1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Minor Character Mafia postgame

Discussion in 'Circus Maximus' started by Fishin, Sep 19, 2009.

  1. Fishin

    Fishin
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2005
    Messages:
    2,660
    Welcome to the postgame. Here I'll be posting all the role PMs free of snips, and giving my insights on the game. Players won't have numerical scores since I honestly don't think it's possible to accurately sum up everyone's contributions to the game in a number (and because I don't know absolutely everything that went on).

    The night action spreadsheet is here, should you wish to view it.


    Indifferent:


    The village, with 13 members. They had a lot of power if they planned and communicated well, but were also more prone than usual to moling thanks to the unusual inspection system, the fact that mafia had role safeclaims, and the open theme. To be honest, most of them played horribly, leading to a very fast downwards spiral (a godkill Night 0, a villager lynched Day 1, another villager godkilled Day 2). You could say that this was partially my fault as far as balancing players went, since blue_light was the only really experienced player on the village side, though many had played a few games before at least.

    Got a lynch directed at him Day 1, and when he made a post defending himself...he deleted it because LonelyNess asked him to. He didn't actually die since he had the Flashbang Grenade when he was lynched, which I forgot about initially (I changed it to something that caused him to fake his death if lynched and come back later by posting a specific phrase in the thread to keep the numbers fair), but it still wasted the village's time when there was another certain mafia target, driving another nail into their coffin. After his fake death he worked on items but never got a chance to use them.


    Originally I was going to go with a Watson & Holmes type inspector duo with the second person getting alliance checking powers if the main inspector died, but I decided later to go with inspectors that could only inspect one faction. supermarth64 could only inspect Loved, any other target gave no results. This was supposed to make it harder to trust people since you couldn't actually clean anyone...but both he and GTS died Night 0, so it never came into play.

    Counterpart to Hughes, could only inspect Hateful, but he died before he could do anything. Interestingly enough, both the village inspectors were not only targeting the correct mafia faction the night they died, but both got killed by the exact same faction.

    The village vigilante. I liked his "marking" kill system a lot (and it prevented him from doubling up on kills using the Ring Soul's ability, though he could still effectively get half a kill extra from it). He did kill an important mafia member and managed to survive until the very end of the game, but then killed moi who was pretty much harmless at that point.

    Essentially, he could let someone use their night role twice on odd nights only, though the vigilante could only get half a kill out of it instead of a full one. Used his role on blue_light, which was a good decision, but then got killed soon after.

    To help with the village's unusual information gathering system, I decided to give them a third role that could possibly find mafia. He actually managed to catch mafia members killing both Night 0 AND Night 1 and report it to blue_light, which is probably the best he could've done given the circumstances.

    The role that should've been in Zelda mafia. Got godkilled Night 0 without doing anything. Oh well.

    I liked this role a lot, though it might have made more sense the mafia to have. One of the better villagers. He got to use both his items (he gave the Super Mushroom to blue_light, though he died before eating it, and the Poison Mushroom to lanterminator, who ate it, indirectly causing the death of Jimbo).

    Constantly protected blue_light, which wasn't that bad of a decision until blue_light died...and he didn't change targets. Evidently wasn't paying much attention to the game.

    One of the village's stronger roles. The delay was imposed so that he couldn't use his ability as soon as possible to prove himself and then ask for claims afterwards and to give the mafia a fair chance to eliminate it before it was used. Chose to idle the first night he could use his power, which wasn't a terrible decision, though it hardly mattered since the village was already dead at that point.

    This was a role I liked, a different take on the standard martyr. Instead of avoiding killers and trying to martyr things like hookers or bgs, the best thing he could do was to try to get killed, since he was fated to die anyways. Unfortunately, Sidd was almost completely useless, idling three out of the four nights he had to act and then claiming he was going to be active when I PMed him. Probably should've been godsubbed out, but since he was going to die anyways I didn't bother.

    Probably the only competent player on the village. He played well (though he probably should've PMed Xyphang during the Day 1 lynch), but got removed early thanks to the stupidity of his team.



    This was a role that was there to be an extra vote and little else (originally it was just going to be that owl thing from Zelda mafia nearly copy/pasted), though the information could be useful since the amount of mafia on each team wasn't shown when they died like in some other games. timw06 didn't share his info or even talk to anyone, though he did at least vote.


    Loved:

    Both mafia groups had a commonly known village role that they could safely claim in order to make it easier to mole (mayor in the case of the Loved). Both groups also had a way of anonymously sending a message (Announcement for the Loved and the Communicator for the Hateful). Of the two mafia groups, the Loved were more focused on controlling the lynch, with 5 members, a silencer, and a mayor/secret vote. Their kill was weaker (they had two people that were vulnerable to hooking/tracking, and it changed to every other night kills if Excalibur died). Their abilities in general were weaker than the Hateful, though.

    The Loved were actually fairly proactive about getting false claims ready, but LonelyNess, their player who had the best chance of moling, got inspected by the Hateful and exposed Day 1 (though he somehow managed to divert the lynch away from himself Day 1 and forced yet another villager to get godkilled Day 2). After that, most of the Loved were unable to force suspicion on the Hateful instead of themselves, were exposed, and either killed at night or lynched.

    Got inspected by the Hateful NIght 0, but managed to turn the lynch towards the idiotic Xyphang instead of himself. Even though he was the obvious target on Day 2, he was able to use his announcement power to turn the lynch towards blue_light, though this was more thanks to the stupidity of the village than anything. Played about as well as he could have, either way, except for maybe claiming more aggressively.
    Excalibur was actually the very first character I had in mind when doing this mafia. If he died, their team would be reduced to killing every other night. Jimbo had an okay false claim, but got found out quickly anyways thanks to Mr Goodbar's ability, and was killed by macle.

    Putting the names of allies in a separate PM was a safeguard to prevent me from accidentally pasting a whole team when a mafia member died, and also gave me something to <snip> out in every mafia PM to make stealing from dead players more difficult.
    This role was mainly there to guard Excalibur. lanterminator screwed this up by eating a mushroom he didn't know anything about (which turned out to be poisonous) on the same night that Jimbo got targeted.
    Didn't manage to steal anything but a Rock. Not a whole lot else to say, though he did add some small credibility to the lynching of blue_light.


    Sat around silencing blue_light, which was one of the things that lead to the collapse of the village, and then Kumar later. Not much else to say, though he did survive till the end of the game.




    Hateful:

    The Hateful had less members than the Loved (and rogue was arguably a weaker claim than mayor), but they had better killing power and more versatility, since each of their members could kill and got some sort of bonus effect on kills. Kumar was able to mole the village and none of their members were ever even targeted for nightkills kills or lynches, which led to a pretty fast victory.

    Also, this team had by far the most obscure characters.

    Didn't claim as far as I could tell, though that never hurt him. Continually guarded thunda, which was probably the best choice, and made good use of his bonus kill.
    thunda got caught killing Night 1...and the village never bothered to do anything about it. He performed most of his team's kills, which left a lot of people wondering exactly what caused it the first time it happened and theorizing about a wolf, and kept information from the other two factions. Other than that, played a good game and used his abilities well, and his false claim was solid.

    Kumar, the man with a Rock. His false claim was extremely creative but somewhat questionable (Pippin from LotR isn't what I'd call a minor character), but he was actually the most trusted person at the time of blue_light's death, though the village wasn't very organized anyways. Never killed anyone, though.

    Also, I was secretly hoping for whoever got the Rock to claim the one character from Peanuts (Pigpen?) who always gets a Rock instead of Halloween candy, but it never happened.


    Came up with a really bad false claim (a neutral that had to kill one of each team), but never got lynched. His redirection of blue_light's hook to LonelyNess Night 0 ended up preventing any announcement from being posted Day 1, which actually may have helped the Loved more than it hurt them (LN was planning to make a tracker-style announcement post and state that both blue_light and Jimbo targeted GTS during the night, when another tracker existed). Aside from that, he just redirected Sidd (who was thought to be some sort of bodyguard) to Kumar, which never really affected anything.

    The Communicator was used to talk to LN a couple of times early, but ignored later on.


    Neutral:

    I wasn't really sure if I wanted to put a wolf in or not, but in the end I decided to just use a neutral that hurts other teams without actually killing them. Anyways, moi didn't do much. He tried stealing abilities from Kumar, which was a good guess, and lanterminator, which wasn't (and rather ironically idled Night 0), but never managed to get anything.

    In case anyone was wondering, the users he could successfully ability steal from were:

    Thief: Knightofthewind, Bass, Xyrem Aether G
    Silencer: matty, askaninjask
    Inspection/tracker: GTS, supermarth64, thunda, Mr_Goodbar







    Awards:



    Best Indifferent: blue_light. Made a few mistakes like not PMing Xyphang instead of just waiting for him to post and trusting Kumar, but he did suspect both Jimbo and thunda even before they were confirmed as mafia.

    Best Loved: LonelyNess. Turned the lynch away from himself not once, but twice, even after it was revealed he was mafia, and provided several false claims to his team.

    Best Hateful: thunda. Did most of the planning for his team, made good use of his abilities, and had probably the best false claim. Kumar did a good job of moling as well.

    Biggest Spammer: LonelyNess.
    [​IMG]

    Most creative claim: Kumar. Pretending the Rock was an actual item (a Palantir) that just appeared as a Rock to everyone else wasn't something I hadn't even considered.

    Worst Player: Xyphang. When someone is falsely accusing you, and asks you to delete your argument that proves your innocence, you don't listen to them. Honorable mention to any villagers that voted blue_light, lanterminator for eating that mushroom, Sidd, and Knightofthewind.


    Once again, congratulations to the winners, the Hateful!
  2. matty

    matty I did stuff along time ago
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    290
    GG but it was fairly quick; didn't really get to twist and pull on the village that much :(
  3. Mekkah

    Mekkah
    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    14,016
    Many other small mafias should learn from the tools given to the mafia in this game (though I think thunda's kill was bordering on broken)
  4. Team Aether

    Team Aether

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    374
    Lol at Worst Player award.

    Edit: You forgot that I pseudo inspected blue_light and found that he was Indifferent, and that I found out that Xyphang faked his death.
  5. sanjay120

    sanjay120

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,737
    i am far too easily affected by peer pressure.

    let me tell you what i did. i saw that lonelyness's fakepost had a claim of b_l being the only one able to hook someone, and i pointed that out as a somewhat risky claim, and i had that fucking mushroom but i thought maybe it was technicality since it isn't actually the user hooking it was an item.

    i guess i should just learn from my mistakes and always listen to my gut. or never play mafia again.
  6. LonelyNess

    LonelyNess PK FLASH
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Messages:
    3,397
    I'm a very indecisive person.

    Anyway, had it been 4 v 4 going in to the 3rd day (as it should have been if Lanterminator hadn't eaten that damned mushroom that me and Jimbo DIDN'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT), the game would have been a lot more interesting. The problem was that I had not so much an incompetant team, but an inactive one. It's really hard to get a cohesive strategy to overturn a lynch when only 2 (me and Jimbo) are active enough to think of anything... Not to fault my teammates, I can't expect them to be online all the time, but when the two most active players from a faction die... it kind of kills any strategic planning (I can't give orders to people who aren't online), which kind of caused me to stop caring after Jimbo died.

    Anyway I had a lot of fun playing and I'm glad you let me in.
  7. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,431
    Game probably would've went better if BOTH INSPECTORS DIDN'T DIE DAY ONE (luck of the draw I guess).

    That and two godkills and a village lynch.
  8. blue_light

    blue_light

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    876
    IMO, this game was rigged for the villagers to lose. All these anti-villager measures all thrown into one game was a bit drastic. It was like every single idea posted in the "FIX SMALL MAFIA" thread was implemented. This combined with some rather bad luck had the village suffering badly in this game. Due to KOTW's death, the mafias combined together had a much larger voting presence since they had access to two silencers and a mayor/stealth voter. With KOTW's death and the death of the two super nerfed inspectors (I don't think they would have been helpful at all, you can't lynch someone if don't have majority) the village was already down to 10 people. With the mafia having 9 people, up to 2 silences during the night, and the mayor ability we were screwed.

    Alas, I still enjoyed the game even for the 2 nights and 1 and half days I was alive. Thanks for hosting, Fishin.
  9. Yoshi King

    Yoshi King

    Joined:
    May 4, 2007
    Messages:
    1,269
    Gotta apologize to blue_light for lynching him, I actually feel pretty badly about that. :( Honestly it was a completely stupid move on the village's part to believe an anonymous "tip" than to lynch a confirmed mafia. Like I said to you though blue_light, I had absolutely no proof to try and argue in your defense, otherwise I would have.

    Also lol Kumar you fucked me up good, I was considering using my ability anyways but it seems that it wouldn't have mattered... sigh. I'm sorry Fishin but I have to agree with blue_light, while I understand your desire to balance my ability, you basically set the mafia up for a win by including practically every "balance change" mentioned in that one thread. Still, I'm appreciative of being included in this game and actually quite enjoyed all of the roles you chose. Thanks for hosting.
  10. YoshiX

    YoshiX

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    320
    Apologies to my teammates for screwing up what could have been a better game.

    GG anyway.
  11. Team Aether

    Team Aether

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    374
    Great game, Fishin. Thanks for hosting! :D
  12. Da Letter El

    Da Letter El Officially internet famous
    is a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    3,129
    Gheb role, and I'm not in this game. FML
  13. Team Aether

    Team Aether

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    374
    Lol. Gheb is the creepiest role in this game.
  14. Xyphang

    Xyphang

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Messages:
    110
    Eh. I'm a huge idiot. I'm probably too naive to play mafia... but whatever. My role didn't look very important, so I figured that, why not, if I die today, then LN was a mafia, and he would die the next day. And if he was mayor, then village was screwed should he die.
    However, thanks for being patient with me, and thanks for hosting.
  15. Mekkah

    Mekkah
    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    14,016
    It helped the mafia, but it didn't make them broken or anything. Remember that without these measures, village has pretty much no excuse to lose. Look at past small games, where the only way mafia could win was if they got in a mole that never dies, or one of the villagers makes a huge important fuck-up.

    You can't say this game was rigged in favor of either of the mafians with its set-up as a basis, since you guys got two villagers godkilled, two important roles (rand?)killed and lynched the wrong people.
  16. LonelyNess

    LonelyNess PK FLASH
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Messages:
    3,397
    You guys also had an every other night vigilante... which could have severely fucked up the mafia had you not used it to target the one mafia that was already down.
  17. blue_light

    blue_light

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    876
    Past games also had mafias with only a odd or even night kill. This in my opinion was the real disadvantage that the mafia had in those games, they didn't have the killing power to win.
  18. Fishin

    Fishin
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2005
    Messages:
    2,660
    Both mafia groups had an every night kill, but this was balanced by the fact that there was no wolf at all and the Loved kill could be reduced to every other night if Excalibur was killed (though the Hateful did also have a one-time bonus kill). Also, unlike in some other games, the mafia didn't have a surefire way of overthrowing the lynch. Granted, the fact that if they worked together they had +3 votes (the money, Ultros Silence, and Accelerator Silence) meant they could control the lynch if both groups were willing to compromise the identities of all their members, but I didn't expect this to happen, and it didn't, since the lynches on both blue_light and Xyphang were endorsed by most of the villagers.

    If I were to go back and change the balance of the game, I might add one more villager, prevent consecutive silences, rebalance the teams in terms of players, change the Hateful's one-time kill/bg null to simply a one-time bg nullification, but the village had a solid chance without any real drastic changes being implemented. If the village lynched correctly during the day, used the vigilante's ability correctly, used WHH's ability successfully, and used Waldo's one-time Night ender, and the mafia never crossfired or had their kills blocked at all, it would look something like this:

    Night 0: 13/4/5
    Day 1: 11/4/5
    Night 1: 11/4/4
    Day 2: 9/4/3
    Night 2: 9/4/3
    Day 3: 7/3/3
    Night 3: 7/2/3
    Day 4: 7/2/3 (night is skipped)
    Night 4: 7/2/2
    Day 5: 4/1/2 (hateful bonus kill used)
    Night 5: 4/1/1
    Day 6: 3/1/1 (loved can't kill)
    Night 6: 3/1/0
    Day 7: 2/1/0
    Night 8: 2/0/0 village wins

    Of course, there are a lot of factors that had the potential to change that progression, and that's what makes a game interesting. The Loved could lose their every-night kill earlier, (they needed at least 3 members alive in order to kill every night), crossfires could happen, killers could get hooked or guarded or stopped by BPV, the Indifferent could boost their killing ability with Ring Soul's power, etc. Conversely, the mafia could trick the village into lynching one of their own or not lynching anyone at all, WHH's ability could fail to get used, someone aligned with any team could get godkilled, Waldo or Miguel could get killed before doing much...you get the picture.

    (general point is that though it's possible they should've been stronger, the village still had a good chance)

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)