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Mienshao [BW2 Revamp] [QC: 3/3] [GP: 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Gary2346, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    QC Approved: 3/3
    [​IMG]
    GP Approved: 2/2
    [Overview]

    <p>Mienshao has a number of traits that set it apart from its main competitor in OU, Terrakion. A what's essentially an immunity to passive damage thanks to Regenerator and better wallbreaking abilities thanks to the ability to use special attacks make Mienshao a better dedicated wallbreaker than Terrakion and a perfect weapon to use against defensive teams. Aside from being a better wallbreaker than Terrakion, which is Mienshao's main niche in OU, Mienshao has a few more aces up its sleeve. Thanks to Reckless, Choice Scarf Mienshao is more powerful than Choice Scarf Terrakion and has better cleaning potential, but it needs a ton of support, especially in the removal of Ghost-types, which prevent Mienshao from spamming its main STAB. Finally, with access to Regenerator and Baton Pass, Mienshao can provide free switches for its teammates with its SubPass set, something that Terrakion can't do.</p>

    <p>Although Mienshao has quite a few appealing attributes, it is not without flaws. Mienshao is extremely frail, and thus cannot take even the weakest of hits comfortably. This means that Mienshao must get a free switch-in to come in, forcing it to act as more of a hit-and-run attacker. Mienshao's main STAB, Hi Jump Kick, has a nasty side effect, chipping away 50% of its health each time it fails to land. With the prevalence of the move Protect and Ghost-types, such as Jellicent and Gengar, Mienshao has to be very careful. It also faces slight competition from Terrakion for a teamslot, as they fill similar roles, not to mention that Terrakion is faster than Mienshao. Nevertheless, Mienshao is very unique compared to other Fighting-types in the tier and can pose a huge threat when used correctly.</p>

    [SET]
    name: All-Out Attacker
    move 1: Hi Jump Kick
    move 2: Grass Knot / Stone Edge
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice
    move 4: U-turn
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Regenerator
    nature: Naive
    evs: 252 Atk / 24 SpA / 232 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>If there is one set that really sets Mienshao apart from the other Fighting-types in OU, it would have to be this one. This set takes all of Mienshao's useful traits and mixes them all together. Because Mienshao has the ability to utilize its Special Attack, this set runs special moves that provide coverage on most of its common switch-ins, particularly Gliscor, Landorus-T, Jellicent, and Hippowdon. Regenerator is really useful here, as it helps mitigate Life Orb recoil every time Mienshao switches out. Hi Jump Kick is Mienshao's only STAB move and it is put to good use on this set by hitting everything very hard, 2HKOing and OHKOing most unresistant foes while decimating Tyranitar, Blissey, and Ferrothorn. Be cautious when using this move when Ghost-types are around, or else Mienshao's health will be instantly halved by recoil. Also make sure to be wary of using this move against Pokemon that commonly carry Protect, such as Ferrothorn, as this will also incur the recoil. The next move is a tough choice between Grass Knot and Stone Edge. Grass Knot is usually preferred because it messes with Mienshao's common counters, such as Jellicent and physically defensive Hippowdon, both of which wall this set quite well. Stone Edge still has its merits against Volcarona and Gyarados though, so it all depends on what threats you need Mienshao to cover. Hidden Power Ice is one of this set's greatest selling points, as it can KO Gliscor and Landorus-T and prevent them from completely walling this set while also dealing super effective damage to Garchomp, Salamence, and Dragonite. U-turn rounds off the set by allowing Mienshao to create some much-needed momentum in addition to having outstanding synergy with Regenerator.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Because this set depends a lot on Mienshao's special attacks, a Naive nature should always be used to get the best out of both offensive stats. Fake Out is an option for dealing damage right off the bat and picking off weakened foes, but it is pitifully weak, and Mienshao misses the coverage provided by Grass Knot or Stone Edge. Reckless can be used if you want really powerful Hi Jump Kicks, but Regenerator is much more useful as it mitigates Life Orb recoil. Partner-wise, Choice Scarf Tyranitar and Scizor come to mind, as they can Pursuit trap Ghost-types relatively easy. Bulky Psychic-types, such as Celebi, defensive Starmie, and Latias, are also quite problematic for this set because Mienshao has nothing to really hit them hard with, but Tyranitar can deal with them quite easily. Choice Scarf Tyranitar also has the ability to outspeed and trap Gengar, Latias, and Latios while also bringing in sand for extra residual damage to help Mienshao guarantee a few 2HKOs, most notably on physically defensive Jellicent with Grass Knot after Stealth Rock. Latias and Latios are really nice teammates because they can outspeed Keldeo and Terrakion, both of which outspeed Mienshao and threaten it. Because Mienshao is so frail, bulky teammates, such as specially defensive Celebi, Hippowdon, specially defensive Heatran, and Landorus-T, are choices, having the added bonus of being able to set up Stealth Rock.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: U-turn
    move 2: Hi Jump Kick
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Hidden Power Ice
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Reckless / Regenerator
    nature: Naive
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>A Choice Scarf sacrifices Mienshao's ability to switch between moves in order to allow it to become a potent revenge killer. Mienshao's Speed stat combined with a Choice Scarf allows it to outspeed all positive-natured base 100 Speed Pokemon at +1, letting Mienshao revenge kill the likes of Salamence, Haxorus, and Volcarona, which commonly boost their Speed. Ability-wise, Reckless is almost always preferred, as it allows Mienshao's Hi Jump Kick to 2HKO even Skarmory after Stealth Rock, a feat that Choice Scarf Terrakion can only dream of. Regenerator still has its merits though, especially if your team lacks a Rapid Spin user. Unlike Terrakion, Mienshao has access to U-turn, which lets it gain much-needed momentum against common switch-ins, such as Jellicent and Hippowdon, while also dealing a huge chunk to Celebi. Hi Jump Kick hits very hard when boosted by Reckless, and oftentimes Mienshao will find itself sweeping with it at the end of the game, OHKOing pretty much everything that's weak to it and 2HKOing almost everything else. A few notable 2HKOs that Hi Jump Kick boosted by Reckless achieves are ones on defensive Skarmory after Stealth Rock damage, offensive Latias, and specially defensive Jirachi. Standard Ferrothorn and Breloom are always OHKOed as well. Stone Edge is very important to OHKO Gyarados and Volcarona in particular, both of which can wall all of Mienshao's other moves. Hidden Power Ice is Mienshao's hidden weapon against Gliscor and Landorus-T, which are very common switch-ins against Fighting-types in general. Hidden Power Ice has other uses though, such as OHKOing Dragonite after Stealth Rock and allowing Mienshao to take out Salamence 100% of the time after Stealth Rock, unlike Stone Edge, which misses quite frequently.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>A Naive nature should always be used on this set because Mienshao does not want Hidden Power Ice to be weakened if it were to run Jolly. Grass Knot is still very much viable on this set because Jellicent and Hippowdon are both very problematic, but it should only be used if you do not need Mienshao to handle Gliscor or Landorus-T. Unlike the all-out attacking set, Choice Scarf Mienshao requires a lot more prediction to use. Due to the prevalence of Jellicent, Gengar, and users of the move Protect, Mienshao has to be very careful when locking itself into Hi Jump Kick, lest it receive a nasty 50% drop in health due to recoil. To remedy this, Tyranitar and Scizor are stressed on this set as partners. Both of them can trap Jellicent and Gengar with Pursuit, allowing Mienshao to use Hi Jump Kick without having to worry about it missing due to these Ghost-types. Not only are Scizor and Tyranitar useful for trapping Ghost-types, but they are also useful for trapping bulky Psychic-types, such as Latias and Celebi, which are very problematic for this set. Entry hazard support is stressed heavily on this set, as it secures a few important 2HKOs, such as Skarmory and Latias, while also securing OHKOs on Keldeo and Breloom. Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Forretress are all great users of Spikes. Both Kyurem and Kyurem-B are fantastic teammates because their powerful Ice-type STAB lets them deal with Hippowdon and Landorus-T, allowing Mienshao to run Grass Knot over Hidden Power Ice if you want to.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Baton Pass
    move 1: Substitute / Swords Dance
    move 2: Baton Pass
    move 3: Hi Jump Kick
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Regenerator
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Mienshao can utilize its above-average Speed stat and Regenerator in order to become a great Baton Passer. The main goal of this set is to set up a Substitute or a Swords Dance on a predicted switch and then Baton Pass to a suitable recipient. Because Mienshao forces a lot of switches, it will find numerous opportunities to set up. Regenerator is always preferred on this set to mitigate Life Orb recoil, health lost from Substitute, and because Mienshao will be switching in and out quite frequently. The choice between Substitute and Swords Dance depends on your team. If you wish to pass free protection to a sweeper that can set up on its own, then Substitute is preferred; however, if something on your team would appreciate a +2 Attack boost, then Swords Dance is obviously the better choice. Hi Jump Kick is used to give Mienshao a means of attacking, KOing Tyranitar and Blissey with ease. Although this set is meant to support other teammates, Mienshao can still pose a threat behind a Substitute or with a Swords Dance boost if it has to. Stone Edge is useful for all-around great coverage, preventing Volcarona, Gyarados, and Salamence from setting up on Mienshao.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>There really isn't too much more to say about this set, as it is pretty straightforward. Mienshao can either pass a Substitute to teammates in order to ease up prediction and provide a free switch-in opportunity, or pass a +2 Attack boost to a suitable recipient. Swords Dance requires more prediction, however, especially if your opponent has a faster check to Mienshao that could keep it from passing.</p>

    <p>Mienshao's teammates for this set differ depending on what you want Mienshao to be passing. If Substitute is being used, Scarf Tyranitar is one of the best teammates, as it is able to deal with everything that troubles Mienshao due to its ability to come in risk-free. Nasty Plot Celebi also appreciates the free protection that Substitute gives, being able to easily switch in on Jellicent and Hippowdon while still keeping its Substitute intact. Kyurem-B is a fantastic teammate if Mienshao runs Substitute due to Kyurem-B's great bulk and useful resistances to Water and Grass, allowing it to keep the Substitute from breaking. This will let Kyurem-B run an extra coverage move if it wants, as it wouldn't have to run Substitute thanks to Mienshao. Calm Mind Latias and Reuniclus are both deadly behind a Substitute, making them both great partners to this set as well. If Mienshao is running Swords Dance, fast physical attackers are obviously preferred. Choice Scarf Tyranitar can safely switch into fast Psychic-types, such as Latios and Latias, threatening to decimate them with Crunch or trap them with Pursuit. Poison Heal Breloom can easily switch into Scald from Politoed and Jellicent while posing an instant offensive threat to the opposing team. Dragon Dance Gyarados, especially offensive variants with Lum Berry, appreciate the boost and can easily take any move that Hippowdon and Jellicent might throw at them while easily OHKOing them at +2.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>There are not that many other options for Mienshao, as most of its movepool is quite useless. A Choice Band can used to power up Hi Jump Kick to even higher levels, but the Life Orb set has similar power, and this set is mostly outclassed by Terrakion anyway. A Bulk Up set sounds tempting, but Mienshao is too frail to take advantage of the Defense boost and will find it very hard to safely set up. An offensive Calm Mind set could work, seeing as Mienshao has access to Grass Knot, Hidden Power Ice, and Aura Sphere; however, it is inferior to its other sets, and there are much better users of Calm Mind out there anyway. Rock Slide can be used over Stone Edge on all of its sets if you hate the accuracy of Stone Edge, but the loss in power is easily noticeable. Taunt can help out its Baton Passing set, but it forces it to give up a coverage move.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Mienshao is extremely frail, so a single powerful blow can easily take it out, even from full health. Anything that can outspeed it can probably check it with little-to-no problem. Gengar can outspeed Mienshao and OHKO with Shadow Ball. Latios and Latias can threaten it with pretty much all of their moves, but they cannot reliably switch into Hi Jump Kick. Landorus-T, physically defensive Hippowdon, and Gliscor are all great counters to Choice Scarf Mienshao locked into anything other than Hidden Power Ice. Celebi can come in on the Choice Scarf set's Hi Jump Kick, but it has to watch out for U-turn. Jellicent is by far one of Mienshao's greatest counters, as it can come in on Hi Jump Kick and threaten it with Will-O-Wisp or even Scald. Sableye is arguably even better then Jellicent, as it fears none of Mienshao's moves and cannot be Pursuit trapped by Tyranitar or Scizor. Starmie can also outpace Mienshao and survive a Hi Jump Kick from the Choice Scarf set if need be. Tornadus can revenge kill with Hurricane as long as Mienshao isn't holding a Choice Scarf.</p>
  2. LucaroarkZ

    LucaroarkZ

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    Fake Out is, in general, a bad move, and Mienshao is not an exception to this rule. I know some people might think, "Oh hey! Free damage!", but in reality you're giving things like Terrakion free switch-in opportunities. Hell, even non-resists take pitiful damage; Keldeo takes a measly 18.82 - 22.53% from Fake Out and Jolteon is not 2HKOed. This is not mentioning the fact that Mienshao attracts Ghost-types like Gengar and Jellicent, reducing your number of opportunities to use Fake Out without consequence to approximately zero. I really think Stone Edge would be better there. Stone Edge is great to prevent Volcarona from setting up on you (hi my name is Volcarona and I resist HJK, GK, and HP Ice), while also hitting things like Gyarados and Thundurus-T harder than any other move Mienshao has.
  3. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Yeah I agree completely. I've never been one to use Fake Out on Mienshao myself, but I wanted to see what others thought about it. I'm glad to remove it from the QC. Thank you.
  4. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest lovin'
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    Yeah tbh I don't really see the utility in using Fake Out. Fake Out is simply a situational move that provides a free switch-in to things legitimately dangerous such as Gengar and Terrakion. Fake Out, as LucaroarkZ mentioned, is horrendously weak and does not do anything useful. As LR mentioned, Mienshao attracts Ghost-types (hence why Technitop is bad), so you're never going to accomplish much at all. And with the advent of Gen 5's Team Preview, dedicated leads are almost nonexistent, and the most common surviving one, Azelf, shits on Mienshao anyways, so Fake Out is never going to be useful.

    I also am in agreement that Stone Edge is very useful. Being an avid user of Mienshao in OU, Stone Edge has been incredibly useful every time I've used Mienshao. It nabs at a lot of Flying-types such as Tornadus on the switch harder as well as Gyarados. HP Ice with little SpA investment may not always be sufficient enough, so Stone Edge is really useful to nab Flyers. So yeah, Stone Edge is better here.

    Mention that Choice sets face very stiff competition from Terrakion. Acknowledge that U-turn and Regenerator are what make Choice sets worth the use; Mienshao can grab momentum to switch out which gives it an edge over Terrak. That's all I gotta say.

    Also acknowledge SD faces competition from Terrakion too! But mention it's still pretty lethal and its Speed tier is what makes it stand out.

    Other than that, this is good imo.
  5. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    I don't think that Choice Band Mienshao is set worthy. Sure, it hits super hard, but at that point Terrakion seriously gives it a lot of competition. Terrakion has a STAB on Stone Edge and can defeat some Pokemon with extremely heavy prediction. Also, considering Reckless is prefered on a CB set and the fact that Mienshao is very frail, it is a large price to pay in order to just hit a bit harder with one of your moves. The fact that it has U-turn is less significant there than on the Choice Scarf set because it doesn't offer quite as much momentum. It also doesn't help that Mienshao's Regenerator and frailty makes the residual damage on the All-out-attacker less significant (a big reason why you would use a Choice Band in the first place is because it lacks recoil).

    Even then, Choice Sets are very rarely combined in the first place anyway. The two seem to have a big difference on usage (Reckless used over Regenerator, for example), so the two probably need separation if the CB set stays.

    idk if Swords Dance is viable - it seems extremely hard to set up, though I have never used/faced it so I don't know quite how scary it is. Also, @The above: The fact that Mienshao has a good speed tier means little on the SD set. It is outsped by Terrakion (which gives it a ton of competition) and other base 108s, meaning speed is not where it has an edge. Terrakion seems scarier because it has more than one "strong" move, which becomes notable against foes such as Jellicient and Slowbro.

    Finally, Regenerator is 33%, not 25%, so fix that in the OU.

    EDIT:
    Do these three synergize well with Mienshao? What do entry hazards help achieve (as in specific KOs)? Saying that entry hazards are useful isn't that helpful unless there are specific KOs that Mienshao really appreciates, because there isn't a single Pokemon, offensive or defensive, that doesn't like entry hazard support. The same goes for the other sets.
  6. kokoloko

    kokoloko &McMeghan: chef koko seasoning his games with some salt
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    Why in the world are you merging Scarf and Band sets when:

    1. they play completely differently and
    2. CB isn't even worth mentioning.

    Fake Out is better in OU than it is in UU because its a lot easier to build passive damage due to sand etc, and there's (surprisingly) less things in this tier that want to switch into Mienshao. You probably want HJK | U-turn | HP Ice | Stone Edge / Fake Out for the All-Out Attacking set.

    Consider making Scarf the first set, and probably removing SD entirely... I don't think that's even viable in OU.

    Make sure you note how Mienshao differentiates itself from Terrakion in terms of sheer power; here's an example:

    252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 106-126 (35.09 - 41.72%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 Atk Reckless Mienshao Hi Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 135-159 (44.7 - 52.64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    yeah... "get fucked" basically.

    PS: Reckless should be slashed first on the Scarf set for sure.

    EDIT: I just realized I basically repeated what Swamp-Rocket said... fuck ninjas.
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    252 Atk / 24 SpA / 232 Spe with Naive nature should be the main spread, enough to outspeed Jolly Garchomp. I also prefer Grass Knot over Stone Edge as it lets Mienshao get past its biggest counters:

    • 24 SpA Life Orb Mienshao Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 289-341 (68.8 - 81.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 24 SpA Life Orb Mienshao Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 177-211 (43.92 - 52.35%) -- 79.69% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Those two Pokemon are very common and otherwise wall Mienshao, so Grass Knot is very useful (it aslo 2HKOes the rare Slowbro). The only real problem without Stone Edge is that Gyarados can set-up on you, but i think it is worth it if it means making Mienshao a more effective wallbreaker. Fake Out is fine in AC for teams that are desperately in need of priority, but otherwise just limits Mienshao's coverage and wallbreaking potential.

    Move Choice Band to OO and make Scarf a set of its own. Also slash Reckless first, as the the extra power is really important and Mienshao doesn't have much use for Regenerator on the Scarf set anyway. (Mienshao won't take any hits so only residual damage matter, and Mienshao won't get enough switches to die from residual damage)

    Also remove the SD set and instead add this one:

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Pass (idk)
    move 1: Substitute / Swords Dance
    move 2: Baton Pass
    move 3: Hi Jump Kick
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Regenerator
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    With HP Ice mentioned in the AC.
  8. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    I merged the Choice sets because the original analysis had them merged, and I honestly thought that the Choice Band set should have gotten more of a mention then just in the OO, but I didn't think it deserved a separate analysis. I guess the fact that Hi Jump Kick is boosted doesn't neccesarily justify its viability, although I've had great success with it. I'll change it so it's just Choice Scarf then, and I think Reckless Choice Scarf is a good enough representation of power anyway.

    I'll also remove the SD set and replace it with the Sub Pass set. I've used the SD set to great success, but it is REALLY hard to set up, and Terrakion does give it stiff competition. I'll make sure to change it.

    EDIT: Fixed.
  9. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Actually, unless Mienshao misses out on a specific KO with physical hits, I do think the main spread for HP Ice-using sets should be 232 Atk / 24 SpA / 252 Spe, allowing Mienshao to speed tie at worst with opposing Mienshao (most of whom use 232 Spe today but that's trivial) and Choice Specs Zoroark.

    Also, I'm shocked to see Gothitelle, every Fighting-type's best friend, not mentioned here! Please put it in as a prime teammate that can eliminate several Ghost-types, though keep in mind that both Gothitelle and Mienshao will struggle a little around Gengar. Scarf Goth can take it easier, though it's hard pressed to switch into Shadow Ball or break a Substitute. It should also be noted that Gothitelle's more comfortable with taking on Jellicent, who burns Scizor and Tyranitar, though in this case players might consider using Non Choice or Specs.

    Also, perhaps I'm delving too much into teambuilding, but you may also consider mentioning using Scizor, Mienshao, and Gothitelle together, since they form a U-turn core, and Gothitelle traps whatever switches into U-turn. Scizor (or Ttar) takes care of Gengar and other fast Psychic-types too. Pretty good from the sounds of it, though I'll have to test this out to make sure.
  10. BKC

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    i tried subcm bp aura sphere once and it's pretty cool so i'd put that in the bp set's AC. also i don't think stone edge is entirely necessary so i'd slash in sub/sd with it since there are a lot of things that like recieving subs and/or (sp)atk boosts against ghosts.
  11. Jukain

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    ok 2 suggestions:

    - change offensive passer to baton pass, there's no other bp mien
    - take out the regen slash, there's literally zero reason to use it on scarf
  12. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Fixed the sets.
  13. ginganinja

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    Still prefer this layout of the BP set. In my experience, Swords Dance was really difficult to pull off (you need to get a free switch and outspeed and pass) whereas Sub was always a good option to scout a switch and even if they went to a revenge killer, at least you get a "safe" switch to whatever you pass into.
  14. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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  15. ginganinja

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    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  16. Rohail

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    Don't use Gothitelle to kill ghosts, use pursuit users such as T-Tar or Scizor, also I think U-Turn should be behind HJK on both sets. Regenerator seems useful on the scarfed set coz it will be switching alot, but I can see why u would opt not to put it coz Meinshao is usually too frail to even survive a hit that it wud recover from.
  17. alexwolf

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    You still haven't made Grass Knot the first slash as i told you.
  18. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Sorry, you were a bit unclear as to which you wanted first, seeing as you only put Stone Edge in your set. Fixed.
  19. alexwolf

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    I meant in the first set, as i told you the first time.
  20. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Fine fine I fixed it.
  21. BKC

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    qc approved 2/3
  22. Gary2346

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    Thanks BKC. I'll finish writing this up hopefully by Thursday.
  23. alexwolf

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    Instead of listing Mienshao's attributes little by little, i would prefer it if you compare it with its biggest contender, Terrakion, and show to the reader why he would use Mienshao over it. Mention that the ability to act as a better wallbreaker (getting past easily all the Pokemon that trouble Terrakion such as Lando-T, Hippo, and Gliscor) combined with Regenerator, which makes it practically immune to passive damage, are the two main reasosns to use it over Terrakion and make it a much better dedicated wallbreaker or hard hitter in teams that struggle with entry hazards. Then after you mention those, i guess you could mention Reckless HJK as a little pro of Mienshao over Terrakion, but it's really not something big, and the real reasons to use Mienshao are the ones i mentioned above.

    Change the order of the second and third set, as honestly Scarf Mienshao is very hard to fit on a team and there are almost always better choices. Without LO and Regenerator, Mienshao loses its mixed attacking potential and the immunity to passive damage, which means that he loses the two biggest pros he had over Terrakion. Even though Reckless HJK is super strong, it's STAB move is not easy at all to spam, Mienshao is impossible to bring in without slow U-turn/Volt Switch support or smart double switches, making its revenge killing job harder. Finally, Mienshao will rarely clean or sweep late game, as there are many faster scarfers such as Keldeo and Latios, while he is also very weak to priority. All those problems make it an inferior choice to other choice scarfers, usually, so move the scarf set to the bottom.

    Scarf Tyranitar is easily the best partner for LO Mienshao. It effortlessly traps and kills Gengar, which Mienshao can easily lure and safely bring in Ttar in with U-turn, can trap and kill SpD Jellicent (the only Jellicent that can avoid the 2HKO from Grass Knot), traps and kills Lati@s, and finally brings in sand, which allows Mienshao to get some guaranteed 2HKOes (physically defensive Jellicent is always 2HKOed from GK after SR and sand for example).

    Spikes support is not necessary at all for Mienshao, so only mention SR support. Hippowdon, SpD Celebi, Heatran, and Landorus-T are all SR users that have good synergy with Mienshao (either beating some of its checks and counters or walling some of the Pokemon that can revenge kill it). Remove the previous hazard users you had mentioned.

    This is a good example, but seeing as it is very important to explain to someone why they would use this over Terrakion, please mention some more relevant examples of Pokemon that are OHKO-2HKOed by HJK but not by CC.

    Elaborate. What hazard users work well with Mienshao and why?

    How? Please elaborate (i know that you may be planning to do so upon writing this, but i don't know you well so i have to make sure of this).

    Also remove any Gothitelle mention from the AC of all sets as Tyranitar simply outclassed her as a trapping partner for ghosts and psychics. Replace all of those mention with choiced Tyranitar, especially Scarf Tar, which as i mentioned before is the perfect teammate for Mienshao.
    I would like you to combine all those traits into one sentence that describes the practical use of Baton Pass Mienshao, instead of saying what each move does, something that the reader probably already knows. So explain how this set plays similarly to the first set, but gives up coverage in order to become less prediction reliant (Sub + Baton Pass eliminates the need of any prediction and Regenerator makes Sub free) or even potentially allow a teammate to keep a Sub up in certain cases (Baton Pass the Sub to NP Celebi in case Jellicent comes in for example). Similarly, with Swords Dance, mention how it allows Mienshao to keep up the offensive pressure and avoid getting walled, while even if it does, it can pass the SD boost to another Pokemon and keep the sweep going.

    While the use of Sub is pretty straightforward, the use of SD isn't, so elaborate a bit. Mention that if the opponent has a faster check to Mienshao alive it is probably better to straight up attack or Baton Pass, while if the opponent's checks and counters to Mienshao are slower, using SD is the best option, as you can pass the boost to something that can beat those Pokemon if they decide to come in.

    Remove Grass Knot, which defies the purpose of the set. Those two Pokemon can already be beaten by passing a Sub/SD boost to the appropriate teammate or by just attacking Hippo in case he chooses to use Whirlwind. Not to mention that giving up the ability to OHKO Dragon-types as well as many other targets is not worth losing just to 2HKO Hippo. The only attacking move you should mention in the AC is HP Ice for teams that have troubles with Gliscor, Landorus, and Landorus-T,

    Not so sure about this. Special attacking Mienshao is very weak for OU standards, to the point that many Pokemon can stay-in and OHKO it back instead of getting forced out, such as Ferrothorn, SpD Tyranitar, and most slower offensive Pokemon. Unless you have had great battling experience with this set and can explain why one would use it over other CM + Baton Pass users, move this to OO.

    As for teammates to the Baton Pass set, this is probably the most important part of this set, so make sure to be thorough and precise. If Sub is being used, Scarf Tyranitar is one of the best teammates as always, being able to deal with everything that troubles Mienshao and coming in risk-free. Similarly, any kind of offensive Celebi, especially Nasty Plot variants, work well with SubPass Mienshao as they are able to easily switch into Jellicent while keeping the Sub intact, and they can beat Hippowdon too. I could mention more examples but i would like you to think of some too, so mention another 1-2 teammates that work well with SubPass Mienshao and why, with details. You can even keep everything you have mentioned as teammates so far, as long as you explain why they work well with SubPass Mienshao.

    If Mienshao uses SD, many of its partners should be different. Mienshao can no longer set-up a Sub as faster checks come in and bring in a teammate unscathed, so teammates such as Scarf Tyranitar cannot come in as easy as before but are still good teammates. What you should be mentioning here are either Pokemon that can deal with the faster checks of Mienshao (Lati@s, Gengar, defensive Starmie), so Scarf Tyranitar and Weavile work, or Pokemon that can easily switch into the slower Pokemon that would want to switch-into Mienshao, in order for them to safely receive the Baton Pass boost. Poison Heal Breloom can easily switch into Jellicent and Hippowdon and is deadly with a Swords Dance boost while it doesn't fear anything that Jellicent can do back. Dragon Dance Gyarados, especially offensive variants with Lum Berry appreciate the SD boost and can easily take any move Hippowdon and Jellicent might throw at them while easily OHKOing them at +2.

    We only talk about things that are found in the main sets here so remove this.

    Celebi gets murdered by U-turn and CB doesn't have a main set, so remove Celebi entirely.

    Alakazam is a revenge killer and nothing more. Zam without Focus Sash gets OHKOed by LO HJK and U-turn, while Scarf Mienshao outspeeds and 2HKOes Alakazam with HJK.

    Add Sableye, probably the best counter to any Mienshao variant, that can't even be Pursuit trapped by Tyranitar.

    Tornadus doesn't check Mienshao, as he can barely switch into once, he can only revenge kill, so put him in the list of revenge killers.
  24. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    I'll make sure to implement those changes in the write up. Thanks.
  25. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    O.k alexwolf and I had a chat

    Firstly, hold off on the set order change, QC is still discussing the set order.

    Secondly, you can keep a mention of Spikes in regards to team support for Mienshao (just don't overhype it), you can keep the Gothitelle mention as a partner, since its still a good one and has its draws over Tyranitar, and you can keep CM + Aura Sphere in AC of the BP set.

    I think we agree with everything else alexwolf suggested tho.

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