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lol are you serious? Hoopa hits way harder, and can run physical or special sets - Zoroark is restricted to Night Slash on physical sets which is weak af. It's also bulkier and has a billion coverage moves to Zoroark's... three?
(Absolite)
252 SpA Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 153-181 (44.8 - 53%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 189-223 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Lucarionite)
252 Atk Adaptability Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 298-352 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Zoroark Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 162-192 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
Bulk (using no item Manaphy vs Absolite for these):
0 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zoroark: 130-154 (49.8 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Manaphy Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark: 106-126 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 69-82 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- 49.1% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Manaphy Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 106-126 (35 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I'm not saying Zoroark is awful, it has a cute niche in Illusion but comparing it to Hoopa is complete nonsense.
those calcs aren't representative of MnM things, they're just there to demonstrate power/bulk
not to minimod or anything but posts like this and your previous one really don't serve any purpose. Saying you've used a mon to success is cool, but means nothing about whether it's actually viable or not - a good player could probably top ladder with Red Orb Manaphy (please don't use this btw it sounds absolutely horrible)
lol are you serious? Hoopa hits way harder, and can run physical or special sets - Zoroark is restricted to Night Slash on physical sets which is weak af. It's also bulkier and has a billion coverage moves to Zoroark's... three?
(Absolite)
252 SpA Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 153-181 (44.8 - 53%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 189-223 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Lucarionite)
252 Atk Adaptability Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 298-352 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Zoroark Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 162-192 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
Bulk (using no item Manaphy vs Absolite for these):
0 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zoroark: 130-154 (49.8 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Manaphy Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark: 106-126 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 69-82 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- 49.1% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Manaphy Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 106-126 (35 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I'm not saying Zoroark is awful, it has a cute niche in Illusion but comparing it to Hoopa is complete nonsense.
those calcs aren't representative of MnM things, they're just there to demonstrate power/bulk
edit:
not to minimod or anything but posts like this and your previous one really don't serve any purpose. Saying you've used a mon to success is cool, but means nothing about whether it's actually viable or not - a good player could probably top ladder with Red Orb Manaphy (please don't use this btw it sounds absolutely horrible)
Thanks for relaying my post, but I never mentioned Zoroark has better damage and bulk... but I guess you elaborated on what I said above.
I also used Zoroark and it was absolutely terrible compared to Absolite Manaphy, Hoopa-U (especially if it holds Lucarionite). It dies to Pheromosa, and pretty much all -ate users. But Illusion is always fun as hell to play with, even though viability must be questioned due to its pathetic bulk and mediocre damage.
I won't even bother asking for something as silly as a nomination, since I've only played a good ~50-60 games at this point. Once I hit 100, I'll say more words on this...
But why isn't Kyurem-Regular listed, with Glalitite, Lucarionite, or Pidgeotite as possible options? Considering Chandelure is listed (although Red Orb definitely gives it raw power) and I haven't seen it as a mon within the OM, I'm just a wee bit curious.
Glalite 125/170/90/170/90/115
STAB-Frustration and Hyper Voice is great for a mixed sweeper, and it gets a usable speed tier of 115 (although it places it right at Pinsirite Entei/Zygarde, something you really don't want). While your Dragon moves get no significant buff besides the approval of a stat increase, and you still have your lack of good coverage, STAB Frustration generally hits most things in the meta, particularly the widespread Pinsirite megas, hits Gyarados-Mega no matter its stone (for viable stones), Yveltal, and can dent Groudon-Primal. That and, given joke about Kyurem finally having physical Ice coverage but here KyuB being banned from mega stones..
Lucarionite 125/165/108/155/90/117
Keeps the ability to go mixed (and prefers Attack, although the only move you'll probably be using is Outrage and maybe Stone Edge) and gives Draco Meteor, Outrage, and Ice Beam extremely good punching power against... pretty much everything. Its speed tier gets slightly buffed, so now it rises just over Pinsirite Entei/Zygarde and Metagrossite Bulu. I've decided to go and just do some quick calcs because holy sweet jesus this thing is fun.
4 Atk Adaptability Kyurem Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey: 264-312 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Kyurem Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey: 308-364 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Adaptability Kyurem Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Cresselia: 154-182 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (fuck cress lmao)
252 Atk Adaptability Kyurem Outrage vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 206-244 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Adaptability Kyurem Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Groudon-Primal: 162-192 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Adaptability Kyurem Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaurite Zapdos: 192-228 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Pidgeotite 125/130/95/195/100/115
Trades the ability to go Mixed for 100% accurate Blizzards, Draco Meteors, and Focus Blasts off base 195 Special Attack, and still keeps the 115 base Speed of Glalite and just under the speed of Lucarionite. It gets outsped by a bunch of things such as Absolite Tapu Lele and Manaphy, Metagrossite Kartana, Mimikyu, and so on, but I already said a bit on that with Glalite. It just wallbreaks whatever tries to exist in front of it bar Sablenite Blissey and likely Sablenite/Audinite Cresselia, and its special movepool isn't as ass as its physical, letting it dent most teams unprepared for 195 base Special Attack.
EDIT: Pinsirite, Metagrossite, and Absolite also have their perks (Dragon/Flying, access to Hone Claws to boost and a better defensive typing than the garbage Ice/Dragon; Great speed tier and Tough Claws + defensive boosts; and the same speed tier as stuff like Absolite Tapu Lele and 170 base SpAtk to spam Dracos all day). Figured I'd make an update since I thought about it a bit more.
Oh god I'm actually contributing to something on smogon other than 1v1
I'd personally like to suggest a new threat that doesn't appear to be mentioned in the vr
Bewear @ Charizardite X
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge/Return
- Dragon Claw
- Superpower/Hammer Arm
- Filler - Shadow Claw/Thunder Punch/Bulk Up/Earthquake/Taunt
With a stat spread of 120/171/113/76/60/60 this thing becomes even more menacing than it already looks.
It loses its fighting typing sadly, but gains a tremendous amount of atk, power being boosted even further by tough claws, as well as a sizable amount of def, making it pretty solid for tank purposes. It doesn't really have many threats other than the plethora of Steel/Flying types (which it can take on with Thunder Punch), Magearna, and the more obvious threat of special attackers who are faster. Not to mention, it has the benefit of having the fantastic ability Fluffy pre-mega, as well as Fighting STAB which almost makes up for the small difference in power pre vs post mega.
The problem with the above is that Bewear looses Fluffy, which is a real good ability.... The set seems decent enough, despite losing that. This is probably the best you can do with Bewear, with a setup move being best for its purposes.
I'd also like to suggest Absolite for the Kyurem set above. Magic Bounce is great for Kyruem, and it gives out a nice Special Attack and a very nice speed tier for Kyurem. It's just an amazing choice, and simply overpreforms against a ton of threats, and Blissey's been covered above.
In other words, a more aggressive stance on Zapdos. Most of this is self explanatory, but Tailwind allows Zapdos to get the jump on things like Terrakion, and allows it to make slower sweepers pretty fast. Namely, it allows Hoopa-U and Primal Kyogre to really go crazy for a few turns, among other powerhouses. And outspeeding Pidgeotite threats and paralyzing them is immensely helpful. Of course, a standard pivot move or coverage can be run there if you need those more.
I'm attempting to start up conversations here again...
Durant (Currently Unlisted)
58/144/130/73/48/131
Durant @ Lucarionite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor
- Stone Edge
- Substitute/Hone Claws/Baton Pass
Super biased towards Durant, but this shit hits HARD. Adaptability 144 base Attack and removing Hustle's inaccuracy debuff is GREAT. Sub lets you hit twice against Blissey to force it to choose to heal or attack the sub, Hone Claws lets it set up on virtually anything (Stone Edge is for things such as Zapdos), and Baton Pass lets you pivot.
Bewear (Currently Unlisted, brought up recently)
120/135/130/75/110/30
Bewear @ Sablenite
Ability: Fluffy
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Facade/Frustration
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Bulk Up
This is the only better option I can see Bewear running. Sablenite gives it very good 120/130/110 bulk, more than usable 135 base Attack, and just reduces its speed as a penalty, something it had very little of in the first place. RestTalk gives it a form of recovery and dumping EVs into SpDef/HP and then giving it Careful + Bulk Up lets it set up late-game with Ghosts removed and generally win games without Pidgeotite Deoxys-Speed/Shaymin-Sky on the field.
None of these really stand out to me, on paper, as being remarkably overpowered or overcentralizing. This also opens up Azumarill and Diggersby to being able to be used, lightens a restriction, and makes Medichamite and Mawilite, or more accurately Huge/Pure Power, act more as it does in some other OMs where it is only available on Pokemon that naturally get it.
I'm attempting to start up conversations here again...
Durant (Currently Unlisted)
58/144/130/73/48/131
Durant @ Lucarionite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor
- Stone Edge
- Substitute/Hone Claws/Baton Pass
Super biased towards Durant, but this shit hits HARD. Adaptability 144 base Attack and removing Hustle's inaccuracy debuff is GREAT. Sub lets you hit twice against Blissey to force it to choose to heal or attack the sub, Hone Claws lets it set up on virtually anything (Stone Edge is for things such as Zapdos), and Baton Pass lets you pivot.
Bewear (Currently Unlisted, brought up recently)
120/135/130/75/110/30
Bewear @ Sablenite
Ability: Fluffy
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Facade/Frustration
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Bulk Up
This is the only better option I can see Bewear running. Sablenite gives it very good 120/130/110 bulk, more than usable 135 base Attack, and just reduces its speed as a penalty, something it had very little of in the first place. RestTalk gives it a form of recovery and dumping EVs into SpDef/HP and then giving it Careful + Bulk Up lets it set up late-game with Ghosts removed and generally win games without Pidgeotite Deoxys-Speed/Shaymin-Sky on the field.
None of these really stand out to me, on paper, as being remarkably overpowered or overcentralizing. This also opens up Azumarill and Diggersby to being able to be used, lightens a restriction, and makes Medichamite and Mawilite, or more accurately Huge/Pure Power, act more as it does in some other OMs where it is only available on Pokemon that naturally get it.
Hey, Its nice to see contributions. A couple of notes, however:
Policy discussion, like the rule change suggestion, go in the main thread. In this case, however, I can cut this off; Allowing Mawilite/medichamite would be a complex restriction, and thus will almost certainly not be happening.
Next, Thundurus-T is almost entirely outclassed by Thundy-I. Thundy-I has better speed, letting it outpace mons like Gengar, Cobalion and Lucarionite Terrakion, while having a close enough special attack for the distinction to be meaningless. Bewear, on a similar note, is outclassed as an attacker; its too slow, not strong enough, and not bulky enough. It's readily walled by just about any bulky pokemon, from support arceus to Zapdos, and has difficulties whenever it comes time to take hits; particularly in a meta infested with threats liek Shaynmin-S, thundurus, Terrakion, genesect and zygarde to hit it super effectively. Resttalk is just too unreliable, especially alongside bulk up, and leaves it complete ghost bait and almost total steel bait.
Durant seems as though it might have potential, but I've never seen it in action. Do you have any replays or importaant calcs showcasing its effectiveness that let it stand out from the shadow of pokemon like Kartana and Terrakion?
Durant does have a small niche (admittedly I haven't tested this so it might not work)
Durant @ [stone]
Ability: Truant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Entrainment
- Substitute / Iron Head
- Hone Claws / Iron Head
- Baton Pass
Use Entrainment pre-mega to force a switch, then mega and pass boosts/subs. Lucarionite is probably the best stone, though you could use Absolite.
On the other hand, I don't think this is worth anything beyond C or D rank, if that.
Durant does have a small niche (admittedly I haven't tested this so it might not work)
Durant @ [stone]
Ability: Truant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Entrainment
- Substitute / Iron Head
- Hone Claws / Iron Head
- Baton Pass
Use Entrainment pre-mega to force a switch, then mega and pass boosts/subs. Lucarionite is probably the best stone, though you could use Absolite.
On the other hand, I don't think this is worth anything beyond C or D rank, if that.
That's not a niche. Magic Bounce is everywhere, which makes entrainment bad at best, and anything pre mega can easily switch in and then evolve to replace it. To make matters worse, baton pass is banned by gen 7 mix and mega.
With No Guard, Inferno is a 100 BP, 100% accurate STAB move, with a 100% chance to burn and with increased power the first 5 turns because of original Ninetales' drought. Energy ball is good coverage (better than Solar Beam because you only get 5 turns of sun). Hypnosis is a 100% chance to put one enemy to sleep and Hex is good coverage against targets that are burned or sleeping.
Stats are : 391 SpA / 372 Spe which is pretty good too.
Shuckle @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 116 Def / 144 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Toxic / Infestation
- Rest / Infestation
Note that EVs are probably not optimal because I didn't run any calculation. The set is viable because Gyaradosite enhances Shuckle's resistances, making him a very sturdy sponge and Gyaradosite's Mold Breaker allow him to lay down his Web and his Rocks no matter what (bar taunt ofc), countering all the Magic Bouncers in the metagame. Toxic/Infestation is a good combo to bring down opponents, Rest+Infestation(+Toxic) give Shuckle the ability to trap and remove any non-ghost wall.
What I like about this set is that it easily fake the Lucarionite set, and that a lot of players are probably gonna throw their ground type coverage/STAB at Terrakion to kill him, effectively granting a free Swords Dance set. Might become less viable in the future though.
Steel/Dragon is a good typing, with Charizardite X, Klingklang's defense is very good and his attack stat is also high. With one shift gear he can destroy opponents and one shot the dangerous Mimikyu because Gear Grind hits two times. The tough claws boost makes Gear Grind a 65*2 steel STAB which is pretty high.
Krookodile @ Blue Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Aqua Tail
- Stealth Rock
Blue Orb give Krookodile a good amount of bulk, allowing him to switch into a lot of attackers, especially into Victini, plus the blue orb give him 433 Attack, coupled with a good offensive typing this is nothing to scoff at.
Tapu Koko @ Metagrossite
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Taunt/Roost
The combination of STAB, electric terrain the first 5 turns, and tough claws make Koko's wild charge hit extremely hard, plus Brave Bird is a really good coverage move against Grass types. U-turn hits harder than usual too and gives momentum, last slot depends, Roost is good to recover from the recoil, Taunt isn't as powerful as it is normally because of all the magic bouncers. Metagrossite also give Tapu Koko 170 Base Speed which is only beaten by Deoxys-Speed.
Roserade @ Red Orb
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Weather Ball
- Solar Beam
- Synthesis
- Leech Seed / Spikes / Stun Spore / Toxic Spikes / Toxic / Aromatherapy / Sleep Powder / HP Ground
Really powerful pokemon if there are no Blue Orbs, or if he switch into the Blue Orb holder. Weather ball is a 100BP Fire STAB, Solar Beam a 120BP Grass STAB, Grass/Fire is a powerful combination, Synthesis is a 75% HP heal, lots of slashes in the 4th moveslot because I have no idea which option is the best, team dependant. Ability doesn't matter because of none of them are useful before Red Orb applies.
Just wanting to post saying that the VR is in the middle of a huge revamp. The quoted post above is the VR as its been changed so far. I have only tackled the S and A ranks (and they are of course subject to change as well) as we are still in discussion on the whole thing, but I figured I would update and keep everyone posted as each section hits the "final stretch" so enjoy the new and improved S/A ranks of the VR. n_n
Probably others that can be added but these stuck out for now. Does anyone else have any other suggestions for an update to the speed tiers? The mix and mega council is looking to revamp the resources as they haven't been critiqued in a while and not many people have suggested updates. As always we greatly appreciate any and all feedback!
Just wanting to post saying that the VR is in the middle of a huge revamp. The quoted post above is the VR as its been changed so far. I have only tackled the S and A ranks (and they are of course subject to change as well) as we are still in discussion on the whole thing, but I figured I would update and keep everyone posted as each section hits the "final stretch" so enjoy the new and improved S/A ranks of the VR. n_n
It's mostly because Skymin simply dominates the meta rn. PDon is still ridiculously effective, has many threatening and very good sets (including SR, RP + 3 attacks, SD+3 attacks [or 2 + rocks/twave], and double dance), but Skymin truly is on a level of it's own due to the combination of great speed, outstanding special attack, and ability to bypass counters through drops+sleep.
Speaking of Skymin, the council is currently looking at whether or not it is banworthy. The majority opinion of the community seems to be that it is broken, and I have not really seen a good counter-argument against a ban. There are very few mons that can switch in on Skymin (Sablenite Blissey and Zapdos being the best two, and perhaps the only 2 relevant mons), and it has great coverage with just its STABs + Earth Power. Other than those two mons however, the rest of its checks (in terms of faster mons+priority users like Scarfers, ESpeed users, and Tapu Koko) can't switch in, and slower mons that might be able to take one hit and KO simply get put to sleep. Skymin is a very dominating force in the meta atm, and if you let your check get weakened then it's usually game over. What are your guys' thoughts?
Skymin is pretty busted, yeah. Like IT11 said, both Sablenite Blissey and Zapdos are the only two Pokemon that can reliably switch in on Shaymin.
Problem is, Sablenite Zapdos doesn't answer Groudon nearly as effectively as Venusaurite (I'm running Double Dance with P Blades and Fire Punch), and there's really nothing else that comfortably takes what Pidgeotite Skymin dishes out. I wouldn't be totally against a Pidgeotite suspect eventually (No Guard sleep and Zap Cannon spam both can go eat a dick), but Skymin could use a quickban while we're still short on Stones.
i think the prevalence of blissey and zapdos along with the amount of offensive things that kill skymin (zygarde, weavile, any -atespeeder) keep it in check for now. it's extremely annoying to deal with of course, but i think it's reasonable so far. while it wouldn't be my defining argument, it's also big to mention that it cannot switch into jack shit for the most part, especially with rocks up.
also, my team that got me like 8 on the ladder or smth idk it's decent, just pretty standard HO with some techs.
Golisopod @ Blue Orb
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- First Impression
standard iso, not a huge fan of toxic when you can just pivot around pdon or SD since i have other strong wincons. is your switchin to groudon and one of your three priority users. i like having dual priority as FI comes in handy vs like kartana, deo-s, weavile in certain situations, etc.
Deoxys-Defense @ Sablenite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Snatch
this is kind of a meme set so ur free to replace it with standard gyaradosite deo-s. if they have deo-s, you usually wanna lead iso so that you can kill it off the bat cuz they tend to lead w that. but otherwise, maybe lead with this. get rocks and spikes down as you can, and snatch is gimmicky but it effectively lets deo-d "taunt" faster mons with setup moves. if you're playing against like pinsirite zyg you can snatch a DD or two and then you're faster, you can toxic and maybe set up rocks and then just keep snatching etc. it's also cool if you're able to get bliss to toxic you and bounce it back as then you can just spam snatch so it can't heal bell/wish/soft. one thing to try out is recover over spikes as it means you can stall out stuff like zygarde or weavile or pdon a bit better, but then they can also set up and you and such. like i said tho this is a meme set, probably better to use something more consistent.
Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Fire Punch
standard doubledance pdon. EVs are for lucarionite koko but you could probs increase the speed to get the jump on other pdons (though i rarely get outsped), or decrease them just to get the jump on like pidgeotite koko (lowest i would ever go). RP sweeps offense, SD sweeps stall, pretty self-explanatory stuff. you could run tbolt or smth for iso but once again i think it's better to just pivot around it than run some niche move to dent it on the switch.
idk what skymins like to run in the last slot but HWish and aromatherapy look pretty good. you could run EP for redorb kou but usually they're scared out by you anyways, you can sleep them, do a good chunk with flare, etc. and just revenge raikou later. HWish is good though because oftentimes they're gonna have some shit like zapdos + bliss + koko/weavile or smth and skymin is kinda gonna be dead weight. aromatherapy is cool for if some of your sweepers are toxiced or para'd, but it's probs just better to HWish and heal one of them fully. i will note that if rocks aren't down and you have aromatherapy, you can pretty much pivot around with leech life iso, recover on ghostceus, and healing off toxics with aroma and pretty much give standard blissey no options against you.
this thing is sick af. strong priority, cheesy typing that you can mindgame with and get kills off of, and does well vs offense and defense. coil makes it easier to set up on things like +0 kartana, pdon, etc. and i'm just not really a fan of DD as with atespeed you kill most things faster than you (skymin, kartana, ghostceus, etc.) and speed is stronger than TArrows so yeah. ig it kinda sucks vs say glalite gene or EK arceus but imo the rewards outweigh it. 101 hp subs + ability to make 4 subs is bonkers; it turns sablenite bliss from a counter into free setup bait if you don't get toxiced (which they always try to do first, and then you sub). sub isn't broken by stoss and the sdef evs let you better take like random vswitches from zap on sub, can probably be optimized further. speed creeps min speed zyg and it usually outspeeds pdon and zap and such. you can mess with the speed and sdef evs a bit, and run dd>coil as well.
Arceus-Ghost @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Force
- Extreme Speed
- Recover
always liked this thing going back to like gen 5 ubers or smth. having more coverage moves would be nice but it's not necessary, though recover is kinda niche at times. it's nice for like setting up on weavile or letting you mess with blissey a bit by recovering a bunch if you get toxiced since you're immune to stoss. rest of the set is pretty standard; SD sweeps, neverending nightmare is crazy strong even without an SD boost, ES gives you a third form of priority though it's on the weaker side, force is nice for doing big damage after you use zmove.
here's an okay replay that demonstrates what most of the members are good for
Nominating Kyogre to B
Timid Scarf kyogre has just enough speed to outrun 150 base pokes, making it probs one of the best scarf user in the game. Water spout is able to ohko almost every offensive mon in the game. the only reliable pokes that are able to come in on it would be pdon and blissey, both dealt with using the right support. the main downfall would be priority users, but as long as its health isnt below 75%, it can take a hit and ohko back. i'll only nom it for B, cause even tho its great, pdon is still a pretty big problem for it, regardless if it can be chiped down easily...
Edit: forgot that red orb existed ugh but as i said, with right support, ogre is a beast
Nominating Kyogre to B
Timid Scarf kyogre has just enough speed to outrun 150 base pokes, making it probs one of the best scarf user in the game. Water spout is able to ohko almost every offensive mon in the game. the only reliable pokes that are able to come in on it would be pdon and blissey, both dealt with using the right support. the main downfall would be priority users, but as long as its health isnt below 75%, it can take a hit and ohko back. i'll only nom it for B, cause even tho its great, pdon is still a pretty big problem for it, regardless if it can be chiped down easily...
Adding on to this, Kyogre paired with Groundium Z Dugtrio allows it to bypass common Red Orb users such as Primal Groudon, Raikou, and Victini that would commonly switchin vs Kyogre's Water-type attacks. Once these checks are gone (and also if there is no Blissey in sight ofc), Kyogre can really clean up near the end of the game bc nothing really appreciates Water Spout under the Rain. Definitely agree with B for now.
Nominating Kyogre to B
Timid Scarf kyogre has just enough speed to outrun 150 base pokes, making it probs one of the best scarf user in the game. Water spout is able to ohko almost every offensive mon in the game. the only reliable pokes that are able to come in on it would be pdon and blissey, both dealt with using the right support. the main downfall would be priority users, but as long as its health isnt below 75%, it can take a hit and ohko back. i'll only nom it for B, cause even tho its great, pdon is still a pretty big problem for it, regardless if it can be chiped down easily...
Edit: forgot that red orb existed ugh but as i said, with right support, ogre is a beast
Adding on to this, Kyogre paired with Groundium Z Dugtrio allows it to bypass common Red Orb users such as Primal Groudon, Raikou, and Victini that would commonly switchin vs Kyogre's Water-type attacks. Once these checks are gone (and also if there is no Blissey in sight ofc), Kyogre can really clean up near the end of the game bc nothing really appreciates Water Spout under the Rain. Definitely agree with B for now.
Mostly agreeing, although my personal push would be only to B- (*cough* nv update *cough*). Pogre, like other scarfed ubers, is really threatening for offense. IMO its less so than Lunala and xerneas, who arent as hardwalled by pdon, but its still very hard to reliably switch into and can 1v1 a sizable portion of the metagame even aside from that. I cannot stress The speed tier enough; instead of losing to skymin / Tapukoko / Kartana like Manaphy does, it instead forces them out and smacks the switch.
i think zygarde-50 might just be s-tier but i think A+ is fine too. sets up on like half the meta, strong priority, can be used as a stallbreaker, performs great against balance teams as well, and can even mess with hyper offense since you have strong priority. i've been using offensive subcoil with 405 HP for stoss but you can also run DD sets and like a whole bunch of shit. losing to weavile kinda sucks (edit: really sucks) but otherwise it's just so good against every team style right now.
Arceus-Rock to B
I think that Arceus-Rock deserves B Rank mostly on the strength of its support set. Due to Altarianite being unreleased, Pinsirite is the stone of choice for most -ate users and Arceus-Rock's resistance to Flying, coupled with the natural bulk of any Arceus forme, make it a great -ate check. Its Judgment allows it to pressure Zapdos, Genesect, Entei, Raikou, etc. and it can also live a Low Kick from Weavile, retaliating with a OHKO. It isn't the best Arceus forme but it is certainly quite good in the current meta due to the prevalence of Zapdos and -ates, and deserves B Rank.
Chandelure to B
Chandelure is currently unranked but it deserves B Rank. Red Orb provides it with insane power (particularly on its Fire STAB) and the SubCM set is a fantastic stallbreaker. It can come in on extremely common Pokemon such as Golisopod and Blissey (due to its Ghost typing) and proceed to grab a Sub and set up. Overall a pretty good stallbreaker and wallbreaker, although it's low speed holds it back from going higher.
Thundurus to C
I haven't seen Thundurus in a long time, and when I've tried it it has been extremely underwhelming. I would much rather use Tapu Koko if I wanted a fast Electric-type, and one of Xurkitree or Raikou if I wanted more power. Thundurus simply seems outclassed at the moment, as it doesn't even have its old Lopunnite set (Superpower + Thunderbolt allowed it to defeat SkarmBliss with ease). Its only unique set would be some mediocre MMX stallbreaker set that tries to be that Lopunnite set, but less effectively, and still walled by Zapdos. Thundurus is simply not very good right now, which is why I believe it should be dropped to C Rank.
Landorus-T to B-/B
I'm really not sure why this is in C Rank. It has a fantastic Swords Dance set as well as a threatening double dance set that allow it to be quite scary, and taking on Zapdos (if Stone Edge), Primal Groudon (no matter what), and RP allows it to outspeed threats such as Tapu Koko and Shaymin-S. I think C is criminally under ranking this mon, and I think it should move up to B (although B- could work too).
Lunala to B+
Lunala has a cool typing and a fantastic ability. It's pretty powerful and the SubCM set dismantles stall. The Scarf set gives offense trouble and the Specs set threatens balance. It can be tailored to be good against whatever playstyle you want and Ghost is a great STAB in this meta atm. In addition, Shadow Shield all but guarantees you get a hit off, which is why I think it can be bumped up a subrank.
Keldeo to B-
This one is probably gonna be slightly controversial but I simply don't think it is effective right now. If you take a look at the VR the only things it really beats are Blissey, Skarmory (not nearly as common as it used to be), and Weavile. It's fairly slow at 130, as most things at least tie that. It loses to Skymin, Tapu Koko, Cresselia, Lunala, Chandelure, Kartana, Deo-S, Manaphy, -atespeeders, Magearna, and Xerneas, which is most of the B+ through S ranks. It is also checked by a bunch of other things such as PDon, Waterceus, Zapdos, and Raikou. It just isn't as effective as it once was (mostly thanks to Zapdos replacing Skarm as the -ate wall of choice) which is why I think it can be dropped to B-.
Vaporeon to B-
My last nom for now, but one I really think should happen. Vaporeon is a decent -ate check, a good Wish passer, can act as a cleric, spreads status via Scald + Toxic, and in general is a great defensive pivot as your classic bulky water with decent recovery. I know jrdn has used Vapo successfully and I really think it's a better mon than the others in C Rank which is why I think it should be bumped up.
Looking forward to what you all have to say on these noms!
VR noms! Thundurus to C
I haven't seen Thundurus in a long time, and when I've tried it it has been extremely underwhelming. I would much rather use Tapu Koko if I wanted a fast Electric-type, and one of Xurkitree or Raikou if I wanted more power. Thundurus simply seems outclassed at the moment, as it doesn't even have its old Lopunnite set (Superpower + Thunderbolt allowed it to defeat SkarmBliss with ease). Its only unique set would be some mediocre MMX stallbreaker set that tries to be that Lopunnite set, but less effectively, and still walled by Zapdos. Thundurus is simply not very good right now, which is why I believe it should be dropped to C Rank.
Thundurus is such an insanely good mon in mnm and it is so sad that you think it deserves to drop to c because of its Lopunnite set. The whole point for using Thundurus is having a fast and powerful mon that doesn't have to be worried about being walled by defensive switchins such as Blissey or Pdon due to nasty plot and focus blast combined with Pidgeotite.
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 269-317 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 406-478 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These are easy 2hkos on the two most prominent specially defensive walls in the meta, something that is very hard to accomplish for offensive special attackers. Against pdon all thund needs to do is get some damage off via a non boosted focus blast on a forced switchin to secure a kill from +2 later on in the match. Against Blissey Thund can just np up in its face and get rid of it thus opening up a hole for other non boosting offensive threats such as Genesect or Xerneas.
252 SpA Thundurus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaurite Zapdos: 220-261 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
???
252 SpA Thundurus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sablenite Zapdos: 180-213 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO
??????
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus: 147-174 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
?????????
The +60 s.atk boost combined with no guard high base power moves combined with nasty plot allows Thundurus to invalidate a lot of balance/stall builds just because it can boost past the s.def walls that would stop any other special boosting threat. It is just too strong for those types of teams to handle without dedicating a slot to a fast revenger such as Weavile or Tapu Koko. Yes Tapu Koko and other threats such as Pideotite Shaymin-Sky and Absolite Manphy outspeed it but Thund is still fast enough to outspeed threats such as Pidgeotite Gengar, Lucarionite Tapu Lele, Lucarionite Keldeo or Terrakion and all Arceus forms. Its speed tier isn't the fastest in the meta, but it is still very fast for a non Absol/Metagrossite user and can outspeed the majority of the stuff it needs to. stuff it needs to. Besides it doesn't die to unboosted ice beam from Absolite Manaphy...
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus: 226-268 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Meanwhile Shaymin-Sky has to hope for an air slash flinch, seed flare s.def drop or get its health whittled by substitute in order to beat Thundurus. The fact that it has the very good (while not top top level) speed tier combined with its boosted or even non boosted strength is what sets it apart from Xurkitree/Raikou in speed and Koko in power. It is very obvious that you haven't used Thundurus recently and I suggest you use it soon to refresh your memory.
DO NOT DROP THUNDURUS TO C
INSTEAD...
RAISE IT UP TO A+
Edit: if A+ is too high then move it to A but no way is it A-
Thundurus is such an insanely good mon in mnm and it is so sad that you think it deserves to drop to c because of its Lopunnite set. The whole point for using Thundurus is having a fast and powerful mon that doesn't have to be worried about being walled by defensive switchins such as Blissey or Pdon due to nasty plot and focus blast combined with Pidgeotite.
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 269-317 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 406-478 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These are easy 2hkos on the two most prominent specially defensive walls in the meta, something that is very hard to accomplish for offensive special attackers. Against pdon all thund needs to do is get some damage off via a non boosted focus blast on a forced switchin to secure a kill from +2 later on in the match. Against Blissey Thund can just np up in its face and get rid of it thus opening up a hole for other non boosting offensive threats such as Genesect or Xerneas.
252 SpA Thundurus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaurite Zapdos: 220-261 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
???
252 SpA Thundurus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sablenite Zapdos: 180-213 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO
??????
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus: 147-174 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
?????????
The +60 s.atk boost combined with no guard high base power moves combined with nasty plot allows Thundurus to invalidate a lot of balance/stall builds just because it can boost past the s.def walls that would stop any other special boosting threat. It is just too strong for those types of teams to handle without dedicating a slot to a fast revenger such as Weavile or Tapu Koko. Yes Tapu Koko and other threats such as Pideotite Shaymin-Sky and Absolite Manphy outspeed it but Thund is still fast enough to outspeed threats such as Pidgeotite Gengar, Lucarionite Tapu Lele, Lucarionite Keldeo or Terrakion and all Arceus forms. Its speed tier isn't the fastest in the meta, but it is still very fast for a non Absol/Metagrossite user and can outspeed the majority of the stuff it needs to. stuff it needs to. Besides it doesn't die to unboosted ice beam from Absolite Manaphy...
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus: 226-268 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Meanwhile Shaymin-Sky has to hope for an air slash flinch, seed flare s.def drop or get its health whittled by substitute in order to beat Thundurus. The fact that it has the very good (while not top top level) speed tier combined with its boosted or even non boosted strength is what sets it apart from Xurkitree/Raikou in speed and Koko in power. It is very obvious that you haven't used Thundurus recently and I suggest you use it soon to refresh your memory.
DO NOT DROP THUNDURUS TO C
INSTEAD...
RAISE IT UP TO A+
Edit: if A+ is too high then move it to A but no way is it A-
