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Milotic

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by trc, Feb 20, 2014.

  1. trc

    trc regal
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    Overview
    ########
    With Defog's use as a tool to remove entry hazards, Pokemon such as Bisharp and Thundurus are often used to switch into the move, giving them a free Attack boost from Defiant. Milotic has a similar purpose, but differentiates itself from Bisharp and Thundurus by means of its ability, Competitive, which gives it a Special Attack boost when one of its stats are lowered. Furthermore, Milotic can beat two of the most common Defog users, Skarmory and Mandibuzz, which are often physically defensive. In addition to from Defog, Milotic can obtain a Competitive boost from Sticky Web and Intimidate, giving it no shortage of options that it can switch in on. Milotic's Life Orb-boosted attacks hit incredibly hard after a boost from Competitive, it has really good special bulk, and it can heal itself reliably with Recover. It isn't all easy for Milotic though, as it relies on teams with Defog, Sticky Web, or Intimidate users, as it doesn't hit hard enough without a boost. This is one of the reasons why Bisharp and Thundurus are more common Defiant users: they are useful on teams even without a boost from their ability. Milotic isn't fast like Thundurus and lacks powerful priority like Bisharp, which makes its few advantages barely stand out.


    Offensive
    ########
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Hydro Pump
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Hidden Power Grass
    move 4: Recover
    ability: Competitive
    item: Life Orb
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Modest / Timid

    Moves
    ========
    Hydro Pump is often the most spammable move; it does a ton of damage at +2 to most neutral foes and is almost guaranteed to OHKO enemies it is super effective against. It punches holes in everything. Ice Beam allows Milotic to hit bulky Grass- and Dragon-types that resist Hydro Pump, such as Latias, Latios, Mega Venusaur (which it 2HKOes after a boost from Competitive), and Dragonite. Hidden Power Grass is the most preferable option in the third slot, as it is Milotic's best option against Azumarill, Rotom-W, and Manaphy; furthermore, it prevents Milotic from being walled by the likes of Vaporeon, Quagsire, and Gastrodon. Recover is one of the reasons why this set is so effective. Milotic can Recover when it is at low health, and with its great bulk, it is a huge pain for the opponent to take down. One can opt to use Hidden Power Fire over Hidden Power Grass for the sole purpose of taking down Ferrothorn, but it doesn't have much use otherwise. Lastly, Dragon Pulse is an option to hit Kyurem-B on the switch as well as after surviving a Fusion Bolt if Milotic is running a max HP spread.

    Set Details
    ========
    Milotic's item of choice is Life Orb, as it boosts Milotic's power while still allowing it to change moves. 252 Special Attack EVs and 252 Speed EVs are standard for a special sweeper, while a Modest nature is used over a Timid one to increase Milotic's power, as the only relevant threats it outspeeds with a Timid nature are Jolly Mamoswine, Jolly Mega Heracross, and Adamant Excadrill. An alternative EV spread of 252 HP / 252 SpA, which should only be used with a Modest nature, allows Milotic to better withstand attacks such as Kyurem-B's Fusion Bolt. It also means that Milotic can switch into Sticky Web to obtain a Competitive boost without its Speed investment becoming redundant. However, with the alternate spread, Milotic fails to outpace Adamant Dragonite, Adamant Mamoswine, and 0 Speed Latias.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    Milotic has to switch into Defog or Intimidate to be powerful, so you must predict carefully; otherwise, Milotic won't be as effective. Ensure that you take advantage of the boost from Competitive through proper prediction, and break through foes with super effective attacks as they switch in. Recover is good for scouting what move an opponent will make as well as replenishing HP when you have the opportunity or when a switch is forced.

    Team Options
    ========
    For the offensively oriented teams that Milotic is on, a great teammate is one that can set up entry hazards, which pressure the opponent into using Defog. A spinblocker is necessary so that Rapid Spin users on the opposing team such as Excadrill and Starmie cannot remove your entry hazards. Aegislash with an Air Balloon is the most famous in a core like this, but other spinblockers such as Trevenant and Sableye work perfectly fine. Pokemon that can get rid of Chansey, Blissey, and Kyurem-B are also essential, as Milotic has trouble with these Pokemon. Terrakion, Keldeo, and Conkeldurr can easily do this, with the former two being great on hyper offense teams and the latter performing better on a bulky offense team.


    Other Options
    ########
    Milotic can adopt a defensive set, but it is a role in which there is much competition. Milotic has little to make it stand out from the likes of Suicune, Vaporeon, Gastrodon, Slowbro, and Slowking. A RestTalk set can allow Milotic to function similarly to Suicune, and works great with Marvel Scale, but Suicune has one major advantage in this role: Calm Mind. While Milotic is rather pressed for moveslots, one can use Haze to put a stop to annoying setup sweepers. Finally, an Assault Vest set with Competitive allows Milotic to tank attacks from the likes of Thundurus and Mega Charizard Y with its insane special bulk, but it lacks the ability to restore health with Recover.


    Checks & Counters
    ########
    **Chansey and Blissey**: Being the insane special walls that they are, Chansey and Blissey can tank any of Milotic's hits, even at +2, wear it down with Toxic, and stall it out with a combination of Wish + Protect, or in some cases, Softboiled.

    **Kyurem-B**: Kyurem-B can OHKO 4 HP Milotic with Fusion Bolt as well as switch in on any attack bar the rare Dragon Pulse. If it comes in after Milotic gains a KO, it can 2HKO 252 HP Milotic with Fusion Bolt and will not mind one attack from Milotic.

    **Thundurus and Thundurus-T**: Thundurus and Thundurus-T can't switch in on Ice Beam, but they can both outspeed and can easily revenge kill Milotic with Thunderbolt.

    **Assault Vest Users**: Assault Vest Raikou performs similarly to Thundurus and Thundurus-T, but it can also tank attacks thanks to its impressive special bulk. Assault Vest Snorlax can take Milotic's attacks well and retaliate with Body Slam. Assault Vest Azumarill performs similarly against an unboosted Milotic, as it can 2HKO Milotic with Play Rough and does not take too much damage from Milotic's attacks.

    **Tentacruel**: Tentacruel walls Milotic exceptionally well, as it takes pittance from any of Milotic's attacks even at +2, and can wear Milotic down with Toxic.

    **Ferrothorn**: Though Ferrothorn must first scout for Hidden Power Fire, it can wall Milotic without the move, making it a relatively safe check.

    **Mega Venusaur**: While Mega Venusaur is 2HKOed by +2 Ice Beam, it can easily wall an unboosted Milotic. Against a boosted Milotic, it can switch in on a Hydro Pump and use Toxic or Leech Seed.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
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  2. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip
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    To be honest, I'm not sure if a defensive set is all that viable. There are plenty of other reliable bulky Waters to choose from, such as Jellicent, Suicune, Vaporeon, and Gastrodon, which I believe all fulfill the role of a defensive Water much better. I guess Milotic does have Dragon Tail, Haze, and Marvel Scale to differentiate itself slightly, but it definitely has a lot of competition. I'm just not sure it's worth using over the other options despite the minor unique traits it has.
  3. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Yeah, Slowbro and Slowking generally outclass her in the bulky water role. The only thing Milotic really has over them is the ability to switch into Gengar and mixed Aegislash fairly comfortably, but even then, she struggles against the periodic Special Defense drops from Shadow Ball. Suicune's more effective as a pure Water anyway, due to its superior physical bulk, and ability to absorb status and function as a win con. It also has access to Roar, which is leagues more reliable than Dragon Tail.

    I'm also skeptical about the viability of the Competitive set. Unlike Bisharp, who is already useful with its STAB Knock Off and Sucker Punch, Milotic absolutely needs the +2 boost to be worth anything. Dragon Pulse is also redundant with Ice Beam for the most part, and her mediocre movepool does not give her many other offensive options, save for Hidden Power.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  4. alexwolf

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    Defensive sets are outclassed, offensive sets are too reliant on switching into Defog, which is unreliable as fuck, so Milotic is not worth it in OU. I am giving you one day to explain something that i may have missed or present some replays, and then i am rejeting it.
  5. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip
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    I only accepted it due to its potential as a bulky offensive Water-type. Competitive is an intriguing ability and can potentially make Milotic hit dangerously hard. I heard decent things from people, so that's why I put it on the reservation list.
  6. Jukain

    Jukain IMANALT SLAYER
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    it's bulky and a good mon to take advantage of defog. it isn't weak with lo hydro pump, it has ice beam and reliable recovery...milotic is a nice pokemon. the point is for it to be used with deoxys instead of bisharp; it has niches, namely being special, that make it worth it.

    basically, competitive is a great ability and milotic hits hard with the boost, and still well without it. it provides some defensive backbone and can last a while if played well. milotic definitely works. the defensive set is outclassed, but the offensive set sure as hell isn't.
  7. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    There must be a better option than Dragon Pulse for the third slot, since it's almost completely redundant with Ice Beam. Hell, even Hypnomiss and HP Fire seem more useful.
  8. Agent Gibbs

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    Your best options for that third slot look to be HP Grass for Rotom-W, Azumarill, Manaphy, etc., HP Fire for Ferrothorn, and HP Flying for Mega Venusaur. But yeah, I agree that the offensive set is pretty decent and has a small niche. If you can bring it in on a Defog or into your opponent's Sticky Web, +2 LO Hydro Pumps really hurt.
  9. trc

    trc regal
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    If you think I should keep working on it then that's fine, I will, but I would ask what the offensive set should be. Dragon Pulse was there because it was part of the set in the reservation thread which Fuzznip accepted the analysis on the basis of. Personally, I think that HP Grass is probably the best option since Milotic can't break through bulky Water-types with Hydro Pump or Ice Beam, but all opinions are welcome.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  10. CyclicCompound

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    This isn't speaking off of experience, but is a defensive RestTalk set viable at all?

    While Milotic lacks a setup move in Calm Mind, its bulk when asleep is actually greater than Suicune thanks to Marvel Scale, and access to Dragon Tail helps prevent stuff from setting up alongside it (one of the biggest problems for CroCune). In addition, it lets Milotic act as less of a late-game sweeper and more of a mid-game phazing unit for defensive teams.

    Besides, in all honesty, if RestTalk Gyarados (which is almost completely identical in function and moves) is getting a full set, I don't see why RestTalk Milotic shouldn't. In fact, I'd argue that Milotic might actually be a little better—you have arguably more control over Marvel Scale than you do Intimidate, especially when it doesn't involve switching in an SR-weak Pokemon to activate.

    Again though, I could be totally wrong—I haven't actually tried this out myself.
  11. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    RestTalk Suicune outclasses RestTalk Milotic because of his significantly higher natural physical bulk and access to Roar. Milotic is reliant on Marvel Scale for its Defense stat to be merely better than average.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
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  12. trc

    trc regal
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    ok I'm on tablet so I won't do this now but
    this is a cool idea. ill test it when I get home. however, if it seems inferior to Suicune, then I'll mention it only in OO.


    I'll put offensive first too since it is the set that the basis of the acceptal of the case was for
  13. PizzaDelivery

    PizzaDelivery

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    I'm glad to see Milotic getting an OU look, I've used it a fair amount this gen and gen5 with decent success.

    Rest Talk is IMO largely outclassed by Suicune for reasons already given.

    Offensive LO with competitive is interesting, will give it a try.

    Defensive is the one I've used most often and I think it's viable in OU, despite it being a crowded field. The closest comparison is Vaporeon who has similar bulk and the same typing, and is often favoured because it can pass wishes. However it is reliant on 2 moves for reliable healing rather than just 1, so if passing Wishes isn't important for your team, Milotic could fill the role better due to its ability to use two support moves. For example:

    Defensive
    ########
    name: Defensive
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Toxic
    move 4: Haze
    ability: Marvel Scale
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    nature: Bold

    Toxic is just as viable as Ice Beam, allowing Milotic to beat other bulky waters and walls. Ice Beam is useful for hitting dragons, but alot of the time it'll struggle to tank a boosted hit from the likes of Dragonite and Garchomp anyway. Haze is surprisingly useful, allowing you to stop certain setup sweepers like Azumarill, Scizor, Mega Mawile, Volcarona, some Calm Mind Latias, as well as eliminating the odd stat drop from a Crunch or Shadow Ball. You can also stop things like Reuniclus/Suicune/Clefable from just slowly boosting up and sweeping your team, though in those cases you need something else to actually kill them, unless you're willing to PP stall for 100 turns. Between Haze and Toxic you can beat a useful number of pokemon 1 v 1.

    Other bulky waters all have their uses, but Slowbro and Jellicent both carry annoying Dark/Ghost weaknesses (and in Slowbros case, mediocre special bulk), Suicune is forced to use rest for recovery, and Gastrodon has significantly worse stats and isn't as relevant as in gen5. I wouldn't make a huge deal out of it, but I think a bulky set should be in there.
  14. alexwolf

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    Ok, offensive Milotic could have a niche, but 81 Speed is fucking bad without any priority, Milotic is very easy to check even after a competitive boost Pokemon such as Mega Venusaur, Chansey, Clefable, Rotom-W, and Ferrothorn. Furthermore, Milotic struggles to switch into Lati@s, the best offensive Defog users, and against teams with more defensive Defog users, such as Mega Scizor or Mandibuzz, more likely than not there is a Pokemon able to wall Milotic even at +2. So, even as an offensive Competitive user, i am questioning a lot Milotic's viability, although i do have to test it for myself.
  15. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip
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    Don't forget Intimidate users, alex. Milotic can easily prevent the likes of Gyarados and Mawile from switching into it to tank a Hydro Pump or Ice Beam or what have you. Also punishes Landorus-T from coming in as death fodder or something. Even though it isn't entirely common, there's Sticky Web that can be taken advantage of while it's in play. I'm not really sure why you are jumping to the conclusion that any team with a Defog Mandibuzz or Scizor can easily tank a +2 Life Orb Milotic, either. Aside from Chansey, not much appreciate switching into a boosted Milotic like it's no problem.
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  16. trc

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    I plan to address the posts above soon, but just so we're clear, defensive is outclassed and can be removed right?
  17. Fuzznip

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    Yes, I don't see a reason to run defensive variants over other bulky Waters.
  18. Colonel M

    Colonel M JESUS BIRD HAS RETURNED
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    Honestly this is the only set I would use in OU:

    Defensive
    ########
    name: Defensive
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Toxic
    move 4: Haze
    ability: Marvel Scale
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    nature: Bold

    Competitive is way too niche - Gyarados won't usually switch into Milotic unless it is the bulky sets - which run either a risk with Haze or burn via Scald. Mega Mawile will not be wasting its time on Milotic - Mega Mawile is too slow before and after Mega Evolution and the burn rate from Scald is too OP. The best option is when Landorus-T sacs itself, Defog users (IMO this should make Ice Beam mandatory) and that is... about it.

    If we are being serious about Milotic - Defensive set only. It has a rare niche in that it can utilize its ability against WoW / Thunder Wave users, Recover reliably, and utilize Haze to prevent mons such as Gyarados and other potential sweepers from setting up. Haze completely wrecks Baton Pass teams which can be a huge advantage over a lot of bulky Water-types. Oh and Toxic for obvious reasons.

    Though outclassed in some ways perhaps, going anything but defensive Milotic seems incredibly situational at best.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
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  19. trc

    trc regal
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    Colonel M Have you tried the competitive set yet? Because he goal of QC is to test whether the sets are worthy of being uploaded to the site or not. Without testing it yourself, you can't just theorymon whether it is good or not. I've being doing a bit of testing with the offensive set recently, not so much as I've been doing a bit of stuff with Gothitelle as well, but still a fair bit, and it's actually been working surprisingly well. I encourage you to try it just functioning as like jukain said, a special Bisharp, and see how much damage a +2 Milotic can do. Also, it's mediocre Speed is barely a problem with such impressive special bulk and an ability that benefits from being statused. Everyone though CritDra was bad until they tried it (obviously I'm not comparing the two, but you get the point).
  20. PizzaDelivery

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    In a similar vein, have you tried defensive before deciding it's outclassed? I'd wager most of those rejecting it haven't. It has a fairly narrow niche but that niche is there.
  21. Colonel M

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    Very well. I will test it tomorrow and retract my rejection.
  22. Swamp Link

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    In my experience, the offensive set is better off running Max Spe than Max HP. 81 is a decent speed tier, and running Max Spe with Modest lets you outrun stuff like Dragonite, Mamoswine, Rotom-W, bulky Landorus-T, Jolly Tyranitar, most Gliscor, and other stuff. A Max HP spread is still usable and should be mentioned, but I think Max Spe is just better.
  23. gamer boy

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    I agree with Swamp Link there. The ability to outpace Dragonite, Mamoswin, Rotom-W and jolly Tyranitar is too important for Milotic as the offensive set is designed check things that it wouldn't otherwise, most notably Rotom-Wash out of that list, and the ability to outpace Gliscor after switching in on a defog is tremendous, followed by an OHKO with Ice Beam.

    Also I'd say that a defensive set is definitely viable for the reasons stated by PizzaDelivery. Also, using Gliscor as an example again, this lets Milotic play mind games this gen with Competitive Milotic being a thing now, so that people are cautious about letting their Gliscor use Toxic in case of the Marvel Scale, but worrying about Competitive: putting them off using Defog in case of the boost.
  24. trc

    trc regal
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    Ok, I plan to update this soon, but I'd like to say that I've tried the defensive set, and it isn't bad, but it is generally inferior to Vaporeon, Suicune, Slowbro, Jellicent, Slowking, and Gastrodon.
  25. PizzaDelivery

    PizzaDelivery

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    Well tbh I saw you as one of the few people giving the defensive set the time of day, heh.

    Maybe max speed is possible on the offensive set, though you're sacrificing a good amount of bulk while still not really being able to sweep. My instrict would be to play it as more of a hard-hitting tank that can take a few hits and sustain itself if needed, possibly running just enough speed to outrun min-speed Rotom, which is a common enough sight on the ladder. Still untested by me, though.

    Even with Marvel Scale, defensive Milotic doesn't want to be eating Toxic from anything, really - SubToxic Gliscor can just stall endlessly until you die. Marvel Scale mainly makes burn and paralysis less of an issue, but even so the Milotic player shouldn't fall into the trap of switching into status casually, especially if something else on the team can absorb it instead.

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