M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #3: Pheromosa

Chloe

;w;
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#1

The Mix and Mega Council has decided that we will be conducting our third suspect test on Pheromosa.
This decision was made independent of the recent OU decision, as Mix and Mega tiering decisions are separate.

Note: The suspect test is solely for Pheromosa's ability to hold Mega Stones.​
Pheromosa has been a top-tier threat since [Gen 7] Mix and Mega's inception at the start of the generation. With access to such high offensive stats and a massive speed tier pre-Mega Evolution, its capabilities after the introduction of Adaptability and a buff to its aforementioned traits are simply phenomenal. It was kept in check by the abundance of Ghost Arceus and a select amount of defensive Pokémon; however, since their decline, its viability has increased above what's acceptable in the current metagame. The introduction of Pidgeotite two weeks ago has made Pheromosa borderline unbearable in the metagame. This Mega Stone has pushed it over the edge, with some players requiring dedicated answers such as Chandelure, Jellicent and Tapu Fini. This has resulted in it unambiguously requiring a suspect test.

Lucarionite | Adaptability | 71/172/55/162/37/173 (670 BST)
Pidgeotite | No Guard | 71/137/42/202/47/171 (670 BST)
COIL: 2800
B: 10.5

How many battles you'll need to make reqs:
Code:
GXE N
100 20
95 24
90 29
85 37
80 55
75 105
To determine the amount of games you'll need to play to obtain requirements, input your GXE into Google Calculator using the equation "N=10.5/log2(40*GXE/2800)".
Alternatively you can input your GXE into this.

Where do I post reqs?
Post your suspect requirements proof in this thread, along with your vote. Ban, No Ban, or Abstain in bold so it makes it easier to tell what your vote is when counting.
You do not require a specific username, any alt may be used, as long as you provide a screenshot of requirements and proof that the alt is yours.

You may also discuss the current suspect test within this thread, as the thread is not limited to posting reqs.

Pheromosa is banned (from holding Mega Stones) for the duration of the suspect test.
The suspect test will last for two weeks, ending on April 26th.
60% Ban Majority required to Ban Pheromosa.


TL;DR.
- Suspecting Pheromosa from holding Mega Stones.
- COIL requirement is 2800, B value is 10.5
- Pheromosa will be banned from holding Mega Stones during suspect testing process.
- Post reqs proof on thread with vote in bold so it's easier to count.
- Suspect will end on April 26th.
- 60% ban vote required to ban.

The Immortal :>
 
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#2
Sorry if this post sounds irrelevant and such, but I want to try out this suspect. What is GXE and all of that, and how does it relate to suspect tests?

Chloedit: Moved to suspect thread.
 

Chloe

;w;
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#3
Sorry if this post sounds irrelevant and such, but I want to try out this suspect. What is GXE and all of that, and how does it relate to suspect tests?
GXE is a value you're given while laddering that indicates roughly the chance you have of beating a random opponent on the ladder. This isn't incredibly important to the suspect, as the main value you need to focus on is COIL. COIL goes up when you win, and goes down when you lose (most of the time). You need to hit 2800 in COIL to be able to vote in this suspect. All the other values are just indicators of how difficult it will be to achieve this number, so that it can be contrasted with other suspect tests.

Please note that COIL is only obtainable on the dedicated "Mix and Mega (suspect test)" ladder. Do not try to get reqs prior to that ladder's implementation.
 
#4
Finally. It is well documented that I hate stall but this thing needs to go.
202 SpAtk STAB Focus Blast that can never miss, or the simply overwhelming power of Adaptability.

It needs to be reiterated that, in the eyes of many, Phero is not broken because of any single stone, it is broken because of it's unpredictability, massive speed and incredible versatility.
It can use 3, arguably 4 stones with spectacular results and the only real counter to this monster being Priority.

Lucarionite | Adaptability | 71/172/55/162/37/173 (670 BST)
Pidgeotite | No Guard | 71/137/42/202/47/171 (670 BST)
Metagrossite | Tough Claws | 71/147/57/147/57/191 (670 BST)
Absolite | Magic Bounce | 71/157/37/177/37/191 (670 BST)

4 MStones each with their own perks and ideal movesets.
Lucarionite for raw physical power, with a possible mixed set, Pidgeotite for a godly special attacker, Meta for faster, slightly less powerful physical attacker, and Absolite for an incredibly fast mixed attacker.
 

drampa's grandpa

formerly The Ruins of Alpha
#5
Finally. It is well documented that I hate stall but this thing needs to go.
202 SpAtk STAB Focus Blast that can never miss, or the simply overwhelming power of Adaptability.

It needs to be reiterated that, in the eyes of many, Phero is not broken because of any single stone, it is broken because of it's unpredictability, massive speed and incredible versatility.
It can use 3, arguably 4 stones with spectacular results and the only real counter to this monster being Priority.

Lucarionite | Adaptability | 71/172/55/162/37/173 (670 BST)
Pidgeotite | No Guard | 71/137/42/202/47/171 (670 BST)
Metagrossite | Tough Claws | 71/147/57/147/57/191 (670 BST)
Absolite | Magic Bounce | 71/157/37/177/37/191 (670 BST)

4 MStones each with their own perks and ideal movesets.
Lucarionite for raw physical power, with a possible mixed set, Pidgeotite for a godly special attacker, Meta for faster, slightly less powerful physical attacker, and Absolite for an incredibly fast mixed attacker.
Metagrossite / Absolite make it a great anti deo-s lead, as it outspeeds Gyaradosite variants and obviously OHKOs. Its ability to effectively destroy stall and offensemons without priority makes it banworthy imo.

Flaws are: frailty leading to susceptibility to priority, especially Aerispeed. This isn't as bad as in other tiers with many mega stones thanks to the bulk increase, but it is still 1-2hko'd by basically all used priority.

No sash to set up with.

People hate you for using it.

It really needs OHKOs and it gets a lot of 2hkos on things or hits neutrally... however this means things can't switch in, so once it's in- say on a slow u-turn- it can wreck face.

That's about it?
 
#6
Metagrossite / Absolite make it a great anti deo-s lead, as it outspeeds Gyaradosite variants and obviously OHKOs. Its ability to effectively destroy stall and offensemons without priority makes it banworthy imo.

Flaws are: frailty leading to susceptibility to priority, especially Aerispeed. This isn't as bad as in other tiers with many mega stones thanks to the bulk increase, but it is still 1-2hko'd by basically all used priority.

No sash to set up with.

People hate you for using it.

It really needs OHKOs and it gets a lot of 2hkos on things or hits neutrally... however this means things can't switch in, so once it's in- say on a slow u-turn- it can wreck face.

That's about it?
The main problem is it has very high attacking and speed stats, plus decent coverage, and nothing can swap in on it safely, shy of Red orb Chendelure.

Pidgeotite calcs w/timid:
252 SpA Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 211-250 (52.3 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Pheromosa Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Golisopod: 153-181 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Blue orb Goli with max special bulk.)
0 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 362-428 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Sablenite Bliss)

Three calcs from some serious bulk from three of the most used mons in the OM, all 2HKO'd with rocks, all paired with a terrifying 191 speed, and this is just one stone. It can easily run 4 stones. You essentially play a guessing game and sac a mon to get your -atespeed in there. Even there, pair Phero up with Lele and poof, biggest weakness gone for a few turns if played well.

But, I am only a casual player. I am interested in seeing more pro opinions on this.
 
#7

looks like I'm first

Vote: DO NOT BAN

Reasoning: From the start, I've always felt Pheromosa shouldn't have been allowed to hold a stone. I've always seen her as a "deoxys mini" with a tiny bit more speed and a moveset that any sweeper would die for, so her being banned from OU comes as no surprise. However, this is not OU, meaning Pheromosa isn't as much of a threat and in fact, i would consider her fodder. Her frailty coupled with a predictable moveset means you don't necessarily need to prepare specifically for her. Unless she has support from Tapu Lele, merely running priority should deal with her, not to mention she's almost unusable if your opponent runs sticky webs. So, while her stats oft surpass the likes of deoxys attack and my opinion of her hasn't changed, she's pretty easy to deal with in the current meta and is not centralizing in the slightest.

 
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Sylveon.

formerly darksylvion
#8
Well, I don't know whether I'd have the time to get reqs so I'll just post my opinion for now.

Though no doubt Pheromosa has been a humongous offensive threat since it's inception, but the biggest issue it faces in my humble opinion is the predictability factor. No, I am not saying the set is predictable from the onset, I am pretty well aware of the fact that it can utilize variety of stones all of which work differently, but what I want to stress on is the fact that it always has the same type coverage i.e. fighting/bug/ice(considerably weaker than other two).

What it does, irrespective of it having the unpredictability factor of being special/physical it fixes those checks in common fairy/ghost types, which are generally easy to slap onto various teams due to ability to check fighting types in general, hence making pheromosa "another fighting type" . And I am pretty sure I don't need to stress on the fact that for offensive teams it's quite easy to deal with by priority or capitalizing on it's inability to secure 1hkoes on neutral hits. And as someone said above webs though not completely but to some extent nullify the speed factor, not to say even more sets like pidgeotite deo-s are emerging which just out-speed and kill any pheromosa set.

So, to sum up unless further stones like lopunnite/altarianite are released which just completely change it's offensive coverage( one allows it to hit ghost types while other gives it STAB fairy coverage), imo Phero is strong but not ban-worthy at all.
 
#9
Hey y'all. I will eventually be voting ban for several reasons

1. Pheromosa completely wrecks many teams. As soon as the -ate speeds are out, game's basically over, esp. if phero has Lucarionite or Aerodactylite.
2. Phero is a Pretty LowRisk-High reward. Uturn is a safe switch on almost anything.
3. Phero isn't outclassed by ANYONE. Honestly, it's only flaw is that i gets 2 shot by priority.

And with this ban, I am hoping to ban 2 other mons, or at least have a suspect on them

1. Genesect - Honestly, it does too much damage with an espeed after one download boost. Few counters to it once it gains even one shift gear as it gains blaze kick. One Aggronite comes out we can unban this beast but until then, i think he should be 'put down'
2. Blissey- 255/80/135 bulk is just ridiculous, especially when your one weakness is fighting. Can either gain shell armor or Magic Bounce, and gets tons of coverage. It's honestly destroying the meta, and if you have a ghost type and then Blissey, you're all set. Please consider this ban.

Anyways, enjoy the meta with these mons, as with any luck, they'll get banned :P
 
#10
My proof (couldnt get a file to load directly off my tablet) :https://imgur.com/gallery/WIm5r

Vote: DO NOT BAN

Reasoning: Honestly I have not spent more than 4 days in this tier before the suspect test began but despite having laddered all the way to the top , phero in itself has posed very little threat for me as I was going up , honestly with the right mons the thing gets walled or gets one shotted easily by priority. Honestly the very tier of mnm is composed of many unrealistically hard hitting monsters , and some incredibly tanky ones. Phero is just one of those monsters. Phero is already gonna fall slowly into disuse after being banned to ubers , there should at least be some place where the thing can safely roam free for those who may want to use it. Honestly in the tier there are things much more threatening than phero and are more well known for leaving huge dents or sweeping entier teams if given the opportunity , such as lucarionite terrakion or pinsirite genesect (the latter of which i feel needed the suspect more). Honestly just straight banning phero from allowing it to use stones would just cause it to fall into disuse and just be one of the mons in ubers just collecting dust or be the one others struggle desperately to use.
 

Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
#11
MnM reqs 3.JPG


Ok would like to share some opinions...

looks like I'm first

Vote: DO NOT BAN

Reasoning: From the start, I've always felt Pheromosa shouldn't have been allowed to hold a stone. I've always seen her as a "deoxys mini" with a tiny bit more speed and a moveset that any sweeper would die for, so her being banned from OU comes as no surprise. However, this is not OU, meaning Pheromosa isn't as much of a threat and in fact, i would consider her fodder. Her frailty coupled with a predictable moveset means you don't necessarily need to prepare specifically for her. Unless she has support from Tapu Lele, merely running priority should deal with her, not to mention she's almost unusable if your opponent runs sticky webs. So, while her stats oft surpass the likes of deoxys attack and my opinion of her hasn't changed, she's pretty easy to deal with in the current meta and is not centralizing in the slightest.
I really feel that you are inflating Pheromosa's downsides here. I won't deny that Pheromosa does have relevant checks in Aegislash, Arceus-Ghost, and priority users. However, the issue with Phero that also made it banworthy in OU is the fact that it can weaken these checks by pivoting out against them and them netting the KO later on. The introduction of Pidgeotite also means that Pheromosa can hit extremely hard from both sides of the offensive spectrum, increasing its flexibility (which is what broke the straw on the camels back imo). Pheromosa has warped the MnM metagame around it after Dnite's ban, where semi-defensive Ghost-types have almost come a necessity on more defensive builds in order to have a switchin against it. Although priority is more common in this meta, it still does not keep Phero in check imo (especially since Phero + Psy terrain is actually stupid), and keeping it in the meta adds more cons then positives. Which is why I am voting to BAN it.
 
#12


I think I have the reqs

Vote: BAN

( I don't know if my English is good, so I don't know if you will understand :P )

My opinion is rather the same as the one of Baytay.
U-Turn weakens its checks and grabs momentum.
Pheromosa have a great flexibility with the access at 3 good stones ( Absolite is worth than the 3 others ) with their own advantages ( and do not miss our attacks is pretty pleasant with the Pidgeotite btw )
Altarianite is currently not released, so Glalilite and Pinsirite are the only -ate gems. Zygarde Aerilate and Genesect Aerilate are great checks to Pheromosa, but Flying type give them a Stealh Rock weakness. Add U-Turn chip damages, and they will be K.Oed easily.
Glalilite Weavile can K.O Pheromosa with Fake Out + Feint, but he's very frail, have a SR weakness and is OHKOed by U-Turn
The only counters of Pheromosa are Arceus-Ghost and Aegislash, but Aegi is pretty bad with its inability to hold a Stone.
Oh, and Primal-Groudon is 2HKO by a Lucarionite Focus Blast with 4 EV SpA after Stealth Rock.
Special mention to Venusaurite Zapdos who handle Phero pretty well
 
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drampa's grandpa

formerly The Ruins of Alpha
#13
My proof (couldnt get a file to load directly off my tablet) :https://imgur.com/gallery/WIm5r

Vote: DO NOT BAN

Reasoning: Honestly I have not spent more than 4 days in this tier before the suspect test began but despite having laddered all the way to the top , phero in itself has posed very little threat for me as I was going up , honestly with the right mons the thing gets walled or gets one shotted easily by priority. Honestly the very tier of mnm is composed of many unrealistically hard hitting monsters , and some incredibly tanky ones. Phero is just one of those monsters. Phero is already gonna fall slowly into disuse after being banned to ubers , there should at least be some place where the thing can safely roam free for those who may want to use it. Honestly in the tier there are things much more threatening than phero and are more well known for leaving huge dents or sweeping entier teams if given the opportunity , such as lucarionite terrakion or pinsirite genesect (the latter of which i feel needed the suspect more). Honestly just straight banning phero from allowing it to use stones would just cause it to fall into disuse and just be one of the mons in ubers just collecting dust or be the one others struggle desperately to use.
Hey not to be rude or anything, but whether or not Pheromosa will be good after being banned from using stones is entirely irrelevant here, just like how good something will be in Ubers is irrelevant to an OU suspect. Either it's too good for the tier or it's not.
 
#16
https://gyazo.com/2cfd9a4922939000e3b1864fc807a6b0

I have a bit of a story with Pheromosa... I made my first team with testing this insect in mind to make sure it actually lived up to all of the hype. And yes, it did, by the fact that the team is actually a sample, and has been for a few months.

At first, I thought Pheromosa was balanced by the fact that certain types were pretty good walls to its STAB combination, and the fact that you can utilize Protect to just make it hurt itself. But the more I played... the more I realized that Pheromosa might be busted. The arguments that I have seen calling for it to remain have not been nearly strong enough, and are just... not helpful. I'm going to BAN Pheromosa, as well, for a few reasons below.

While Pheromosa is incredibly frail, and some beefier targets require a bit of softening up, that's where Pheromosa's faults end. It has a pivot move to make up for being ultra frail, making it the ultimate hit and run sweeper.
The Lucarionite set has stupid amounts of power. I've always felt that it was Pheromosa's best set, considering it doesn't even need that much speed to just outrun everything, even Gyaradosite Deoxys. The Pidgeotite set is good too, as a special mixup. Almost every bit as powerful as the Physical one, with a setup move (if they are scared) and no recoil risk.

...But most of all...

Lopunnite. The funny thing is that I was right on pretty much all of my UB analyses, except (arguably) Kartana... from day one of the thread. Hitting Ghosts is STUPID, and is basically just the ultimate auto-pilot to kill everything without priority or obscene bulk, given its STAB off of base 197 attack, which is dumb. Look at these dumb calcs for proof... (these are all Lopunnite, for reference)

252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Red Orb Chandelure: 292-345 (111.8 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ghost: 249-294 (65.3 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Ghost: 204-240 (45.9 - 54%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Jellicent: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 186-219 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (can't win them all)
252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Galvantula: 237-280 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (It LIVES this dumb thing?)

And it has room to run HP Flying, if it really wants to smack Buzzwole around. And yes, I know. Lopunnite isn't released. But this thing is already very powerful, but Scrappy... no. No. This cannot be a thing that actually exists in the tier. It would become a black hole, and consume everything. Hope this is enough justification.
 
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#17


Vote: DO NOT BAN

Is banning everything really going to create a healthier metagame? I mean, yes, Pheromosa is very strong if not the most hard-hitting pokemon in the meta + U-turn to deal with anything that can kill it and still deal a considerable ammount of damage even against something that resists it. But phero's incredibly predictable, the only thing you'll try and guess is its set, after that you know every move it's going to use, and if you put some thought into it, it's quite easy to indetify the any safe switchins phero might use after u-turning out. While it is possible to make a whole team around phero and make it a complete beast, you'd be investing way too many resources into 1 pokemon that is so incredibly frail that one mistake costs you the game. Sorry for the ramble, but in conlusion, Phero remaining in the meta makes for new pokemon who wouldn't be viable before show up to check it like the Pinsirite Terrakion, or Lycanrock (This one made my day). It was also the stupidity of Dragonite that made me discover one of my favorite off-meta sets, the Scarfed Lele. Stupidly overpowered pokemon calls for stupidly interesting sets.

I know my reasoning isn't quite enough (and I'd even say it's bad) but the meta is ever-evolving, if phero remains, more phero checks will come to the point when it's barely viable, then checks to that start showing up. And I just want to see that happen.
 
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#18
Can I claim this as my triumphant return?
BAN
I wasn't around to see Phero when Pidgeotite came back, and I'm glad. I'm sure it was a mess with that beastly SpA as well as even beastlier Stabs, the mere thought of getting rid of Beast Boost boosts this beast to being far too beastly for any purpose. Hopefully, this and Darkrai will be the only bans resulting from Pidgeotite's existence, otherwise we may have to call the stone itself into question...

Anyways s/o to people who use Pidgeoxys-S without Nasty Plot, people who think Glalitite on anything without stab is good, and that one guy who always uses Shuckle and snaps at people when he loses for all being super easy to beat :>
↓↓↓↓↓↓↓
 

Attachments

#20
Reqs for mnm.PNG


When you want to get reqs in a metagame you don't play so you use the first sample team you find. Ban I guess? Pheromosa's wildly absurd stats lets it use a wide variety of stones. With the supreme annoyance that is pidgeotite, Pheromosa is very powerful and fast. With more stones coming out like Lopunnite, that let it even further get around it's checks and counters, Pheromosa seems like a simple enough ban. The only thing that could really hold it back is it's potential for getting revenge killed by pretty much every -atespeed user. But, if Pheromosa is pretty much mandating you sac a pokemon so you can try to KO it with espeed, it's obviously broken.
 
#24
COIL.PNG


I say BAN MEGA-PHERO

I haven't even thought about what Pheromosa could do with Metagross/Absolite, since I've been a little preoccupied with Pidgeotite. But now that those have been mentioned, that's even more reason to ban Phero. The number of sets she could run, give how she's able to kick serious rear with one of any four (or even five) Mega Stones just means you need to basically plan ahead for any set, or else you get demolished. The fact that you need to basically have a 'mon for every stone Phero normally runs means that Mega Phero is, indeed, INCREDIBLY over-centralizing.
 
#25
View attachment 81095

I say BAN MEGA-PHERO

I haven't even thought about what Pheromosa could do with Metagross/Absolite, since I've been a little preoccupied with Pidgeotite. But now that those have been mentioned, that's even more reason to ban Phero. The number of sets she could run, give how she's able to kick serious rear with one of any four (or even five) Mega Stones just means you need to basically plan ahead for any set, or else you get demolished. The fact that you need to basically have a 'mon for every stone Phero normally runs means that Mega Phero is, indeed, INCREDIBLY over-centralizing.
Hang on there. You'll need about 620 more COIL for that vote to count. But I do appreciate your aplomb with your statement.