I'm not sure what you mean/why you expect it to do that- if for example, you bring in two ludicolo in TS, they will still both get +15 in each stat, not +30. If the boost is solely applied to the mon holding the item, why would it apply to the opponent?
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Mix-and-Mega — Now with Primals!
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This seems pretty interesting so I wanted to post some stuff that I thought would be pretty fun.
Manaphy @ Absolite
Ability: Hydration -> Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Scald
- Energy Ball
- Psychic
100/120/100/140/100/140
With Absolite, Manaphy gets a much higher SpA and speed to abuse for tail glow sweeps. I thought this would be really great since Manaphy's meh speed is part of what stops it from sweeping many other teams so with 140 base speed it's going to outspeed a lot more things. Magic Bounce is really cool as well because it allows it to set up on more defensive pokemon and it can't be para'd mid Tail Glow sweep. The coverage in the set could be changed around to whatever your team needs. And if you can manage to get two Tail Glows up the coverage probably won't even matter at that point since you'll be doing so much damage anyway.
Volcarona @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 248 HP / 120 Def / 140 Spe
Bold Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Giga Drain
- Roost
85/90/85/185/105/100
This is pretty ridiculous I think. Defensively, Red Orb removes one of volc's weaknesses and patches up it's shitty defense a bit. Offensively, holy shit lol. Volc gets 185 Spa on top of sun boosted STAB with Quiver Dance. So when facing unprepared teams this could sweep pretty easily. But it still gets stopped in its tracks by Aerilate Extreme Speed users & certain Blue Orb mons could be an annoyance too, so there's that to watch out for. :)
Manaphy @ Absolite
Ability: Hydration -> Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Scald
- Energy Ball
- Psychic
100/120/100/140/100/140
With Absolite, Manaphy gets a much higher SpA and speed to abuse for tail glow sweeps. I thought this would be really great since Manaphy's meh speed is part of what stops it from sweeping many other teams so with 140 base speed it's going to outspeed a lot more things. Magic Bounce is really cool as well because it allows it to set up on more defensive pokemon and it can't be para'd mid Tail Glow sweep. The coverage in the set could be changed around to whatever your team needs. And if you can manage to get two Tail Glows up the coverage probably won't even matter at that point since you'll be doing so much damage anyway.
Volcarona @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 248 HP / 120 Def / 140 Spe
Bold Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Giga Drain
- Roost
85/90/85/185/105/100
This is pretty ridiculous I think. Defensively, Red Orb removes one of volc's weaknesses and patches up it's shitty defense a bit. Offensively, holy shit lol. Volc gets 185 Spa on top of sun boosted STAB with Quiver Dance. So when facing unprepared teams this could sweep pretty easily. But it still gets stopped in its tracks by Aerilate Extreme Speed users & certain Blue Orb mons could be an annoyance too, so there's that to watch out for. :)
Base stats are the species' stats. I don't know how Showdown would choose to handle instructions to the effect of "the holder gets +x to y base stat", but one of the possibilities would be "there's a Pokemon in this battle holding z Mega Stone, so its species has such-and-such stat modifications in this battle". This would in turn affect any enemy of the same species, completely inappropriately.
Something to add on the count of Red Orb Volcarona is that while an opponent can run plain Heatran, in practice this probably won't happen, and the only item it can hold that re-create's Heatran's Standard ability to hard-wall Volcarona is the Blue Orb, which is a questionable option for a Fire/Steel type with no Water coverage, no Hurricane, no Thunder... so you can almost assume that Volcarona isn't having to worry about Heatran hard-walling it, where Heatran is one of the things that really kills Volcarona's potential in Standard.This seems pretty interesting so I wanted to post some stuff that I thought would be pretty fun.
Manaphy @ Absolite
Ability: Hydration -> Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Scald
- Energy Ball
- Psychic
100/120/100/140/100/140
With Absolite, Manaphy gets a much higher SpA and speed to abuse for tail glow sweeps. I thought this would be really great since Manaphy's meh speed is part of what stops it from sweeping many other teams so with 140 base speed it's going to outspeed a lot more things. Magic Bounce is really cool as well because it allows it to set up on more defensive pokemon and it can't be para'd mid Tail Glow sweep. The coverage in the set could be changed around to whatever your team needs. And if you can manage to get two Tail Glows up the coverage probably won't even matter at that point since you'll be doing so much damage anyway.
Volcarona @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 248 HP / 120 Def / 140 Spe
Bold Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Giga Drain
- Roost
85/90/85/185/105/100
This is pretty ridiculous I think. Defensively, Red Orb removes one of volc's weaknesses and patches up it's shitty defense a bit. Offensively, holy shit lol. Volc gets 185 Spa on top of sun boosted STAB with Quiver Dance. So when facing unprepared teams this could sweep pretty easily. But it still gets stopped in its tracks by Aerilate Extreme Speed users & certain Blue Orb mons could be an annoyance too, so there's that to watch out for. :)
I don't want this thread to die :(
Mandibuzz (F) @ Sablenite
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Foul Play
- Roost
- Toxic / Defog / Whirlwind / Tailwind
- Toxic / Defog / Whirlwind / Tailwind
(110/75/155/75/150/50)
Seems like an easy way to make stall teams is (for the most part, some like other mega stones better) just slap Sablenite on your Pokemon. Sablenite Mandibuzz has some pretty great bulk, as well as being able to adapt to what your team needs with its last 2 move slots, as all it really needs for itself is recovery and Foul Play. 110/155/150 bulk is pretty nuts, to say the least, and Dark/Flying is a nice defensive typing to have.
Mandibuzz (F) @ Sablenite
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Foul Play
- Roost
- Toxic / Defog / Whirlwind / Tailwind
- Toxic / Defog / Whirlwind / Tailwind
(110/75/155/75/150/50)
Seems like an easy way to make stall teams is (for the most part, some like other mega stones better) just slap Sablenite on your Pokemon. Sablenite Mandibuzz has some pretty great bulk, as well as being able to adapt to what your team needs with its last 2 move slots, as all it really needs for itself is recovery and Foul Play. 110/155/150 bulk is pretty nuts, to say the least, and Dark/Flying is a nice defensive typing to have.
Oh, we'll be fine. That looks like a freaking awesome stallmon, and it definitely can justify getting that precious Sablenite.
You're right, though, we better not let this thread die. I know we're basically only theorymonning for an idea that will take some time to come to fruition if it does at all, but that's actually fun.
Edit, probably knowing nobody's going to see this, but I'd rather not break the double-post rule or wait for somebody else to bump. Anyway, cool Charizardite Y set...
Moltres @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Pressure -> Drought
Stats: 90/120/90/175/115/90
EVs: 4 Def/252 SpA/252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Fire Blast
-Solar Beam
-Roost
-Agility
Here's another of my "And you thought this was scary" sets. The "this", as you may have ascertained, is Mega Charizard Y's famous Sun-Boosted Fire Blast, so powerful off 159 SpA it's considered suboptimal to run secondary STAB. Charizard can find its role usurped in this meta by, strangely enough, the other Fire/Flying type in Kanto. While Zard certainly has a better speed tier and access to a good third attack in Dragon Pulse, Moltres counters with better defenses of 90/90/115, access to a boosting move (albeit one it actually needs), and an even higher SpA of a whopping 175.
Moves are self-explanatory. Fire Blast and Solar Beam (as long as sun's up!) together destroy everything that isn't a quad-resist (so, say, another Fire/Flying type), and the bird mercifully can Roost. Access to Agility allows Moltres to compensate for its mediocre speed tier. EVs are a standard special sweeper spread and a Timid nature (because, again, you need the speed).
You're right, though, we better not let this thread die. I know we're basically only theorymonning for an idea that will take some time to come to fruition if it does at all, but that's actually fun.
Edit, probably knowing nobody's going to see this, but I'd rather not break the double-post rule or wait for somebody else to bump. Anyway, cool Charizardite Y set...
Moltres @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Pressure -> Drought
Stats: 90/120/90/175/115/90
EVs: 4 Def/252 SpA/252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Fire Blast
-Solar Beam
-Roost
-Agility
Here's another of my "And you thought this was scary" sets. The "this", as you may have ascertained, is Mega Charizard Y's famous Sun-Boosted Fire Blast, so powerful off 159 SpA it's considered suboptimal to run secondary STAB. Charizard can find its role usurped in this meta by, strangely enough, the other Fire/Flying type in Kanto. While Zard certainly has a better speed tier and access to a good third attack in Dragon Pulse, Moltres counters with better defenses of 90/90/115, access to a boosting move (albeit one it actually needs), and an even higher SpA of a whopping 175.
Moves are self-explanatory. Fire Blast and Solar Beam (as long as sun's up!) together destroy everything that isn't a quad-resist (so, say, another Fire/Flying type), and the bird mercifully can Roost. Access to Agility allows Moltres to compensate for its mediocre speed tier. EVs are a standard special sweeper spread and a Timid nature (because, again, you need the speed).
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Dis thread has died :(
Charges up paddles CLEAR!
Some neat gimmicks
Ninetales @ Houndoominite
New stats:73/76/115/111/110/120
Ability: Drought->Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Solar Beam/ Hidden Power Ice
- Fire Blast
- Nasty Plot
- Hidden Power Ice/energy Ball
A sweeper that can act on its own, but only for 5 turns. With the solar power boost, ninetales has the equivalent of a 170 Sp. Atk stat along with sun boosted fire blast, decent bulk and good speed. Nasty plot is if you manage to force a switch or your sun runs out. Energy ball can be used over solar beam if you're not confident in the sun lasting long enough
Rotom-Wash @ Latiasite
New stats: 50/85/137/135/125/86
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split/ Thunderbolt
- Hydro Pump
Latiasite rotom functions almost identically to standard Rotom in OU, but with better bulk.
GRENADE!! (Lickilicky) @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine->Pixilate
New stats:110/125/115/120/95/50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Explosion/return
- Belly Drum/Protect
- Heal Bell/Earthquake
- Wish/dragon tail
A hard hitting thing that goes boom, or supports the team, your choice.
2 Calcs against slowbronite blissey and sablenite cress:252+ Atk Pixilate Lickilicky Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 185-218 (41.6 - 49%)
252+ Atk Pixilate Lickilicky Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 314-370 (43.9 - 51.8%)
Thus proving that cress is bulkier than Blissey and that Lickylicky hits stupid hard. But then again:
+6 252+ Atk Pixilate Lickilicky Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 1252-1474 (175.3 - 206.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Pixilate Lickilicky Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 738-869 (166.2 - 195.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also, If its okay, i would like to discuss Offense vs. Stall for this Meta in this thread, just to keep it going. After all we have both REALLY stupid walls and RIDICULOUS wallbreakers and sweepers.
Charges up paddles CLEAR!
Some neat gimmicks
Ninetales @ Houndoominite
New stats:73/76/115/111/110/120
Ability: Drought->Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Solar Beam/ Hidden Power Ice
- Fire Blast
- Nasty Plot
- Hidden Power Ice/energy Ball
A sweeper that can act on its own, but only for 5 turns. With the solar power boost, ninetales has the equivalent of a 170 Sp. Atk stat along with sun boosted fire blast, decent bulk and good speed. Nasty plot is if you manage to force a switch or your sun runs out. Energy ball can be used over solar beam if you're not confident in the sun lasting long enough
Rotom-Wash @ Latiasite
New stats: 50/85/137/135/125/86
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split/ Thunderbolt
- Hydro Pump
Latiasite rotom functions almost identically to standard Rotom in OU, but with better bulk.
GRENADE!! (Lickilicky) @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine->Pixilate
New stats:110/125/115/120/95/50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Explosion/return
- Belly Drum/Protect
- Heal Bell/Earthquake
- Wish/dragon tail
A hard hitting thing that goes boom, or supports the team, your choice.
2 Calcs against slowbronite blissey and sablenite cress:252+ Atk Pixilate Lickilicky Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 185-218 (41.6 - 49%)
252+ Atk Pixilate Lickilicky Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 314-370 (43.9 - 51.8%)
Thus proving that cress is bulkier than Blissey and that Lickylicky hits stupid hard. But then again:
+6 252+ Atk Pixilate Lickilicky Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 1252-1474 (175.3 - 206.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Pixilate Lickilicky Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 738-869 (166.2 - 195.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also, If its okay, i would like to discuss Offense vs. Stall for this Meta in this thread, just to keep it going. After all we have both REALLY stupid walls and RIDICULOUS wallbreakers and sweepers.
I think offense seems like the most obvious choice, but there are some seriously stupid stallmons out there. I'm seriously kinda thinking blessed might need to be banned. It has the most ridiculous defenses. Ever. 255/60/1
As for offense, I think Lando T probs needs to be banned. I made a case against it a while back. It's just too powerful. Kyub w/ a mega sounds easier to handle than Landoge (Except Pinsirite, Altarianite, or Glailitite, I guess, but the first two can also be used w/ horrific effect by Lando, as well as the last, to a lesser extent).
I don't know which will be better. I think offense sounds easier, but stall just sounds like it could be too much to handle, as it stands. Idk tho, I don't have any experience yet, obviously.
Gonna double post here so I don't have to try to edit it in on mobile.
Modest is almost undoubtedly better. Your speed is going to be doubled, so 279 is not bad at all. That puts you at a horrific 558. It outpaces everything short of scarfers or +1's w/ 372 or higher speed. The only thing that could outspeed you unboosted is jolly exca in sand. Which won't be a thing here, obviously. Diancie at +2 would scare you, but nbd. Pidgeotite would be cool too.
Edit: and actually, since you aren't running flying stab, red orb would be better in every way. It doesn't end after 5 turns, so agility would be far more effective. And you're less weak to SR
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Out of curiousity, are we gonna do it so you cant have teams with more than 1 user of each megastone? Like only 1 user of Sablenite, etc. Etc..
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
Ooh, okay. Musta missed that.
Since you only get one copy of a Mega Stone/Orb, it's more accurate to say "Sablenite is an obvious way to improve a stallmon". Can't run a team of nothing but Sablenite!I don't want this thread to die :(
Mandibuzz (F) @ Sablenite
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Foul Play
- Roost
- Toxic / Defog / Whirlwind / Tailwind
- Toxic / Defog / Whirlwind / Tailwind
(110/75/155/75/150/50)
Seems like an easy way to make stall teams is (for the most part, some like other mega stones better) just slap Sablenite on your Pokemon. Sablenite Mandibuzz has some pretty great bulk, as well as being able to adapt to what your team needs with its last 2 move slots, as all it really needs for itself is recovery and Foul Play. 110/155/150 bulk is pretty nuts, to say the least, and Dark/Flying is a nice defensive typing to have.
The real issue is the distribution of Mega stuff. There's a very large number of strongly offensive Mega Stones (+Orbs), where there's a much more limited number of defensive Mega Stones, in terms of stats and Abilities. So a defensive team is much more predictable than in offensive team in the Mega Stones it's going to be carrying, making it easier to prepare for defensive teams -to a certain extent they all look alike.
Worse yet stall effectively completely loses some of its most valuable tools, because the Ability is unrepresented on Mega Evolutions and the power level of Ubers/Mega Stone-holders is so far ahead of regular OU stallmons that, for instance, the Unaware Pokemon are effortlessly shunted aside by setup sweepers. No Regenerator cores, because either you don't have Regenerator or you're very weak. etc.
While this applies to offensive teams in some ways, it's a complicated topic in others. You're not running Gale Wings in Mix-and-Mega, because Talonflame isn't that great a base and it loses Gale Wings if it wants to keep up statistically with everything else, and anyway you don't actually miss it that much because the biggest value is re-created and in fact improved upon by slapping Pinsirite or Salamencite onto an Extreme Speed Pokemon. (Not even getting into the more complicated comparisons of Altarianite, Gardevoirite, and Glalite) So a lot of offensive roles just shuffle around the exact way you accomplish them -Flying type priority revenger of abominable firepower? Who needs Talonflame, I've got Pinsirite Lucario/Linoone/Dragonite/Suicune/Raikou/Entei/Arcanine/Zygarde/Raichu to do the job even better.
It does help stall's case that it gets to create some ridiculous abominations far beyond anything in OU or even metas like Stat Switch, such as Sablenite Blissey, so it's possible it will keep up or even prove to dominate the metagame contrary to all expectations, but overall I suspect Mix-and-Mega hurts stall more than it helps it. (Especially since this is an Uber-based meta where Shed Shell is effectively not a real option, so Mega Gengar may prove able to trap and kill stuff like Sablenite Blissey very reliably)
Keep in mind Altarianite adds Fairy typing to the holder, so Landorus-Therian gets the full effect of Altarianite. (Not Glalite, though -you really need to already be an Ice type to get the best effect from it)
Quite true, I forgot the Orb gave you the same SpA boost. On the whole, though, I have to say I'm pretty proud of that bird. Moltres is among the most potents Fire-type in terms of raw power outside of Ubers, and thankfully it's a special attacker to take advantage of the Orb.
Now for its counterpart. Can the Blue Orb (more physically oriented, of course) pull the same work in the hands of a capable mon? I certainly think so, but of course, you need a physical Water with an ability you can afford to ditch (sorry, Azumarill) and a movepool.
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Well, obviously gyarados works well
Gyarados @ Blue Orb
95/175/79/90/120/81
Intimidate
-Dragon Dance
-Waterfall/Aqua Tail
-Earthquake
-Ice Fang/Ice Beam/Thunder
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
On this episode of Pikachuun Z Kai, I ignore my own words and code the metagame anyway
[12:11:02] Hack's BH test alt: chuun, how did it go?
[12:11:16] %Pikachuun: It went "stop changing azumarill's secondary type to fighting"
[12:11:02] Hack's BH test alt: chuun, how did it go?
[12:11:16] %Pikachuun: It went "stop changing azumarill's secondary type to fighting"
don't forget to post in the OM code thread.
That's why I said glailite to a lesser exctant, and while it isn't as great because of the lack of absolutely ridonkulous new stab, it still gets really good coverage and it's almost the same as stab in terms of boost, while not quite as strong. Also, it doesn't actually give you that awful ice typing.
is this really happening?!?! I kinda gave up on this meta actually happening after a while.
This is now playable on the Aqua Server! Head there now if you want to play it after 17 pages of theorymonning.
Tagging FlameUser64 since he owns the thread.
http://aqua.psim.us
Tagging FlameUser64 since he owns the thread.
http://aqua.psim.us
FlameUser technically owns it, but he's been dead for months. I'm not even sure how long it's been. Ghoul King helped create it though, so I think he's basically the closest thing to the owner rn.
It was originally my idea (By virtue of suggesting an alternative way of handling Eevee General's Mega REvolution and derailing the thread), but FlameUser64 is the one who actually submitted it in OM Submissions.
Making team right now.
EDIT: Team has been made, now I just need people to play(test) with.
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Im going home from school in an hour. I can play after that.
Edit: Home now, whenever somebody wants to play just lemme know. My names ineedjuice on the server.
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Tagging Pikachuun
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-mixandmega-360
First game of the meta ever!
Things to note: the sprites are of the Mega Evolutions, not of the Pokemon becoming them. This is strange, though I don't think it's a bad thing. (It at least makes it clear what Mega Stone is being held by the Pokemon... though it also makes it easy to lose track of what the base Pokemon was!)
Bug that is why I'm tagging Pikachuun: Altarianite turned Dragonite into Dragon/Flying. Huzzahwha? Looking through the code, I think I see the problem: Mega Altaria isn't in the list at all!
In all other respects it performed beautifully. (I somehow spaced and used Chansey instead of Blissey without thinking about it, but that's OK, because it served as a test to show that NFEs are exempt from Mega Evolution)
Only tests I have not actually performed are for Ubers being barred/Huge Power and Pure Power being barred from non-such Pokemon/other verboten things, but I'm less concerned about those. (Well, and I haven't properly tested Aggronite yet)
Also the match wasn't much of a match because InfernapeTropius11 didn't have a Mix And Mega team and used his Monotype team, but hey, the meta works!
REJOICE!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-mixandmega-360
First game of the meta ever!
Things to note: the sprites are of the Mega Evolutions, not of the Pokemon becoming them. This is strange, though I don't think it's a bad thing. (It at least makes it clear what Mega Stone is being held by the Pokemon... though it also makes it easy to lose track of what the base Pokemon was!)
Bug that is why I'm tagging Pikachuun: Altarianite turned Dragonite into Dragon/Flying. Huzzahwha? Looking through the code, I think I see the problem: Mega Altaria isn't in the list at all!
In all other respects it performed beautifully. (I somehow spaced and used Chansey instead of Blissey without thinking about it, but that's OK, because it served as a test to show that NFEs are exempt from Mega Evolution)
Only tests I have not actually performed are for Ubers being barred/Huge Power and Pure Power being barred from non-such Pokemon/other verboten things, but I'm less concerned about those. (Well, and I haven't properly tested Aggronite yet)
Also the match wasn't much of a match because InfernapeTropius11 didn't have a Mix And Mega team and used his Monotype team, but hey, the meta works!
REJOICE!
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
At least I helped you ;; icrievrytiem
But yeah, this is really cool! I do think the sprite should stay the same as the base forme, partially because it is scary to have a venusaur turn into a PrimalDon, and mostly, as Ghoul King said, so you can keep track of the base forme (allowing you to do /dt to check stats), but I do think it should still reveal what Stone/Orb you are holding (debatable, as it either makes predictions easier, or you can not reveal what it is for mindgames, although I personally think the former is better).
Mono>ubers confurmed o3o
I have a suggestion for the sprites. Have a greyscale version of the irl mega behind whatever pokemon mega'd into it.
That'd take a ton of extra work and coding to do.
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