Metagame Misdreavus = dead, Fletchling = alive

[LightningLuxray]

I've always found U-turn to be really valuable to be able to have a sure answer to what the opponent decides to switch in, especially in the case of an opponent having multiple checks. I'd say it's definitely more important than Roost but I could see some situations where three attacks could come in handy, such as when the opponent ends up with just one really obvious Fletchling check.

Yeah I mean I noticed a lot of people were running Chinchou / Steel-type / Fighting-type and three attacks deals with that late-game as long as you can rack up some hazard damage by keeping them up the entire match (which really isn't that hard with Missy lol) (oh and I used Dwebble to Spike stack which helped)

 

[Slashari]

After a bit more thought here is my post:
1. Is Fletchling broken?

Simply put, yes. Fletchling can bypass some/most of its checks depending on who you ask and what it runs. Overheat ruins Magnemite on the switch, and screws over Pawniard allowing Acrobatics to finish it off . HP Grass can also be run to take care of both Omanyte and Tirtouga, and even the rare Binacle. You can even argue that Steel Wing takes care of Archen, though I disagree with the small 6.3% chance to kill even after SR (technically about 13% chance factoring in crits but whatever). However, SR are needed for Magnemite, Evio Pawniard, Archen, and Tirtuoga (2 switching needed for Eviolite, but you can simply use U-Turn after HP Grass, not letting it switch in next time). Legitimately, all that is needed for HP Grass and Overheat to function properly is 36 EV's in Special Attack and a neutral nature. I'm not going to touch Natural Gift Fletch as I just don't understand how it works consistently, but even that can't beat RestTalk Chinchou: the one true Fletchling counter. But even then, the infamous FletchDig core disposes of this anyhow. Swords Dance is what makes Fletchling so damn lethal however. After any Flying resists are eliminated, and the bulkiest of walls worn down to 70-80%, a +2 Fletchling simply tears through a team. You can't outspeed it unless you have Extreme Speed or Fake Out (or Feint lol). The one problem with Fletchling is only having four moveslots, letting having Tirtuoga + Magnemite beat it.

EDIT: Archen can't switch in again after the first Steel Wing.

• 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 196+ Atk Fletchling Steel Wing vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also fails to KO with Rock Tomb in Defeatist range.

• 180 Atk Defeatist Archen Rock Tomb vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

2. Is Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?

Subjective question. Again, personally no. But I enjoy using Magnemite and Omanyte regardless so I don't work about a solo Fletchling. Using niche mons to beat Fletchling is rather fun, using LO Fletch (or other odd Fletch sets) is even more fun. But to each their own.
3. Is a combination of 1 or 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

I have seen people completely rage quit because of this bird. If I can make 3 or 4 people completely go offline for 20 minutes or so in a month (so 30-40 ladder battles) because of this one pokemon, the answer is evidently going to be a yes. Please ban Fletch.

But the thing is, Fletch can't/shouldn't run all those moves on one set. You either miss out on SD, which limits your sweeping potential, Roost, which takes away recovery (although I admit this is too important as Fletch doesn't find very many opportunities to Roost), or U-turn, which is valuable to keep up offensive momentum and pressure. By running a set filled with mediocre coverage moves that are a bit unreliable, you take away from Fletchling's main role--an offensive pivot/revenge killer/cleaner. Like you said, a lot of those coverage moves don't do much outside hitting very specific mons, and even then, their reliability is shaky.

 

[mad0ka]

K, I predicted both HP Grasses to avoid my tirtouga being ko'd "BAM", no matter how simple the prediction is it's not 100% guaranteed. That SD is almost mandatory on Fletchling for it to do any real damage, Pawniard has enough Atk, and doesn't need anything boosted to hit hard, esp w/ the knock off boost. All it does is make it a great mon your right, but it's not broken in anyway lol.

Also I never mentioned Mienfoo / Timburr / Scraggy / Foongus, so idk where that came from.

You only have to predict one HP Grass as Fletchling outspeeds. A combination of 1 acro, 2 hp grasses, and u-turn kills tirt. Just hit it on the switch once.

Also Mienfoo/Timburr/Scraggy/Foongus were in response to other people, not just you.

 

[boo836]

Fletch is a cleaner, first and foremost. Unlike most other cleaners, which rely on set up or a Choice Scarf, Fletch just comes in and wrecks shit up without any cost. Threatening to KO barely/moderately weakened Pokemon from the get-go is kind of crazy. But, is Diglett really the issue when it's usually a one-trick pony? The Diglett switch is always kind of obvious, and most times it has trouble coming in because 9/10 the move the Chou should always be using is Scald. If people were so concerned about losing their Fletch check to Diglett, they obviously would not be running Chinchou. The real issue is that as I stated, Fletch is able to 2HKO basically anything that isn't a wall and doesn't resist Flying (in other words, the majority of the metagame). Just because it's a win condition, doesn't mean that it should still be necessary to carry MULTIPLE hard, dedicated checks just for Fletchling. On stall, all you have to run is Porygon for Misdreavus. On offense? It's almost always a tossup between Archen, Chinchou, Tirtouga, and Magnemite, but you almost always have to pick two. That's absolutely ridiculous when it comes to teambuilding, and it's the primary cause of the metagame becoming stale.

 

[Eren Yeagar]

After a bit more thought here is my post:
1. Is Fletchling broken?

Simply put, yes. Fletchling can bypass some/most of its checks depending on who you ask and what it runs. Overheat ruins Magnemite on the switch, and screws over Pawniard allowing Acrobatics to finish it off . HP Grass can also be run to take care of both Omanyte and Tirtouga, and even the rare Binacle. You can even argue that Steel Wing takes care of Archen, though I disagree with the small 6.3% chance to kill even after SR (technically about 13% chance factoring in crits but whatever). However, SR are needed for Magnemite, Evio Pawniard, Archen, and Tirtuoga (2 switching needed for Eviolite, but you can simply use U-Turn after HP Grass, not letting it switch in next time). Legitimately, all that is needed for HP Grass and Overheat to function properly is 36 EV's in Special Attack and a neutral nature. I'm not going to touch Natural Gift Fletch as I just don't understand how it works consistently, but even that can't beat RestTalk Chinchou: the one true Fletchling counter. But even then, the infamous FletchDig core disposes of this anyhow. Swords Dance is what makes Fletchling so damn lethal however. After any Flying resists are eliminated, and the bulkiest of walls worn down to 70-80%, a +2 Fletchling simply tears through a team. You can't outspeed it unless you have Extreme Speed or Fake Out (or Feint lol). The one problem with Fletchling is only having four moveslots, letting having Tirtuoga + Magnemite beat it.

EDIT: Archen can't switch in again after the first Steel Wing.

• 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 196+ Atk Fletchling Steel Wing vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also fails to KO with Rock Tomb in Defeatist range.

• 180 Atk Defeatist Archen Rock Tomb vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

2. Is Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?

Subjective question. Again, personally no. But I enjoy using Magnemite and Omanyte regardless so I don't work about a solo Fletchling. Using niche mons to beat Fletchling is rather fun, using LO Fletch (or other odd Fletch sets) is even more fun. But to each their own.
3. Is a combination of 1 or 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

I have seen people completely rage quit because of this bird. If I can make 3 or 4 people completely go offline for 20 minutes or so in a month (so 30-40 ladder battles) because of this one pokemon, the answer is evidently going to be a yes. Please ban Fletch.

First of all, i totally agree with you on the natural gift fletch thing, I've never seen it used it in my life.Anyway,the problem is,Fiend Hound, why would fletch put steel wing just for archen? It would be a waste of a moveslot to put a move that only centers on one poke. Much like Slashari said, you miss out on WAY more better moves if you put steel wing in your arsenal. Plus, in this metagame, archen is not too common and most people who use it put more defense evs on it or have berry juice as an item for a free switch. By the way, I think you're a little exaggerating that people would go offline for a month because of this bird.First of all, there are so many good checks and counters such as magnemite,archen,tirtouga,chinchou,and many more. All of these pokes in LC are used a lot and almost every player has one of them in their team for fletch and more pokes which does not limit teambuilding. Also, fletchling is not super banworthy.Ban fletchling, take clorodrought with it.

Post-editing: Fiend Hound I never said archen is bad,it is one of my favorites,it's just a little common.

 

[JudgeMasterCid]

Fletch is a cleaner, first and foremost. Unlike most other cleaners, which rely on set up or a Choice Scarf, Fletch just comes in and wrecks shit up without any cost. Threatening to KO barely/moderately weakened Pokemon from the get-go is kind of crazy. But, is Diglett really the issue when it's usually a one-trick pony? The Diglett switch is always kind of obvious, and most times it has trouble coming in because 9/10 the move the Chou should always be using is Scald. If people were so concerned about losing their Fletch check to Diglett, they obviously would not be running Chinchou. The real issue is that as I stated, Fletch is able to 2HKO basically anything that isn't a wall and doesn't resist Flying (in other words, the majority of the metagame). Just because it's a win condition, doesn't mean that it should still be necessary to carry MULTIPLE hard, dedicated checks just for Fletchling. On stall, all you have to run is Porygon for Misdreavus. On offense? It's almost always a tossup between Archen, Chinchou, Tirtouga, and Magnemite, but you almost always have to pick two. That's absolutely ridiculous when it comes to teambuilding, and it's the primary cause of the metagame becoming stale.

On this particular case, I beg to differ. Having to run scores of Pokemon just to check or counter Fletchling is unnecessary when its options are so limited. As a matter of fact, most of these Pokemon are not different to anything that would be ran normally on most teams. These Pokemon, most notably Chinchou, Pawniard, Archen, or Magnemite, are not checks to Fletchling alone. These very Pokemon are meant as strong picks for a large number of Pokemon, among which Fletchling can be accounted for. Under these conditions, it would be as saying that we're 'forced' to run several Pokemon that currently enjoy very good positions on the LC Viability Rankings, one standing at S (Pawniard), while the other three (Chinchou, Magnemite, and Archen) are A+. In fact, any number of Pokemon that are lower on this list can easily check Fletchling to the point where it is not necessary to run the aforementioned Pokemon, but merely, it has become the best possible option. Laddering with a team whose main cleaner is not Fletchling-proof has given me, to an extent, good experience on how to handle him, and I must say, there were other Pokemon that crossed my mind first as more of a real threat when choices were made during the team building process.

 

[The Avalanches]

Fletch is a cleaner, first and foremost. Unlike most other cleaners, which rely on set up or a Choice Scarf, Fletch just comes in and wrecks shit up without any cost. Threatening to KO barely/moderately weakened Pokemon from the get-go is kind of crazy. But, is Diglett really the issue when it's usually a one-trick pony? The Diglett switch is always kind of obvious, and most times it has trouble coming in because 9/10 the move the Chou should always be using is Scald. If people were so concerned about losing their Fletch check to Diglett, they obviously would not be running Chinchou. The real issue is that as I stated, Fletch is able to 2HKO basically anything that isn't a wall and doesn't resist Flying (in other words, the majority of the metagame). Just because it's a win condition, doesn't mean that it should still be necessary to carry MULTIPLE hard, dedicated checks just for Fletchling. On stall, all you have to run is Porygon for Misdreavus. On offense? It's almost always a tossup between Archen, Chinchou, Tirtouga, and Magnemite, but you almost always have to pick two. That's absolutely ridiculous when it comes to teambuilding, and it's the primary cause of the metagame becoming stale.

Mentioning only needing to carry Porygon in order to deal with missy is glossing over the ways Missy can screw Porygon up. Porygon is the only thing close to a counter, and it's completely screwed if Missy starts Nasty Plotting. Having to necessarily run Porygon is more ridiculous than having to choose from one or two things to check Fletch that really don't restrict teambuilding all that much.

 

[Slashari]

People keep saying that you have to run a ton of checks just for Fletch, but I beg to differ. A lot of these checks, like Chinchou, Pawniard, Magnemite, Archen, and Tirtouga, just to name a few, are very viable outside of simply functioning as Fletchling checks, and perform other roles. Certainly in this meta their ability to check Fletchling has been emphasized, but we aren't really at the point where Fletch can get around every single check with one set, forcing you to run some incredibly random niche set or mon to beat it. It can't really be compared to Missy, since there are much more viable Fletchling checks than there are Missy checks.

Edit: Thanks Levi fren

 

[The Avalanches]

People keep saying that you have to run a ton of checks just for Fletch, but I beg to differ. A lot of these checks, like Chinchou, Pawniard, Magnemite, Archen, and Tirtouga, just to name a few, are very viable outside of simply functioning as Fletchling checks and perform other roles. Certainly in this meta their ability to check Fletchling has been emphasized, but we aren't really at the point where Fletch can get around every single check with one set, forcing you to run some incredibly random niche set or mon to beat it. It can't really be compared to Missy, since there are much more viable Fletchling checks than there are Missy.

I agree with this totally. Tirtouga and Archen can both lay hazards, knock off and Archen can remove hazards in addition to checking Fletch, Pawniard and Magnemite can tear down other threats, and Chinchou is solid on any team that likes a volt turner. It's difficult to make a team where one of the checks doesn't fit in, this isn't as true for Missy.

 

[fatty]

That whole list bar Shadow Ball Munchlax and Guts Timburr really doesn't like taking Will-O-Wisp or Hidden Power Fighting, two moves that are both extremely common and useful on Misdreavus. Fletchling needs serious help or really risky coverage moves to handle a lot of what checks it. There's the difference.

I mean I'm not as against Misdreavus as some, I'm on the fence about it, but can people stop being so rude to people who disagree on a suspect? We're supposed to be having a discussion which is awfully hard with people sniping at each other all the time.

my point with the list was not that every single one of those mons can easily deal with misdreavus, in fact, it was the exact opposite. you cannot deny though that every single one of those mons can be used to at least check misdreavus, just has been stated about numerous checks that fletchling supposedly had. there is not the multitude of checks for fletchling that people are making there out to be. there comes a time when certain checks are not worth running in a competitive match, and that's partly where the uncompetitive nature stemming from fletchling comes from.

also, on a side note, ive seen it brought up a lot in this thread and i refuse to believe that diglett is the only problem. if diglett is the problem, then why can't it set up any other mon nearly as effectively? the answer lies not within diglett's trapping ability, but to how limited fletchlings serious checks actually are and how easily they are taken advantage of. and they're not only easily taken advantage of through trapping, which is also why diglett isn't near the problem people are saying it is. you don't need diglett for fletchling to still take an immense toll on a team. all you need is a little support. use a mon that can also throw around a powerful flying stab (i.e. archen, other birds) and maybe a little knock off support and voila you have a doorway for a fletchling sweep. you can also support with hazards, which is equally as effective, but no matter how you choose, diglett, knock off, double bird, spikes, it is way too easy to get it primed for a sweep.

sorry if any of my posts have seemed like im trying to be a dick, because i'm not, i just don't like arguments that incorporate bad reasonings.

 

[Fiend]

First of all, i totally agree with you on the natural gift fletch thing, I've never seen it used it in my life.Anyway,the problem is,Fiend Hound, why the heck would fletch put steel wing just for archen? It would be a waste of a moveslot to put a move that only centers on one poke. Much like Slashari said, you miss out on WAY more better moves if you put steel wing in your arsenal. Plus, in this metagame, archen is not too common and most people who use it put more defense evs on it or have berry juice as an item for a free switch. By the way, I think you're a little exaggerating that people would go offline for a month because of this bird.First of all, there are so many good checks and counters such as magnemite,archen,tirtouga,chinchou,and many more. All of these pokes in LC are used a lot and almost every player has one of them in their team for fletch and more pokes which does not limit teambuilding. Also, fletchling is not super banworthy.Ban fletchling, take clorodrought with it.

I would like to clarify that in a month, I have made 3 or 4 people log all the way of off PS! with the stupid bird, not made them quit for a month. Also, legitamtely, I have seen Steal Wing maybe four times, well four times counting me using twice. The first time was during Krowtite when I was using Fletch for Bird spam, the second was a random on the ladder, the third was in a room tour once, and of course the fourth time was my LO Fletch set. It's honestly not the best option available, but nevertheless it is there. And if I didn't mention it, someone would say how Archen is a counter to Fletch. (Eviolite Archen might be still, I don't remember the EV's to do a calc.)
Also, I don't see how Archen doesn't have a niche outside of checking Fletch. superba pokemon and makes a wonderful offensive threat as well as having a beautiful typing. Someone explain to me why it will be bad once/if Fletchling leaves, please.

 

[Eren Yeagar]

Also, I don't see how Archen doesn't have a niche outside of checking Fletch. superba pokemon and makes a wonderful offensive threat as well as having a beautiful typing. Someone explain to me why it will be bad once/if Fletchling leaves, please.

Fiend Hound, I never said archen was a bad poke. It is one of my favorite LC pokes of all time.It's just that you don't see archen that much,as least i do.Archen is a great asset to any team and a great cleaner. Archen definitely has my respect :).

 

[Diana]

my point with the list was not that every single one of those mons can easily deal with misdreavus, in fact, it was the exact opposite. you cannot deny though that every single one of those mons can be used to at least check misdreavus, just has been stated about numerous checks that fletchling supposedly had. there is not the multitude of checks for fletchling that people are making there out to be. there comes a time when certain checks are not worth running in a competitive match, and that's partly where the uncompetitive nature stemming from fletchling comes from.

also, on a side note, ive seen it brought up a lot in this thread and i refuse to believe that diglett is the only problem. if diglett is the problem, then why can't it set up any other mon nearly as effectively? the answer lies not within diglett's trapping ability, but to how limited fletchlings serious checks actually are and how easily they are taken advantage of. and they're not only easily taken advantage of through trapping, which is also why diglett isn't near the problem people are saying it is. you don't need diglett for fletchling to still take an immense toll on a team. all you need is a little support. use a mon that can also throw around a powerful flying stab (i.e. archen, other birds) and maybe a little knock off support and voila you have a doorway for a fletchling sweep. you can also support with hazards, which is equally as effective, but no matter how you choose, diglett, knock off, double bird, spikes, it is way too easy to get it primed for a sweep.

sorry if any of my posts have seemed like im trying to be a dick, because i'm not, i just don't like arguments that incorporate bad reasonings.

I apologize then, I misunderstood your post. And yes, I agree that some things mentioned to check Fletchling aren't worthwhile, but the number of decent ones is also bigger than the four I've seen some people say are the only ones as well. The reality is somewhere in between, and whether some of the lower-tier ones are viable depends on what a team's needs are. Not going to try to back the use of Bronzor by any means, but something like Onix, which isn't one of those A-tier Pokemon, isn't anywhere near useless. My point was that I found that Misdreavus could take on its checks more easily than Fletchling with less opportunity cost, but I know from this thread not everyone's going to end up agreeing with that.

Okay, as long as that's what you were trying to do we're all right, I just saw yours and a few other posts and really thought I should speak up before it got too out of hand, since I have seen threads in the past go downhill quickly. I won't hold any grudges or anything though, I know topics like this can get heated.

 

[tutterydiglett]

Okayyyy so I'm pretty new to LC right now but clearly, Fletchling and Misdreavus are two ridiculous forces in the metagame.

Archen is a really good check to Fletchling imo, it can take anything the little bird throws at it and hit back hard with Acro or Rock Slide. I can't think of a solid check to Misdreavus off the top of my head, but Scarf Pawn can KO it with Knock Off/Pursuit. But perfect coverage w/ HP Fighting and Shadow Ball + a great speed stat makes it arguably more threatening than Fletchling. SubNP is also devastating. Just wanted to put that out there!

 

[Superpowerdude]

Cranidos is prone to being worn down, but the point was that it's a check and immediately threatens the opposing team far more than Fletchling does. Secondly, just because Tyrunt checks similar things, doesn't mean it's outclassed and there's no reason to use it. It fulfills a different niche and can find it's spot on teams and honestly just looking at the analysis would tell you why you might use it over Tirtouga or Archen. That's basically the only "redundant" check in the post, as the others are fairly common and fulfill unique niches.



First of all Fletchling isn't "utterly destroying" thing that don't resist it. It often fails to 2HKO many common pokemon in the tier. Fletchling also doesn't have a fast u-turn as the most common set is only 12 speed and sets with more speed have their own problems that will typically outweigh the benefits.


There are so many common pokemon in the tier that are able to be successful regardless of Fletchling's presence and being weak to Acrobatics; Timburr, Mienfoo, Cottonee, Foongus, etc. Doduo also fulfills a different niche than Fletchling and I don't feel a ban on Fletchling would even make it more common.


This suspect is for whether or not to ban Fletchling and Misdreavus. Only banning Gale Wings isn't an option.

It's true cranidos is kind of an unusual check in that it can't afford to switch in more than once but it can threaten anything that switches in with a 2hko if the right prediction is used.

But still cranidos often likes to be preserved as a late game sweeper and switching into Fletchlings acrobatics kinda defeats the purpose of this set because it makes is more susceptible to being ko'd by neutral hits from things that can take a hit and weaker priority

Also Fletchling is gauranteed to live any hit from Cranidos other than its rock stab (superpower, zen headbutt, and crunch are all 2hkos so fletch can live a hit so with risky prediction you can actually beat cranidos if it switches in since acrobatics 3hkos. And this is a pretty common scenario since a choice locked cranidos may want to snipe a Mienfoo with zen headbutt because it will gain momentum if it comes in on the rockslide or head smash, and Mienfoo is a very common partner for Fletching of course mainly because it can pivot into it nicely and lures Grass-types and Pokemon like Timburr and croagunk who Fletchling instantly threatens

And there are more redundant checks, a Pokemon may be able to perform a small niche, but is generally outclassed by another Pokemon with the same role. Why use Frillish when you can use Missy? Sure it has the niche of being able to spin block and hit drilbur super effectively but Misdreavus can still spin block it an has Will-o Wisp making Frillish an outclassed option as a missy check there. Why use bronzor when there is nosepass when there is ferroseed? Who also beats Chinchou and Cottonee and foongus in some cases while being able to set up an entry hazard of your choice (spikes or rocks) it also has more reliable recovery than the other two in the form of leech seed (recycle juice sucks with Knock Off weak Bronzor.)

And to the person who said they want Fletch banned so dodou can shine although it is against my viewpoint but if Fletchling were to stay in the tier I argue that dodou would be more useful than if it isn't it doesn't reach high enough speed to take Fletchlings place as a flying sweeper and it is the perfect wall breaker for Fletchling, luring in the same checks and hurting them with Brave Bird + crippling them with knock off


EDIT: forgot to specify what cranidos set

236 Atk Sheer Force Cranidos Zen Headbutt vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 14-17 (60.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)

Also that calc is Scarf but even LIfe orb adamant cranidos only has 6.3% of koing with zen headbutt or crunch but don't forget the point I made above that usually people like to preserve their cranidos to late game for a sweep and taking acrobatics from fletch will make the sweep harder to achieve

 

[nv]

Ok it is time for my Missy post...

Misdreavus

She has been the queen of LC imo. Granted I agree that LC is like having OU, UU, RU, and NU all in one meta so there are gonna be Pokemon that are just not viable compared to others. But when it comes down to it, I believe that Misdreavus doesn't allow any other Ghosts to shine. Now don't get me wrong, this is not why I believe it should be banned. There are two reasons why I believe it should be banned:

Versatility
This is the main complaint about Misdreavus and I completely agree that it is true. The fact that she can run any set without little to no repercussion in terms of coverage or utility is what makes her such a huge threat. I know things like Choice Scarf Pawniard and Bulky Houndour have come up in terms of usage to keep Missy in check. Now granted, each of these pokes have their own usage but I believe their main niche is to take down Misdreavus. The fact that Missy can easily beat both of these pokes with its multitude of sets means it can eventually overpower them. It can also use team support to wear them down to end up winning one-v-one. It's versatility doesn't just rely on its set but its typing coupled with its bulk and speed, which brings me to my next point.

Bulk, Speed, Typing
Misdreavus's lone Ghost typing has proven amazing in LC, even with the Knock Off spam this gen. Her Ghost typing, to me, overcentralizes the Ghost-type as a whole as whenever another Ghost is used, most ask "why not use Missy? It has better bulk, better speed, and better 'all-aroundness'" and I believe this to be true. Now I am not saying ban Missy so other Ghosts may shine, but I am saying most Ghosts cannot shine due to Missy being so popular. Now onto her bulk. Missy's natural stats of 60/60/85 is decent bulk for a fast Pokemon, and therein lies the problem. This is because most bulky Pokemon are not fast and most fast Pokemon are frail. Misdreavus however fits the role of both, being bulky and fast, allowing her to shine in both roles. Base 85 Speed allows Misdreavus to also hit the coveted 19 Speed tier, with only a few Pokemon faster than her and only a few of those actually viable (i.e. Elekid, Diglett).

TL;DR
Missy needs the ban hammer brought down upon her. I love her, but I do believe she can play the role of Bulky / Fast Attacker and has versatile sets and have no repercussions for running any of the sets.

 

[tcr]

One thing I have noticed as that a lot of Fletchling checks simply are not what people make them out to be. Pokemon such as Archen and Chinchou simply are not "great Pokemon" that people are making them out to be. Chinchou got severely hurt with the Knock Off buff, as it cannot make an effective revenge killer anymore, and Eviolite sets are really weak / defenseless when Eviolite is lost. Archen really has no safe opportunities to switch in, due to Defeatist. Again it is hit hard with Knock Off. The thing both of those ahve in common, is that they both can ALWAYS switch in on Fletchling. Neither really want to take any attacks.

Lets take a look at last months usage stats:

The only Pokemon that Chinchou WANTS to switch into is Fletchling, Magnemite, and lol Chinchou. Chinchou really does not take things like a Misdreavus +2 Shadow Ball well, as it either KOes late game, or it is 2hkoed. Meanwhile, Chinchou cannot really touch Misdreavus. Might weaken it a little with Thunderbolt, but never KO. Obviously people knew that Chinchou was not a Misdreavus check, so i'll continue. Next we have a common grouping: Knock Off users. Chinchou cannot safely switch in to Pokemon such as Pawniard, Mienfoo, Scraggy, Croagunk, Dwebble, Aipom, and Timburr, as they severely cripple, and sometimes outright set up or OHKO, Chinchou. Abra 2hkoes even maximum SpD Chinchou with Psychic, without a Life Orb. Other Pokemon such as Foongus or Drilbur or Bellsprout simply OHKO or outright wall Chinchou. This logic also applies to Archen, however the amount of things that Archen can switch into is slightly bigger, with the addition of Drilbur, some Mienfoo variatns, Vulpix, and Cottonee.

My point is thus: Fletchling's "non niche checks" are not really as excellent of Pokemon to begin with. They are good, but not to the point that you can just shaft them onto a team and call it a day. Both require care to use, and truly only shine at checking Fletchling, or Birdspam, or whatever. Of course, this is taking into account you not having momentum when using either of these. Neither Pokemon really take neutral hits well, and only really shine when switching into resisted hits or immunities. I just figured I would point this out, because I really do not like seeing "Fletchling has counters that are great Pokemon and easy to fit onto a team." Every time I have used Pokemon like Eviolite Archen or Eviolite Chinchou, they have not really done much except switch into Fletchling, which is something to say.

I'd also just like to say enough with saying I want X Pokemon banned so Y Pokemon can shine. If either are banned, it will bc they are unhealthy, not bc you want Doduo or Gastly or Duskull to have more usage. This is an extremely poor argument to use, as you should never want something banned for the sole reason to increase usage of another.

 

[The Avalanches]

One thing I have noticed as that a lot of Fletchling checks simply are not what people make them out to be. Pokemon such as Archen and Chinchou simply are not "great Pokemon" that people are making them out to be. Chinchou got severely hurt with the Knock Off buff, as it cannot make an effective revenge killer anymore, and Eviolite sets are really weak / defenseless when Eviolite is lost. Archen really has no safe opportunities to switch in, due to Defeatist. Again it is hit hard with Knock Off. The thing both of those ahve in common, is that they both can ALWAYS switch in on Fletchling. Neither really want to take any attacks.

Lets take a look at last months usage stats:

The only Pokemon that Chinchou WANTS to switch into is Fletchling, Magnemite, and lol Chinchou. Chinchou really does not take things like a Misdreavus +2 Shadow Ball well, as it either KOes late game, or it is 2hkoed. Meanwhile, Chinchou cannot really touch Misdreavus. Might weaken it a little with Thunderbolt, but never KO. Obviously people knew that Chinchou was not a Misdreavus check, so i'll continue. Next we have a common grouping: Knock Off users. Chinchou cannot safely switch in to Pokemon such as Pawniard, Mienfoo, Scraggy, Croagunk, Dwebble, Aipom, and Timburr, as they severely cripple, and sometimes outright set up or OHKO, Chinchou. Abra 2hkoes even maximum SpD Chinchou with Psychic, without a Life Orb. Other Pokemon such as Foongus or Drilbur or Bellsprout simply OHKO or outright wall Chinchou. This logic also applies to Archen, however the amount of things that Archen can switch into is slightly bigger, with the addition of Drilbur, some Mienfoo variatns, Vulpix, and Cottonee.

My point is thus: Fletchling's "non niche checks" are not really as excellent of Pokemon to begin with. They are good, but not to the point that you can just shaft them onto a team and call it a day. Both require care to use, and truly only shine at checking Fletchling, or Birdspam, or whatever. Of course, this is taking into account you not having momentum when using either of these. Neither Pokemon really take neutral hits well, and only really shine when switching into resisted hits or immunities. I just figured I would point this out, because I really do not like seeing "Fletchling has counters that are great Pokemon and easy to fit onto a team." Every time I have used Pokemon like Eviolite Archen or Eviolite Chinchou, they have not really done much except switch into Fletchling, which is something to say.

I'd also just like to say enough with saying I want X Pokemon banned so Y Pokemon can shine. If either are banned, it will bc they are unhealthy, not bc you want Doduo or Gastly or Duskull to have more usage. This is an extremely poor argument to use, as you should never want something banned for the sole reason to increase usage of another.

Fletchling rose to prominence and major usage around April after Murkrow and Meditite were banned; prior to this, it had around 12% usage in LC(month of February), and it wasn't an influential force, certainly not to the extent it is now. Despite this, Chinchou was 6th in usage, used on 29% of teams, more than it even is now. Tirtouga, Magnemite and Pawniard also enjoyed high usage, long before they were being slapped on teams to stop Fletchling (although I'll pay out on Archen, way down in the 30s) These Pokemon had their own niches in LC, and they do now, even not regarding Fletchling. I don't think they're dead weight on any team. No, they can't just be slapped on any team, but finding a place on a team for them isn't prohibitively hard.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Fletchling rose to prominence and major usage around April after Murkrow and Meditite were banned; prior to this, it had around 12% usage in LC(month of February), and it wasn't an influential force, certainly not to the extent it is now. Despite this, Chinchou was 6th in usage, used on 29% of teams, more than it even is now. Tirtouga, Magnemite and Pawniard also enjoyed high usage, long before they were being slapped on teams to stop Fletchling (although I'll pay out on Archen, way down in the 30s) These Pokemon had their own niches in LC, and they do now, even not regarding Fletchling. I don't think they're dead weight on any team. No, they can't just be slapped on any team, but finding a place on a team for them isn't prohibitively hard.

Wouldn't these Pokemon still have high usage regardless because they check Murkrow? What your post does show me is that prior to being banned no one bothered to use Archen which kind of supports TCR's argument that the viable Fletchling checks aren't as good a they are made out to be

Perhaps archens usage increased because people figured out it can Defog and stealth rock and shit but it has got to also be a reaction to how good Fletchling and Fletchdig teams are

 

[Rowan]

If fletch can get round counters so easily with natural gift, hidden power, or steel wing then why don't we see them run more often? Because using them makes fletchling lack-lustre as a Pokemon by sacrificing one of its other moves.
Misdreavus can get round it's counters with hp fight, dgleam, wisp, sub and taunt but these don't compromise misdreavus's effectiveness as a Pokemon outside of getting past counters. That's the main difference between these two Pokemon imo

 

[Artemisa]

Yeh what Rowan said.

Shadow Ball + Dazzle and Shadow Ball + HP Fight have perfect coverage, you don't lose any coverage and you still can overcome the majority of its checks/counters depending on the last to moveslots and item. Missy is extremely flexible.

Fletchling has one moveslot free maybe two, and pick off certain mons with that free slot not most of them. Some of those mons have to be hit on the switch like Magnemite vs Overheat Fletchling because Magnemite outspeeds and that isn't a valid way to overcome something. Sure it's possible, but it isn't reliable.

 

[boo836]

Fletchling doesn't compromise itself when it runs Hidden Power or Steel Wing. If anything, it makes it better because you never really get the chance to use Roost. Saying otherwise is as absurd as saying Misdreavus needs Will-o-Wisp to be effective, except with an even less useful move.

 

[chimp]

PSA: Being "broken" does not always refer to the mon being an uncounterable offensive behemoth. A Pokemon can have counters and still be broken or unhealthy.

If fletch can get round counters so easily with natural gift, hidden power, or steel wing then why don't we see them run more often? Because using them makes fletchling lack-lustre as a Pokemon by sacrificing one of its other moves.
Misdreavus can get round it's counters with hp fight, dgleam, wisp, sub and taunt but these don't compromise misdreavus's effectiveness as a Pokemon outside of getting past counters. That's the main difference between these two Pokemon imo

I agree with boo836 here. I dont know, maybe I'm missing something, but how is adding another coverage move compromising Fletchling's usefulness? If I wanted a Fletchling that can get around a Chinchou I'd use Return over Roost. If my team couldn't handle Archen I'd use Steel Wing. If I wanted a Pokemon to build momentum I'd use u-turn. Now, I'm not particularly saying that Steel Wing or stuff like that is particularly GOOD strategy, but it certainly exists. If you bring just an Archen to combat the enemy's Fletch and they bust out a Steel Wing you are pretty much screwed. Of course, having coverage =/= broken. I know that. But in Fletchling's case, you can't exactly afford to lose a dedicated counter because otherwise it will demolish you, unlike something like Mienfoo, who can get around its counters with Acrobatics/Knock Off/P. Jab/etc but can still lose to other pokemon during the match.

On another note, Fletchling is probably the best Revenge Killer in the metagame. No other pokemon can boast the ability to stop pretty much every offensive archetype just with a single move. Even Trick Room and Sticky Web! It can do so at no cost to itself, too.

 

[fatty]

parlaying off of blizzardy's post, fletchling is the best revenge killer in the tier, as well as the best sweeper imo. not to mention, combining those aspects with uturn, it's arguably the best scout and momentum keeper in the tier on too of that. you may not agree with me on it being the best sweeper, but it comes down to a few very simple reasons. first of all, flying stab has always been great in lc, as it has been in most tiers, due to great neutral coverage, no immunes, and flying checks having little to no form of recovery, making it easier to wear them down. secondly, and most importantly, fletchling cannot be revenge killed, and this is a majorly important point that I don't think has been talked about enough. Against most sweepers, you have your checks / counters, but you also have your panic button, be it a scarfer or a utility mon like croagunk. this allows you to play the game on your terms, maybe make a risky play or too, and not just adhere to the offensive pressure of the opponent. with fletchling, that all goes out the door. you have no fall back mon, your rock / elec / steel check is all that's standing in the way of them and a fletch sweep. this puts the game almost always in the fletchling users favor as they already know how you're going to have to deal with it, and it is infinitely times harder to outright wall something then it is to revenge kill.

 

[Celestavian]

I'd like to say that we should not confuse a "revenge killer" with "cleaner". I don't think there are any hard-and-fast definitions of these two terms, but I'll do my best to describe what I believe them to be. A revenge killer comes in for free after losing an ally and immediately threatens to OHKO the opponent, regardless of its current HP, who scored the KO, without much threat of being OHKOed itself. A cleaner is proficient at mopping up weakened teams, with enemy Pokemon on average at or below 50% HP, ideally with all of them in OHKO range of one or all of the cleaner's moves. I'd say that Fletchling falls into more of the latter part, while Abra is a perfect example of the first one and is what I believe to actually be the best "revenge killer" in the metagame. Fletchling can't kill anything that isn't weak to Acrobatics or doesn't have Carvanha-tier defenses at full health, meaning it can only really clean up weakened Pokemon. Talking in the context that Fletchling is trying to switch in after a KO, that means its really not that great at revenge killing. Of course, you have stuff like Scraggy and Bellsprout, who are very threatening when set up that Fletchling can revenge kill, but what are you going to do about, say, +2 or +4 Misdreavus that used it's Berry Juice to get back to full health? What if Sticky Web is down and Cranidos is tearing your team to shreds? Priority Acrobatics is good, and the fact that it is Flying-type makes it even better, but relying on one single move to try and revenge kill the entire metagame at any level of HP does not an all-around good revenge killer make. It's very good at cleaning up weakened teams, but I don't think that's particularly broken, because there are quite a few Pokemon capable of the same thing. Scarf Scraggy, for example, I think is even scarier than Fletchling as a late-game sweeper, even without priority.