1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Misdreavus won't be Missed (alternate Ghosts in LC)

Discussion in 'Little Cup' started by eric the espeon, Feb 21, 2010.

?

Which Ghost do you think will be the most common?

  1. Gastly

    72.2%
  2. Duskull

    11.6%
  3. Shuppet

    3.0%
  4. Drifloon

    13.1%
  1. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,694
    Having a Ghost-type has long been almost necessary for a really successful team thanks to their many valuable immunities to common types (Normal, Fighting, and in most cases Ground) and other utility. Since SubSneak Missy was invented (HG/SS adding Nasty Plot helped too) Misdreavus' use has grown to almost totally dominate the other Ghosts and the metagame has shifted hugely to counter it, which made life harder for the other Ghosts in other ways (more Stunky and Munchlax for example).

    With Misdreavus banned from Little Cup a large portion of the ~70% of team than ran it will likely be looking for a replacement Ghost. Here are the choices for other Ghosts in LC with a summery of their abilities and my personal predictions about how they will fare.



    [​IMG]
    Gastly

    Base Stats: 30 / 35 / 30 / 100 / 35 / 80
    With a spread of 36 HP / 36 Def / 196 SpA / 196 Spe Timid: 20 / 9 / 10 / 19 / 10 / 18
    Ability: Levitate
    General attacking moves: Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Hidden Power, Psychic, Giga Drain.
    Tricks up it's sleeve: Explosion, Hypnosis, Substitute, Trick Room, Trick, Destiny Bond, Will-O-Wisp, Sucker Punch, Taunt, Mean Look, Knock Off.

    Of all the possible replacements Gastly is my bet to take over Missy's throne as the king (queen I guess) of Ghosts, it has an wide offensive movepool and one of the highest Special Attack stats in LC as well as a handy secondary STAB. Gastly's real power lies in it's very unpredictable range of tricks up it's sleeve, it can blow up on Pokemon that would otherwise be counters or Sub/Hypnosis in the face of Sucker Punchers. However, it does have extreme 4mss (4 moveslot syndrome) and can never pull off all it's interesting moves while posing a direct threat, and it's speed just misses the 19 mark which along with its horrible defences makes it vastly easier to revenge kill than Missy. It also lacks any viable statup moves, which hurts a bit.


    [​IMG]
    Duskull
    Base Stats: 20 / 40 / 90 / 30 / 90 / 25
    With a spread of 196 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpD Impish: 21 / 10 / 18 / 9 / 18 / 9
    With a spread of 196 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD Impish: 21 / 13 / 17 / 9 / 16 / 9
    Ability: Levitate
    General attacking moves: Shadow Sneak, Shadow Punch, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Shadow Ball, Return, Body Slam, Hidden Power.
    Supportive moves: Pain Split, Will-O-Wisp, Trick Room, Trick, Destiny Bond, Substitute, Toxic, Taunt, Mean Look, Knock Off.

    Stat wise Duskull is the polar opposite of Gastly. It has very solid defences, but low speed and poor offensive stats. Duskull also has a much less extensive movepool than Gastly, but it still has enough options to be able to do something useful when it's walling a Fighter or anything without a decent SE or very strong STAB attack. And Shadow Sneak is always a handy STAB priority move, with investment it is slightly stronger than Missy's unboosted one. I would not be surprised if Duskull got a significant boost now that Missy is gone, not only did Missy outclass it almost entirely (at least Gastly had Sludge Bomb, Explosion, and Hypnosis) but Misdreavus was one of the few Pokemon able to comfortably OHKO it.

    [​IMG]
    Shuppet
    Base Stats: 44 / 75 / 35 / 63 / 33 / 45
    With a spread of 84 HP / 236 Atk / 76 Def / 92 SpD Brave 0 Spe IV: 22 / 17 / 11 / 12 / 11 / 8
    With a spread of 84 HP / 76 Atk / 76 Def / 172 SpA / 92 SpD Brave 0 Spe IV: 22 / 15 / 11 / 15 / 11 / 8
    Ability: Insomnia / Frisk
    General attacking moves: Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch, Return, Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Psychic.
    Supportive moves: Pain Split, Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Trick Room, Mirror Coat, Trick, Destiny Bond, Substitute, Toxic, Taunt, Knock Off.

    Shuppet is possibly the most niche of those Ghosts, on one hand it is the most reliable Trick Room lead thanks to Insomnia and has a nice array of status and other annoying moves to go with its good Attack and STAB Shadow Sneak. On the other it's defenses are poor, though not as bad a Gastly's, and it outside Shadow Sneak and the redundant coverage and priority which Sucker Punch offers it lacks physical movepool. Going put special leaves it horribly outclassed by Gastly, and mixed requires splitting EVs which weakens you overall. I think that there are a few fun and effective Shuppet sets waiting to be found, and now that it's not under Missy's shadow (and Shadow Sneak) they will be explored and Shuppet will take a place as a mid-low level OU and staple on TR teams.

    [​IMG]
    Drifloon
    Base Stats: 90 / 50 / 34 / 60 / 44 / 70
    With a spread of 36 HP / 36 Atk / 4 Def / 196 SpA / 4 SpD / 196 Spe Hasty: 26 / 12 / 9 / 15 / 11 / 15
    Ability: Unburden / Aftermath
    General attacking moves: Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Hidden Power, Psychic.
    Tricks up it's sleeve: Explosion, Hypnosis, Substitute, Trick, Destiny Bond, Baton Pass, Calm Mind, Charge Beam, Icy Wind, Memento, Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, Sucker Punch, Taunt, Knock Off.

    It no longer has the title of "Ghost least outclassed by Misdreavus", but it still has the same things that effective differentiate it from the other Ghosts. The key to Drifloon's success has always been its ability: Unburden. Unburden doubles Drifloon's Speed when it loses an item, and with the many useful losable items in LC (think Oran, Petaya, Focus Sash) and the extreme importance of Speed you have a brilliant combination. Drifloon also has a good set of tricks up its sleeve which should allow you to go out with a bang if you encounter something that you can't beat down. When comparing Drifloon's defensive ability to that of the other ghosts it's quite impressive how large an impact that 90 base HP has, Drifloon can (just) survive a Machop Ice Punch, and will often not be 3HKOed by max attack Munchlax Pursuit with Oran. All in all 'floon is easily my favorite Ghost to play with, and I think the one with the most potential when used carefully on the right team, but it is harder to throw onto any team and use well than Gastly.


    So, how do you think the other Ghosts will do without Misdreavus around? What sets do you think will rise to the top?
  2. Black Buddha

    Black Buddha

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,156
    I don't think any Ghost will ever rise to completely fill Misdreavus' void, but in any case...

    Gastly will remain the Scarfer of choice. Being a reliable check to Dratini is great, as well as having powerful STABs in Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb. I don't see much use for a Sub set with 18 Speed...

    Duskull can finally reclaim its role of Bulky Ghost, and can threaten with Will-o-Wisp, as well as carry decent priority in the form of Shadow Sneak. Duskull also works on Semi Hail Stall teams witH Blizzard as well as handy resistances.

    Shuppet remains Shuppet. <3 Shuppet

    Drifloon will become the Subbing ghost like it was, and rightfully so, especially with the ability to use Salac Unburden and sweep lategame without effort. It also has a varied movepool, enough for a lead, and can also EXPLODE with power when its sweep draws to a close.

    Anyways, I dont think we'll ever see the ridiculous 71% usage again, so lets be thankful :)
  3. tennisace

    tennisace
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    Twitter Head

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    6,823
    I personally think that Floon and Gastly will split about equal usage depending on the type of team. For example, on a team that needs a check to Machop really bad, Gastly is the better option. On a team that wants a late-game sweeper, Floon is the better option.

    As for the other two, they'll be relegated to niche roles as they already have; Duskull a defensive "wall" (there are no walls in LC), and Shuppet a niche TR/annoyer lead. Sad, because Duskull is one of my favorite Pokemon =/
  4. franky

    franky
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,486
    In my opinion the closest one to fulfilling the characteristic role is Duskull, minus the great speed and offensive stats.
  5. matty

    matty I did stuff along time ago
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    290
    While I wanted Misdreavus gone all along, I just realized how dependent I was on her in so many of my teams. Of all the suggestions that Eric put up, I used Missy as a Midgame poke that came in on many immunities and put down solid damage. She was bulky enough to survive stuff if you mispredicted along with being strong enough to hurt some menacing things like Tini

    With her gone, the only ghost I'm remotely thinking of using now is Duskull and even then I realize that I'm already missing the speed that I had before. Atleast hes a little bit bulkier and has basically the same moves. And since there will be a lose in dedicated ghost counters, Skull might be able to find a niche in the new metagame. The only thing that worries me now is Scarfchop that are bound to start running wild again. I don't feel that my teams will ever be the same.

    But in the end, fuck her and her amazing stats and good movepool. She sure centralized this metagame and she needed the boot.

    EDIT: Awesome voted wrong
  6. Dubulous

    Dubulous I look just like Buddy Holly.
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,121
    I talked about this a little bit in the discussion thread and in my paragraphs, but it really is a case of "you don't know what you've got till it's gone." It was so easy just to plug in Misdreavus on all of my teams and call it a day; now there's no real "substitute" because it was so good. Bulky ghost roles can fall to Duskull I suppose, and Gastly is still a good scarfer, but all in all teams will not be as good since Misdreavus was able to fulfill so many roles at once. We're going to see a boom in creativity I think, and maybe the metagame will start to settle down for once.
  7. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    7,742
    I'd love to say I didn't see that coming.

    No ghost can fill the void that Misdreavus made. It's like trying to fill the void of Garchomp. Obviously pokemon like Machop just got more powerful (hint: Stunky is still a good pokemon to use with Machop), and people will probably be more willing to adapt. To me that's silly since nobody really bothered to try and adapt to Missy in the first place. Stating "Misdreavus's best two counters/checks (Stunky + Munchlax) can't reliably beat her" doesn't mean she is OMG BROKEN UBER, it means maybe you haven't looked hard enough for good counters/checks. You obviously don't need Stunky or Munchlax to beat Misdreavus or a team with Misdreavus on it.

    Whatever, I'll just wait for Shoddy 2. In the meantime I'll have fun with this new metagame.
  8. Universal Berry

    Universal Berry

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Messages:
    263
    I think gastly will be the most common but still think Drifloon is the best. Huge movepool, Unburden and explosion makes him a perfect late-game sweeper.
  9. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    Messages:
    5,580
    Gasty for sure. No question.

    In fact we even have some evidence (LC Strike Out Tourny) that Gastly will be next. It has a monstrous SpA stat, decent Speed, and a secondary STAB in Sludge Bomb.
  10. Maris

    Maris

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2009
    Messages:
    149
    I see a MASSIVe abra/gastly increase as stunky usage goes down. followed by a spike in stunky. in other words no poke will dominate now. the meta will constantly shift. but all being said gastly is going to be "top dog" of the ghosts with 2 great STABS and a massive spA it will be the ghost of choice for many LC players
  11. HATrick

    HATrick

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    28
    My guess is that Ghastly will see a usage increase, but it will stay as a scarfer. 18 Speed hurts it alot, even with a large movepool. Duskull will also see more use, but its mediocre offense hurts it. Abra, Slowpoke, and other psychics should see more use now that Misdreavus is gone, but Stunky may still remain on some teams.
  12. v

    v I'm on your six
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    ULTRA Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2008
    Messages:
    3,875
    I actually almost never used Misdreavus, believe it or not. I also have never specifically used a Pokemon to deal with her and just her, as many people have with Stunky. I did have checks, yes, but none solely designated to "ghost killer." So, my team-building will remain unaffected by this. I'd bet that I've used Scarf Gastly longer than anyone else and I'll continue to do so. Tricking away your scarf is great but it's a really unorthodox move on your part, but a very crippling one. With the scarf gone, you can pound the hell out of your opponent or just explode. Tbh, until Oran is working properly I don't see much of a future for Drifloon. I mean, it's good and all but there are just many other set-up mons available that are more reliable, like agility chinchou or ddtini. Duskull will replace Missy on my silly Stall team, but other than that I'm a Gastly man at heart!
  13. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    Messages:
    5,580
    Maybe you should have just used Missy on team "ImmuneVader"....but probably not. Scarf Gastly has always been better than Scarf Missy.

    The main team "hit" by this will be the double Ghost teams (AKA ME FFF).

    The main reason Missy was so damn good as a double Ghost mon is because it didn't "just" do that, it did "everything". I'm sure we've all been swept by Misdreavus behind a Substitute before, even if it hasn't been the main focus of the team - if you haven't then you haven't been playing enough.

    Missy is usually just the glue for people's teams. It can take almost "any" Pokemon out, as well as offering some excellent defensive synergy. No other ghost does this.

    Gastly on the other hand has always been a better Scarfer. I'm wondering if it's time to bring back SubLO Gastly?

    Drifloon is also cool since it is no longer hit by Shadow Sneak after it Subs down to its pinch Berry.
  14. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,542
    Superior Duskull is Superior. It's still the only Ghost with the remotest chance to take on non-SD Gligar since it alone possesses Ice Beam. Duskull is a great team player and none of the other remaining Ghosts can switch into Ice Beam without risking a follow-up KO by Shadow Sneak. Duskull also has the best defense against Pursuit and Shadow Sneak itself, as well as Calm Mind (which Missy no longer outclasses).

    By the power of Duskull...

    I have the power!
  15. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,658
    Duskull is going to be a big pokemon in the new meta, particularly as I see ScarfChop usage rising. Obviously, Gastly is still a good check to ScarfChop, but it is far too easy to trap and KO with Munchlax - Duskull can use Will-o-Wisp and its solid defenses to beat it even better than Missy could. Also, if you have Scarf Gastly, you probably don't have another Scarfed revenge-killer, exacerbating your ScarfChop weakness.
  16. Dubulous

    Dubulous I look just like Buddy Holly.
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,121
    Without a doubt Misdreavus was the glue to most teams, as it was a solid check to a lot of threats. I've been saying this all along, really, but I don't believe that one ghost will really dominate usage. Each of the remaining Ghosts have their own niches: Duskull is more defensive, Gastly is more offensive, Drifloon is a set-up sweeper, and Shuppet sets up TR. The only Ghost I don't see being used very much is Shuppet, since non-rain themed teams are inconsistent, which is an important aspect to have on a team in a metagame with as small a playerbase as this one.

    Gastly will probably be used most often, since our metagame is based around offense and it's stupidly easy to just slap a Scarf on it and spam Shadow Ball, but they each have their own merits.
  17. Banryu

    Banryu

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,740
    <3 Shuppet.

    I should make some more shuppet teams and get testing... got an analysis to write~
  18. MegaKick

    MegaKick

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,482
    really, the way I see it, people who used misdreavus for offense will be using scarf ghastly or drifloon, those who used missy as a defensive immunity poke will go with duskull, who can actually take a hit, unlike ghastly, and has the same typing. Its that simple
  19. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    Messages:
    5,580
    The trouble with replacing Missy on "any" team is that none of those Pokemon have Missy's incredible offensive capabilities and its bulk. That's why Misdreavus was so strong in the first place.
  20. Son_of_Shadoo

    Son_of_Shadoo

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    2,958
    ^Not to mention the fact that Missy had priority too, possible the most important thing in LC, imo.
  21. Dubulous

    Dubulous I look just like Buddy Holly.
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,121
    Gastly has priority as well, in the form of Sucker Punch.

    I've been having a lot of success with Drifloon. The Ice weakness kind of sucks, but when Unburden activates Drifloon has a real chance to sweep. It's also decently bulky, which is nice for safely activating Unburden. It's awesome getting hit, healing up with Oran, having my speed doubled, and getting up a Substitute in the same turn. It usually spells doom for the attacker. It also makes a nice switch into Gligar, who really hates being burned.

    In case anyone was wondering, this is the set I've been using:

    Drifloon @ Oran Berry
    Timid Nature (+ Spe, - Atk)
    116 HP / 196 Spe / 196 SpA
    Unburden
    - Shadow Ball
    - Thunderbolt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Substitute
  22. Son_of_Shadoo

    Son_of_Shadoo

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    2,958
    Sucker Punch is pretty unreliable, and Gastly's attack sucks. But, point taken.
  23. Banryu

    Banryu

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,740
    Why not HP Fight, out of curiosity? =0 Surely you have some EVs to spare to get the full value in Spe and SpA, and not having HP gives you trouble with Munchy, doesn't it? =\ (not that he isn't already bothered by Wisp, but still...)

    Now with Shuppet this is a different story, because Shuppet can't run HP Fight without having his SpA be one point lower than if he has Tbolt, due to the nature of his base stats. =\ Which kinda sucks.

    But with Drifloon, you don't really have that problem, which is good... it's an option, anyway.
  24. Lord Liam

    Lord Liam

    Joined:
    May 16, 2009
    Messages:
    348
    I am currently using Gastly to replace Missy and I am having great success with a moveset of Substitute / Thunderbolt / Sludge Bomb / Shadow Ball and an EV spread of Timid 36 HP 36 Defense 196 SpA and Speed. With it's outstanding base Special Attack of 100 and a decent base 80 speed it can break holes in teams and help some of my other sweepers (DRATINI). It can also use priority with Sucker Punch that with Life Orb doesn't do damage too shabby. For my team Gastly has performed better than Missy which is awesome.
  25. Dubulous

    Dubulous I look just like Buddy Holly.
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,121
    The spread I use "maximizes" (quotations because I haven't actually calculated the efficiency of the spread) Drifloon's bulk while still having max SpA and max Spe. 116 EVs on Base 90 HP puts Drifloon at 27 HP, or two points more than minimum. I considered HP Fighting, but it's not going to do much to Munchlax anyway, and I decided that the extra point in HP was worth hitting Munchlax harder.

    Also I'm interested in how you are running a set with five moves, Lord Liam.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)