Ladder Mix and Mega

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I understand that -atespeed is a problem, but I don't believe banning Espeed is the right solution. Espeed is fine and perfectly competitive, it's not Chatter broken. If Espeed is broken, we would've ban it from BH, STABmons or Inheritance (as I said in my previous post some pages ago).

I'd prefer if we discuss, -ate clause or something. Sure, you guys probably want banning espeed, but you'll be the first one to do so. If other metas doesn't ban espeed, why should MNM ban it? It means the move is fine. Only the abuser isn't.

 

[xJownage]

I honestly am beginning to believe that an espeed ban, or an -atespeed ban, would be the best thing for this metagame. Dragonite being banned and an -ate clause would also be a great option, since there is no longer a boosting -atespeeder that is so difficult to handle. For now, the council is voting on Dragonite and baton pass clause. Afterwards we can talk about extremespeed.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

I understand that -atespeed is a problem, but I don't believe banning Espeed is the right solution. Espeed is fine and perfectly competitive, it's not Chatter broken. If Espeed is broken, we would've ban it from BH, STABmons or Inheritance (as I said in my previous post some pages ago).

I'd prefer if we discuss, -ate clause or something. Sure, you guys probably want banning espeed, but you'll be the first one to do so. If other metas doesn't ban espeed, why should MNM ban it? It means the move is fine. Only the abuser isn't.

But neither of those two are broken. In BH, Ates were limited in the way that they were because anything can run fakespeed. Here I'm fairly certain nothing can. If anything, dragonite is the problem (I still don't believe it is a problem at all, btw). The next best, Lucario is so vastly inferior, between the the two there is really no competition as two which is almost always better. Dragonite has the power to break stall, Espeed to break offense, and the combination of the two to singlehandedly destroy balance. Lucario gets swords dance, but is far frailer, can't boost its speed, and has far less initial power. Also, defensively, it's typing options once mega evo'd are far worse. Priority is everywhere, and an ate clause is frankly very restrictive on offense, as there are so many incredibly fat mons in this meta, that w/o the power that they add, it can be difficult to break them. I'd much rather Espeed be restricted than the ates for this reason

 

[Amy Aoineko]

So...I came up with a new creation:
Jolteon @ Glalitite (Base Stats After Mega Evolution: 65 / 105 / 60 / 150 / 95 / 150 )
Ability: Volt Absorb (Refigerate)
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Timid (or Naive) Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hyper Voice
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball / Quick Attack
Essentially, this set aims to take the "legendary" BoltBeam coverage to a whole new level. Thunderbolt and Hyper Voice are staples on the set as they create said combination. The other two moves are up to you. Volt Switch is great for gaining momentum and dealing quick damage while switching out. Jolteon's special movepool is a bit shallow so Shadow Ball is pretty much just there. Quick Attack can be used with a Naive Nature as a move to pick something that's weakened or weak to Ice off with Jolteon's somewhat "decent" Atk stat after Mega Evolution. Here are some calculations regarding its Refigerate Hyper Voice tested against some top threats (Some of these I faced and asked the users to give me their EV spreads):

252 SpA Refrigerate Jolteon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Altarianite Dragonite: 284-336 (87.6 - 103.7%) - 25% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)

252 SpA Refrigerate Jolteon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Altarianite Dragonite: 282-334 (87.3 - 103.4%) - 18.8% chance to OHKO (93.8% to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

252 SpA Refrigerate Jolteon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Manectite Thundurus: 284-336 (94.6 - 112%) - 68.8% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)

252 SpA Refrigerate Jolteon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pidgeotite Thundurus: 310-366 (103.3 - 122%) - Guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Refrigerate Jolteon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunnite Landorus-T: 340-402 (106.5 - 126%) - Guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Refrigerate Jolteon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mewtwonite X Landorus-T: 308-364 (96.5 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)


252 SpA Refrigerate Jolteon Hyper Voice vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Altarianite Zygarde: 212-250 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Refrigerate Jolteon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Altarianite Latios: 262-310 (86.7 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)


252 SpA Refrigerate Jolteon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Manectite Latios: 226-268 (74.8 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Supproting Primal Don for A rank. Most has already said but... It proves a great check to most of the ate users with its physical bulk, it can come in n victini twice because of the speed drop and tank v-creates. But it's also the best rocker imo, Usually I'd end up trying to choose between a mold break user to beat magic bounce, but then I'd just get killed by ate. Or i'd pick focus sash and magic bounce did the trick. Primal don barely takes anything from any of the e-speeders and the only common magic bouncer that escapes the 2hko is Blissey, but with a burn thats solved

 

[Snaquaza]

Just popping in to say that I think Pidgeotite Ninetales is rather fun to use. While it's seen as a bad Pokemon in normal battling, the fact that it can actually use stones and abuse its Drought is great. Although many people would've used Houndoomite, I think Pidgeotite is more individually threatening, giving Ninetales a stat spread of 73 / 76 / 80 / 146 / 110 / 120. This gives it a nice Special Attack stat, in addition to a great speed stat, which outspeeds most Pokemon, especially those which haven't mega evolved yet (I often use it as a lead / early game, so happens quite often). I think it's a great abuser of Pidgeotite, because of two moves it gets: Hypnosis and Inferno. Both are great moves, Hypnosis allows you to cripple a Pokemon badly, allowing you to wear it down or set up. Inferno is great against physical Pokemon, since it badly cripples them, in addition to being a really strong move, so when coupled with the residual damage it gives it's really strong. When the opponent is asleep or burned and is quite weak, you can attempt setting up a Nasty Plot to become even more threatening. Finally you can choose between Hidden Power (Ground / Ice), Energy Ball (I wouldn't use SolarBeam, REALLY unreliable) and Psyshock / Psychic. I personally use Psyshock as it covers quite a lot of Pokemon and has great neutral coverage.

In general it becomes a really strong Pokemon, as its able to keep pressuring the opponent with setup and various status effects. It is even hard to revenge by Pixilate and Refrigerate as it resists those types! Its power is surprising, it can KO things like Entei at +2, but in my opinion the pressure it gives is unique for an offensive 'mon and makes it really fun to use. If you want to use it, here's the set.

Ninetales @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Inferno
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Hypnosis

 

[Talpr0ne]

Any reason why Galladite isn't D-Ranked? It is almost completely outclassed by Metagrossite, which gives greater overall bulk(slightly less physical, but more special bulk), more speed and effectively more attack factoring in Tough Claws.

252+ Atk Galladite Snorlax Return vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Sablenite Blissey: 220-259 (33.7 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagrossite Snorlax Return vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Sablenite Blissey: 249-294 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Charizardite-Y should also be C-rank since it is basically a poor man's Red Orb, since it doesn't add Fire type, and generally Desolate Land>Drought. It isn't a "why would I ever consider this" situation like Alakazite, Galladite and Abomasite though. It can be paired with some Houndoominite Pokémon if you're feeling really gimmicky, and if you're already using a Red Orb it is a suitable substitute, unlike the D-Rank stones which are competing with multiple other Mega Stones.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Just popping in to say that I think Pidgeotite Ninetales is rather fun to use. While it's seen as a bad Pokemon in normal battling, the fact that it can actually use stones and abuse its Drought is great. Although many people would've used Houndoomite, I think Pidgeotite is more individually threatening, giving Ninetales a stat spread of 73 / 76 / 80 / 146 / 110 / 120. This gives it a nice Special Attack stat, in addition to a great speed stat, which outspeeds most Pokemon, especially those which haven't mega evolved yet (I often use it as a lead / early game, so happens quite often). I think it's a great abuser of Pidgeotite, because of two moves it gets: Hypnosis and Inferno. Both are great moves, Hypnosis allows you to cripple a Pokemon badly, allowing you to wear it down or set up. Inferno is great against physical Pokemon, since it badly cripples them, in addition to being a really strong move, so when coupled with the residual damage it gives it's really strong. When the opponent is asleep or burned and is quite weak, you can attempt setting up a Nasty Plot to become even more threatening. Finally you can choose between Hidden Power (Ground / Ice), Energy Ball (I wouldn't use SolarBeam, REALLY unreliable) and Psyshock / Psychic. I personally use Psyshock as it covers quite a lot of Pokemon and has great neutral coverage.

In general it becomes a really strong Pokemon, as its able to keep pressuring the opponent with setup and various status effects. It is even hard to revenge by Pixilate and Refrigerate as it resists those types! Its power is surprising, it can KO things like Entei at +2, but in my opinion the pressure it gives is unique for an offensive 'mon and makes it really fun to use. If you want to use it, here's the set.

Ninetales @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Inferno
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Hypnosis

That set does face competition from Gengar and Mew, but it does have sun boosted Inferno which is great.

 

[Anna says hi]

Zygarde @ Glalitite
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge


Interesting cleaner I came up with when M&M was new. Ice+Ground is near perfect coverage(discounting abilities), and it hits somewhat hard with base 140 attack after a dragon dance. It has a somewhat easy time setting up with amazing 108/121 physical bulk and hits a great speed tier after mega evolving, outspeeding all the other -atespeeders. The fact that e-speed is off-STAB hurts, but it still is fun to play around with and will frequently nab several KOs per game. Jolly is vital to ensure you outspeed Altarianite Lucario before you mega, allowing you to semi-safely revenge it.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

Any reason why Galladite isn't D-Ranked? It is almost completely outclassed by Metagrossite, which gives greater overall bulk(slightly less physical, but more special bulk), more speed and effectively more attack factoring in Tough Claws.

252+ Atk Galladite Snorlax Return vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Sablenite Blissey: 220-259 (33.7 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagrossite Snorlax Return vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Sablenite Blissey: 249-294 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Charizardite-Y should also be C-rank since it is basically a poor man's Red Orb, since it doesn't add Fire type, and generally Desolate Land>Drought. It isn't a "why would I ever consider this" situation like Alakazite, Galladite and Abomasite though. It can be paired with some Houndoominite Pokémon if you're feeling really gimmicky, and if you're already using a Red Orb it is a suitable substitute, unlike the D-Rank stones which are competing with multiple other Mega Stones.

Yeah, I completely agree w/ galladite moving down. I actually think I may have suggested that a while back. It's just completely outclassed in almost every way. It's not bad, no mega stone is, it's just a matter of opportunity cost. It has only one niche over lopunnite in that it doesn't change typing, which is pretty small. It gives less attack and a trash ability, whereas lopunnite gives a really good ability. Especially w/ the type change.

Charizardite Y on the other hand, I don't COMPLETELY agree w/. It does have some significant pros over red orb (though it's still mostly outclassed). First of all, it doesnt change typing, which can be a blessing or a cursing, it wastes less in attack, boosts SoD as opposed to Def, and has the ability to provide sun for its team as well as opposed to just itself. I'd say it best fits B rank, as it is still a very good option. The fact that is ALMOST directly outclassed is the only thing that should make it less than A rank.

 

[Ghoul King]

Tagging Slayer95, as I am being barred from placing Medichamite on Mawile, which is incorrect behavior.

In BH, Ates were limited in the way that they were because anything can run fakespeed. Here I'm fairly certain nothing can.

Only Pikachu and Raichu get both moves, and they can't have them at the same time.

Yeah, it is, however, I think you may have actually been right about losing water typing anyways. Though I definitely think it shouldn't, but whatever. Ghoul King, I know it's a little late, but could we possibly readdress this? No mega evolution changes primary type, therefore neither should this. Primary type actually, as far as I know, is pretty much consistent in every evolutionary line even. It's not even just mega evolution, for the record, so, I feel like we can't say, "well, just because they haven't yet doesn't mean they won't," after 6 generations.

No.

Just ban atespeed. No need to ban dnite then. Linked added choiced clause instead of banning all scarf users, this would be smart too tbh.

That assumes Extreme Speed is the intrinsically unhealthy component of the meta. It also assumes that Dragonite is not, in fact, insanely versatile and powerful. It can validly run Pidgeotite, Blue Orb, Aggronite, Loppunite, Mewtonite X, and in all honesty probably various other Mega Stones like Banettite. It's not just an impressive abuser of -ate Mega Stones.

I understand that -atespeed is a problem, but I don't believe banning Espeed is the right solution. Espeed is fine and perfectly competitive, it's not Chatter broken. If Espeed is broken, we would've ban it from BH, STABmons or Inheritance (as I said in my previous post some pages ago).

I'd prefer if we discuss, -ate clause or something. Sure, you guys probably want banning espeed, but you'll be the first one to do so. If other metas doesn't ban espeed, why should MNM ban it? It means the move is fine. Only the abuser isn't.

An -ate clause isn't going to fix the problem. If you are restricted to one Pokémon with -ate, it'll be Dragonite sweeping teams still.

Any reason why Galladite isn't D-Ranked? It is almost completely outclassed by Metagrossite, which gives greater overall bulk(slightly less physical, but more special bulk), more speed and effectively more attack factoring in Tough Claws.

252+ Atk Galladite Snorlax Return vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Sablenite Blissey: 220-259 (33.7 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagrossite Snorlax Return vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Sablenite Blissey: 249-294 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Charizardite-Y should also be C-rank since it is basically a poor man's Red Orb, since it doesn't add Fire type, and generally Desolate Land>Drought. It isn't a "why would I ever consider this" situation like Alakazite, Galladite and Abomasite though. It can be paired with some Houndoominite Pokémon if you're feeling really gimmicky, and if you're already using a Red Orb it is a suitable substitute, unlike the D-Rank stones which are competing with multiple other Mega Stones.

Inner Focus is a great Fake Out stop, while Charizardite Y is different from Red Orb, not flatly worse.

The council is still working through the Dragonite suspect and the question of what to do about Smeargle.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Letting Smeargle use a stone + dragon ascent would not only be comsistent but fun! It's not going to be broken, so I don't see a problem

 

[Lukethehedgehog]

You had the wrong ability. Isn't the point that whoever has Huge Power can have access to Huge Power megas? But, that doesn't mean they should benefit from other abilities the Pokemon has, right? The way it is right now, which is how I did it, it checks if you have Huge Power or not. You were barred because you, presumably, chose Intimidate.

Yeah, but Mawile doesn't have access to Huge Power anyway.

 

[The Immortal]

Yeah, but Mawile doesn't have access to Huge Power anyway.

Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. I was thinking of the other Pokemon like Diggersby and such. Ignore my above post.

 

[zacjl]

Cameruptite gives 40 SpA, not 30.

 

[Lukethehedgehog]

Cameruptite gives 40 SpA, not 30.

Tyrell D. Barnes

 

[Shachaawaq]

Cameruptite gives 40 SpA, not 30.

Fixed.

 

[urkerab]

You're wrong. Diancite gives a bigger boost (+60 vs +40)

Whoops, sorry about that. Unfortunately I can't go back and fix my summary any more as that thread's now locked.

 

[Ghoul King]

Dragonite is now barred from Mega Stones.

Tagging The Immortal.

Smeargle is still being discussed.

Cameruptite gives 40 SpA, not 30.

Fixed, thank you.

Letting Smeargle use a stone + dragon ascent would not only be comsistent but fun! It's not going to be broken, so I don't see a problem

No.

 

[xJownage]

Also, tagging Slayer95 and The Immortal as we agreed on baton pass clause as well.

 

[The Immortal]

Have you thought about allowing Aegislash? It won't be able to Stance Change after mega evolving.

 

[Lukethehedgehog]

Aegislash looks like an interesting concept, since you have to waste a turn Mega Evolving to use Blade, but there has been some discussion before on allowing Ubers that rely on their Abilities before >(Greninja, Landorus, Skymin, etc.) and the council agreed to not allow them.

 

[Slayer95]

Will Dragonite be allowed to hold Orbs or Quaza-megaevo with its new event-move Dragon Ascent?

 

[thdhted]

Will Dragonite be allowed to hold Orbs or Quaza-megaevo with its new event-move Dragon Ascent?

No, Stones is just a generalization, dragonite cannot hold a Stone or Orb

 

[xJownage]

Have you thought about allowing Aegislash? It won't be able to Stance Change after mega evolving.

This has been suggested before and will recieve the same answer now: It isn't that smart to set the random precedent of unbanning ubers unless they make the metagame MORE healthy; the uber not being broken is not a reason to unban it. I personally do not like the direction many tiers go in unbanning ubers that often do not help the metagame in any way, and most of us feel the same.