Ladder Mix and Mega

This is true, but they don't only fulfil that one role. When a specific threat forces you to run VERY specific things to beat it that don't work on many teams/only do one thing and nothing else, that's when it becomes the kind of over-centralizing we're talking about here. Like greninja forcing you to run P2, and stuff like that. Dragonite checks basically have a loose formula that you have to follow, but with the ability to essentially build a non to fill a role on your team, it's not hard to come up w/ a Dnite check. And, while hardly anything can check both Pinsirite and altarianite, that's basically all you have to prepare for. And again, it's not that hard to scout w/ protect.
I'm not sure if you're proban or not now. If not you seem to be grasping at straws. If you could use the "scout with protect" logic then you could unban things like Arceus in ou because you could just scout if its E-killer or not. Aslong as you're creating the scenario so that you predict, it becomes a leveled playing field for your opponent, in other words, as you scout for fire punch on your ferrothorn he could predict this, go for dragon dance and THEN sweep your team, it's a double-edged sword that's best to be lft unopened.
 
I've been using CurseLax as well, but I've been running it with Slowbronite. Shell Armor is really nice, and the extra 70 Defense is super clutch and makes setting up so easy. Banettite sounds really good too though, I should try it out.

Another less obvious choice I've been using is Mewtwonite-X Mew. I'm running Zen Headbutt / Drain Punch / Swords Dance / Sucker Punch, which has amazing coverage and is absurdly strong with Fighting STAB and 180 Attack. It's a great offensive answer to Sablenite Blissey and in general does a great job of breaking fat teams. Although the metagame is primarily offensive, I have run into a bit of stall (which was easy to break with all of CurseLax, standard Mega Gengar, and this set), but in general you occasionally run into problematic defensive Pokemon on more balanced teams, which Mew almost never struggles with.

Shoutouts as well to Aggronite Volcarona, which becomes Bug / Steel, gets much better defense and Filter to ease setup, and resists Fairy and Ice Extreme Speeds and is neutral to Flying Extreme Speeds. I might try Sablenite on this though, not sure what is best yet. Bug / Steel typing is actually pretty weak because there are a lot of Fire-types and Pokemon with Fire-type coverage, but being weak to Aerilate Extreme Speed is kind of shitty.

Speaking of Extreme Speed, can we ban it? It makes the metagame so much more offensive and is just really dumb to face. It's pretty difficult to prepare for because they carry all kinds of different coverage. Dragonite has coverage for almost if not every Flying or Fairy resist, Entei has Sacred Fire for Steel-types, Arcanine has Close Combat and Flare Blitz for every Steel-type, Lucario has Close Combat for Steel-types, Zygarde while less common has Earthquake for Steel-, Poison-, and Rock-types, etc. This is all not to mention that all of these Pokemon can run the less consistent but still dangerous Glalite for Ice-type Extreme Speed, and they don't even have to have terrible typing for it. You can't even predict which Mega Stone Dragonite will be holding (Pinsirite/Salamencite or Altarianite), which makes it even more difficult to handle (though at least Steel-types resist both Flying and Fairy, Dragonite will have coverage for them). Basically, Extreme Speed centers offense around itself, and offense is naturally superior to balance and stall in this metagame because there are so many insane possibilities for wallbreakers and cleaners, this making the metagame itself centered around Extreme Speed.
Slowbronite Curse Lax? Hmmmmm. 160/110/135/95/110/30. Well, its Bulk is significantly better. And uncrit-able is a nice bonus as well.

Extreme Speed: yea, this move is pretty centralizing. Every team HAS to pack at least one(especially if you're taking the offensive route)every team. As Hollywood said, all Espeeders has some type of way of "overcoming" supposed checks/counters. Entei has Sacred fire that cripples just about anything that isn't fire. Lucario is versatile asf, It can run Either Glalitile, Pinisirite, or Altaranite. But even then, it can effectively abuse other stones not necessarily having to be one of these three which makes it even harder to guess what stone its running. But you could say "Well, the same applies to anything else that can abuse multiple stones" well, yea true. until you consider the fact, not everything gets EXTREME SPEED! The most powerful priority move in the damn game. Bypassing any Attempts of you reliable revenge killing. Against bulky(slower)checks, such as Phon, OrdHippo, Slowbronite anything that's an all-around bulky water type(or just become phatass Physical walls, in Alomomola's cast). Which all can be bypassed one way or another. Let's look at the -Ates Espeeders. Entei, Lucario, Zygarde, Linoone(I'm not sure how effective linoone is), Raichu, Arcanine. That's a total of 7. Each can run an effective -ates Espeeders set, well except Zygarde maybe. I think he's hard walled by(if not all)bulky water types(I'm currently testing Raichu).

I'll support the ban if restriction limit or however this is going to be solved about -Ates being used along with the strongest(i say strongest because SP isnt reliable nor can it bypass other +1 priority 100% of the time)priority move in the game.
 
Does anyone have any thoughts on a good stone/orb choice for Empoleon? Sticking Blue Orb on him seems kind of too easy, effective as it may be ...
 
Honestly Coil Zygarde doesn't even sound bad. Overcome conventional answers to Extreme Speed by boosting Defense instead of Speed like Dragonite does. I'll probably never test it because as I've said before, the metagame heavily favors offense, which means other Extreme Speed Pokemon are just more consistent, but I'm sure it's not bad. I'd favor an Extreme Speed ban rather than throwing more complex bans into the mix, but a Pinsirite, Salamencite, Altarianite, Glalite + Extreme Speed ban would also take care of the problem.

I also don't understand why Shadow Tag is banned. Shadow Tag is far less effective in an offensive metagame because priority is everywhere to pick off offensive trappers and things hit too hard to make defensive ones consistent. Theoretically, Shadow Tag could still be super broken because you could set up on something that can't do much to you and the Mega Evolve and get an ability to help make sweeping easier, but in practice, this is non-existent because the only Shadow Tag Pokemon that can set up, Gothitelle, is terrible in its regular form and doesn't set up on pretty much anything. I don't care as much if Shadow Tag gets unbanned as I do if Extreme Speed in some capacity is banned, but I don't think having it banned is doing anything helpful.
 
Does anyone have any thoughts on a good stone/orb choice for Empoleon? Sticking Blue Orb on him seems kind of too easy, effective as it may be ...
You could try Sablenite, Slowbronite, anything that boast its bulk and offensive abit. Water/Steel is good typing
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
I also don't understand why Shadow Tag is banned. Shadow Tag is far less effective in an offensive metagame because priority is everywhere to pick off offensive trappers and things hit too hard to make defensive ones consistent. Theoretically, Shadow Tag could still be super broken because you could set up on something that can't do much to you and the Mega Evolve and get an ability to help make sweeping easier, but in practice, this is non-existent because the only Shadow Tag Pokemon that can set up, Gothitelle, is terrible in its regular form and doesn't set up on pretty much anything. I don't care as much if Shadow Tag gets unbanned as I do if Extreme Speed in some capacity is banned, but I don't think having it banned is doing anything helpful.
Shadow tag invalidates stall, and since bulk is increased doubly because of its two stats, stall is very possible here. Shadow Tag in this metagame is even worse for stall than it would be normally, just standard mega gengar literally destroys stall teams because there is no shed shell and most of them can't stand up to it and kill it.
 
yeah, i've been running stall and perish gengar is completely impossible to deal with. it definitely deserves the ban imo
stall isn't easy to build in this meta, it's easy to get overloaded by double booster cores like sd luke + dd dnite
there are just too many strong common threats to really cover properly in one team, and the lack of lefties/rocky helm/shed shell doesn't help matters
i can't really complain of course, i chose to run this after all, all the near losses are annoying is all ;_;

anyway, here's a replay where i win against a known player, but it kinda shows how matchup reliant stall in this meta is
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-246364695
 
Team - Sand Standard α:
Sokokyoryu (装甲恐竜, lit. "Armored Dinosaur") the Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Tochikami (土地の神, lit. "Land Kami") the Therian Landorus @ Aggronite
Yogankame (溶岩カメ, lit. "Lava Tortoise") the Heatran @ Latiasite
Kohikigaeru (工場ヒキガエル, lit. "Plant Toad") the Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Suchimoru (スチールモル, lit. "Steel Mole") the Excadrill @ Metagrossite
Tsuyokei (月の妖精, lit. "Moon Fairy") the Clefable @ Sablenite

My team is essentially compromised of a Stall-Biased Balanced core and two setup sweepers - both of whom benefit from Sandstorm in some way. The bulky 'mons and Steel-types generally are able to take most of the Physical attacks in this tier, including - but not limited to - Heatran, Blissey, Landorus-Therian, Cresselia, Clefable, and Skarmory. I will agree with mallpal in that the lack of reliable items other than Stones can be a bit of an issue in regards to their usefulness in turning a game around, especially within Perish Trap, etc. However, I will say that Mega Stones and Orbs aren't always necessary, as probably a majority of us know by now that it's just the preferred method for keeping up in a meta filled with them.

For example, I faced a death sweep at the hands of a core built around Choice Scarf Kyurem-White; and with my Latiasite Heatran's Levitate nulled by Turboblaze, that thing was a slight pain to counter, especially since my team lacks any significant priority and relies solely on speed, bulk, and phazing ability. This just goes to show that normal items can prove to be worth the use, but in most cases, the uses of Mega Stones and Orbs tend to be the preferred method as of now, since this meta is steadily growing. After about two hours of uninterrupted gameplay of the meta, I started seeing more normal items in use.

EDIT: Also with the rise in the advent of Ubers in the meta (i.e. the "Legendary" and "Mythical" Pokémon), I can expect a challenging meta altogether; although, I don't see them most of the time. It causes me wonder how Xerneas, Kyogre, Giratina, Darkrai, and Lugia will fare. (Those five were chosen solely from my own /bad/ experiences fighting them.)
 
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so if mega gengar is the problem, ban mega gengar

and yeah it's definitely shadow tag that's invalidating stall in this meta xD
 
I don't believe it's solely Mega Gengar itself as much as it is its ability in Shadow Tag causing the problems. It does have its mind games, especially with trying to get something of a Pursuit-trapper, etc, on it.

EDIT: Having thought over it, the only real competent users of Gengarite are Gothitelle and Gengar. The former is sort of an underclassed setup sweeper, but can still pick and choose her targets; that, and Trick is useless, as well as the potential Scarf set to a degree. Gengar is - and has been - the true user of Gengarite in that case, since its Perish Trapper set is a complete bane to most stallcores in question. However, as far as its impact on Offensively-inclined members goes, it is comparitively much less troublesome unless you run no priority. Then, the SubProtection after Perish Song dismantles your Bulky Setup Sweeper completely.
 
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Hi guys,

I'm currently #2 on the Mix and Mega ladder using hyper offense (it's only been a day so I expect this to change). Still, I'm 28 and 2, so I'd like to post the team I'm using.


Entei @ Altarianite
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Sacred Fire
- Bulldoze
- Stone Edge

Manaphy @ Absolite
Ability: Hydration
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Scald
- Energy Ball
- Ice Beam

Dragonite @ Pinsirite
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Dance
- Protect
- Earthquake

Heatran @ Diancite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Protect

Archeops @ Salamencite
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Quick Attack
- U-turn
- Head Smash

Victini @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Inferno
- Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Blue Flare

Manaphy leads and usually survives a tail glow. If you are facing a noivern, switch out to Heatran, protect once, and flash cannon to ruin its life.

Everything else is there for late-game cleaning, honestly. Manaphy takes care of most things, EVEN BLISSEY(Sablenite) (It's a 50/50 matchup).

I haven't yet experimented with Mew mostly because Victini can tank two types of -atespeed while Mew cannot. I run pidgeotite over red orb because inferno > damage imo. Entei runs max defense also to check -atespeed and can tank a pinsirite espeed from dragonite before mega. In fact, the only questionable user on this team is Archeops.
 
^AKA the ate clause that happened in bh true if ate speed is too much we can only allow one user of ate and that means no pinisirite dnite and altarianite entei on the same team
 
^AKA the ate clause that happened in bh true if ate speed is too much we can only allow one user of ate and that means no pinisirite dnite and altarianite entei on the same team
I'd prefer this. After looking into -ate for a while, I know why -ate clause exist in BH. Instead of banning -atespeed or something, I'd prefer if we take the same approach as BH and allow only one of any -ate in a team
 
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xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Guys, shadow tag is already banned, its just that Slayer95 has not implemented this along with baton pass clause and the banning of slaking and regigigas.
 
Just a visual glitch. Will fix it -together with some other visual improvements- later.
Fixed

Well then there should be a BP clause here. A quick council vote will fix that.

Slayer95 Shadow tag ban has not been implemented, ran into megagar on ladder.
Shadow Tag ban was already implemented.
Gengarite ban has just now been added as well.

Despite the rule:

— Slaking and Regigigas may not hold any Mega Stones or Orbs. Like Kyurem-Black, they're very ridiculous with a large number of them.

I just fought a Mega Lopunnite-Regigigas.

Just thought I'd report this bug.
Fixed

Keldeo with Mewtwo Mega y Megastone cannot be used and gives an error that Keldeo weight is too low but the explaination of weight reduction says...

"Note that this also applies to weight changes between base form and Mega/Primal form, for the sake of consistency where the moves Low Kick, Grass Knot, Heat Crash, and Heavy Slam are concerned. If a Pokémon's weight would end up being zero or lower from a Mega Stone causing a weight reduction, their weight is instead set to 0.1 kg."

So shouldn't that mean Keldeo should still be usable with Mewtwo Mega Y megastone. Please fix... Thanks ^_^
Fixed

Slayer95 has not implemented this along with baton pass clause.
Eeeh, there is no Baton Pass clause in Ubers nor this meta as far as the "Search" function tells me...
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Does anyone have any thoughts on a good stone/orb choice for Empoleon? Sticking Blue Orb on him seems kind of too easy, effective as it may be ...
You could try Sablenite, Slowbronite, anything that boast its bulk and offensive abit. Water/Steel is good typing
Use aggronite vaporeon, it has insane mixed bulk of 130/120/115, the same great typing, and access to wish for recovery.
 
Restricting -ate users to one per team not only doesn't solve the problem but also doesn't allow the use of any two -ate Mega Stones on the same team regardless of whether or not you're using Extreme Speed, which is the actual problem. It's not like -ate Extreme Speed is only good against offense. It's still at its worst a 104 BP +2 priority move (faster than Prankster from defensive Pokemon) of great offensive typing (Ice, Fairy, and Flying are all incredible, and every good -ate user has coverage for Steel-types). At its best, it's a 156 BP +2 priority move of great offensive typing, which is still stronger than a STAB Earthquake. It also shreds balance because these Pokemon simultaneously act as wallbreakers and cleaners. They can wear down your defensive checks early game with great coverage and then plow through the rest of your team late-game with or without a boost by just clicking Extreme Speed over and over again.

There are also more balanced -ate users with or without priority. Quick Attack -ate Archeops is really fun and not completely busted even though it's super strong, and -ate Landorus-T, which super threatening, loses out on a lot of bulk as soon as it Mega Evolves and loses Intimidate. Both of them are much easier to respond to right off the bat because there are more offensive checks to them that limit their offensive and setup capabilities, respectively. Limiting -ate users to one per team might solve the problem (though I have my doubts), but it also has the potential to hurt teambuilding in order to keep Extreme Speed, a move that is stupid anyways, in the metagame.
 
I fail to see the point of just banning Dragonite, it's the best abuser but Lucario and Entei are both hella good abusers that are capable of beating all of their checks. It's just as restricting so, why not ban -ate + extreme speed
Because that would be a form of complex banning, and limiting Extreme Speed to one user per team sounds more reasonable than banning both it and the -ate Mega Stones altogether. The solution is simple; as hollywood pointed out, it's a very spammable move at best, with the ability to tear to shreds most Balanced cores alongside coverage in the forms of Earthquake and/or Fire- or Fighting-type coverage (latter for Levitate Heatran, etc.). I wouldn't put aside its potential to at least knock dents into Stallcores aswell, and that's something both Dragonite and Lucario excel at doing on their own with their power-boosting moves (which you pointed out), with any potential burners aside.

If anything, I'd say place a restriction on Extreme Speed to one user, and keep the -ate Stones. That way, we don't have the three amigos covering for each corner on the same team, provided that's ever the case. (And if you didn't get the reference, it's essentially Aerilate Dragonite, Refrigerate Lucario, and Pixilate Entei - all with Extreme Speed and a coverage move for opposing Steels: Earthquake, Close Combat, and Sacred Fire, respectively.)

EDIT: ... Don't get me wrong, but I found ironic that Lucario is my second favorite Pokémon of all time, and I don't use it on my team. I've only used it once, and that was to test some builds of mine. I've also seen that build a number of times past, and it's destroyed my team, granted I've usually nuked one or two of them before falling completely.
 
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Besides for -atespeeders, the only Pokemon that really loses on the ban of Extreme Speed is Arceus. I think it's the lowest on the collateral damage list if we just ban Extreme Speed rather than any more complicated bans. Restricting the number of Extreme Speeders in my opinion won't really solve the problem because that just means that instead of having like both Dragonite AND Entei on the team we just have Dragonite.
 
Besides for -atespeeders, the only Pokemon that really loses on the ban of Extreme Speed is Arceus. I think it's the lowest on the collateral damage list if we just ban Extreme Speed rather than any more complicated bans. Restricting the number of Extreme Speeders in my opinion won't really solve the problem because that just means that instead of having like both Dragonite AND Entei on the team we just have Dragonite.
I'm honestly glad we're discussing this.

Let me just say that from my past experiences with working with balanced teams, there is always a solution to this sort of problem. For me, the solutions to the three amigos are as follows:
  • Latiasite Heatran can pretty much wall all of the -ates thanks to its Steel-typing and amazing bulk, and OHKO or heavily damage Dragonite and Entei with Hidden Power Ice and Earth Power, respectively. Dragonite, however, beats Heatran with Superpower.
  • Aggronite Landorus-Therian takes care of Refrigerate Lucario on Turn 1 regardless of whether it uses Close Combat or Extreme Speed; even with zero investment in Attack (which I run), Earthquake is a surefire OHKO (the +30 in Attack is almost the same as a neutral-natured investment).
These two are the only ones I know of that can effectively wall these three. Heatran, to a large extent, can also wall Refrigerate Weavile while having a chance at surviving Low Kick from full health. I will admit that limiting Extreme Speed will only leave one threat, but it does ease teambuilding a little - if not a lot (i.e. you don't need to have both Aggronite Landorus and Latiasite Heatran).
 
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xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
The problem isn't -atespeed as much as it is dragonite alone. Quoting my convo post because it covers substantially why Dragonite is so much harder to handle than any other -atespeeder and the number of substantial positives it holds over the others.

Preparing for one mon should not require two entire teamslots, and unless you want to use a momentum breaker to check both like skarm, offense is forced to dedicate a slot to each set, with viable checks being very limited. Sorry, I don't want to use either heatran or victini + electric type / archeops on every offensive team I make just to check Dragonite alone. Note that all of its checks are easily worn down as well.

Other -atespeeders have notable flaws. Only Lucario gets swords dance, and it can't boost its mediocre speed tier. The rest can't even boost. Dragonite is also the only one with base 174 attack, which is absolutely ridiculous to begin with. Dragonite can boost its speed, making it harder to revenge kill. It is substantially more bulky than the other -atespeeders. Multiscale also makes it incredibly easy to set up even against the most powerful of threats (hi red orb victini without glaciate). Dragonite also has the massive movepool to cover any potential check/counter should it run the right move. Lucario's only notable perk is its secondary fighting stab. Entei's is Sacred Fire. Arcanine's is intimidate and flare blitz. Those are basically their only advantages. All of those are much easier to check because they don't hit nearly as hard, and are easier to stop from setting up. Lucario, getting swords dance, would be the other threatening one to offense, but its not that hard to stop from using swords dance because of its lack of bulk. Pinsirite only reaches 350 speed at Jolly, which isn't that hard to beat - therefore fast threats don't have to worry about coverage to check it either, unlike with Dragonite. Please, lets get this thing out of here.
I also agree that -ate clause isn't the way to go, but rather -atespeed clause. Honestly, there is no good way to keep the metagame intact without several bans or one complex one, which is probably our most viable option at this point.
 

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