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M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #5: Marshadow

Discussion in 'OM Archives' started by Chloe., Aug 30, 2017.

  1. Chloe.

    Chloe.
    is a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

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    The Mix and Mega Council has decided that we will be conducting our fifth suspect test on Marshadow.

    Marshadow has always been a potent threat since its introduction into the metagame; however, due to the prevalence and utility of multiple Sablenite walls and Support Arceus formes it has appeared to have been kept somewhat in check. These checks however, usually completely kill momentum, and allow other offensive Pokemon to come in on them and capitalise. Additionally, its power and virtually perfect STAB combination can make it quite overcentralising, breaking past the majority of the entire metagame. This in tandem with its myriad of other great qualities can make Marshadow's inclusion in the metagame questionable. It is an undeniable fact that Marshadow is a controversial issue within the Gen 7 Mix and Mega metagame. There's no better way to handle this than to let the community decide via a suspect test, and hence we are holding one.

    Note: The suspect test is solely for Marshadow's ability to hold Mega Stones.

    COIL: 2900
    B: 10.5

    How many battles you'll need to get voting reqs:
    Code:
    GXE N
    100 23
    95 27
    90 34
    85 46
    80 74
    75 215
    
    To determine the amount of games you'll need to play to obtain requirements, input your GXE into Google Calculator using the equation "N=10.5/log2(40*GXE/2900)".
    Alternatively you can input your GXE into this.

    Where do I post?
    Post your suspect requirements proof in this thread, along with your vote. Ban, No Ban, or Abstain in bold so it makes it easier to tell what your vote is when counting.
    You do not require a specific username, any alt may be used, as long as you provide a screenshot of requirements and proof that the alt is yours.

    You may also discuss the current suspect test within this thread, as the thread is not limited to posting reqs.

    The suspect test will last for two weeks, ending on September 14th.
    60% Ban Majority required to Ban Marshadow from holding Mega Stones.


    In summary:
    • We're suspecting Marshadow from holding Mega Stones.
    • The COIL requirement is 2900, the B value is 10.5.
    • Marshadow will be banned from holding Mega Stones during the suspect testing process.
    • Post requirements proof on thread with vote in bold so it's easier to count.
    • Suspect will end on September 14th.
    • 60% ban vote required to ban.
    Thank you The Immortal :D!
  2. Highlord

    Highlord

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    Apparently I'm retarded and can't post an image, but I got it.
    BAN
  3. Chazm

    Chazm

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    e: better reqs here, alt is 'free lunala'
    Show Hide


    Took me a hell of a long while to get back into the swing of things, but I think I've made a great team to ladder the rest of the way. I'll probably try again for less battles to get COIL requirements - this run around was shit GXE wise.
    long ass post if you want to hear my reasoning (open)

    Marshadow has been a bit of a controversial Pokemon to suspect in my eyes – with the amount of offensive pressure it can put on offense, simply invalidating hyper offense from existing without atespeed is just worrying. On hyper offense, as soon as it is able to get a switch-in it can 2HKO most members of the team that aren’t named Zygarde. Unfortunately, this means that teams have to be designed specifically so that Marshadow can never get a switch-in what-so-ever, leaving it potentially weak to other Pokemon that can open up a gap simply between two Pokemon. This therefore means that a core such as Marshadow + Kyogre-Primal is able to break through teams fairly easily, with a teammate taking heavy damage from Origin Pulse. Fortunately for Groudon-Primal, it can quite reliably take on this core, as is the nature of Ubers-based metas. However, HO has learned to check it, but unfortunately for HO, it cannot do this now due to too many overcentralizing threats breaking HO completely, alongside Marshadow getting a switch-in to the majority of Pokemon on the enemy team. This overcentralization leads to very few archetypes being viable – balanced archetypes, which can have a degree of offense and defense to them.

    However, this sort of attitude leaves Marshadow with a rather large problem – unlike in Ubers, where it can use its Z-move to break through conventional checks, in Mix and Mega, it doesn’t often run the Z-move, due to it much preferring the speed boost and overall attack bonus from its two main stones, Metagrossite and Lucarionite. As well as this, it also has huge problems with Fairy-types – with the introduction of Zygarde, Marshadow has been effectively tamed, only being able to 2HKO it if it hasn’t Mega Evolved. However, this can be exploited by Marshadow on Hyper Offense – this causes 50/50s with the opposing Marshadow & Zygarde, causing hyper offense games to be heavily based on speed ties and predictions – whilst one is a competitive aspect, the other is a luck-based game, leading HO at a disadvantage.

    We’ve tested the matchup versus Hyper Offense, and have concluded that it is fairly ruthless for HO to face Marshadow, effectively narrowing a lot of teams down to just a few viable Pokemon that Marshadow has left in its wake, heavily weighing in favour of a ban. However, versus Bulky Offense and Balance, another story is told. Whilst Bulky Offense teams usually don’t have the ability to keep pressure with a complete defensive core, they usually opt to run support Arceus sets. This influx of supportceus is part due to Zygarde, and Arceus-Fairy just so happens to roll these checks into one, being very difficult for Marshadow to break. This is what keeps Bulky Offense in the game – by the influx of Arceus support forms simply for Marshadow (and the evident decline of Arceus-Ghost, the most common wall to Terrakion, which also can double as a sweeper). With that, I must mention a summary of Marshadow’s impact on the tier, to see just how large it is if it does get banned.

    With that, let’s get started on how many Pokemon this monstrosity has either kicked out of existence or hurt severely. Weavile has been hurt a lot by the introduction of Marshadow – however, this is mainly through competition for a revenge killing Pokemon, and does not show how Marshadow has severely harmed other Pokemon from simply being used. Kartana has been screwed out of its sweeping role – as other Marshadow can now steal its boosts if it isn’t carrying the rare Diancite, which… hell, even then, the opposing Marshadow could have a Diancite stone and screw you over anyway. As such, it has seen very minor usage in a Marshadow based meta, and therefore cannot thrive as it used to. Terrakion is – again, nerfed out of competition for a slot. I’d free the Substitute + Swords Dance variant, but I’ll probably get to you in another essay about how I’ve made a switch of stone which renders Substitute very situational.

    Cresselia, one of the mons to narrowly escape a suspect, has also been hit very hard. Now, the majority of teams carry coverage that is very difficult for your Sablenite user to wall – and this forces dependence on a supportceus forme to glue the team together. Unfortunately, yet again, the only consistent check to Marshadow is Arceus-Fairy. You can see where I’m going with the idea of overcentralization, right? Speaking of which, other Arceus forms have been in fierce competition over Fairy – although, to be fair, this is partly due to the effects of Zygarde being effectively countered by it, if it does not run a questionably viable set.

    With that, there is also a massive decline of offensive Arceus forms – once at the top of the game, forms like Arceus-Ghost and Arceus-Normal are screwed out of their typing and – whilst disregarding the stone, they still are checked and countered respectively by it, the very fact that Marshadow has now obtained over 50% usage simply boils the usability of the forms, and this heavily impairs teambuilding, as a large portion of Ubers teams are composed of offensive Arceus forms.

    Not only this, but it’s a blanket check to the majority of lower tier threats that would have a niche otherwise. It’s polarizing the meta this way, and it’s very difficult to cope with.

    But, you may ask – isn’t this exactly what Groudon-Primal does? Isn’t this exactly what the best mon in Ubers does here?

    The correct answer is that Groudon-Primal has straight up counters, and, whilst its very prevalent in this meta, isn’t a blanket check to the majority of threats that could come up. What Groudon-Primal lacks compared to Marshadow however, is speed. A threat like Lucarionite Garchomp could potentially OHKO Groudon-Primal, only fearing a roll + burn from the defensive variant, but then a Marshadow can come in revealing one of two incredibly flexible moves and KO you back with Ice Punch.

    If you’re pedantic about that sentence, here are some damn calcs for you.

    252 Atk Adaptability Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 344-408 (85.3 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

    252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 396-468 (110.6 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Garchomp can also OHKO back (if it chooses to run Outrage)

    252 Atk Adaptability Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 314-370 (97.8 - 115.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (vs a Metagrossite variant.)

    However… what matters most here is personal opinion.

    My experiences of the tier without Marshadow have actually been quite relaxing – no longer do you fear your entire team being 2HKO’d on switchin just because you decided to pick something rather uncommon. It is no longer difficult for various teams to thrive, and other Pokemon hidden in the dirt like Lunala can now be used very effectively. The very fact is, I found it polarizing to check, due to it leaving only a handful of mons viable, and too overwhelming for my teams to deal with, despite having Arceus-Fairy on every damn one.

    It’s been a very difficult one… but I’ll be happy to see Marshadow gone. Because of its overcentralization and overall killing of creativity throughout the tier, it has caused teams many problems and has unfortunately set little variation in terms of Pokemon usable.


    So… to finish this off, I say I vote BAN.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  4. Vhayle

    Vhayle

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    I'm voting NO BAN
  5. DNNP

    DNNP

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    MarshadowVoteReqs.png

    My Vote: BAN
    TylerWithNumbers, ace 434 and Laxpras like this.
  6. clubtropper

    clubtropper

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    My Vote: Ban

    If you were to ask me before the suspect, I probably would've voted no ban, but the meta is so much better without it. Too over-centralizing, not enough switch-ins, and of course the infamous marshadow vs marshadow speed tie that every tier with marshadow has.
  7. Laxpras

    Laxpras You don't want zero problems big fella

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    Obviously BAN. There is no logical reason for this to have ever been allowed in the first place. Perfect STABs, STAB priority, broken move, etc etc. Ban DeoS next instead of cherry picking Ubers to allow thx.
  8. thesecondbest

    thesecondbest Just Kidding I'm First

    Joined:
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    Ban
    Marshadow isn't broken per se, but it's unhealthy and overcentralizes the tier. There's a lot more variety without it.
    Also there's no reason not to "cherry pick Ubers", nobody gives a shit that aegi/ or lando-i are legal, and genesect is good but not broken. just ban the broken ones.

    Attached Files:

  9. Stall is coming

    Stall is coming

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    When we look the major set of Marshadow :

    Marshadow @ Lucarionite
    Ability: Adaptability
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Bulk Up
    - Spectral Thief
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Close Combat

    We can see the lack of HardCheck to this pokemon.

    Let's make some calcs:

    Primo-Groudon:
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Groudon: 180-214 (44.6 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Zapdos@Sablenite:
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Zapdos: 136-160 (35.4 - 41.6%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Blissey@Sablenite:
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 600-708 (84 - 99.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Arceus-Ground:
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 196-232 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Yveltal:
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 228-270 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Cresselia@Sablenite:
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Cresselia: 248-296 (55.9 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Magearna@Sablenite:
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Skarmory@BlueOrb:
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 174-206 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Arceus-Water:
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Water: 196-232 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Mandibuzz@Sablenite:
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 162-192 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Ho-Oh:
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 250-296 (60.2 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Arceus/Arceus-Dark/Arceus-Ghost/Arceus-Rock/Arceus-Steel: All OHKO

    Mantine@Slowbronite:
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Mantine: 146-172 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Mew@Sablenite:
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 324-384 (80.1 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Giratina:
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 292-348 (58 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    And against Zygarde-Complete, he can easily set-up and outsweep him thanks to Spectral Thief.

    Marshadow has only one HardCheck: Arceus-Fairy. That's not enough.

    And for revengekill him, we need to use an Ate-Speeder, Ditto or Marshadow himself ...

    Mega-Marshadow is too strong for this metagame and for me, he deserves the ban.

    I'm voting BAN.

    Attached Files:

  10. M'joe'ra

    M'joe'ra

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    Voting BAN.

    Edit, shoutout to webs z splash Solgaleo for being absolute flames
  11. Mark_K

    Mark_K

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    Never had I ever thought the meta would be so much better and calm as it is without Marshadow. It actually feels good to play now.
    Voting BAN

    Also, Stall is coming, you totally forgot Hippo

    Unleash the Ubers!
    TylerWithNumbers likes this.
  12. Stall is coming

    Stall is coming

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    I just follow the Viability Rankings.
    Mega-Marshadow has other gimmick counters like:

    * Sablenite Hippo : I admit he's viable in this tier

    *Aggronite Buzzlord :
    (Items | | Metagrossite 48.262% | | Sablenite 30.466% | | Pidgeotite 3.972% | | Venusaurite 3.225% | | Aerodactylite 2.875% | | Blue Orb 2.036% | | Red Orb 1.536% | | Lucarionite 1.106% | | Charizardite X 0.983% | | Steelixite 0.951% | | Other 4.589%). I don't see Aggronite :(

    *Slowbronite Mandibuzz :
    (Items | | Sablenite 83.487% | | Venusaurite 15.589% | | Other 0.924%). Nope again.

    For counter Marshadow, we need to investigate in the whole pokedex to find 3 or 4 pokemon for counter a simple pokemon. It's not possible.
  13. Chazm

    Chazm

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    fyi this was in the July usage statistics where Aggronite wasn't released yet p sure (it's also Buzzwole, not Buzzlord, you're getting that mixed up with Guzzlord)
    you also have most variants of Toxapex as a check, bar the uncommon Gyaradosite variant
    +1 252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 160-190 (52.6 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - note that Toxapex must Toxic the opposing Marshadow before it can stall it out

    as for your checks, Buzzwole gets 1v1'd by Bulk Up + Substitute Marshadow, Sablenite Hippo takes more than half damage from Close Combat (whilst phazing it out, potentially allowing it to recover):
    +1 252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 226-268 (53.8 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    and Arceus-Fairy can be lured by a Bulk Up + Poison Jab set, whilst rather uncommon, can screw you over, and especially with Zygarde on the opposing team, can take you down quite easily if you don't have backup for both mons
    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 222-262 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 40 HP / 4 SpD Marshadow: 278-330 (83.9 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    this simply proves a point that Marshadow is too overcentralizing because of its lacking switchins.
  14. Quantum Tesseract

    Quantum Tesseract Imasugu
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    upload_2017-9-5_15-30-7.png
    It's not the perfect run I was hoping for when I made the fresh alt, but it's the best run so far so I'll take it. Voting Ban.
    TylerWithNumbers likes this.
  15. gmfc

    gmfc

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    Vote: BAN

    Reasoning: I think like most of the previous bans, this is another case of "too strong too fast" and the fact that he doesn't need coverage to rip through teams is a enough to put him over the edge. Sure, there are mons that can check Marshadow, but a large majority of them are niche and I don't see them being viable in a post-marsh meta. Even -atespeed spam isn't enough to stop him, since he's relatively easy to build around; coupled with the fact that Tapu Lele exists, and marsh suddenly becomes a threat capable of 2hkoing most of the meta. So, while whether or not he's broken is up for debate, he's undoubtedly overcentralizing and unhealthy for the meta, which is why(as much as it pains me) I'm voting for Marshadow to be banned.

    [​IMG]
    TylerWithNumbers likes this.
  16. RNGIsFatal

    RNGIsFatal

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    upload_2017-9-7_12-45-5.png

    Entire Screen (open)

    upload_2017-9-7_12-45-33.png


    Voting ban.
    Not gonna explain why, because seeing how Laxpras and many people have same verdict on Marshadow's existence on current MnM metagame, I do not see necessity to say something that will be redundant.

    Ditto should kill itself
    gmfc, Silver_Lucario42 and tegrof19 like this.
  17. Arctic Weavile

    Arctic Weavile

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    I'm going to be voting NO BAN. Marshadow is definitely an amazing mon, there's absolutely no doubt about that. However, I don't think Marshadow is broken by any means, and I think it offers something to the tier few other mons can.

    model.gif

    Sablenite Blissey is a very annoying mon to face, using Toxic stall with Seismic toss to take down several top tier threats. It is only really beat by set up mons, which are easy to play around with faster things for Tail Glow Xurk, and Golisopod for double dance Groudon. Even Nasty Plot Psyshock Azelf has some trouble beating it.

    +2 252 SpA Azelf Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 336-396 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

    This is coming from Diancite Azelf, which I haven't seen on the ladder yet, not to mention Azelf is by no means a common mon. However, Marshadow offers us a reliable way to beat Blissey. Being ghost type, it is immune to Seismic Toss, something no other fighting type(other than Lopunnite Dhelmise or something of that nature, which let's be honest no one is running) can say they have. When used in combination with a steel type like Magearna, which can Volt Switch out on the Seismic Toss into Marshadow and get it a free Bulk Up or Close Combat, allowing it to sweep late game.

    model-1.gif
    Metagrossite Kartana also loses a check, which doesn't have too much of an impact, but Matagrossite Kartana is very fast and a huge threat, with Marshadow being able to outspeed it and easily OHKO.

    252 Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 284-336 (109.6 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    However, Marshadow has several common counters in the tier. There are some common tier threats that beat it, as well as some more niche sets I came up with myself.

    model-2.gif model-3.gif model-4.gif

    So obviously, we'll start with the top tier threats. Zapdos, Mandibuzz, and ofc Arceus Fairy are all able to beat Marshadow 1v1. They all have access to recovery, meaning they can just Roost/Recover the hits from Marshadow off.

    Sablenite Mandibuzz vs. Metagrossite Marshadow
    252+ Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-180 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 175-207 (54.5 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 262-310 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(-1 because of CC)

    Sablenite Mandibuzz vs. Lucarionite Marshadow
    252+ Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 178-210 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 240-283 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (You get the idea for the +1 and -1 calcs for CC/Foul Play)

    Let's look at Zapdos.

    Venusaurite Zapdos vs. Metagrossite Marshadow
    252+ Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 133-157 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 126-148 (39.2 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Venusaurite Zapdos vs. Lucarionite Marshadow
    252+ Atk Adaptability Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 156-184 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 148-175 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO

    And of course, Arceus Fairy.

    Arceus Fairy vs. Metagrossite Marshadow
    252+ Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 136-162 (30.6 - 36.4%) -- 58.2% chance to 3HKO
    252+ Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 164-194 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 278-330 (86.6 - 102.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

    Arceus Fairy vs. Lucarionite Marshadow
    252+ Atk Adaptability Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 160-190 (36 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 144-170 (32.4 - 38.2%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO
    0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 330-390 (102.8 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    You also need to keep in mind all of these cal are done from Adamant Marshadow. No one runs that. Everyone is running Jolly to outspeed other Marshadows, Kartanas, etc. So you can see this is doing less to these mons, meaning they can roost/recover up on it and kill it 1v1 even easier.

    model-1.gif model.gif

    Magearna and Pdon can check Marshadow and OHKO it without being able to be OHKOd in return.

    252+ Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 153-180 (42.1 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(Metagrossite)
    0 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 372-440 (115.8 - 137%) -- guaranteed OHKO(Metagrossite)
    252+ Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 178-210 (49 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO(Lucarionite)
    0 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 440-518 (137 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO(Lucarionite)

    252+ Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 192-226 (47.6 - 56%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO(Metagrossite)
    252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow in Harsh Sunshine: 259-306 (80.6 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Metagrossite, needs some chip)
    252+ Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 224-264 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Lucarionite)
    252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow in Harsh Sunshine: 262-310 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Lucarionite, needs some chip)

    On top of these common top tier counters to Marshadow, I have some of my own to talk about that aren't used right now but can still beat it 1v1.

    model-1.gif model-3.gif model-5.gif

    These two mons get Wish, and are super effective vs. Marshadow. However, their defense is lackluster. That's where Slowbronite comes into play.

    Slowbronite Florges vs. Metagrossite Marshadow
    252+ Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 146-174 (40.6 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 124-147 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 254-302 (79.1 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Slowbronite Florges vs. Lucarionite Marshadow
    252+ Atk Adaptability Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 146-172 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 130-154 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 306-360 (95.3 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

    Marshadow does even less damage to Sylveon and Aromatisse due to them having a higher HP and Defense stat. They're damage output is:
    0 SpA Sylveon Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 254-300 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Metagrossite)
    0 SpA Sylveon Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 300-354 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO(Lucarionite)
    0 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 236-278 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Metagrossite)
    0 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 278-330 (86.6 - 102.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

    model.gif model-4.gif model-2.gif

    Oh, what the hell am I talking about? All 3 of these are weak to Close Combat. Well my friends, not with the Audinite Mega Stone! Lickilicky and Umbreon both get Wish(as well as Umbreon getting Moonlight) so they have recovery, while Heatran doesn't but I've seen it before. These are not the only Pokemon that when given the Audinite can beat Marshadow. Lots of mons can, pretty much anything bulky that has recovery and isn't weak to Ghost. I can see some mons working with the Altarianite because of Pixilate, but Audinite gives more bulk.

    252+ Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lickilicky: 169-199 (39.9 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(Metagrossite)
    252+ Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lickilicky: 150-178 (35.4 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(Metagrossite)
    252+ Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lickilicky: 196-232 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO(Lucarionite)
    252+ Atk Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Lickilicky: 132-156 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- 70.1% chance to 3HKO(Lucarionite)

    Lickilicky gets some coverage moves to hit Marshadow, but mainly the wish stall lets it beat Marshadow. Using Toxic or Shadow Ball/Zen Headbutt it can beat it.

    252+ Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 118-141 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- 62.7% chance to 3HKO(Metagrossite)
    252+ Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 142-168 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(Metagrossite)
    0 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 156-184 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO(Metagrossite)
    252+ Atk Adaptability Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 138-164 (35.8 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(Lucarionite)
    252+ Atk Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 124-146 (32.2 - 37.9%) -- 92.6% chance to 3HKO(Lucarionite)
    0 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 184-217 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Lucarionite)

    So Heatran can beat it assuming it hits 2 fire blasts which wouldn't happen with my luck :/ but it still beats it.

    252+ Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 156-184 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(Metagrossite)
    252+ Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 138-164 (35.1 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(Metagrossite)
    0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 175-207 (54.5 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Metagrossite)
    252+ Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 180-214 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO(Lucarionite)
    252+ Atk Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 122-144 (31 - 36.6%) -- 61.7% chance to 3HKO(Lucarionite)
    0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 240-283 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Lucarionite)

    So as you can see, Marshadow has counters. You just have to look for them. Which is why I'm voting NO BAN.

    Screen Shot 2017-09-07 at 3.38.57 PM.png

    Attached Files:

    RNGIsFatal, david0895 and Showan like this.
  18. Quantum Tesseract

    Quantum Tesseract Imasugu
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,805
    I'm glad to see some reasoning in a suspect thread, especially considering even I really havent shown any, but there are problems with this post:
    Blissey runs 252+ def, 252 spd. The full HP set isn't relevant in Mix and Mega.
    While Mandibuzz does indeed 1v1, that's not particularly relevant for offensive mons against defensive mons. What is important is switching in, and mandibuzz cannot do that, even without stealth rocks, as it must roost on +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 207-244 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO and foul play on bulk up. With Stealth Rocks, it doesnt take any prediction from the marshadow at all.

    Marshadow can run 40 HP specifically for this, and even otherwise its not guarenteed as you can see. Obviously Arceus-Fairy is decently reliable as they have to BU on the switch and then not get rolled+itll be in a solid rk position anyway (ntm that marsh cant take any damage, evn rocks), but even that's not absolute.

    Zapdos isn't an answer by itself, either, as bulk up will still win. It has to volt switch to an RKer to win.
    As your calcs show, Pdon doesn't actually beat Lucarionite 1v1; spectral to CC wins. It does prevent a marshadow sweep if you have any other soft checks, but unless you run physdef or egt a lava plume burn its not a win in a 1v1 situation. It will almost always beat Metagrossite, though, so that's fair.
    Once again, it's true that these mons beat Marshadow ( with the exception of Lickilicky, as Bu Marsh beats that), but they aren't good, and and only postmega florges switches in - and even then it has to win a 50-50 every time between wishing and moonblasting. You might wonder, here or above, why this matters, but if you don't have a switch in every time you use a mon that Marshadow beats, it can pick up a free ko. Say you need to use your Xurkitree to beat a balance - without a marshadow switchin, Marshadow can come in freely on Tail Glow, Grass knot, or whenever you ko a mon and remove a mon from your team -either the xurkitree you need to win, or one of the defensive pokemon you've been thinking would check marshadow. About the only reliable defensive answers are pokemon you would never use otherwise, such as your Florges, or extremely passive, such as Toxapex. Even a well prepared team won't costlessly remove Marshadow, either, unless it's running double espeed quadruple scarf, or somethign dumb like that, so even in those matchups Marshadow can be easily paired with another sweeper such as Swords Dance Primal Groudon to weaken defensive walls.

    Furthermore, every single Marshadow answer bar Zapdos can be trapped by MGar and/or Goth (I beleive Highlord has some replays showing goth's effectiveness, or if you doubt you could try it yourself), so it's not like you can't avoid them that way either.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
  19. Chazm

    Chazm

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2017
    Messages:
    55
    You do have an in depth post about your thoughts, but there are a few errors I'd like to point out that can be common in an MnM metagame:
    Arceus-Fairy is a fairly good counter. However, whilst very niche, and only really for Arceus-Fairy itself, Marshadow can run a Poison Jab lure set, which if Marshadow Bulk Ups on your switchin, and is Metagrossite, can take a hit and 2HKO back with Poison Jab:
    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 224-264 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 278-330 (83.9 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 278-330 (83.9 - 99.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (this does make it a fairly dangerous lure, however.)
    As is shown here, the spread is a bit unconventional. However, it is specifically for Arceus-Fairy, such so that Marshadow can lure it and take it down with Poison Jab. This opens up a sweep for another teammate such as Altarianite Zygarde.
    Mandibuzz is also 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock damage:
    252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 138-163 (32.6 - 38.5%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock - whilst very difficult for Marshadow to open, it can break Mandibuzz. However, it's very unlikely that Mandibuzz will be at full health due to needing to check other physical attackers, and even then - the meta is not shown to be healthy if you need an answer specifically waiting in the back for a Pokemon.
    Versus Lucarionite is where it falls, however:
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 162-192 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Zapdos is also 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock damage, if the variant you are up against is a Lucarionite variant. Here I will admit your reasoning is fine, as Marshadow often does not run Ice Punch unless it is willing to lure in a Zygarde:
    252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 130-154 (33.9 - 40.2%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock - even then, it is still fairly difficult for Marshadow to break it.
    Zapdos, however, lacks the capability to 2HKO it, allowing Marshadow to set up against it. However, this is fairly difficult with a Volt Switch variant - but do watch out as you will most likely be taking enough damage if Stealth Rocks get up to be 2HKO'd on the switchin.
    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 174-205 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO
    0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 109-130 (32.9 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    I'd also like to point out some of the problems with your sets - Magearna hardly ever runs maximum Defense, and is a poor check to Marshadow as it can be worn down easily.
    Groudon can't switch in, as your calcs show. This is a massive problem against Marshadow - if anything ever switches in and doesn't have priority, it dies. The only two mons capable of taking a hit, as you have shown, are Arceus-Fairy and Zapdos. Physically defensive Toxapex may also take a +1 Spectral Thief from the Metagrossite variant, but it needs to Toxic Marshadow first before it can properly counter it.

    On the contrary, your later checks shown are incredibly niche and hard to fit on a team compared to other options. Their stones are also very specific and often non-optimal choices, for example - Heatran may prefer Latiasite or Ampharosite for different roles, such as a ground check or a stallbreaker, which is your most viable option. Speaking of which, all three fairies are lured and taken down by the very same Poison Jab set that takes down Arceus-Fairy:
    252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Florges: 146-174 (40.5 - 48.3%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sylveon: 224-264 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sylveon: 150-178 (38 - 45.1%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 196-232 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock - Aromatisse is probably the best check shown here, however, it still loses to the Poison Jab set - however, it can get lucky and live two. However, it must constantly try to heal itself up with Wish, so I suggest using Toxic vs Marshadow if you want this as your check. Speaking of which - Poison Jab does have that 30% chance to poison, making it difficult to continue walling Marshadow.

    Heatran, yet again, dies to Stealth Rocks (very slightly), and risks getting OHKO'd if it hasn't been Mega Evolved.
    252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 128-152 (33.1 - 39.3%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Whilst both Arceus-Fairy and Heatran can use Will-o-wisp to catch out Marshadow, they're very difficult to fit onto Arceus-Fairy's movepool, and Heatran will either get poisoned or will need significant support to continue walling Marshadow.
    Umbreon loses to Metagrossite if it Bulks Up on the switchin:
    +1 0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 238-282 (71.9 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Lickylicky is by no means a viable choice in the metagame, but yet again, it loses to Bulk Up on the switchin.
    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lickilicky: 229-270 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Now, I'm not trying to change your vote, I'm fine with you voting No Ban - it's just I'd like to re-evaluate your calculations and see it from another perspective.
  20. Arctic Weavile

    Arctic Weavile

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    4
    I understand rocks can be a pain to deal with, but there are definitely ways to work around it. Mandibuzz can run Audinite(Not saying it should, just that it can) which gets rid of the flying typing and keeps it at just a little less bulk. For rockers, Sablenite is out and Diancite has just been released, both giving access to Magic Bounce. So unless the opponent is using rocks on the Gyaradosite/Ampaharosite mons(which I admit are the most common hazard setters) you can bounce them back. The Bulk Up Set is a bit problematic, but there are definitely ways to work around it. I agree it really stops a lot of mons from full countering it, but they can still check it.

    Here's something else that opens up new possibilities. With the introduction of Diancite, several Pokemon gain the potential to outspeed Marshadow. Any mon over 104 base speed can, and these include threats like Keldeo, Terrakion, Kartana, the Latis, Torn I/T, Alakazam, Dugtrio, and Talonflame. All these mons have the power to now check Marshadow.

    Now you may say Marshadow can run Diancite of its own to outspeed them. This puts it at 185 attack and 185 speed. That sounds broken, eh? However, it's ability is lackluster, and here's the compared damage output.

    252 Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 2156-2538 (331.1 - 389.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO(Diancite)
    252 Atk Adaptability Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 2568-3024 (394.4 - 464.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO(Lucarionite)
    252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 2204-2594 (338.5 - 398.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO(Metagrossite)

    So it has less damage output then both other viable stones on it. On top of this, Marshadow sacrifices a lot of bulk in the exchange, meaning it's an easy OHKO for a lot of things as opposed to being able to tank them before due to it's pretty solid bulk.

    So with the introduction of Diancite, a whole new realm of checks has opened up. Yes, Shadow Sneak could be an issue for some of them(Latis, Mismagius, anything weak to ghost) but anything with decent bulk before the mega evolution(Terrakion, Keldeo, Kartana) will be able to live no problem and fore off a huge hit.
  21. Emperor2

    Emperor2

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Messages:
    10
    Screenshot_2017-09-08-20-21-26-327.jpeg
    Alt: Emperor

    Vote:- BAN
  22. InfinitySlayer

    InfinitySlayer

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2014
    Messages:
    37
    Not alt but only available username on Showdown : InfinitySlayer8

    Vote : Ban

    Reasoning: Most of the points above say it well enough, but in summary and my experience: Marshadow is extremely versatile with a very adaptable offense game, and while any and every set be it Lucarionite, Metagrossite or even Diancite, has its revenge killers it is over centralising in its sheer presence. I have seen some new interesting sets rising up in its absence. More of that and less of me having to carry dual Espeed Mons please IMG_7781.PNG
  23. Chloe.

    Chloe.
    is a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
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    794
    I will be closing the thread as soon as possible, as the result has already clearly been decided. When it hits 12:01AM on the deadline in Nuku'alofa, Tonga (21 and a half hours from now), I will end the suspect.

    Thank you all for your participation!
  24. Zephyr Dragon Lord

    Zephyr Dragon Lord

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2016
    Messages:
    477
    I suppose that my vote won't really matter here, so I'll probably end up not getting there in the suspect. Still a ton of fun, and managed to get some good and prime data in. Glad that Marshadow's leaving, too. That makes me satisfied.
    RNGIsFatal likes this.
  25. InfernapeTropius11

    InfernapeTropius11 get on my level

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    1,673
    terrible record but hax is a bitch, even accounting for the fact that I kept trying new things I shouldn't have had more than 2-3 losses smh https://m.imgur.com/bbYuRvb?r
    %sedertz: vote the opposite
    %sedertz: of qt
    voting do not ban
    b4 u nerds try to convince me otherwise it literally doesn't matter so calm your tits
    RNGIsFatal likes this.

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