don't meme on it.
 
#99
Viability Rankings 1.0
This list will sort Pokemon in Middle Cup according to viability in the current metagame. Viability within a rank will be based on the order of Pokemon in that rank (temporarily in Alphabetical order). Much like every other viability ranking on Smogon, S-Rank features the best Pokemon in Middle Cup (if there are suspects they will most likely come from here), and then viability descends throughout the rankings.

S Rank:
Combusken
Electabuzz
Kadabra

A Rank:

A-High:
Doublade
Fraxure
Frogadier
Gurdurr
Magneton
Monferno
Piloswine
Porygon2
Rhydon
Servine

A-Low:
Chansey
Croconaw
Haunter
Gabite
Golbat
Krokorok
Magmar
Marshtomp
Prinplup
Roselia
Seadra
Togetic
Trumbeak
Whirlipede

B Rank:
B-High:
Dragonair
Duosion
Dusclops
Gothorita
Grovyle
Lampent
Machoke
Marill
Metang
Quilladin
Sliggoo

B-Low:
Fletchinder
Gloom
Herdier
Ivysaur
Klang
Lombre
Pignite
Staravia
Swadloon
Vigoroth
Zweilous

C Rank:

C-High:
Charmeleon
Dartrix
Eelektrik
Hakamo-o
Lairon
Nuzleaf
Palpitoad
Poliwhirl
Sealeo
Vibrava
Weepinbell

C-Low:
Charjabug
Clefairy

Floette
Graveler
Graveler-Alola
Grotle
Luxio
Nidorina
Nidorino
Pidgeotto
Pikachu
Shelgon
Torracat
Vanillish

D Rank:

D-High:
Bayleef
Braixen
Boldore
Brionne
Dewott
Flaaffy
Jigglypuff
Kirlia
Loudred
Pupitar
Quilava
Skiploom
Tranquill
Wartortle

D-Low:
Cascoon
Cosmoem
Kakuna
Metapod
Silcoon
Spewpa

Discussion Points: None At The Moment!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see Steenee on the list anywhere. It would probably just be D-Rank, but it bothers my OCD
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see Steenee on the list anywhere. It would probably just be D-Rank, but it bothers my OCD
Ah, I actually forgot about Steenee when making the rankings, thanks for catching that! I'll add it to C-Low for a starting point since having access to Rapid Spin and not being outclassed by anything in that regard (unlike Wartortle) is at least worth a small niche, bigger than D-High at least.