1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Mienshao (Substitute) [QC 2/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by dice, Mar 11, 2012.

  1. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
    is a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,172
    [​IMG]



    Jellicent's jelly of my stache'.​

    [SET]
    name: Substitute
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Hi Jump Kick
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice
    move 4: Grass Knot / Baton Pass
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Naive / Hasty

    evs: 252 Atk / 32 SpA / 224 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • It uses its lesser used Special Attack to bypass some of its usual counters acting as a lure for opening up sweeps for other sweepers who share the same counters.
    • Substitute shields Mienshao from debilitating statuses, such as Paralysis and Burn that would otherwise cripple the standard Offensive set the whole match.
    • Lures in many Pokemon such as Gliscor, Hippowdon, Jellicent, and Slowbro with HP Ice and Grass Knot, meaning it can open up holes for other fighters sharing those counters, namely Terrakion and Conkeldurr.
    • Substitute eases prediction by scouting your opponent's switch-in, saving you from potentially harming yourself from kicking a Ghost. It also shields you from common priority, like Scizor's Bullet Punch.
    • Can switch into Tyranitar and Sub, turning into a major nuisance for standard Volt-Turn teams, as it hits them HARD.
    • 2HKO's Skarmory after Stealth Rock, meaning it functions as a fantastic Stallbreaker and Wallbreaker.
    • Hazards are needed with this set, so Pokemon that set them up are wanted to gain KO's on certain Pokemon such as Skarmory and Specially Defensive Hippowdon. Deoxys-D and Azelf fulfill this job well as they resist Psychic-type moves.
    • Double Priority Lucario loves being on the same team as this Mienshao, as his counters are completely covered by Mienshao. The same applies to Terrakion.
    • This set works the best on Offensive teams to open holes early. Remember how much Blaziken's LO HJK messed you up?
    • Most bulky Ghosts and Psychics not named Jellicent laugh at this set, so Pursuit'rs like Scizor and Tyranitar are welcome.
    • Mienshao is almost as pro-looking as BKC.
    • Baton Pass can be used to SubPass, a commonly unused strategy allowing one of your sweepers to come in unharmed with momentum on your side, however you lose a coverage move in Grass Knot.


    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Max Attack and enough speed for base 101's (Landorus) is wanted to boost he power of Hi Jump Kick, be speedy, etc. A spread of 252 Atk / 80 SpA / 176 Spe with a +Speed nature can be used for a more of a luring set, though you give you much speed.
    • A mixed spread to always KO Gliscor could be used, but it means Mienshao can't 2HKO Skarmory.
    • An Expert Belt can be used to fake a Choice Item before you use Substitute, as well as not wearing Mienshao down with Substitute + Life Orb damage, but the power given by Life Orb is better on most occasions.
    • Stone Edge can be used over Hidden Power Ice, as it hits Volcarona and uses Mienshao's better Attack stat, but most of the time you'll want to hit Gliscor for your fellow Fighters.
    • The best teammates for this Mienshao are ones that can take on Psychics and Ghosts that plague him. Tyranitar and Scizor are great teammates due to Pursuit. Scizor can also hit Psychic types with U-turn. Another great teammate is Gengar, as he can take on most Psychic / Ghosts as well and spinblocks hazards which Mienshao appreciates.
  2. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,779
    You don't need an overview for an individual set. Try to include that in the set comments. You also need to add a quality control tag.

    Otherwise, I think this looks like a rather good idea.

    edit: You do 30-35% to Gengar with HP Ice, which is not that bad. There are probably other things that wall you harder.
  3. Delko

    Delko
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,237
    I like the idea of Substitute on a Pokemon with Regenerator, it looks like a good set.
    Perhaps mention Baton Pass in AC, passing a free Sub to a teammate is never a bad idea.
  4. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
    is a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,172
    Fixed. And Gengar is the most common one, so I put him.

    Thank you :) And added.
  5. Omicron

    Omicron
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,042
    Chandy actually walls you more, but it isn't as common
  6. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent how lonely is the night without the howl of the wolf
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    3,165
    it seems HP Ice is mainly for Gliscor, who probably won't come in, seeing as HP Ice is standard on Mienshao. I think Baton Pass should be the primary slash, since you can then bring in a pokemon that can set up on it behind a sub
  7. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
    is a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,172
    It's necessary to hit Dragons as well, namely Salamence, Dragonite, Lati@s, etc.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,223
    Reuniclus is the best counter against this set, because you lack U-turn, and can no longer take advantage of him.
  9. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
    is a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,172
    So basically, from comments I've gotten from the IRC and the server, I've rethought the EV's of the set, and I've come up with the following:

    EVs: 252 Atk / 80 SAtk / 176 Spd

    with a Naughty / Lonely nature. This allows for Mienshao to ALWAYS 2HKO Jellicent after Rocks, even if no damaging weather is up, a super boosted Hi Jump Kick, and the ability to outspeed Acrobatics Gliscor. Comments before I implement it? The loss of speed hasn't been very noticable from my testing, as Substitute makes up for the loss of speed. Yes, not being able to outspeed Base 100's and Landorus is a loss, but I enjoy the power of Hi Jump Kick, and the added power of HP Ice and Knot too.
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,223
    With this spread you fail to outspeed quite a bunch of mons including Haxorus, Hydreigon, Volcarona, Mence and Landorus. Even with Sub, i don't think that this is good, because you will be unable to revenge kill said threats now.

    And is HJK gaining any additional KO with the added power? If not, why bother?

    My suggestion is to change to a Naive nature with 224 Spe evs to outspeed Landorus and put the remaining 28 evs to SpA. With those evs you do 44.16 - 52.1% to Jellicent which is a possible ohko after SR, or a sure ohko after SR and SS damage.
  11. asterat

    asterat

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2011
    Messages:
    998
    http://www.faladran.com/search?q=Mienshao
    Also, HJK, is the main attacking move, so put it as move 2. I understand HP ice for gliscor and dragons, but what does grass knot accomplish? Jellicent and starmie? Just isn't eNOugh IMO. I think U-turn or Baton pass are better options. Lots of pokemon that marginally outspeed mienshao are weak to bug so I could see them coming in to break sub and take the hit and then get knocked out by U-turn. (starmie, lati@s, espeon). Most of those guys can sponge HP ices anyways. Also, I could see toxic working as a niche move for bulky waters.
  12. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    This set's main focus is Substitute, with luring physical walls as a secondary purpose, imo. I believe Substitute should be slashed with Grass Knot, since Sub-Passing is an underrated strategy that allows you to bring in your Pokemon safely, maybe even with the Sub intact. There will be times where this Mienshao can't do much against Pokemon like Latias, Gengar, Celebi, and Reuniclus, and rather than being forced out, you can pass a Substitute for protection to its recipient, making it a much better team player.

    Re-name the set name as Substitute, NOT Substitute + 3 Atks

    Stick with the standard spread for now, Princess Bri. Slash Naive before Hasty, though.

    Your alternative EV spread does a much better job at the lure-and-kill strategy, so definitely mention it in AC.

    Under Additional Comments, it is ideal that you offer Teammates that can deal with problematic mons to Mienshao, mainly Ghost (Sableye, Gengar, Chandelure) and Psychic (Reuniclus, Celebi, Latias). These are only suggestions, but mons like Scizor, Gengar, and Infernape can be such examples.

    Good start, Princess Bri!
  13. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,225
    Well, the set seems like a cool idea with Sub + Regenerator. Here is some food for thought.
  14. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
    is a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,172
    bumping with changes for QC approval so I can write it up
  15. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    Just a few more changes:

    • Slash Naive before Hasty
    • Under Additional Comments, it is ideal that you offer Teammates that can deal with problematic mons to Mienshao. Pokemon or tactics that can deal with Ghost-types (Sableye, Gengar) or Psychic-types (Celebi, Reuniclus, Latias) should be presented. When using Sub Mienshao yourself, did you have any particular teammates that deals with such counters? I provided some teammates suggestions on my previous post.
    • Remove +Atk Nature, since Mienshao does not need a boost in Atk to lure-and-kill physical walls with special moves. Plus, with Naive Nature, it can check Adamant Haxorus, Modest Hydreigon, neutral Speed base 100 mons, and Jolly Gliscor.
  16. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
    is a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,172
    fixed upppppp now bumpp
  17. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    here's your first stamp!

    QC Approved (1/3)
  18. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
    is a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,172
    Bumping ...
  19. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,158
    QC APPROVED (2/3)

    BUT ONLY because Mienshao gets Regenerator. There's this annoying trend thats been going around where Pokemon X can use one move and have an entire set dedicated to said move. I have a half a mind to AC it, but i'm going to trust Pocket / your judgement on this one.
  20. dice

    dice infinite bliss flows but does not ebb
    is a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,172
    needs final QC bump
  21. zdrup15

    zdrup15
    is a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,883
    I finally have time to QC stuff again! I tested this today and it did pretty well. Make sure you mention Gengar can not only deal with the Ghost- and Psychic-types that trouble Mienshao but also spinblock, which Mienshao appreciates. After this:

    QC APPROVED 3/3
  22. Gone to the beach

    Gone to the beach

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2012
    Messages:
    83
    EVs: 204 Atk / 80 SAtk / 224 Spe


    Been using these evs which allow for jellicent to always be 2hkoed. Been using this with my choice scarf infernape. These two have formed an unbelievable combo for me knocking huge holes in the enemy. I've been using them with a moxie cs mence to clean.


    I just wanted to point out how much infernape can help as a partner for mienshao.
  23. Fatecrashers

    Fatecrashers acta est fabula
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2007
    Messages:
    4,994

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)