1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Milotic (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Cipher Admin Lovrina, Nov 17, 2010.

  1. Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    2,076
    [​IMG]
    Milotic

    [Overview]

    <p>Milotic moves into the new generation retaining her status as the only bulky, pure Water-type with instant, self-sufficient recovery. Above-average HP, excellent Special Attack, and phenomenal Special Defense allow Milotic to function as a great mixed wall that is also capable of dishing out its own damage. Marvel Scale remains a unique defensive ability that sets Milotic apart from other bulky Water-types as a status absorber or a Sleep Talk user. Despite only a minute increase to its already shallow movepool, Milotic has some new toys to play with in Generation V. Scald is a welcomed asset, burns helping protect Milotic's weaker defensive stat and Dragon Tail gives it much-needed phazing. Since these options are TM-based, Milotic is one of the few Pokemon who can enjoy the generational transition with no detrimental impact. In a chaotic, new world dominated by offense, Milotic establishes itself as a moderate defensive check, not supporting the team so much as disrupting the opponent.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Physically Defensive
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Dragon Tail / Toxic / Haze
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Marvel Scale
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set takes advantage of Milotic’s access to Recover, which frees up an extra moveslot for both offensive and support moves. The defensive EV spread makes the most of Milotic's mixed wall potential, providing her with solid 394 HP and 280+ defenses. Scald and Ice Beam allow Milotic to exercise her robust 100 base Special Attack. Scald's 30% burn chance means that most physical sweepers must be wary of switching in, lest they be crippled. Ice Beam rounds out Milotic's coverage, notable targets including Salamence, Dragonite, and Haxorus. The 4 offensive EVs guarantee Ice Beam's OHKO on Salamence without any defensive investment.</p>

    <p>The choice of support move is at the player’s discretion, each having its own merits; Toxic allows Milotic to make short work of her fellow bulky Water-types and works well with Recover-stalling, whereas Dragon Tail allows Milotic to bounce away setup sweepers and inflict extra damage through entry hazards. It also bypasses Taunt, but unlike Haze, it is liable to miss, albeit rarely, and fails to get rid of opponents behind a Substitute.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Toxic can be used over Ice Beam which would allow Milotic to shuffle status across an opponent's team with Dragon Tail. If one is turned off by the idea of conflicting statuses, then Surf can be used over Scald. However, most opponents will enjoy neither burn nor Toxic, rendering Surf's additional base power an inferior choice. Milotic can fit on both bulky offensive and pure stall teams as both welcome a defensive pivot with the potential to hit back. Entry hazard support is always welcome. Milotic enjoys being part of a Fire/Water/Grass core; Ferrothorn, Roserade, and Erufuun come to mind as worthwhile Grass-type partners, especially with the entry hazard potential of the first two. Heatran and Chandelure are great Fire-type choices as in most cases Milotic can pave the way for their sweep by eliminating enemy Water-types.</p>

    <p>Milotic works wonderfully in tandem with sweepers that fear Ice-, Water-, or Fire-type moves: Latios, Dragonite, Scizor, Lucario and most other Dragon- and Steel-types work as teammates. They allow Milotic to avoid getting into stall wars with the most resilient of walls. With Poison Heal, Gliscor or Breloom can switch in and absorb threatening Toxic and Electric-type moves. Milotic can happily switch into an opponent’s attempts at set-up and status; an activated Marvel Scale gives Milotic the potential to exceed Skarmory’s Defense. Opposing Scalds, the first layer of Toxic Spikes, and Will-O-Wisp all provide optimal opportunities to switch in and grab the defensive boost.</p>

    [SET]
    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Rest
    move 2: Sleep Talk
    move 3: Scald
    move 4: Dragon Tail
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Marvel Scale
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The fabled strategy of RestTalking is definitely still viable on Milotic because she is the only Pokemon that receives a defensive reward for using Rest, through Marvel Scale. Scald, again, is the primary STAB because of its chance to enhance Milotic's walling ability. Dragon Tail finally allows Milotic to join the phazing ranks of Gyarados and Swampert, becoming a team player of sorts as it can hamper opposing efforts to setup or spread status. With Sleep Talk, Dragon Tail loses its negative priority, allowing Milotic to phaze slower opponents before they even have a chance to move. Milotic is a solid choice over Gyarados in this niche because of its lack of Stealth Rock weakness, better Special Defense, the boost from Marvel Scale, and lack of an easily exploitable 4x weakness to Electric-Type moves.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>As with the Recover set, the EV spread and nature give Milotic near-equal defensive stats. While Marvel Scale is inactive, Milotic sits at 394 HP, 282 Defense, and 286 Special Defense. However, after a Rest, Milotic's Defense skyrockets to an incredibly durable 423. It is also of interest to note that the combination of Rest and Scald actually allows Milotic to handle any of the five major statuses and restore itself to full health. An Attack-lowering nature is used because Dragon Tail is being used to phaze rather than as a legitimate attacking option. Before choosing this over Gyarados, one has to consider defenses, damage roll, and burn chance. Marvel Scale also makes Milotic a viable choice over Suicune, but as always, one must weigh the many pros and cons of Dragon Tail vs Roar.</p>

    <p>Entry hazards of all kinds are welcome, although at least two are recommended to make full use of Milotic's phazing powers. One should probably take into account the fact that Toxic Spikes is somewhat counter-productive with Scald, however. As Milotic is still effectively acting as a mixed wall, it's a good idea to have Pokemon in the wings who are entirely focused on one defensive stat, such as Blissey or Snorlax and Hippowdon or Skarmory. Like Jellicent, Milotic has high Special Defense and the power to burn its foes, but the sea serpent isn't Pursuit weak and boasts superior physical defense, even before it is augmented by Rest and Marvel Scale. As Milotic and Jellicent have similar niches, it is recommended that one relies on other spin-blockers such as Spiritomb, Chandelure, or Dusclops.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>With Scald disabling physical sweepers, Milotic can try Mirror Coat to nail Special Attackers as well, For this, a spread focusing on Special Defense is recommended as Milotic needs all the investment it can get to survive and reflect the most powerful of special moves. Light Screen, when combined with Scald, can be used to increase Milotic's overall defenses A Calm nature with 252 HP/200 Defense/56 Special Defense makes a good balance, but Milotic will want to focus most of its EVs on physical Defense this generation to differentiate itself from Jellicent</p>

    <p>Hidden Power Electric and Hidden Power Grass are offensive alternatives to Ice Beam or the support options on the Recover set, but Milotic won't be doing as much damage to its fellow Water-types as it would with Toxic. Hidden Power Fire is another option to deal with Ferrothorn, but doesn't offer many other benefits. A Life Orb set is also a possibility, but difficult to run as although Milotic has great Special Attack, barely better-than-average Speed, a poor offensive movepool and no stat-boosting move leave it to coverage-based tanking at best.</p>

    <p>Magic Coat's increased versatility this generation extends to Milotic as well, although more often than not, Milotic is happy to take a status move. Hypnosis was once a staple on Milotic last generation and it remains a viable option with the sleep counter shenanigans of Gen V, although Scald and Toxic are more consistent options.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>For all of its splendor and bulk, Milotic is easily 2HKOed by powerful Grass- and Electric-type moves. Zapdos, Thundurus, Virizion, Breloom, Celebi, Jolteon, and Lilligant can all counter Milotic quite effectively with their STAB moves, but the majority of them won't like being hit by Ice Beam or badly poisoned. Ferrothorn and Whimsicott make Milotic's life hellish as they can sap massive amounts of health through Leech Seed--Ferrothorn is especially troublesome as it can setup entry hazards. However, Scald can be troublesome as Ferrothorn will be unable to kill Milotic with Power Whip if it's burned. The RestTalker can also outrun it and, should Sleep Talk select Dragon Tail, phaze it before it gets a chance to move. If Milotic switches into either Ferrothorn's Thunder Wave or Whimsicott's Stun Spore, killing her will be much harder. Milotic needs Ice Beam to slay dragons and Grass-types, Toxic to overcome bulky Water-types, and Haze to counter Substitute sweepers. Once you figure out its support move, it's relatively simple to counter appropriately. Jellicent might have a chance if it's running Energy Ball or Toxic against the Recover set while Taunt will only work on the Rest-Talk set. Milotic can easily outspeed Jellicent and use Toxic itself while the jellyfish will find it hard to do any damage back. Tentacruel can easily set up on Milotic, but runs the risk of being stalled to death if it is burned. Additionally, if Tentacruel is used to set up Toxic Spikes, one should be careful of a Milotic switch-in nabbing the Marvel Scale boost on the first layer.</p>

    [Dream World]

    <p>Milotic gets the hopeless Cute Charm—more appropriately Intoxicating Body in Japan—which gives a 30% chance to inflict the Attract status on a member of the opposite gender. Given that Marvel Scale is one of the only reasons to run Milotic and Cute Charm is unlikely to go off unless your opponent runs a single gender team, there is never a good reason to play with this Dream World ability.</p>
  2. Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    2,076
    I need help with this <.<
    I will be adding a Rest-Talk moveset, but need a spread (probably going with 252 HP/240 Defense/16 Speed Calm--recommended by #1 on the leaderboard).
  3. Angelo10

    Angelo10

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Messages:
    10
    Yes i can confirm that this spread is simply the best as it checks almost every thing physically or specially based when played correctly including ulgamoth,zoroark,garchomp,tyranitar,metagross,salamence,dragonite,flygon...(but she must be sleeping).
    I think it should be something like this:
    Sleeping beauty
    @leftovers,calm
    252 hp/240 def/16 spdef
    -rest
    -sleep talk
    -boiling water
    -dragon tail/toxic
    dragon tail makes her an EXELLENT shuffler that is great with SR/spikes(especially with nattorei) and toxic makes her the perfect counter to the jelly fish and other bulky water
  4. Sir Azelf

    Sir Azelf

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    242
    ^+1 for the STalker, that set is amazing. It just doesnt die lol

    Dragon Tail and Haze could do with a mention in AC on the bulky water set too. Milotic is a great PHazer due to its great mixed defenses.
  5. sax king

    sax king

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2010
    Messages:
    769
    I like the LO set. you are bulky enough to tank hits, strong enough to deal damage, and you can heal LO damage

    Milotic @ Life Orb
    252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Def
    --Surf / Boiling Water
    --Ice Beam
    --HP Electric
    --Recover
  6. LostButSeeking

    LostButSeeking

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2010
    Messages:
    11
    To be stupidly nitpickly, Shellos and Staryu both get recover. I'm pretty sure "only fully evolved pure-water type with instantaneous recovery" would be accurate.
  7. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,095
    Throwing in my support for a ResTalk shuffler set. Gyarados is all over the place using a similar build, and Milotic has several advantages over it.

    It lacks a Stealth Rock weakness, for one, which helps it switch in, and Marvel Scale is like a permanent Intimidate. Milotic also has higher special defense, making it somewhat more difficult to take down from that end, while Gyara is less inclined to take, say, Sazandora's Scarf Meteor. Although technically Gyara can use it as well, Boiling Water really helps Milotic out, as a burn could spell the end of any physical sweeper bold enough to try breaking through it.

    Gyara does have several advantages, however, which should obviously be mentioned if the set is included. A fighting resistance always comes in handy, lessening the ability of the likes of Rohpushin and friends to hurt it with STAB attacks, and it has a ground immunity as well. It also packs more power behind its STAB Waterfall than Milotic does with Boiling Water, and Dragon Tail will be doing much more damage as well. Finally, although Intimidate only works once (unlike Milotic's Marvel Scale), it can be useful to reduce the attack of a troublesome Doryuuzu or Landlos to the point where another team member can take it on.
  8. Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    2,076
    Gyarados also enjoys an increase in damage for Dragon Tail... however the Burn Chance and damage from Boiling Water mitigates this plenty.

    To be honest, there's absolutely no point in listing them (didn't do so for the previous generation either) because neither should see the light of day in OU.
  9. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    281
    [size=-4]Mamanbou gets Pain Split, water Arceus gets Recover, hydration Manaphy has Rest.[/size]

    Not only is this not strictly true, but it's not practically true, either. Milotic's niche is and has always been specially-bulky water-type, with instant recovery and status absorption as secondary schticks. It's a bit silly to say that instant recovery is what makes it viable while also suggesting a restalk set, you know? It's not the only Pokemon with this particular role, merely the consensus best at this role in Gen3 and Gen4. That said, Gen5 buffed the alternatives and added new ones while barely touching Milo at all.

    With that in mind, it may be worth discussing why you would or would not use it over similar Pokemon, like Burungeru (Milo can switch in on status and isn't Pursuit weak, but doesn't have all the immunities), Slowking (Milo's bulkier and faster, but doesn't have nearly the movepool or Regeneration), or Hydration Vaporeon (Milo's physically bulkier and doesn't need rain to handle status, but doesn't have nearly the support options). Depending on how much detail you want to go into, there's also Starmie, Gastrodon, Rotom-W, and Manaphy to mention, all of which are specially-bulky water types with instant or near-instant recovery and a similar set of weaknesses as Milo.

    As for the restalk set, what's the big advantage of using restalk Milotic over Suicune? Both sets are complete Taunt-bait because of Sleep Talk, which negates Dragon Tail's main advantage over Roar, but restalk Dragon Tail Milo is also bait for anything with bulky subs. Plus, no Pressure to aid stalling, and Milo has inferior physical bulk while awake. On top of this, Suicune can bluff offensive sets early on, while Milo is obviously always going to be trading on its recovery, bulk, and status absorption.

    Milotic has new enemies in Nattorei, Rotom-W, and rampant Water Absorbers. What's more, it has a whole new crop of competition. The only new tool it has is a phaze ability which can fail against bulky Substitute users. When Milotic was already marginal in Gen4, what's going to bring it up to par for Gen5?
  10. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,095
    Milotic remains as solid as ever, if not moreso this gen thanks to Dragon Tail.

    -It is actually quite possible to say that instant recovery is what makes it viable and then turn around and say the same about ResTalk, because Milotic is the only pokemon who's ResTalk set grants it a defense boost. When this means taking on +2 Jolly Dory's Earthquake and similar attacks with 35ish% to spare at the least, that's definitely an advantage.

    -You've said yourself why you'd use Milo over those pokemon - it is bulkier defensively on both ends compared to Bloongell, also has Recover, ResTalk sets have phazing over it, and it can actually take on ghosts, darks, and Tyranitar (when sleeping). Slowking? When has that ever been competition for Milo with its low defense? If anything, Slowbro is what Milo should be compared to (this gen especially), and Milotic doesn't have the negatives that come with that secondary Psychic typing, not to mention that the speed comes in useful at times (netting the boiling water burn before taking a hit, Recovering sooner, landing that last hit to take down the opponent). Hydration Vaporeon has instant recovery and three attacking slots. The thing is, that is entirely depending on Rain and should you find yourself without weather, Vappy is left without recovery. Not all teams have room for two water types either, meaning that while Vappy might be the best bet on a dedicated rain team, the average balanced / semistall team may see Milotic as more effective. Furthermore, Vaporeon takes physical hits a mere 3% better than 240 / 252 Calm Milotic, with Milo winning while asleep, obviously. It tanks special hits better too thanks to its far superior SpD.

    Basically, Milotic does retain some advantages over those pokemon, probably moreso this generation than last because its best set/niche, ResTalk, is no longer set up fodder. It can't phaze bulky subs isn't really a valid argument because it still has boiling water to attack with (or Surf if that's what you want). I could easily say that Roar Vaporeon or something similar is setup fodder to anything with Taunt - the pros and cons of Dragon Tail vs. Roar/Whirlwind have been discussed. All the new enemies Milotic has, the other bulky waters have as well.
  11. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,158
    The only problem I've had with Milotic is that it's set up bait for Nattorei. Because of this, you might want to mention mention that Milotic should be paired with a Pokemon that is able to spin away Nattorei's spikes, as well as a fighting or fire type that would be able to kill it.
  12. Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    2,076
    Hydration Rest is hardly instant recovery as it requires Rain. Pain Split hardly qualifies as recovery on a Pokemon with like base 160 HP. Water Arceus isn't in OU. Please think before you type! Yea, that's a lovely little rant you've got going on, but I'm really not going to take time out of my busy schedule to address your points.

    I'll be damned if Gastrodon deserves a mention over Milotic.

    Anyway, has anybody considered Hidden Power Fire on Milotic... for Nattorei? Nattorei can always switch in, but I doubt it'll appreciate a Dragon Tail out and if Boiling Water manages to work, then it's effectively neutered!
  13. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,158
    Nattorei doesn't really care about a Dragon Tail out because during that Dragon Tail, it has effectively set up another layer of spikes. While Nattorei doesn't appreciate the burn from Boiling Water, it is still able to set up on Milotic, as Milotic doesn't have the offensive means to break it (HP Fire puts a painful dent in it, though).
  14. Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    2,076
    If you're using Rest-talk Milotic... Dragon Tail has the possibility of outspeeding!

    Anyway, that's why I listed Shandera as a suitable teammate!
  15. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    281
    252/252 Bold Milotic takes 47.6% - 56.5% from 252 atk neutral nature no-LO +2 Doryuuzu's EQ while Marvel Scale is activated, and doesn't OKHO with Surf unless Dory has taken a hit or at least one tick of LO damage. That same Dory will OKHO about half the time if it has a Life Orb and Milo isn't statused. Milo can only revenge, Milo dies to LO Dory unless Marvel Scale is activated, Sleep Talk needs to pick an attack twice in a row, and even if the stars align in Milo's favor it's a coinflip. That's just not practical.

    Marvel Scale/Rest is unique, but it's important to give practical examples of how to use it in the analysis and why these uses make it better than a Pokemon which is physically bulkier all the time. You can't just say "It can do this, it's useful."

    You can only run one set at a time. The standard Boil/Recover/something/something set needs to have some info on why you'd run that instead of Burungeru, Wish Vaporeon, etc.

    ...Slowking has 95/80 physical defenses, compared to Milo's 95/79. Nobody used it over Milotic because Milotic had a better ability, Psychic meant some nasty weaknesses and marginal-at-best STAB, and its extra movepool access was mostly gimmicky stuff. So the Slowking analysis focused on its marginal advantages: setting up (or at least threatening to do so), and working well with/against Trick Room teams.

    Now, things have changed. Slowking got a much better ability from the Dream World. Psychic typing brings Fighting resist, so Slowking resists the most common STAB priority attacks, and brings access to and STAB on Psycho Shock for special tanks and Psychic for Roopushin. Access to fire attacks is a bigger deal because of Nattorei and Genosect, and Water Absorb is more common so Thunderbolt on water-typed attackers is more important, so that movepool matters.

    I'm not saying that Slowking obviates Milotic, but it is now a peer that bears discussion in the analysis, rather than strictly-inferior alternative with only niche uses.

    Eh. Hydration Wish/whatever Vaporeon is better than any Recover Milo on a RD team but that's pretty marginal, huh.

    Anyway, let's talk about Vaporeon in general. At 252/252 +def nature for both, they both take comparable damage on the physical side (Vaporeon is very marginally bulkier), while Vaporeon takes 7% more damage from special attacks. Offensively, Vaporeon hits 10% harder: this is enough to sometimes OKHO Doryuuzu, guaranteeing a revenge kill on LO Dory. They both have an advantageous (albeit different) switch-in, using their ability. Comparing Wish/Protect/Boil/whatever to Recover/Boil/whatever/whatever, Vaporeon gets the ability to set up Wishes and do more damage with its Boil and gives up either the ability to phaze or some coverage.

    And you know what? This hasn't significantly changed from Gen4, where both the Milotic and Vaporeon analyses offered pro and con for choosing one over the other. I'm suggesting that the same be done here, noting changes like the fact that Wishes are now more effective and that Milotic can now phaze as well as Haze.

    Restalk Milotic is still setup fodder for Mischievous Heart taunters, or really any Taunter who switches in on Rest. It's also setup fodder for nearly anyone with Substitute, because if it doesn't break the Sub it doesn't phaze the opponent. Here are some damage calcs for 0 atk Bold Milotic's Dragon Tail on Gen4's subbers:

    • 0/4 neutral Abomasnow: 20.2% - 24%
    • 12/0 neutral Breloom: 23.5% - 28%
    • 236/0 neutral Breloom: 22.2% - 26.3%
    • 252/0 neutral Shaymin: 12.6% - 15.1%
    • 4/0 neutral Shaymin-S: 14.9% - 17.8%

    It only works on extremely frail sub + 3 attackers, like Gengar and Jolteon. Even nonsense like Inconsistent Bibarel can set up on it (252/0 Bibarel takes 20.2% - 24% from Dragon Tail, unless it has a defense drop).

    Now, did you notice how many of those Pokemon normally can't switch in for fear of Ice Beam, something you can't fit into Boil/Rest/Talk/DTail? I'm arguing that the restalk set is a non-starter.

    Here's how restalk Milotic is going to go down. As soon as Milotic uses Rest, if I have a Taunt user, you're screwed. I'm going to stall around until the next time I predict a Rest, get the Taunter in, and ruin your day. Taunt Gyarados can only ruin your Sleep Talking, but Tornadlos/electric genie/Erufuun taunt and set right up. Alternately, I can send in a phazer and phaze you right out, resetting your sleep timer. Even if I don't have a Taunter or phazer, I can play conservative and scout its set, easily doing so because Milotic is not much of a damage-dealing threat. Anything specially bulky which doesn't particularly fear STAB water will do: Nattorei, Blissey, Starmie, Gyarados, pretty much any bulky water, that psychic amoeba thing, etc. Once I know if your second attack is Dragon Tail or Ice Beam, I either send in a really hard-hitting attacker who doesn't fear Boil/Surf (and there are many) or any sub-user bulkier than Breloom to smack Milo around if it has DTail, or I send in any bulky water or water/ice-resistant setup attacker to ruin water/Ice Beam Milo's day. Once something is in that Milo can't deal with, it has to switch out and reset the sleep timer, making Milotic a liability for the rest of the match unless you can remove all the counters.

    tl;dr: Anything that can set up a bulky sub or 2HKO Milotic without getting OHKOed by Boil/Surf is a counter to Rest/Talk/water/DTail, and anything that can set up or 2HKO while not dying to Surf/Ice Beam is a counter to Rest/Talk/water/Ice Beam. Taunters, phazers, Darkrai, and Nattorei counter both.

    Restalk just plain isn't very good now. Even if Dragon Tail weren't a lousy phazing attack on Milotic, the new sleep rules and the plethora of new Taunters would still marginalize restalking as a strategy. I don't know if anyone still can pull off restalk in BW, but Milotic isn't it.

    All the more reason to emphasize why you'd use Milotic instead of one of the others.

    You're damned. Storm Drain now grants water immunity AND a +1 special boost when struck by a water attack.

    Gastrodon has Boil Over/Ice Beam, Recover, Clear Smog/Yawn to haze or phaze, and has comparable physical bulk (<1% difference). It also has better coverage moves in Sludge Wave and STAB Earth Power. It loses special bulk (~20% worse) but gains two immunities, both of which are common from special attackers.

    It'll be just fine with a Dragon Tail out. It resists both Stealth Rock and your un-STAB, 140 attack, 60 base power Dragon Tail and dings you back for 1/8 of your HP. You don't want to use Dragon Tail on Nattorei. You don't really want to sit there smacking it with Boil Over hoping for a burn, since you'll barely outdamage Leftovers and it can almost 2HKO you with Power Whip. (If you took SR damage, it is a 2HKO.) If you have HP Fire, it's a 3HKO, hitting the standard Nattorei for 43.2% - 51.1%. That means full-health Nattorei can get away with switching in on anything but HP Fire and potentially Power Whip you back for the KO if you've taken any damage at all, and even if you switch into it without taking a hit SR damage will let it beat you if it has full health. That's a pretty shaky counter.

    Beyond Nattorei, HP Fire is pretty marginal, and prevents use of HP Electric. It's only a little better than Surf/Boil unless the target resists Surf or is 4x weak to Fire, and Ice Beam already covers most of those more effectively. You only have room for three attacks: Surf/Boil lets you do damage without a SE attack, Ice Beam covers dragons and grasses, HP Fire covers Nattorei and grasses (and Forretress I guess?), HP Electric covers other bulky waters, and Dragon Tail keeps bulky stuff from setting up on you.

    I've run HP Fire on bulky waters, and the results are generally pretty disappointing.
  16. Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    2,076
    I'll take your comments into consideration, but I'm the one writing the analysis here! Like I said, nice little rant, but telling everybody how wrong they are isn't exactly helping the analysis. I wrote the gen 4 OU Milotic analysis, so I've got a pretty good grasp of how to use this thing!
  17. The 1 and Only Lady Gaga

    The 1 and Only Lady Gaga

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2008
    Messages:
    500
    Just a nitpick, I don't think two uses of Boiling Water gives a 55% chance, it's 51%.

    100% - 30% = 70%

    0.3 x 70 = 21%

    30% + 21% = 51%
  18. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    281
    It's disappointing to see civil discussion which merely disagrees with you characterized as a rant.

    Anyway, math time. Max defense (252/252/Bold) is assumed unless stated otherwise.

    Without Marvel Scale +2 Jolly max attack Dory always has a chance to OHKO with Earthquake+SR+sand, even if you go 252/252/Bold. With Marvel Scale activated and Sandstorm up, +2 Jolly max atk Dory will almost always 2HKO, with any residual damage guaranteeing that.

    If you want an EV spread which can revenge Doryuuzu, try Bold 64-0-252-192-0-0. It will always OHKO-with-SR with Surf, while it will never be OHKOed by +2 Jolly Dory's Earthquake without residual damage (besides the Sandstorm) or Life Orb (which Dory rarely runs IME). You do need Surf to pull this off; Boil Over just doesn't have the punch.

    Milotic needs max defensive investment to revenge Dragon Dance or Choice Band Salamence, and cannot revenge LO/CB Overconfidence Mence after a kill. Assuming max defense investment (252/252/Bold), there's a range of possibilities with Mence:
    • +2 LO Mence always cleanly OHKOs without Marvel Scale, and can OHKO even through Marvel Scale with the help of Stealth Rock or a tick of Poison/Burn.
    • +1 CB Mence nearly always OHKOs without Marvel Scale. With Marvel Scale, Mence needs SR and a tick of Poison/Burn to have a chance to OHKO, and even then it'll probably 2HKO.
    • +1 Jolly LO Salamence's Outrage cannot OHKO max defense Milotic without residual damage, but it is very close (83.2% - 98.2%). Even with Marvel Scale and max defensive investment, +1 Jolly LO Mence 2HKOs and outdamages Recover.
    • +1 Jolly Outrage cannot OHKO. It will 2HKO Marvel Scaled Milotic with the help of Poison or Burn, however. The same goes for CB Jolly Outrage.
    • LO Outrage always 2HKOs without Marvel Scale, but as it only barely outdamages Recover+Leftovers it can probably be stalled if you're revenging. It can be walled indefinitely with Marvel Scale, but it can't be switched into if Milotic is poisoned or burned.
    • Jolly Outrage will not outdamage Recover, with or without weather. It can be walled indefinitely and switched into.
    Ice Beam will always OHKO (or always 2HKO with Yache Berry). Dragon Tail does pretty sad damage (19.9% - 23.6% to standard Mence) but forces Salamence out. Haze is only useful when switching into unboosted non-CB Salamence.

    Garchomp works basically the same way as Salamence. The only new circumstance is +2 Outrage with no LO; this can OHKO but probably won't without residual damage; you have even odds to survive even +2 non-LO Outrage+Sandstorm. The only major difference is that Surf will 3HKO (while Boil Over needs burn hax or it never will).

    Milotic can't effectively revenge SD Ononokusu or CB Ononokusu, and can only stop DD Ononokusu's sweep if it has Dragon Tail. The damage calcs are similar to Salamence and Garchomp but nastier, because Ono sometimes runs Adamant. +2 Adamant Ono will always OHKO with Outrage without LO, for example. On top of this, Ice Beam doesn't OHKO without a significant special attack investment. (64-0-252-192-0-0 can't OHKO with Ice Beam; you need even more than that.)

    Gyarados has a wide range of sets, but they all lose to any Milotic but the Restalk version with Ice Beam. Even the most offensive Life Orb set needs two Dragon Dances to 2HKO max defense Milotic with Earthquake or Stone Edge. (For reference, the 64-0-252-192-0-0 set above does almost as well: it survives three hits from non-LO +1 Gyarados and two EQs/SEs from +1 max attack LO Gyarados.) HP Electric, Dragon Tail, or Haze will all prevent Gyarados from accomplishing anything. Note that it takes two hits from HP Electric to KO Gyarados, and with a very bulky build Gyara can take three.

    +2 LO Adamant Lucario will OHKO with Close Combat or 2HKO with pretty much anything else. Even with Marvel Scale in effect, it can always 2HKO, as long as one of those hits is Close Combat. If Marvel Scale is up, Milotic's best move here is Surf; it's a suicide play, but it does enough damage to -1 SDef Lucario to kill after two ticks of Life Orb damage. Without Surf, Dragon Tail, HP Fire, and Boil Over (hoping for a burn) are the best plays in descending order of preference. If Marvel Scale isn't up, Milotic just dies.

    Scizor is Lucario but less so. +2 LO Superpower followed by +1 Bullet Punch will 2HKO, but with Marvel Scale up Superpower followed by Superpower won't even 2HKO. HP Fire will OHKO, Surf and Boil Over 2HKO back.

    Specs Latios hits with Dragon Meteor for 71.8% - 84.8%, and somewhat less with Thunderbolt. Either is a 2HKO. Specs Sazandora is in the same neighborhood. Without Specs or a boosting move, neither of them can outdamage Recover with anything but Thunder. Ice Beam doesn't OHKO either of them back.

    Just some raw data for Milo vs. a bunch of the environment's setup sweepers.
  19. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,095
    LO Jolly Dory is rarely seen these days, with most sets going for balloon, and as I previously stated, Dory isn't going to be setting up to +2 midgame when checks potentially remain and Milotic isn't statused. By the time Dory shows up to the party late-game, Milotic will already be sleeping. But if we assume Jolly LO, Milo came in on the SD, took the Earthquake, and either phazed it out or Surfed it, which is more than enough since Dory doesn't always come in unscathed.

    I agree with this. I am speaking of Milotic from personal experience however - very rarely did the ResTalk set in general fail me and it has saved me from a Dory sweep once or twice if for some reason Gliscor went down. And the fact is, a Milotic analysis is not concerned with other pokemon, it needs to showcase what Milotic is capable of doing best, and I believe this is it.

    I see your point about Slowking, but the two are doing totally different things. Marvel Scale and ResTalk shuffle is far different from Slack Off / Surf / Psychic / Thunder Wave or something similar. I could see it being mentioned in the analysis, but it is largely overshadowed by Slowbro, over which Milo has, again, lack of the disadvantages of the Psychic type (it doesn't lose against Gengar, Shandera, Tyranitar, etc) thanks to its pure Water-typing.

    I apologize if I came off as attacking you; I thought you were asserting Vaporeon to be entirely superior to Milotic. Distinguishing between the two is important for the Recover set, as it is easier to see the difference between the ResTalk vs. Hydration or Wish Vappy.

    All of those grass-types are known checks to Milotic regardless. Ice Beam was hitting those pokemon on the switch last gen anyway, and the same is true of Dragon Tail this gen. I personally am not leaving Milo in on a potential Technician Bullet Seed or LO Seed Flare anytime soon. As far as Mischievous Heart Taunt goes, Gyara has the same issue. Sableye will Recover, Voltolos / Tornelos will just attack, and Erufuun will probably take the opportunity to Leech Seed a defensive Gyara. Notice, however, those 3 Attack + Sub users you mention, against which Milo has an easier time than Gyara due to higher defenses. Gyara's lower defenses mean it is having a much more difficult time vs the likes of Gengar and Jolteon, so its a matter of which set of checks you want the rest of your team to take on.

    As far as ResTalk being unviable...that's untrue, or at least I've found it to be the case. Gyarados and Milotic both work out, IMO.

    We've been over Dory, who Milotic can check in a pinch situation (I'm assuming ResTalk, which IME is its best set), so I'll leave that alone. What is +2 LO Mence, though? DD + Overconfidence? At that point no wall is going to stand in Salamence's way, that should be obvious. You are better off using an offensive check such as ScarfChomp or Latias in that case: DDMence is difficult enough to pull off in the meta regardless. CBMence 2HKOs Max/Max Bold Cresselia, too. I'm not really expecting Milotic to take crazy hits like that, especially when not resisted. There is not much that can take +1 CB Mence's Outrage regardless, so that holds little water as to what Milo can do.

    As far as your other calcs, I think they demonstrate that while Recover + 3 Attacks Milotic is a nice glue to take weaker hits, it isn't meant to take ridiculously powerful attacks on the reg, I've been saying this from the start. That said, I'd argue for the following to be Milotic's main set:

    Milotic@Leftovers
    Calm; 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD

    Rest
    Sleep Talk
    Dragon Tail
    Boil Over / Surf

    Surf is slashed because it helps against various threats - Doryuuzu, Lucario, etc, as you've mentioned. Max/Max Bold isn't that much better than this spread; Lucario still needs to roll absolutely maximum damage to OHKO with +2 LO Adamant CC, so that testifies to its defense. Boil Over helps with burning, obviously, and can catch an unlucky switch in. For the record, SpecsLatios does 75% max with Draco Meteor, so I find this spread more efficient. Not only that, but it capitalizes on one of Milo's advantages over other bulky waters by utilizing its SpD. Unlike the likes of Vaporeon and Suicune (without Roar), it can actually take on Urgamoth with either of Surf and Dragon Tail (the latter being essentially a 2HKO if you can keep rocks down) and other varied special attackers.

    EDIT: As far as the Recover set goes, I'd consider slashing Hypnosis with Toxic. Sleep has been buffed this meta, and Milotic has the bulk to where it can afford a miss or two. It's probably Milotic's best niche compared to the other bulky waters aside from ResTalk.
  20. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    281
    I'm not talking about restalk Milotic compared to Slowking here; I'm talking about Recover+3 Milo compared to Slowking. Much greater emphasis needs to be placed on Marvel Scale in the Recover+3 set(s), because using it to turn into water Skarmory is the only thing Milotic has that you can't get elsewhere.

    Restalk anything is still setup bait. If a restalk set is going to go into the analysis, it really needs to mention this.
  21. Angelo10

    Angelo10

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Messages:
    10
    i have been playing the restalk set so far and beleive me it's doing wonders,sh's just GREAT.
    The new mechanics of sleep are not a let down for the restalk set,it's a GIFT that milotic will remain bulky as hell for more turns.
    Besides,about the taunters you listed milo isn't going to stay and welcome the taunt;just change it!
    About nattorei,pairing milo with espeon HP fire will be exellent.
    @A Man In Black:why do you hate milotic that much???she is just as good as other bulky waters(when played correctly) and beleive when i say this because i've tried them all,each one of them has his niche,his pros and cons and choosing milo is,to me, just a question of taste (for example i'll choose her for being the most beautiful of them) and to be honest i've seen milotic so much more thani've seen suicune this gen.
  22. Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    2,076
    Yea, but this is slightly mitigated by Dragon Tail! Slowking also has abyssmal speed and the Psychic type more than doubles its weaknesses. This analysis needs to focus on Milotics strengths... not "Use Slowking and Burungeru and Vaporeon, etc."

    Does anybody think Hypnosis is viable? What with Sleep being more intense this gen!
  23. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    281
    Try this on for size, in the Recover+3 set or in the intro.

    "While this generation introduced or improved many other bulky waters, Milotic retains a unique advantage in Marvel Scale. After absorbing a status affliction, Milotic has better physical defenses than Skarmory."

    Claiming that it's the only pure water with instant recovery is misleading; Marvel Scale is what really matters, and there are at least six other OU-viable bulky waters who will be running instant or near-instant recovery.

    I've been fooling around with Milo on /tr/ (yeah, I know), and I've found two sets that work decently well.

    Surf
    Ice Beam
    Recover
    Hypnosis / Dragon Tail / Toxic

    I've tried this with both the max def and the 64 HP / 192 SpA spreads. It does a good job of pivoting on scarfers and non-boosting tanks, and if I can switch it in on paralysis it 's Skarmory lite.

    I've experimented with Hypnosis, and the only advantage seems to be its unpredictability. When people have remembered that Milotic gets Hypnosis, I've consistently found people trying to predict the sleep. Having the extra SpA to punish them for doing so has been handy.

    I've used this:

    Boil Over
    Ice Beam
    Recover
    Dragon Tail

    Having too many different statuses is self-defeating. I found that Boil Over burns ended up colliding with poison/sleep too often to make status in the fourth slot useful. This set didn't seem to accomplish as much as the first set, and I questioned why I was using this over Snorlax, Garchomp, Skarmory, or Swampert. It still did a decent job of playing the role of phaze tank, though.
  24. Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    2,076
    I'll take note of the sets, but I know what I'm talking about in reference to Milotic's niche.

    It's not misleading though as Pure Water type with instant recovery is entirely specific. Pure water means no dual-types involved, so Burungeru, Starmie, Gastrodon, or Slowbro etc aren't included. Also, in my 4th gen OU analysis, I established that Instant Recovery refers to healing of 50% that does not require any support. Again, pokemon like Staryu aren't even a tiny bit feasible in physical play... Manaphy and Hydration Vaporeon don't satisfy this title either as they require Rain to be in play. Pure water =/= any bulky water. To the best of my knowledge, Gen 5 brought no new pokemon with Recover that were solely of the Water-Type.

    EV wise, Milotic needs 252 in HP and the rest in the defenses as one sees fit. It's not worth it to invest nearly 200 SPA evs on something that'll probably just outspeed and KO you anyway. Boiling Water and Toxic have been working fine for me--it's really as simple as switch to the other depending on what your opponent sends out. I see this being even less of a problem with Hypnosis because chances are you;re only going to/need to get it off once. There are plenty of Burungeru and Politoed who run double status and they have worse defenses anyway!

    Marvel Scale and Recover are excellent merits, but they by no means have to be used together. Dragon Tail is a necessity on the Sleep Talk set because Milotic won't need to worry about negative priority. This lets it have the potential to phaze some of the slower threats before they can even attack.

    By the end of the week, I will have the Recover and Sleeping Beauty sets posted... Mirror Coat can go to Other Options I assume?
  25. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    281
    I suspect that "unique niche" will be even less important in Gen5 than in Gen4, where Milotic was UU.

    Milotic has the same SpA as Starmie. I don't think a set with more investment in offense is out of place; I'm just not sure what the best tradeoff would be.

    And I've gotten or given away plenty of free switch-ins to a predicted Toxic/Hypnosis from either. Giving away free turns is never a good play. I wouldn't say Toxic is essential at all on the Recover set, especially when running Boil Over, for just that reason.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)