M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #3: Pheromosa

#26
ladder proof Coil.png


Hi guys, with my current experience i would say : Ban Phero,
One of the first things i saw at first is my teams and others at high elo where mostly build around or against Phero, yes it have revenge killer, but with pidgeotite it had a new set and thus making it even more unpredictable and so making it unhealthy for the meta since all of her set are really good. I loved to play it but let's face it it's not good for the meta.
 
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#28
ABSTAIN

im voting abstain bc i dont really play this tier and i did the suspect for fun, so wouldn't really be fair for me to say on pheromosa considering i never played an mnm game with it allowed to hold stones (although lucarionite/pidgeotite sound super broken). ladder quality was pretty meh but the games i had against real teams were super fun! i definitely enjoyed my first experience with this metagame. ban blue orb golisopod tho lmao
 

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#33
proof.png


Hopefully this is acceptable.

I'm going to say DO NOT BAN.

Here are my two biggest reasons why I say no ban:

1. Pheromosa's kryptonite is priority, especially in this metagame. Nearly every team has priority moves like Glatiate Weavile for example or Pinsirite Zygarde. Any type of priority brings this bug down, no matter how much defense you have on it.

2. This thing will be completely unusable if it is banned. Pheromosa will just become a mon in Mix and Mega with absolutely no use. It'll suffer the same fate as Dragonite, collecting dust and just be a fossil along with Darkrai and potentially Genesect.
 
#34
1. Pheromosa's kryptonite is priority, especially in this metagame. Nearly every team has priority moves like Glatiate Weavile for example or Pinsirite Zygarde. Any type of priority brings this bug down, no matter how much defense you have on it.
Pheromosa does not just die to priority, it's deceptively bulky. It might not be a fucking Shuckle but that doesn't mean you can use some bullshit like Infestation and say that it just dies, with Metagrossite it can live an Adamant Lucarionite Mamoswine Ice Shard and it also can live Normalceus Life Orb Espeed. So no, Pheromosa isn't complete paper. While it's not as bulky as other Pokemon, it's fast enough and bulky enough that it can take priority and KO with a ridiculously powerful HJK, pivot out while dealing damage with U-Turn or even use Poison Jab to catch sufficiently weakened fairies off guard.

2. This thing will be completely unusable if it is banned. Pheromosa will just become a mon in Mix and Mega with absolutely no use. It'll suffer the same fate as Dragonite, collecting dust and just be a fossil along with Darkrai and potentially Genesect.
Cry about it, it's being banned.

e:
2. This thing will be completely unusable if it is banned. Pheromosa will just become a mon in Mix and Mega with absolutely no use. It'll suffer the same fate as Dragonite, collecting dust and just be a fossil along with Darkrai and potentially Genesect.
My proof (couldnt get a file to load directly off my tablet) :https://imgur.com/gallery/WIm5r

Vote: DO NOT BAN

Reasoning: Honestly I have not spent more than 4 days in this tier before the suspect test began but despite having laddered all the way to the top , phero in itself has posed very little threat for me as I was going up , honestly with the right mons the thing gets walled or gets one shotted easily by priority. Honestly the very tier of mnm is composed of many unrealistically hard hitting monsters , and some incredibly tanky ones. Phero is just one of those monsters. Phero is already gonna fall slowly into disuse after being banned to ubers , there should at least be some place where the thing can safely roam free for those who may want to use it. Honestly in the tier there are things much more threatening than phero and are more well known for leaving huge dents or sweeping entier teams if given the opportunity , such as lucarionite terrakion or pinsirite genesect (the latter of which i feel needed the suspect more). Honestly just straight banning phero from allowing it to use stones would just cause it to fall into disuse and just be one of the mons in ubers just collecting dust or be the one others struggle desperately to use.
:thinking:
 
#35
Pheromosa does not just die to priority, it's deceptively bulky. It might not be a fucking Shuckle but that doesn't mean you can use some bullshit like Infestation and say that it just dies, with Metagrossite it can live an Adamant Lucarionite Mamoswine Ice Shard and it also can live Normalceus Life Orb Espeed. So no, Pheromosa isn't complete paper. While it's not as bulky as other Pokemon, it's fast enough and bulky enough that it can take priority and KO with a ridiculously powerful HJK, pivot out while dealing damage with U-Turn or even use Poison Jab to catch sufficiently weakened fairies off guard.



Cry about it, it's being banned.

e:

:thinking:
Good points, good points. And if it does get banned, oh well, it gets banned. Just putting my two cents of Pheromosa.
 
#36
2. This thing will be completely unusable if it is banned. Pheromosa will just become a mon in Mix and Mega with absolutely no use. It'll suffer the same fate as Dragonite, collecting dust and just be a fossil along with Darkrai and potentially Genesect.
want to re-emphasise this:
Hey not to be rude or anything, but whether or not Pheromosa will be good after being banned from using stones is entirely irrelevant here, just like how good something will be in Ubers is irrelevant to an OU suspect. Either it's too good for the tier or it's not.
don't have a personal opinion but that's why I haven't tried for reqs :]
I have to say though, that a lot of the reasoning on both sides has been pretty shoddy, imo.
 
#37
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I don't really feel very strongly either way, but playing the format has been more fun without Pheromosa. I've come across a lot more varied teams and strategies now that the bug-crutch is gone, as and such I will vore BAN.
 
#38

I would personally vote for BAN, as it is getting way too diverse with all the stones releasing. I can see Pheromosa still viable with awesome coverage and 151 base speed which is insane. I believe people will discover ways to use it such as Focus Sash, Choice Scarf, or Life Orb to make the metagame more fun.
 
#39
Alright, so I've never played this metagame a day in my life before now. I used a sample team from the forums and got reqs in a few hours. I feel like there's something else unhealthy for the metagame if it was that easy to just ladder up and get reqs without having prior knowledge of anything to do with this tier. If pheromosa is indeed so unhealthy for the meta, then I wonder why it was so easy to ladder and get reqs. Either way I'm going to Abstain from voting since I have no real knowledge of this tier. I just offer food for thought as I'm going to explain my experience on the ladder for this test anyway.
M&M suspect reqs.jpg

^ proof of reqs

So my experience on the ladder is that Pidgeotite is kind of busted in the sense that it forces sleep fodder because hypnosis can't miss. (Xurkitree in particular is a very solid user of this it seems). I learned that the scariest thing in existence is double dance Primal-Groudon, which is basically the same in Ubers. Pinsirite Zygarde basically sweeps if there isn't a proper check for it such as Glalitite Weavile which I saw a ton of. Mimikyu is straight up a monster. Lucarionite Hoopa brings the "no counters" argument to another level. Blue Orb Golisopod is something I noticed on a good 25% of teams that I faced. I wonder if it is truly that common regularly. I got swept by Never Ending Nightmare Arceus-Ghost once. Surprised that isn't more common as I only ever saw one. I ran into genesect about 5 or 6 times total and it only put in work once, still didn't have enough trouble from it to lose any game. It's S rank isn't it? There were about 5 battles where my Sableyenite Suicune straight up walled an entire team without support. I also made my own team after I got reqs and started to use it on another account and it is currently 32 wins and 2 losses and I'm 5th on the suspect ladder (2812 COIL) on that account.
Screenshot_12.jpg

^ another proof of reqs

My comments from playing around in this suspect test are that regardless of whether or not Pheromosa is unhealthy for the metagame, there are probably several other things that are unhealthy for the metagame as well because it was just way too easy for someone with not metagame experience to get reqs. I legit threw a team together that looked like it made sense and I went 32 wins and 2 losses with it. I think that says something for the metagame in some regard to my above comments. There's more than just pheromosa that's a problem.
 
#40
Alright, so I've never played this metagame a day in my life before now. I used a sample team from the forums and got reqs in a few hours. I feel like there's something else unhealthy for the metagame if it was that easy to just ladder up and get reqs without having prior knowledge of anything to do with this tier. If pheromosa is indeed so unhealthy for the meta, then I wonder why it was so easy to ladder and get reqs. Either way I'm going to Abstain from voting since I have no real knowledge of this tier. I just offer food for thought as I'm going to explain my experience on the ladder for this test anyway.
View attachment 81217
^ proof of reqs

So my experience on the ladder is that Pidgeotite is kind of busted in the sense that it forces sleep fodder because hypnosis can't miss. (Xurkitree in particular is a very solid user of this it seems). I learned that the scariest thing in existence is double dance Primal-Groudon, which is basically the same in Ubers. Pinsirite Zygarde basically sweeps if there isn't a proper check for it such as Glalitite Weavile which I saw a ton of. Mimikyu is straight up a monster. Lucarionite Hoopa brings the "no counters" argument to another level. Blue Orb Golisopod is something I noticed on a good 25% of teams that I faced. I wonder if it is truly that common regularly. I got swept by Never Ending Nightmare Arceus-Ghost once. Surprised that isn't more common as I only ever saw one. I ran into genesect about 5 or 6 times total and it only put in work once, still didn't have enough trouble from it to lose any game. It's S rank isn't it? There were about 5 battles where my Sableyenite Suicune straight up walled an entire team without support. I also made my own team after I got reqs and started to use it on another account and it is currently 32 wins and 2 losses and I'm 5th on the suspect ladder (2812 COIL) on that account. View attachment 81221
^ another proof of reqs

My comments from playing around in this suspect test are that regardless of whether or not Pheromosa is unhealthy for the metagame, there are probably several other things that are unhealthy for the metagame as well because it was just way too easy for someone with not metagame experience to get reqs. I legit threw a team together that looked like it made sense and I went 32 wins and 2 losses with it. I think that says something for the metagame in some regard to my above comments. There's more than just pheromosa that's a problem.
There may well be some other problem, possibly skymin, but another factor here is that the suspect reqs were set lower than is ideal. With reqs liek this, it's relatively easy for nearly anyone to vote.
 
#41
There may well be some other problem, possibly skymin, but another factor here is that the suspect reqs were set lower than is ideal. With reqs liek this, it's relatively easy for nearly anyone to vote.
It's very hard to make a happy medium here without making it stupidly difficult to get reqs (see: 1st draft of Dragonite suspect). I personal feel it's better to err on the side of ease than on the side of difficulty. We deserve to see the full spectrum of votes here; I won't be giving the people that voted for not banning Pheromosa too hard of a time.

Also we should quickban Skymin, imo. Even if it does get wrecked by -ate... (But more on that in the main thread once this is done)
 
#42
It's very hard to make a happy medium here without making it stupidly difficult to get reqs (see: 1st draft of Dragonite suspect). I personal feel it's better to err on the side of ease than on the side of difficulty. We deserve to see the full spectrum of votes here; I won't be giving the people that voted for not banning Pheromosa too hard of a time.

Also we should quickban Skymin, imo. Even if it does get wrecked by -ate... (But more on that in the main thread once this is done)
Yeah, I did notice a ton of shaymin while laddering both times. There's no true counter and it's just really annoying to face in general because it's a skymin. When you have about 190 special attack and STAB moves that never miss you have a recipe for ragequit
 
#43
It's very hard to make a happy medium here without making it stupidly difficult to get reqs (see: 1st draft of Dragonite suspect). I personal feel it's better to err on the side of ease than on the side of difficulty. We deserve to see the full spectrum of votes here; I won't be giving the people that voted for not banning Pheromosa too hard of a time.

Also we should quickban Skymin, imo. Even if it does get wrecked by -ate... (But more on that in the main thread once this is done)
The suspect test was much too easy. Several players, including myself, with no prior knowledge of the meta got the reqs required.
 
#44
Hello. Hopefully the attached proof will suffice, sorry I'm not named the same on PS! as my forum name.



I believe this is my first suspect test and it's with a meta I'm quite familiar with, it's basically all I ladder on nowadays. Anyways, I am choosing to vote DO NOT BAN for this one. I really don't have much of a complicated reason for this. My team which is admittedly not that great has had literally no problems with Pheromosa at all, physical or special. The reason for this is that literally any priority (with Golisopod, Weavile, and a bunch of Pinisirite Extremespeed users, it's certainly not uncommon) kills it easily. Even Weavile two shots it with Fake Out and Feint most of the time in my experience. Though to be frank, the suspect test has opened my eyes to how broken Deoxys-Speed @ Pidgeotite is, maybe a suspect test for that ought to be in order next?

Now I have a question if you folks don't mind, if I play some more MNM between now and the 26th, and lose my COIL (let's hope that doesn't happen but it might), will I lose my vote?
 
#46
Alright, so I've never played this metagame a day in my life before now. I used a sample team from the forums and got reqs in a few hours. I feel like there's something else unhealthy for the metagame if it was that easy to just ladder up and get reqs without having prior knowledge of anything to do with this tier. If pheromosa is indeed so unhealthy for the meta, then I wonder why it was so easy to ladder and get reqs. Either way I'm going to Abstain from voting since I have no real knowledge of this tier. I just offer food for thought as I'm going to explain my experience on the ladder for this test anyway.
View attachment 81217
^ proof of reqs

So my experience on the ladder is that Pidgeotite is kind of busted in the sense that it forces sleep fodder because hypnosis can't miss. (Xurkitree in particular is a very solid user of this it seems). I learned that the scariest thing in existence is double dance Primal-Groudon, which is basically the same in Ubers. Pinsirite Zygarde basically sweeps if there isn't a proper check for it such as Glalitite Weavile which I saw a ton of. Mimikyu is straight up a monster. Lucarionite Hoopa brings the "no counters" argument to another level. Blue Orb Golisopod is something I noticed on a good 25% of teams that I faced. I wonder if it is truly that common regularly. I got swept by Never Ending Nightmare Arceus-Ghost once. Surprised that isn't more common as I only ever saw one. I ran into genesect about 5 or 6 times total and it only put in work once, still didn't have enough trouble from it to lose any game. It's S rank isn't it? There were about 5 battles where my Sableyenite Suicune straight up walled an entire team without support. I also made my own team after I got reqs and started to use it on another account and it is currently 32 wins and 2 losses and I'm 5th on the suspect ladder (2812 COIL) on that account. View attachment 81221
^ another proof of reqs

My comments from playing around in this suspect test are that regardless of whether or not Pheromosa is unhealthy for the metagame, there are probably several other things that are unhealthy for the metagame as well because it was just way too easy for someone with not metagame experience to get reqs. I legit threw a team together that looked like it made sense and I went 32 wins and 2 losses with it. I think that says something for the metagame in some regard to my above comments. There's more than just pheromosa that's a problem.
As others have pointed out, reqs were p low for this suspect, it only took ~40-45 games for most people to attain them. Also to be fair there are some really good sample teams, and low ladder is fairly large and really bad (it IS a popular OM, and lots of non-competitive players like playing around with their favourite Pokemon, except slightly better).

I also agree that there are more things that need suspects (Genesect, Shaymin-S, potentially Deo-S or Pidgeotite, etc.) but we can only suspect one thing at a time so it's better to get a clearly broken threat (*cough* Pheromosa *cough*) out of the way and see from there what makes the meta unhealthy, without Pheromosa drawing attention away from other broken mons.

Hello. Hopefully the attached proof will suffice, sorry I'm not named the same on PS! as my forum name.



I believe this is my first suspect test and it's with a meta I'm quite familiar with, it's basically all I ladder on nowadays. Anyways, I am choosing to vote DO NOT BAN for this one. I really don't have much of a complicated reason for this. My team which is admittedly not that great has had literally no problems with Pheromosa at all, physical or special. The reason for this is that literally any priority (with Golisopod, Weavile, and a bunch of Pinisirite Extremespeed users, it's certainly not uncommon) kills it easily. Even Weavile two shots it with Fake Out and Feint most of the time in my experience. Though to be frank, the suspect test has opened my eyes to how broken Deoxys-Speed @ Pidgeotite is, maybe a suspect test for that ought to be in order next?

Now I have a question if you folks don't mind, if I play some more MNM between now and the 26th, and lose my COIL (let's hope that doesn't happen but it might), will I lose my vote?
No, you won't lose your vote as you have given proof that you have achieved the requirements.