Ladder Mix and Mega

That would certainly be interesting, as you said it would give Pokémon that are only viable in OU thanks to their abilities (Azumarill, Serperior and Talonflame) viable mega stones to use. I'm honestly not sure if those mega stones do change your ability. Could someone hack a different ability on Lati@s in game and test it?

It this happens though, Levitate Heatran will be no more :pirate:.
 
That would certainly be interesting, as you said it would give Pokémon that are only viable in OU thanks to their abilities (Azumarill, Serperior and Talonflame) viable mega stones to use. I'm honestly not sure if those mega stones do change your ability. Could someone hack a different ability on Lati@s in game and test it?

It this happens though, Levitate Heatran will be no more :pirate:.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-408757118
Its ability turned into Levitate, it had Contrary pre-Mega and it boosted its Special Attack after the Mega Evolving
 
I'd do it tomorrow. But if anyone wants a chance to beat me, they are free to.

Sorry to double post, but I just did it right now. Mega Latios (and I'll assume Mega Latias) get Levitate when they Mega Evolve. In a Triple Battle, the first turn I had a Mew use Skill Swap with my Latios giving it Synchronize. In the next turn, my Latios Mega Evolved and my Garchomp used Earthquake. Mega Latios avoided the Earthquake with Levitate.
 
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So, since this is likely to win OMOTM for September, I thought I'd do an analysis for Heatran:

Overview

Heatran is a solid Pokémon in Mix and Mega. Its good all around base stats let it pull off a wide variety of roles, which in turn means it can be slapped onto most team archetypes and fit quite comfortably. Another niche Heatran has is that most of the mega stones it likes to use aren't in high demand elsewhere, meaning its roles don't have too much competition. Indeed, it's just about the only Pokémon that can use the Latiasite effectively. Heatran's movepool is also impressive - in addition to a strong STAB in Fire Blast, as well as nice coverage in Earth Power it also has useful utility moves in Taunt, Stealth Rock, Roar, Toxic and Will-O-Wisp. Fire/Steel typing offers a slew of resistances, and before mega evolving it has a Fire immunity as well.

Heatran does still have its faults though. Its good bulk is let down by a lack of reliable recovery, and its Speed is nothing to write home about either. And if giving Heatran a mega stone that removes its Steel typing, it will become weak to all entry hazards.

Levitran

Heatran @ Latiasite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Toxic
- Roar

Moves

Stealth Rock is a staple on just about any team, and is used to help Heatran's teammates get extra KOs. Lava Plume is a decently strong STAB that has a 30% chance to burn the opponent. Toxic cripples walls like Slowbronite Blissey - Heatran can spam it quite freely, as even if it gets reflected by Magic Bounce, Heatran's immune anyway. Roar prevents the opponent setting up on Heatran, and helps spread passive damage. If you have something else that can set up Stealth Rock, Protect or Earth Power could be used in that slot to stall out poison and burn damage and hit opposing Fire-types, respectively.

Set Details

The Latiasite is essential to this set's success, as it gives Heatran a good mix of power and bulk and gives the ability Levitate, thus negating its X4 weakness to Ground-type moves. The EVs maximise physical bulk, letting this set counter Altarianite Zygarde, providing Heatran's already mega evolved. A specially defensive spread is also viable, although with Absolite Manaphy on the prowl it's not as effective.

Usage Tips

Setting up Stealth Rock should be your main goal early game. Then, use Heatran to take the heat off Pokémon weak to Pixilate Extreme Speed like Kyurem and Terrakion. Throwing around Toxic is often Heatran's best bet, as thanks to its natural immunity it doesn't matter if it gets reflected back by a Magic Bounce user. Use Roar on Pokémon that try to set up on Heatran, like Slowbronite Suicune.

Team Options

Pokémon weak to Pixilate Extreme Speed like Kyurem and Terrakion like having this set around - in turn, the former can switch into the Water moves Heatran is weak to. While it will hate Toxic, Primal Groudon is a nightmare for this set if it lacks Earth Power, so checks to it are recommended. Altarianite Landorus-T can do massive damage with its STAB Earthquake, while Blue Orb Skarmory can more or less wall it indefinitely. A Primal Groudon of your own could work too, as Heatran can come in on the Ground moves it's weak to after it's mega evolved, while it can come in on the Water moves Heatran is weak to. Wish Support is highly recommended to keep Heatran healthy; Ampharosite Jirachi gets great synergy with this Heatran, as it resists Water moves while Heatran is immune to Ground ones. Jirachi can also bring Heatran in safely with a slow U-turn. Absolite Manaphy is a nightmare for this set, as it can reflect back the Stealth Rock and set up in Heatran's face with Tail Glow. Red Orb users like Primal Groudon, Victini, Raikou and Togekiss can help take it down.

Stallbreaker

Heatran @ Ampharosite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 108 HP / 252 SpA / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Dragon Pulse / Earth Power

Moves

Magma Storm is Heatran's strongest STAB, and also traps the opponent. Taunt prevents walls from using status moves, preventing them from recovering and spreading status. Toxic is used to cripple walls, putting them on a timer. Combined with Magma Storm, the damage can build up very quickly, especially in a metagame without Leftovers. Dragon Pulse can be used as Heatran's safe STAB once it's mega evolved, while Earth Power lets it hit opposing Fire types and 2HKO defensive Primal Groudon on the switch.

Set Details

The Ampharosite is critical to this set's success. It gives Heatran a decent boost to its defences and a huge boost to its Special Attack at the slight cost of some Speed. However, the main draw is twofold: Dragon typing, which means it can now break through bulky Water-types, and Mold Breaker, which lets it use Taunt and Toxic on Magic Bounce walls like Sablenite Blissey. The Speed EVs let Heatran outrun uninvested Suicune after the Speed drops from the Ampharosite. Special Attack is maximised to hit as hard as possible. The rest is in HP for some extra bulk. A bulkier spread of 248 HP / 112 SpA / 148 Spe can be used instead of you prefer bulk to outright power. You could also eschew bulk and simply run a spread of 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe.

Usage Tips

This Heatran's main job is breaking through defensive walls like Blissey and defensive Mew. Since Heatran often draws in special walls, starting with Magma Storm is often your best bet - it still a lot of damage to anything not resisting it thanks to Heatran's 180 base Special Attack post mega evolving. Counting Taunt and Magma Storm turns is critical for this set's success.

Team Options

Generally fast cleaners like Pinsirite Archeops and Glalite Weavile appreciate this set's ability to break through defensive Pokémon. As the Ampharosite makes Heatran weak to Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin or Defog support is mandatory, otherwise Heatran will find itself worn down quickly. Blue Orb Scizor can Defog, and bring Heatran in safely with a slow U-turn. Blue Orb Forretress can set up entry hazards, spin them away, and bring Heatran in safely with a slow Volt Switch. As this set is meant to threaten defensive Pokémon, strong priority users like Altarianite Zygarde and Entei are good teammates to check opposing offensive Pokémon.

Offensive Stealth Rock


Heatran @ Ampharosite / Cameruptite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Dragon Pulse / Flash Cannon

Moves

Stealth Rock lets Heatran and its teammates get extra KOs, and helps wear down the opposing team. Fire Blast serves as this set's main STAB, getting 2HKOes on most things that don't resist it or aren't dedicated Special walls. It also gets boosted by Sheer Force if Heatran is running the Cameruptite. Earth Power hits Rock types and opposing Fire types, and benefits from both mega stones: the Ampharosite lets it hit Levitating Pokémon, while the Cameruptite gives it a 30% power boost. The last slot is dedicated to a reliable STAB. If you're running Ampharosite, go with Dragon Pulse; if running Cameruptite, go with Flash Cannon.

Set Details

The EVs maximise Speed and Special Attack, letting Heatran hit as fast and as hard as it can. As to which mega stone, it comes down to whether you prefer being able to set up Stealth Rock against Magic Bounce users and the smaller Speed drop of the Ampharosite or the greater power and bulk of the Cameruptite. Both give Heatran a good combination of power and bulk, so really it's up to you which one you go for. The Latiasite could also be used on this set if you prefer the Ground immunity; it also doesn't reduce Heatran's Speed.

Usage Tips

This set has two main goals: to set up Stealth Rock, and to wallbreak. If you chose the Ampharosite, set up Stealth Rock as soon as possible as it means you don't have to worry about Magic Bounce. If running the Cameruptite, generally firing off powerful attacks until the moment presents itself is the best strategy. While this set isn't frail per se, it has no recovery whatsoever and no investment in bulk, so don't switch it in if possible. Bringing it in on revenge kills, or after a slow Volt Switch or U-turn is generally the best idea.

Team Options

Fast sweepers like Rock Polish Altarianite Landorus-T and Dragon Dance Altarianite Zygarde are good teammates that can clear up the remains of an opposing team once Heatran's done some damage. If running the Ampharosite, hazard removal is strongly recommended. Blue Orb Scizor and Forretress can remove entry hazards quite reliably; they can also bring Heatran in with a slow U-turn or Volt Switch, respectively. Absolite Manaphy can be very difficult for this set if running Cameruptite, as it can reflect back the Stealth Rock and set up in Heatran's face with Tail Glow. Red Orb users like Primal Groudon, Victini, Raikou and Togekiss can help take it down.

YOLO Tran


Heatran @ Diancite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast / Overheat
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon / Hidden Power Grass
- Protect / Hidden Power Grass

Moves

Fire Blast is a strong STAB boosted attack that deals good damage to anything not resisting it. Overheat can be used instead for even more power. The stat penalties aren't the end of the world, as this Heatran rarely stays in for more than a few turns at a time. Earth Power hits Rock types and opposing Fire types; it also 2HKOes Primal Groudon on the switch. Flash Cannon is a perfectly accurate STAB that lets Heatran revenge kill Lucarionite Terrakion, while Hidden Power Grass 2HKOes Pidgeotite Starmie and Keldeo on the switch. Protect is generally the best option in the final slot, as that lets you mega evolve safely. Explosion could also be used when Heatran's done its job to bring in a teammate safely and quite literally go out with a bang. Use a Naive nature if running Explosion. Taunt can also be used to stop your opponent setting up on Heatran.

Set Details

The Diancite is used to fix Heatran's low Speed. It allows it to outrun Pidgeotite Starmie after Mega Evolving. Max Speed and Special Attack EVs are used, as with the Diancite wrecking Heatran's bulk investing there is a waste of time anyway.

Usage Tips

As the Diancite destroys Heatran's bulk, this set should generally only be used as a revenge killer and late game cleaner. As Heatran gains Magic Bounce after Mega Evolving, this set can still switch in on weak walls like Slowbronite Blissey as well as hazard stackers like Banettite Shuckle and, to a lesser extent, Blue Orb Forretress. It can also somewhat check Altarianite Entei thanks to X4 resisting Extreme Speed and OHKOing with Earth Power. Despite the huge power increase, this set still has trouble dealing with dedicated special walls it can't hit super effectively, like Slowbronite Blissey.

Team Options

Since Heatran loses most of its bulk, slow Volt Switches and U-turns from the likes of Blue Orb Forretress and Sablenite Mandibuzz are helpful. They can both also clear hazards for Heatran, and the former can set them up too. Absolite Manaphy outruns this set and can OHKO with Scald, if it's already Mega Evolved. Red Orb users like Primal Groudon, Victini, Raikou and Togekiss can help take it down. Walls like Sablenite Mew and Slowbronite Blissey can take some of the heat off Heatran.

Other Options

Will-O-Wisp can be used to guarantee a burn, as well as cripple Blue Orb Scizor who can normally check Heatran quite well. Heatran may seem like it could use the Rob Orb well, with its good bulk and high power. However, it forces it to sacrifice its Steel typing. The Charizardite Y may seem like a tempting alternative, but Heatran is usually too slow and Red Orb Victini is normally a superior choice due to its greater Speed. Heatran can use Flame Charge to boost its Speed, but it just doesn't have space for the move. The Pidgeotite lets Heatran use perfectly accurate Magma Storms, but again Victini outclasses it in that role as it has more Speed as well as STAB Inferno, Thunder and Focus Blast. Heatran is bulkier and isn't weak to Stealth Rock though. The Absolite may seem like a tempting alternative to the Diancite, but it doesn't give enough Speed to outrun Lucarionite Terrakion. Lastly, Heatran can equip the Altarianite and can use Nature Power for a Fairy type Tri Attack. However, if you want a Fire / Fairy type tank, use Red Orb Togekiss - it's faster, and more importantly has reliable recovery in Morning Sun and Heal Bell.

Checks and Counters

Primal Kyogre - While it will hate Toxic, Primal Kyogre is immune to Fire moves, resists Flash Cannon and shrugs off Dragon Pulse. It can also boost in Heatran's face with Calm Mind and smash it with Origin Pulse

Water types - Absolite Manaphy can reflect back Stealth Rock or Toxic, boost in Heatran's face with Tail Glow, and take it down with Scald. It even outruns the Diancite set. However, it is 2HKOed by Dragon Pulse and Hidden Power Grass. Pidgeotite Keldeo can smash Heatran with either of its STABs, and can use Calm Mind to beat Ampharosite sets. However, it is outrun and 2HKOed by Hidden Power Grass from the Diancite set.

Blue Orb Steel types - Blue Orb Skarmory, Scizor and Ferrothorn are immune to Fire moves, and in the former's case Earth Power. Skarmory and Ferrothorn can set up hazards on Heatran, while Scizor can hit hard with Superpower. However, the stallbreaker set can cripple them with Taunt

Special Walls - Blissey can usually handle anything Heatran has, although it loses to the Ampharosite stallbreaker set.

Revenge Killers - Faster Ground, Water and Fighting types can usually revenge kill Heatran easily enough. Landorus-T, Keldeo, Starmie and Terrakion are some of the prime examples. The latter 4 even resist Fire Blast.


Phew that took a while. I'm sure you'll let me know if you think I missed something :D.
 
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OK, so you wanted an analysis of Terrakion...

Overview

Terrakion is an extremely dangerous Pokémon in Mix and Mega. Its Speed and Attack are enough in and of themselves to make it a viable threat, but Terrakion's niche comes from its fantastic offensive typing. Very few Pokémon resist both Rock and Fighting moves, which means that A: very little can safely switch in on Terrakion and B: after Stone Edge and Close Combat, you can do pretty much anything you want with its final two moveslots. Due to the aforementioned qualities, it is easily the best user of the Lucarionite, although there are other mega stones it can viably use, like the Lopunnite.

However, Terrakion still has its faults. As great as its typing is offensively, defensively it doesn't hold up as well: it has a bad 7 weaknesses, with Ground and Water moves being very common. Most problematic is its weakness to the ubiquitous Pixilate Extreme Speeds that plague the metagame, from the likes of Entei and Zygarde. Its bulk is pretty average as well, and its slew of weaknesses can make it difficult to get Terrakion into battle safely. It also has to rely on the inaccurate Stone Edge.

Terracota Warrior (Physical Attacker)

Terrakion @ Lucarionite / Lopunnite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Substitute / Rock Polish

Moves

Close Combat is Terrakion's strongest STAB, and does heavy damage to anything not resisting it. Stone Edge is the alternate STAB, getting excellent coverage with Close Combat. The only Pokémon to resist both are Alatarianite Landorus-T, Aggronite Gourgeist and Lopunnite Mew, and none of them are particularly common. Swords Dance cranks Terrakion's Attack to ridiculous levels, letting you utterly destroy just about everything. Substitute can be used to scout switch ins - it also lets you beat Altarianite Entei if you can get a Substitute up when it comes in. Rock Polish lets Terrakion outrun absolutely everything. You could also run Rock Slide or Sacred Sword in the final slot if you want a STAB with no drawbacks.

Set Details

The EVs maximise Speed and Attack, the two stats Terrakion relies mostly on. The Lucarionite is generally the best item to run, as it takes Terrakion's Speed up to base 130, letting you tie with Pidgeotite Gengar and Pinsirite Archeops while outrunning Pidgeotite Keldeo. It also grants a generous Attack boost and, best of all, the ability Adaptability. This makes Terrakion extremely powerful, letting it 2HKO just about everything. The Lopunnite offers less power due to the lack of Adaptability, but it provides more Speed which lets Terrakion outrun Pidgeotite Starmie and Diancite Heatran.

Usage Tips

This set is generally best used as an early to mid game wallbreaker, smashing holes into the opponent's team so that its teammates can clear up later. You can often get the job done by simply spamming Terrakion's STABs. Use Swords Dance, Substitute or Rock Polish when a free turn presents itself, such as on a Pokémon Terrakion can force out like Sablenite Blissey and Blue Orb Ferrothorn. While Terrakion has decent bulk, it still doesn't want to take any unnecessary risks, so where possible bring it in via a slow Volt Switch or U-turn.

Team Options

Nasty Plot Pidgeotite Mew can wallbreak alongside Terrakion, and the two have good synergy as well: Mew can come in on the Fighting moves for Terrakion, while it can come in on the Dark moves for Mew, even getting an Attack boost thanks to Justified if it hasn't Mega Evolved yet. Checks to Altarianite Entei are essential for Terrakion, as it can easily revenge kill it with Pixilate Extreme Speed. Blue Orb Forretress can wall Entei, set and remove hazards, and bring Terrakion in safely with a slow Volt Switch. Primal Groudon can wall Altarianite Entei and OHKO it with Earthquake or Precipice Blades. Sweepers like Rock Polish Landorus-T, Pinsirite Cobalion and Absolite Manaphy make good teammates, as they can clear up the rest of the team once Terrakion's smashed a few holes.

Other Options

Taunt can cripple weak walls, although many of them run Sablenite. Terrakion can use the Pinsirite, as that gives it a reliable STAB in the form of Return thanks to Aerialte and its new Flying typing. However, that gives Terrakion a Stealth Rock weakness, which makes it even harder to reliably switch in. As tempting as it may be to use the Mewtwonite X, don't: the Lucarionite offers more power thanks to Adaptability, and while the Lopunnite doesn't offer quite as much power, it gives Terrakion a useful Speed boost and a much more better ability. Terrakion can set up Stealth Rock, but it would usually rather be attacking. Iron Head, Earthquake and X-Scissor are coverage moves Terrakion can run, but a neutral Adaptability boosted Close Combat will outdamage a X2 Earthquake. Lastly, Quick Attack can be used if you desperately need some form of priority, but it is hilariously weak and hits nothing super effectively.

Checks and Counters

Landorus-T:
Thanks to Intimidate pre mega, Landorus-T can avoid a 2HKO from Stone Edge and OHKO Terrakion with Earthquake. If it's running Altarianite, it resists both of Terrakion's STABs and can OHKO with either of its own

Bulky walls that resist Close Combat: Sablenite Mew can endure a +2 Stone Edge and cripple Terrakion with Will-O-Wisp. However, Terrakion can come out on top if it packs Swords Dance and Substitute. Aggronite Gourgeist can wall Lucarionite Terrakion indefinitely, although if it's running the Lopunnite Terrakion can OHKO it with a +2 Close Combat.

Pixilate Extreme Speed users: Altarianite Entei, Zygarde and Arcanine can all revenge kill Terrakion fairly easily. However, Entei and Arcanine are both OHKOed by Stone Edge, and before mega evolving Zygarde takes heavy damage from Close Combat.

Faster Pokémon: Pidgeotite Tornadus-T, Absolite Manaphy and (if Terrakion is running Lucarionite) Pidgeotite Starmie can outrun Terrakion post mega evolving and OHKO it with Focus Blast, Scald and Hydro Pump, respectively.


That was much easier than Heatran, poor Terrakion is a one trick pony (ox?) although it is bloody good at that one trick.
 
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An introduction to the metagame

Mix & Mega is the only OM ever to win OMOTM immediately after being eligible, twice. It is by far the most popular OMOTM ever, with over 102 000 plays in one month. I cannot stress how big this was, the first OMOTM ever to break 100 000 plays! It was a big moment for the OM room and everybody has been eagerly waiting for it to be eligible once again. And that time has come, Mix and Mega is a metagame that lets you use any megastone on any pokemon.

Let me show you the faces of Mix and Mega

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Absolite Manaphy is one of the most threatening sweepers ever to waddle into an OM. Absolite gives a whooping 40+ Special Attack and 40+ Speed and a less useful 20+ Attack. Giving Manaphy a stat spread of 100/120/100/140/100/140 letting it outspeed most of the unboosted and un-evolved metagame. At +3 very little can take a hit from this monster. However, the metagame has adapted to it, Red orb pokemon are very common and so is Blissey. The former being immune to water entirely and the latter having immense special bulk, it should be able to beat Manaphy with status.. Wait? Manaphy has Magic bounce. You can't toxic it, you can't Thunder wave it and you can't sleep on it at all. Manaphy will stop whatever momentum you've gained and sweep you in one turn if you don't watch out. But don't just prepare for Absolite, Manaphy runs Sceptilite as well giving it a part dragon typing and an electric immunity meaning it's very difficult to properly deal with as one stone handles the weaknesses of the other.


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Entei was the most used pokemon in EI with 39% usage. That's a lot, and it means you need to prepare for it. Although countering it isn't impossible, it was still a very common revenge killer. Pixilate Boosted Extreme Speed is extremely powerful, it acted as a back up revenge killer for handling dozens of pokemon. Seeing as it was resistant to Ice and Fairy, it only left Aerilate Extreme Speed as a threat . Although Entei struggles to get past water types and Primordial Sea steel types, it has a good match up in most situations. Entei did face competition from Arcanine and some believed the latter was better than the former. But Entei is faster, more powerful and bulkier so in my opinion it was the clear choice.

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Blissey was the second most used pokemon in Mix and Mega. Together with Skarmory they form a formidable defensive core. They provided your team with essentially anything defensively you'd want. You gain a powerful core capable of withstanding attacks from multiple top tier threats. Your core is still not shy of any momentum either, Magic bounce can be very helpful when you face Balance cores. The core also provides hazard control in both Stealth rock, Spikes and Defog and a cleric. What more could you ask for? Skarmory runs Blue orb most of the time, giving it an immunity to Fire making it a perfect counter to Entei and Primal Groudon. The metagame adapted to the point of running Thunder on Primal Groudon and Arceus-Normal! This should give you a good idea about Skarmory's presence in the metagame. But Blissey isn't to be underestimated at all. With Sablenite it gets an immense 255/55/185 bulk capable of withstanding blows from threats like Thundurus or Manaphy. Sablenite also gives it Magic bounce making it a huge threat to opposing stall-teams. Other than that it also runs Slowbronite gaining a lot more physical defence and can actually run a Calm mind set rather effectively, although that's not recommended. When building hyper offence make sure to take this fearsome defensive core into account!

That's all for now guys! Mix and Mega will be eligible in September next month, so make sure to

VOTE! VOTE! VOTE!
 
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I've been asked to take over the viability rankings, so let's discuss some mons!



Volcanion. Hits really hard, and has good bulk for an offensive Pokémon. However, it's let down by low Speed - even with the Diancite, the best it can do is tie with Pidgeotite Gengar. The Cameruptite is probably its favourite mega stone - while it faces competition from Kyurem, who has reliable recovery, Volcanion has twin 110 base power STABs that both get a Sheer Force boost in Steam Eruption and Fire Blast. I'm thinking B or B-.



Primal Kyore. Why isn't this ranked? It's a great offensive check to Pokémon like Primal Groudon and Entei. It hits much harder than Absolite Manaphy, and has perfectly accurate Thunder to hit opposing Water-types. Its low Speed also means it's free to invest in bulk. I'm thinking B or B+ right now.
 
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sin(pi)

lucky n bad
Final verdict: Manaphy is banned.

Tagging The Immortal.

Manaphy isn't broken in the traditional sense -it's not a threat beyond the meta's ability to fight- but the pressure it puts on the meta in conjunction with the fact that a match can essentially be decided primarily or entirely by whether you botch a predict while Manaphy is on the field is not a healthy dynamic.
Grains of Salt: are you sticking with Banaphy or not? It's probably good to know before OMotM voting starts bc this is obviously gonna win
 
Hey guys! First of all thank you to Ghoul King for leading the metagame and to xJownage for handling the Viability Rankings! I hope me and ChrystalFalchion can do a good job!

Now, lets discuss the future. I'd first like to announce that:

  • Certain pokemon like Shuckle were unable to use stones that made one or more of its stats to go above 255 or below 1. This is now tweaked so you'll simply end up at 255 or 1. Sablenite Shuckle is freed!
  • To refrain from complex banning, Kyurem-Black, Regigigas, Slaking, Smeargle, Manaphy, Lucario, Dragonite and Cresselia are banned entirely - not just from holding Mega Stones.
  • Which brings me to my next point, unbans

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Manaphy, Smeargle and Dragonite were all banned with council votes. If you're not familiar with them, councils used to vote amongst themselves, usually consisting of 5-7 people. There's been fewer councils lately, and that's because it's difficult to accurately represent the player base if 5-7 people decide everything, often gerrymandering(Picking council members who represent your interested). All of these pokemon were banned by council votes and I don't feel like they accurately represented the community vote. So we're going to have a discussion!

Manaphy was hurt by priority, and although it was powerful, this is an ubers Metagame, everything is supposed to be powerful. Red orb hurts its viability and Blissey can 1v1 it with calm mind if it wants to. Smeargle was banned by the first council, and it was 99% ghoul's decision so I'm going to suspect it on the grounds of generally struggling to get of a mega evolution and even then it's limited purely to Baton pass which Mew does better. Dragonite hates the latest metagame trends with the rise of Steel/flying types like Cobalion and Metagross. Primal Groudon can threaten it with Preciples Blades or Thunder wave. Skarmory still handles everything bar Thunder. Ferrothorn doesn't care at all about anything besides Superpower, Heatran is the same deal. Latias/Latiosite Jirachi are huge threats to it. Entei is capable of revenge killing. We'll see how it goes!

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(Blazikenite)
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So these pokemon are the ones I discussed with the OM and decided to suspect. Speed boost has always been overhyped in my mind, and it was never tested. Without Life orb you're significantly less powerful and it should be discussed. Aegislash and Landorus-I both rely too much on their abilities to be effective without them and Deoxys-S and D rely heavily on their items (Focus sash and Mental Herb), you should be fine simply taunting them or killing them with Extreme Speed.

And just to give everyone a head-start, here's the team I went 80-0 with in Mix and Mega

Cobalion @ Pinsirite
Ability: Justified
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Frustration
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Taunt

Gengar @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- Focus Blast

Manaphy @ Absolite
Ability: Hydration
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Tail Glow

Zygarde @ Altarianite
Ability: Aura Break
Happiness: 0
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute

Arceus @ Lum Berry
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Thunder

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Brave Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
- Precipice Blades
- Lava Plume

Generally the team revolves around lead groudon capable of breaking through some of the bulkiest Magic bouncers and living any hit bar Adaptability EQ from Excadrill/Landorus-Therian and then setting up rocks. Groudon is capable of threatening the opposing mon with either Thunder wave or Lava plume burns, if they are immune to ground type attacks. Most of the time it will get up rocks. Other than that the team revolves around set up, it exploited the lack of unaware in the metagame and utilized two underrated threats at the time Zygarde and Cobalion, and the effects shifted Cobalion from an unranked threat to A/A+ ranked threat. The team is supposed to be used effectively by overpowering your enemy with set up, very few teams were capable of handling all of them at once.



Verdict
  • Lucario, Cresselia, Slaking, Regigigas and Kyurem-Black are all banned even without a mega stone (complex)
  • You can now use stones that makes your stat go below 1 or above 255, it will simply stop at 1 or 255.
  • ChrystalFalchion is now leading the Viability rankings
  • nv is leading the Stone Viability rankings
  • The council is disbanded
  • Mix and Mega shall be OMOTM for the third and final time before it's Permanent ladder! (hopefully :] )
  • Depending on wether Mix and Mega wins OMOTM, do you think we should suspect these pokemon, being Dragonite, Manaphy, Smeargle and potentially Blazikenite, Deoxys-D/S, Aegislash and Landorus-I? If so could you answer these questions?
  1. Which ones do you think we should suspect?
  2. In what way is the metagame less/more favourable to these pokemon
  3. How do you think these pokemon would effect the Mix and Mega metagame?
  4. Are you properly HYPED for mix and mega?!
 
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To refrain from complex banning, Kyurem-Black, Regigigas, Slaking, Smeargle, Manaphy, Lucario, Dragonite and Cresselia are banned entirely - not just from holding Mega Stones.
Well, like I told you, it's complex but at the same time this is an Ubers based metagame and Ubers are not able to hold Mega Stones. It's kind of a contradiction then. Assuming Kyurem-Black is banned from OU, it will then be unbanned here. Doesn't make sense to restrict MnM based on the standard OU tier. We used it as a starting point, but we can move Pokemon in and out of Uber in this meta.

So, you should just have a custom Ubers list in the first post.
 
I disagree with Deoxys-S and D being able to use mega stones. The former can use the Ampharosite to get a solid bulk increase at the expense of some speed (but let's face it 170 is still not exactly slow), and thanks to Mold Breaker it can set up hazards on anything and with Taunt it can shut down Defoggers. Dragonite was insane when it was legal, in addition to its Pinsirite set it could also run Special Pidgeotite (better bulk and movepool than Tornadus) and Mixed Red Orb. As for Smeargle, I disagree that it has trouble mega evolving - Spiky Shield easily gives you space. It's probably the best user of Banettite though.

Blazikenite could be interesting - I think Garchomp and Landours-T will be good users of it.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Manaphy: I'm gonna say I hope this stays banned. The fact that you can go 80-0 utilizing it should say something first of all, and the pressure it put on the majority of the meta was insane. Almost nothing except Diancite mons with speed over 80 or Absolite mons faster than reg Mana could outspeed it and it was bulky enough to live espeeds (252+ Atk Pixilate Altarianite Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Absolite Manaphy: 211-250 (61.8 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock plus you could move a bit of spatk to hp if you really wanted to, +3 is such a great boost, but I digress). It was so easy to get a Tail Glow on passive mons (e.g. Skarmory) due to Magic Bounce, and then it proceeded to outspeed and bop most of the meta. This is putting aside Sceptilite, which could set up on electric coverage and outspeed even the fastest of Pokemon, albeit in exchange for a weakness to pixispeed (this was its second best set, but still made it somewhat unpredictable by offering an immunity and a neutrality to its two regular weaknesses, electric and grass, respectively). Basically it's somewhat unpredictable, reasonably bulky (and as such pretty difficult to revenge kill without SpD walls like Blissey, which isn't usable on offense and is still pretty momentum-sapping for balance), very powerful due to a strong setup move, and outspeeds the majority of the meta.

Smeargle: Agree it has no trouble Mega evolving and it's annoying af, but Magic Bounce is everywhere and ig we could give it a test, don't rly have an opinion on it.

Dnite: ... just no lol. It gets up one DD and bam you can't stop it with other espeeders. It only really needs DD and ESpeed so ur last two slots can be lures (Thunder, EQ, Superpower, Fire Punch whatever tf you want). When this was legal, most matches came down to who set up Dnite first. That isn't fun or competitive. People were using steel types back then too. Hell that was when Aggronite Gourgeist/Togekiss were things that existed and were very common, and Dnite still dominated. It was the premier rker, got free DDs (still had Multiscale pre-Mega, remember), and was, again, insanely powerful--when something needs 2+ checks per team it's a reasonable indication that its broken. And this is just for the Pinsirite set lmao, the other sets have completely different checks and counters and it could run quite a few other successfully.

Deo-S: Gotta say this should stay banned. As chrfal pointed out it's an insane hazard setter, and it can also run stuff like Cameruptite as it still outspeeds 99% of the meta but now has 135 SpA and Sheer Force. Psychic/Dragon is a great typing, checking and getting free hazard layers on stuff like Keldeo easily, keeping them up w/ Taunt, and can function as a stallbreaker at the same time, as well as gaining a bit of bulk.

Deo-D: I'm not totally sold on this, but I could see a brief test ig. I do think Sablenite Deo-D would be very strong though, and extremely difficult to break, especially w/ a CM set. 210 defenses are nothing to laugh at, even with only 50 HP, and Psychic is a decent enough typing. It would also be an annoyingly consistent hazard setter that's difficult to KO w/ Ampharosite and that great typing that makes Ampharosite Mew so good.

Blazikenite: I'm strongly against this, as on mons that resist atespeed, it will be very difficult to revenge kill. It also doesn't help stall as now double dance mons can just run SD and gain a coverage slot, or on mons that would regularly run DD, they can now run SD (e.g. Haxorus) for the same speed boost but higher attack. Part of the reason Klinklang is so amazing is Shift Gear boosts speed, invalidating offense, even if it only gives +1 attack. When you give mons the potential to get +2 attack and a speed boost it hurts all playstyles.

Lando-I: I agree it relies on its ability and 125/115/101 offensive stats are nothing special without sheer force.

Aegislash: Again, I agree, that we should at least test this. It takes a turn to switch to blade form before it can mega offensively (and I think resets when it switches out even if it lacks Stance Change but I don't know for sure--could someone test this?) and defensively it lacks reliable recovery. Would likely be underwhelming.

Volcanion: I agree with a B- ranking for this thing, it's fairly slow (even with Diancite it only reaches 130, which is fairly average in this om) but is powerful and decently bulky. It lacks setup or recovery but I could see a Cameruptite set being extremely powerful, especially on Trick Room teams. Lucarionite could also be interesting.

POgre: I'm not sure this is the greatest Entei check, as Return 2HKOs max def pogre, and Espeed has a 68% chance to do so after rocks. It needs basically max speed to outrun Entei, which compromises your bulk (and makes ESpeed do 68-80% assuming max speed/spatk) so either way it can't really switch in. And the PDon matchup is decided by who switches in second tbh. I'm not sold on this, but it is a fairly bulky mon overall and definitely a strong attacker so I'd say put it in B- for now--I'd like to see more evidence on why it should be any higher.

Klinklang: We had a discussion on this ages ago and decided on A for it, it's so good

Vaporeon: I nommed this to B+ ages ago and nobody opposed iirc so..?

Gastrodon: Similar to Vapo I nommed to B- without opposition iirc so if that could happen too that would be great.

Also regular DNite isn't even ranked in Ubers, so why is it C rank here, when it can't hold stones? Can we move it to at least D (altho I'd prefer unranked tbqh). Unless it has a niche that I'm missing but I can't for the life of me figure out what it would do that others couldn't do better (*cough* Rayquaza and Zygarde *cough*)

Keep banned: Manaphy, Dragonite, Deo-S, Blazikenite

Suspect for unban: Smeargle, Deo-D

Unban: Aegi, Lando-I

Volcanion to B
POgre to B-
Klinklang to A
Vapo to B+
Gastro to B-
DNite to D/unranked
 
Well, like I told you, it's complex but at the same time this is an Ubers based metagame and Ubers are not able to hold Mega Stones. It's kind of a contradiction then. Assuming Kyurem-Black is banned from OU, it will then be unbanned here. Doesn't make sense to restrict MnM based on the standard OU tier. We used it as a starting point, but we can move Pokemon in and out of Uber in this meta.

So, you should just have a custom Ubers list in the first post.
Updated.
dragonite.gif


So let me go over this, because I feel like I haven't accurately represented why I believe Dragonite is worthy of a suspect. Dragonite was banned very early, it was banned right after Cresselia and around day 10 I believe during the first month. It was banned for having impeccable 174 attack with Pixilate, stab-boosted Extreme speed which threatened offence. It's set varied but mostly it consisted of Extreme speed, Earthquake, Dragon dance, Roost/Fire Punch/Thunder Punch/Thunder/Superpower - I don't remember if it was anything else. My though process around suspecting Dragonite and not Cresselia or Lucario is because the metagame has shifted away from Dragonites favour. Every team has an -ate check, especially one capable of handling Ground/Fairy/Fire coverage. That's the name of the game. So lets go over it

  1. Competition. Dragonite is not the only -Ate abuser in the metagame currently, right now Entei and Zygarde both run Altarianite. You already have to account for it. It's not like it has anything special besides Recovery, Multiscale before mega evolving and slightly more Attack. Zygarde is far bulkier and is capable of setting substitutes up on stall-mons that, for example, try and burn it with stall. Zygarde is faster as well, and can do some shifty dragon tail shenanigans versus Roar mons. Most importantly, however, is the Zygarde has access to coil which can work in its favour in setting up on physical mons and living Extreme Speeders that attempt to revenge kill. Entei is far more difficult to switch into because of Sacred fire burns. Entei is also more of the, right away power pokemon. It's powerful with Stab fire for steel types and can bop Ho-oh, Heatran ect. With Stone edge/Bulldoze respectively. Howl and Will o Wisp are also valuable.
  2. The metagame is prepared, and so are we. Not only has the metagame adapted to Entei and Zygarde to the point where every team has multiple checks to both of them. The metagame has drastically shifted against its favour, Cobalion, Metagross and Klingklang are new pokemon which pose immense threats to Zygarde. All three of them can live a hit at +1 and threaten back with an OHKO. All of them. Other than that it's not like it doesn't have weaknesses. It's very weak to status and scald, here are some checks. Just ignore the leftovers, it doesn't usually matter. Other than that I'm trying to take into account all of Dragonite's moves, but I think you get the point, it can run everything at once and it's not like these are bad pokemon or unviable.
  • Metagross (Pinsirite) (Solid check)
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 236-278 (64.8 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 402-474 (124.4 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

  • KlingKlang (Pinsirite) (Solid check)
252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 372-444 (115.1 - 137.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Klinklang: 260-306 (80.2 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

  • Cobalion (Pinsirite) (Soft check)
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Cobalion Frustration vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 426-502 (131.8 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 238-280 (73.4 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

  • Ferrothorn (Blue orb)(Sablenite)(Soft counter)
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 150-177 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Blue orb
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 274-324 (77.8 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Sablenite
12 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 324-384 (100.3 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

  • Scizor (Sablenite)(Blue Orb)(Soft counter)
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 60 Def Scizor: 151-178 (44 - 51.8%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO Sablenite
252+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 128-152 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

  • Heatran (Latiasite)(Soft counter)
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 129-152 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 336-396 (104 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

  • Skarmory (Blue orb)(Best counter)
+2 252+ Atk Pixilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 132-156 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Skarmory Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 192-228 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

  • Primal Groudon (Check)
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 260-306 (64.3 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Primal Groudon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 160-189 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

  • Alomomola (Soft counter/Hard check)
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 104 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 187-222 (37.6 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Alomomola can threaten with a burn back, it can also run Aggronite for some 50/50s. Alomomola can run toxic and stay un-megad to pivot around.
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 252+ Def Filter Alomomola: 201-237 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

  • Entei (Solid check)
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 374-444 (115.7 - 137.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Pixilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Entei: 222-261 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Moves | | Extreme Speed 97.575% | | Dragon Dance 96.692% | | Earthquake 84.026% | | Protect 23.021% | | Dragon Claw 20.560% | | Roost 18.708% | | Superpower 12.916% | | Fire Punch 12.061% | | Return 7.023% | | Ice Punch 3.770% | | Outrage 3.598% | | Dragon Tail 3.244% | | Other 16.808%

Altaria has 40% usage and Pinsirite it at 37

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-07/moveset/mixandmega-1760.txt

you guys remember the saying, thunder never strikes twice at the same place?


3. The metagame was way too young. Dragonite is worthy of suspecting right now, it should be tested again because it might not be broken. I believe I've proved that a) Dragonite isn't automatically the top dog, with solid competition. and b) Dragonite has checks in the current metagame, try them imo. But this isn't all talk, thanks to urkerab there's a separate suspect (Not official, but I don't know what else to call it) Ladder where all of these pokemon, listed below, unbanned. Try them and let me know what you think :) Playable on Rom!
Dream_Blazikenite_Sprite.png
(Blazikenite)
deoxys-speed.gif
aegislash.gif
deoxys-defense.gif
landorus.gif
smeargle.gif
manaphy-1.gif
dragonite.gif
 
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thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Yeah, i don't think smeargle was banned because it was broken iirc, but because that interaction was weird.
EDIT: yes i checked and baton pass was banned, then later smeargle was banned but not because it was broken.
"Basically I think that any Mega Stone you put on it is going to be either uncompetitive or unviable, and saw no point in complex banning just Banettite Smeargle in specific. Simpler to just bar it from Mega Stones, given the ones that aren't dumb balance-wise are going to be effectively unusable anyway."
 
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