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"Minimize Prediction": UU team utilizing Golurk. Went 19-0-1 after testing

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by fhugwigads, Aug 13, 2013.

  1. fhugwigads

    fhugwigads

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Messages:
    8
    Minimize Prediction
    UU Balance team

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    I'd first like to say that I've been battling competitively online for around 2 years now and I've only just activated a smogon account. My best metagame is certainly UU and I'm sharing this team not only because it was quite successful and I'd love to improve it, but because I believe it is a great team for beginners to use as they get involved in competitive battling or the UU metagame because it has played very easily for me due to the strong defensive core. I hope any newcomers won't hesitate to try the team out.

    This team was one of my first attempts into the world of balance/stall in UU and one of my all time most successful, winning 19 battles and drawing one on the suspect ladder.

    Screen Shot 2013-08-01 at 5.48.08 PM.png
    After laddering some more and playing some good players, however, this great record went slightly downhill (around 5 to 1 win-loss ratio). I am incredibly open to altering the team, but am having have a lot of trouble filling the spots. Hopefully some of you can help me, I know there are some great raters on the site!


    The Team

    Team Goal:
    The objective with this team is not to sweep, but rather to clean up after hazards have taken their toll. I would like to emphasize that offensive pokemon do have sweeping sets, but I find them more effective at creating holes in the opponents team (raikou) or surprising opposing threats (honchkrow).

    Sets and Explanation:

    [​IMG]
    Honchkrow @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Jolly Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Night Slash
    - Superpower
    - Sucker Punch
    Honchkrow (surprise scarf factor)
    As I said I usually don't run balance and as such the original idea for the team was to sweep with scarfkrow with moxie. I realized however that with this team honchkrow works way better at surprising offensive threats by outspeeding them. For example: unscarfed Mienshao and Heracross will often fall to honchkrow because they will expect it to outspeed and think they can survive a sucker punch. The same goes for the opponent's pesky weavile who opts for ice punch not predicting scarf. Further, honckrow is a great pokemon for forcing switches (a trend on the team) which helps abuse hazard damage. Sucker punch may look weird, but honestly you won't use anything you put in that spot anyway and the priority can be good to defeat scarfers and really mess with opponents once you reveal you're scarfed. Honchkrow probably has the most games where he puts in little work so I am entirely open to replacing him (perhaps another uncommon scarfer with more longentivity).

    [​IMG]
    Raikou @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Raikou (standard.threat)
    As every seasoned ladder player knows, sub-cm raikou is a huge threat to many teams and that's why it's here, along with decent offesive synergy with honchkrow (damn you roar zapdos). However it's value is usually in poking enough of a hole in things to make them useless after one or two more switch ins. I rarely go for a sweep, but instead set up a sub and get a couple of hits on the switch in, making it more and more susceptible to hazards. The hazard damage on the check is often more important that killing the current pokemon. It's is also a great non-scarfed revenge killer with its killer 115 base speed. Raikou could also be replaced because it contributes to an overall problem with well-supported umbreon.

    [​IMG]
    Hitmontop (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Close Combat
    - Toxic
    - Sucker Punch
    Hitmontop (intimidate, toxic, spin; in that order)
    The following four pokemon are all part of what I have found to be an incredibly effective defensive core of my own creation (hopefully no one else has used this). Hitmontop's rolls have been presented in order of importance on this team. The dual intimidate core proves effective against the myriad of physical threats in UU. So much so that I normally find spinning to be a secondary or third-ary (tertiary?) goal. More often, I use hitmontop to come in on something like physical verizion or scarf darmanitan (they often EQ predicting qwilfish), toxic a ghost or special attacking poke on the switch, and proceed to wall it with umbreon. I also really appreciate having a poke with close combat in the current UU met to force umbreon out.

    [​IMG]
    Golurk @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Fist
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Punch
    - Shadow Punch

    Golurk (set up rocks/hit hard, spinblock; in that order)
    Golurk made its way on to the team because it fit all the roles I wanted and more. I don't see why it's not more used. If you need a spinblocker, rocks setter, heracross check, and electric immunity, look no further than golurk. While spinblocking is incredibly important on this team, I often save this job for midgame, as too many spinners predict ghosts early game. For this reason, umbreon has great synergy with golurk as it can take the obvious toxic, synchronize it (and heal bell off later), and later give golurk a free switch-in after the familiar close combat on umreon that comes after you take advantage of an "overprediction." Fire punch makes golurk a great switch in to heracross if you believe they won't night slash, as the appealing megahorn 3HKO is avoided as fire punch OHKO's after rocks. It is the only fire move on this team however and this has proven frustrating when facing ferroseed.

    [​IMG]
    Umbreon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
    Calm Nature
    - Wish
    - Foul Play
    - Heal Bell
    - Protect

    Umbreon (Team-Goddamned-Player)
    Umbreon is just one of those all-around amazing pokemon that can be a great check/counter as well as a win condition. I end many games walling 3 or so weakened pokemon with umbreon and finishing them off with foul play. Umbreon's stellar special defense allows it to take the whole of the special attacking pressure for the team, with room to spare for wish passing and heal belling, which is the reason pokemon like golurk and qwilfish can go from good to great. Allowing golurk to get burned or take a reasonable hit while he sets up rocks is no longer debilitating and that's the true value of umbreon. It really puts the team on it's back. Umbreon does however have a lot of pressure in that both its support and special bulk are often crucial to victory. Loosing umbreon can often lead to loosing the battle. I believe this is one of the things keeping this team from being a top-ten ladder team, in that untimely crits can turn a battle.


    Qwilfish @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 56 Spd / 252 HP / 200 Def
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Thunder Wave
    - Pain Split
    - Waterfall

    Qwilfish (intimidate, lay spikes, paralyze)
    Qwilfish rounds out the dual intimidate core as my check to fighting types. Running two intimidators with wish and heal bell support makes it very difficult for the opponent to break my defensive core with a physical attacker. Qwilfish is also my spike layer for the team, and accomplishes this goal well due to the amount of switches it causes. Thunder wave is a somewhat rare option that I find useful in surprising raikou or other attackers that switch in to qwilfish. I'm considering replacing t-wave or pain split with toxic spikes however, as I feel they would have won me a couple of battles.

    Overview
    Strengths
    The strength of this team is in the defensive core of golurk, hitmontop, qwilfish, and umbreon. Together they can wall a large amount of teams by themselves as well spinblock, lay spikes, and set stealth rocks. The efficiency of this defensive core allows the team to often play like a stall team that has the ability to bring in a speedy threat. Because of the strength of the core, many standard teams fall without me having to predict, which I believe makes the team good.

    If the opponent brings in a heracross on my umbreon, I have a couple options. I could bring in my check in qwilfish and begin to set up spikes, or switch to golurk if I feel the opponent is frutrated enough to Close combat. Either way, both pokemon can do something effective once in (big hit or lay spikes) and neither can be KO'd by standard heracross so I feel safe in going to whichever pokemon seems more advantageous. When playing a good player, this strategy won't work as they'll just double switch, but if you can manage to get up your hazards, double switching usually ends up worse for the opponent.


    Issues
    The first and main issue with this team is that the core is heavily dependent upon umbreon for both wish support and cleric support and if umbreon goes down, the battle becomes much tougher. For this reason the team has issues with pokemon that run mixed sets or anything that can lure in and kill umbreon. The main threat is victini's special set that runs v-create as well. It forces me to predict which set it's running and that can run into problems. special victini is mostly walled by umbreon, but an unexpected v-create can do enough to render umbreon useless. The biggest threat to the team is without a doubt medicham. medicham destroys the core with it's STAB moves after just a little chip damage on golurk. Banded flygon can also be an issue and I also imagine mixed verizion would be an issue although I haven't run into it on the ladder.

    The second problem is that I feel my core allows for two more members and that I'm wasting these slots with raikou and honchkrow. They've done very well and won me many games, but I feel the slots could be better used. I've considered mixed victini or virizion in raikou's place, but I'm worried I would miss the speed. I've considered going full on stall, but I don't know if i'm up to playing a ton of 50 turn games.

    tl;dr
    I really like this team and I think it could be a great ladder team with a little improvement. I'm overly weak to mixed pokemon that can lure and kill umbreon, and I would like to take better advantage of the two slots that my defensive core leaves available (raikou and umbreon)


    Thanks for reading ! Any and all criticisms/suggestions are welcome !
    scotti likes this.
  2. fhugwigads

    fhugwigads

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Messages:
    8
    Thanks a lot for the quick rate! That's a great suggestion. I always have trouble against bulky zapdos and I think this is a great team to try it out on, plus having another poke with reliable recovery would be helpful. I'm worried the team might head in the direction of full stall once i try this out, but if that's what will be successful, so be it. Thanks again!
  3. GenXXZ

    GenXXZ

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    281
    Hey, this is a pretty nice looking UU team that I'd be absolutely happy to rate! :)

    First off, I like that you're running Choice Scarf Honchkrow. I believe it can also be an effective set at times, however I would run either Drill Peck or HP Grass instead of Sucker Punch. Being locked into Sucker Punch is in all honesty a terrible idea, as you will eventually lose all gained momentum that Honchkrow gives you when you are forced to switch. Drill Peck is a safer option than Brave Bird that lets you reliably finish off weakened teams without having to worry about death by recoil. Hidden Power Grass in an interesting option that will net you a surprise 2HKO on Rhyperior, just note that variants of Honchkrow that run HP Grass should run Naive instead of Jolly for obvious reasons.

    One thing I notice about this team, specifically the defensive core, is that it is extremely reliant on Umbreon as a specially defensive wall and cleric. The pressure on Umbreon needs to be relieved in order for the core to function better.
    What I recommend doing is replacing Qwilfish with Spikes Roserade. Roserade is a pretty good check to unboosted special attackers AND it has reliable recovery, two things that will keep the team from being too dependent on Umbreon. Roserade will also give you a check to Swampert and Rhyperior, which are two Pokemon that could give this team some trouble. I'm not denying that Qwilfish can be an incredible counter to the popular fighting types in the tier, but you already have Golurk on the team which hard counters both Mienshao and Heracross with ease, so I think it's safe to say the Qwilfish can go. You'll lose paralysis support, however your offensive core consists of a Scarfed Honchkrow and Raikou, so paralysis isn't as required.

    One last thing. Hitmontop should not have Sucker Punch... It's honestly a pretty weak move on Hitmontop that will often fail to revenge kill threats due to how little damage it does. Try Foresight instead of Sucker Punch. This team absolutely needs hazards to be off the field at all times and getting spinblocked isn't an option. Foresight can hit the predicted ghost switch in, which will make the opponent lose a ton of momentum. It's also really good for checking Sableye, who is just generally annoying to any team and I think you'll appreciate it.


    That's it from me! Good luck.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  4. Moose V

    Moose V

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2012
    Messages:
    540
    Nice team! It looks pretty well rounded but I see a couple good areas for improvement.

    1) I'm gonna come right out and say there's no room in the current UU metagame for Scarfed honchkrow. As a scarfed moxie sweeper, it's heavily outclassed by heracross and krook, it's speed is such that non scarfed crobat can outspeed it and the move that makes normal honchkrow successful, sucker punch, now just allows everything to set up on it. I suggest changing Choice Scarf to Life Orb and changing Night Slash to Roost or Pursuit. Pursuit may be the better option to pick off specs chandelure which can 2HKO your entire team with fire blast.

    2) Your team looks a little weak to froslass dual ghost type teams, as hazards wear this team down a lot and a ghost type's presence means hitmontop can't spin. To beat froslass, I'd change Fire Punch to Magic Coat on Golurk. You may also consider replacing a move on hitmontop with foresight.

    3) Give umbreon 0 Attack IVs and Raikou 2 attack IVs. This is to minimize foul play/confusion damage.

    4) For a stall team, you have no phazer. This is a problem as something like venomoth can quiver pass all it wants. Also, a phazer would allow you to rack up entry hazard damage on your opponent.

    5) You also seem to have a bit of a bisharp problem as both of your main physical walls give it a free +1 boost. Said pahzer would help with this. The trouble is, it would take reworking your whole team to fit a phazer in so I guess I'm just saying this as something you should consider.

    6) I agree that raikou could be replaced. Since yanmega gives your main special wall some trouble, I'd replace Raikou with Zapdos to check mega. What set you choose to run is your choice.
  5. Volty

    Volty

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Messages:
    373
    A few things, I'd use Defensive suicune (Roar not calm mind) So you have a reliable phazer since imo all stall teams need one. Also use Specialy defensive spikes roserade with leech seed. That thing is such a big help to stall teams wearing them down faster then ever. Also make the raiko to zapdos change people are sugesting.
  6. Kitten Milk

    Kitten Milk pink hair don't care
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    831
    As much as I enjoy dual intimidate cores, I just feel like hitmontop isn't doing too much for this team. The fact remains that you don't really require rapid spin all too much, the only thing that's weak to it is your Honchkrow, and you have a fair number of resistances as well (that said, if you switch to Zapdos you would have two...). I just think it's something to keep in mind, and I see a lot of things being more useful in that spot. Perhaps a Banded Victini, a Banded Heracross, or even a LO Shao? Play around with it, I feel like you should really have a nice strong wallbreaker, and it would give you another win condition other than the shaky Honchkrow sweep (I'm not sold on that scarfkrow either, but I'll let it slide ;))

    Finally, for the specific Zapdos set, I imagine something like Roar - Toxic - Thunderbolt - Roost might be what you're looking for, with mostly SpD EVs.

    Good team though, and nice ranking :)
  7. Patrick1088

    Patrick1088

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2013
    Messages:
    689
    Hey there cool team you have there! Congratz on the peak! I have a few nitpicks though...
    1. Have you tried resttalk snorlax in place of umbreon? You have all of these hazards but no shuffler. Resttalk lax is veru bulky and can handle mixed victimi sets easier than umbreon thankz to thick fat and its immense bulk. The paralysis from body slam also helps your scarfkrow beat baster scarfed foes.
    2. I think that your team would benefit more from offensive zapdo as opposed to subcm raikou. You lose the speed but zapdoz can clean up very nicely end game with just tbolt hp grass and heatwave with no setup. Just a personal preference since zapdos is more threatening thanks to its decent bulk good typing and access to roost. Zapdos rock and ice weakness will be covered by lax and golurk easily. Personal preference though!

    Other than that good team!
  8. Aecor

    Aecor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2012
    Messages:
    186
    Nice Peak.

    I really think you should not use a Scarfed Honk. Sure, it has surprise value, but it's extremely ineffective in this current Meta. Heracross and Mienshao are more likely than not going to be scarfed. For the most part, just a little bit of residual damage will make it possible to OHK you with the appropriate move, Close Combat and HJK. The only reason to use Honk in the UU meta is access to Moxie and Priority. For that reason and that reason alone, I would suggest either the SubRoost Honk with Sub, Roost, Sucker Punch, and Brave Bird--or an all out attacking set with Brave Bird, Sucker Punch, Superpower and HP Grass or Heat Wave.

    Hitmontop doesn't do your team much good, seeing as it is 2HK'd by any physical booster or hard hitter. Choice Banded Crobat OHKs Hitmontop with only a bit of residual damage, after intimidate. If you want a sturdy wall, opt for Suicine or Blastoise. If you want utility, throw in Crobat instead of Hitmontop. With access to a fast taunt, you should be able to prevent rocks up on your side anyways.
  9. Psychotic

    Psychotic Foulest thing about time; it still ticks when you gone
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    613
    Sup fhugwigdas, I have a few suggestions for your team,

    Moveset Suggestions:
    I am agreeing with what various people have said about Choice Scarf Honchkrow being a pretty terrible choice. Being setup bait for Raikou, most stealth rockers, and Bulky waters is not a good thing in this meta, and a choiced Sucker Punch often means you lose to a sweeper who sets up after you revenge. Raikou is dangerous enough to your team as it is, using a choiced Honchkrow just compounds that. Instead, you should use a similar 4 Attack Honchkrow with Life Orb. This set means you don't become setup fodder every time you use Sucker Punch. Using max speed makes it into a stallbreaker as well, which your team could really use to break through things like Suicune and Slowbro. Also, using this Honchkrow set allows you to pursuit trap ghosts, letting Hitmontop spin freely. You should also really run Taunt over Pain Split on Qwilfish. I think this moveslot is better filled with something that prevents Scrafty, Kingdra, Cobalion, and Ferroseed from setting up if your team has been weakened, since you already have Wish Support to keep Qwilfish healthy.

    Suggested Changes:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Show Hide
    Honchkrow @ Life Orb
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Night Slash
    - Superpower
    - Sucker Punch

    Qwilfish @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 56 Spd / 252 HP / 200 Def
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Thunder Wave
    - Taunt
    - Waterfall

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