M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #6: Shadow Tag

Chloe

;w;
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#1

The Mix and Mega Council has decided that we will be conducting our first suspect test of USUM on Shadow Tag.

Shadow Tag is considered by many as an uncompetitive ability due to disabling one of the core components of Pokémon battling, switching. While this alone isn't enough to justify a lack of competitiveness, it's important to consider how it alone can overwhelm defensive Pokémon such as Blissey, Toxapex and support Arceus formes with little to no effort. This occurring while virtually disallowing any reliable counter measures is astounding. Initially, we had wanted to wait and see if Ubers were going to hold a suspect test (as Mix and Mega is Ubers-based); however, due to their rapid pace we have decided to go ahead and suspect test this ourselves.

It's quite clear that the main culprit here is Gothitelle, although it is important to realise that Eviolite Gothorita can almost pull off the exact same job. Gengarite Gengar is also included in this as it does retain the ability, even if it lacks the presence the aforementioned user does. Shadow Tag as a whole should be considered during this suspect test. Don't prioritise either user over the ability of Shadow Tag.

In short: The suspect test is for the ability Shadow Tag and the item Gengarite, even on Gengar.

Examples of Shadow Tag in action:
Replay 1
Replay 2
Quantum's excellent post outling Shadow Tag << especially because I suck at explaining things.



COIL: 2750
B: 10.5
Game Limit: 50

How many battles you'll need to get voting reqs:
Code:
GXE N
100 19
95 23
90 27
85 34
80 48
To determine the amount of games you'll need to play to obtain requirements, input your GXE into Google Calculator using the equation "N=10.5/log2(40*GXE/2750)".
Alternatively you can input your GXE into this.

I will also be holding a suspect tournament in the OM room, where the winner and runner-up get voting reqs without having to ladder. I will announce the date of this later into the suspect test.

Where do I post?
Post your suspect requirements proof in this thread, along with your vote. Ban, No Ban, or Abstain in bold so it makes it easier to tell what your vote is when counting.
You do not require a specific username, any alt may be used, as long as you provide a screenshot of requirements and proof that the alt is yours.

You may also discuss the current suspect test within this thread, as the thread is not limited to posting reqs.

The suspect test will last for two weeks, ending on December 21st.
60% Ban Majority required to Ban Shadow Tag outright.


In summary:
  • We're suspecting Shadow Tag.
  • The COIL requirement is 2750, the B value is 10.5, the game limit is 50.
  • Shadow Tag + Gengarite Gengar will be banned during the suspect process.
  • Post requirements proof on thread with vote in bold so it's easier to count.
  • Suspect will end on December 21st.
  • 60% ban vote required to ban.
Thank you The Immortal :D!
 

Chloe

;w;
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#2
Just to clarify, since I did add it after posting the thread. There will be a game limit of 50 to combat the fact that reqs are quite easy this time. Otherwise anyone could get reqs if they just spammed games which isn't ideal.

Sorry for any inconveniences that may arise because of this.
 
#4


Voting BAN, most of my explanations have been made more concise with Chloe's post anyway and I generally agree with most of what has been said about the pro-ban arguments.

In other news, suspect laddering will resume as normal.
 
#5
upload_2017-12-10_1-56-45.png

Say that Gothitelle is broken among the Pidgeotite Deoxys, Primo-Groudon or the bulkiest pokemon in all generations aka Sablenite Blissey can be weird, but it's true.
Of course, 80% of the metagame 2HKO Gothitelle and he can do nothing against them.
He can trap only a minority of pokemon.
We can list them ( There is a bijection between his cardinal and, sorry for the joke ^^ ):
*Blissey
*support Arceus
*Skarmory
*Toxapex

In fact, he breaks nearly every staller without VoltTurn.
Against a Hard-Stall, it's simple, Gothitelle does a 6/0 without any skills.
Against a Balance team, Gothitelle traps the arceus and after this the adversary team hasn't hazard remover. Moreover, if the opponent uses a staller who block one of my sweeper, then Gothitelle traps him. It's easy and unstoppable.
Against a HO without Arceus as Defogger (like Quantum Tesseract's Choice Scarf Xerneas Offense in sample teams), Gothitelle is useless.

So, to counter Gothitelle, we need to build HO everytime. It's a bit restrictive. Gothitelle is too easy to use and has no answer.

Finally, when I speak about Gothitelle, I of course speak about Shadow Tag because without this, Gothitelle is just PU.
I'm voting BAN
 
#6


No Ban

edit: here are some replays with stag since there doesn't seem to be too many of them
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-615970014
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-615961445
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-615706565
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-615705261
edit 2: you guys forgot to ban gengarite gengar from the suspect ladder

edit 3: reasoning!

Section 1: The Nature of Shadow Tag
Shadow Tag is only powerful in conjunction with a Pokemon's other capabilities; therefore, Shadow Tag is not inherently broken.

Example: Shadow Tag + sleep-inducing moves/Encore/Taunt

Shadow Tag alone does not facilitate a ban; combinations of abilities, moves, typing and stats are what determines the effectiveness of a Pokemon

Section 2: Current Combinations of Shadow Tag
As of now, the main users of Shadow Tag are Mega Gengar, the Gothitelle line and Wobbuffet. Here are some examples of combinations with Shadow Tag that define their effectiveness

Mega Gengar:
- Taunt, Disable, Perish Song, Hypnosis
- Base 130 Speed, Base 170 Spatk
- Espeed immunity, Pixispeed resistance
- Powerful Stab Combination (aka fairy killer)

Wobbuffet:
- Self Explanatory

Gothitelle:
- Taunt, Rest, Trick, Confide, Charm, Trick Room, Calm Mind
- High SpDef
- Leftovers

It it difficult to map out how everything synergies together because this is text. A visual explanation of how each characteristic interacts with each other would explain how more specific combinations, like charm + confide + rest, work together, but that would take forever (lol).

Section 3: Impact on the Meta
The final step is to assess the impact of Shadow Tag on the current Meta. Mega Gengar is lackluster in terms of power since its main weapon, taunt is thwarted by the plethora of magic bounce users. Its low defense stats also render it susceptible to even neutral Judgement, not to mention pursuit trappers. The other niche it has is perish song to trap passive threats (including magic bounce users), but this is mostly outclassed by Gothitelle because of longevity

Gothitelle manages trap Support Arceus, Blissey and Toxapex with ease using its combinations discussed above, but it is unfortunately all it can do. Gothitelle is not versatile in any sense and is definitely not comparable to titans like Primal Groudon and Zygarde in that regard. Interestingly, Gothitelle only enables the player to gain an edge over passive teams using Arceus, Blissey, and Toxapex, which also happened to be some of the most popular Pokemon in the current Meta. Gothitelle is an extremely, easy to use anti-meta threat, but that does not facilitate a ban by any means.

There are always going to be Pokemon that counter specific play-styles. Anti-Meta threats only emerge when Meta-game patterns become obvious. Therefore, my final assertion is that this panic about Gothitelle is a sign that the Meta needs to shift its centralization to different Pokemon instead of banning Gothitelle!

Note: I didn't discuss Wob cus nobody uses it LOL also 3:30 am f
 
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OM room

You lost the game
#9
I will also be holding a suspect tournament in the OM room, where the winner and runner-up get voting reqs without having to ladder. I will announce the date of this later into the suspect test.
I'm sorry did I give you permission to do this ????

Anyways, I got reqs bois!
Screen Shot 2017-12-11 at 12.12.31 PM.png


I thought about this a lot, and I'm going to be voting No Ban here.

Now, let's take a look at the three mons that abuse shadow tag; Wobbuffet, Gothitelle & Gengar-Mega

Wobbuffet is basically unusuable in this meta and it doesn't deserve a spot over other mons lmao

Gothitelle is viable, and works a way to pick off stall mons that can't deal with it. However to be used effectively vs mons like blissey, it requires leftovers in a metagame with such a power curve that it's not going to be effective whatsoever vs the more offensive mons, or stallmons such as mandibuzz. Mostly though, it requires a lot of skill to use effectively (hi qt trying to prove a point), and generally isn't broken.

Finally, we have Mega Gengar, best out of the three, but still isn't broken. It's going to trap and kill ur blissey, and PerishTrapping is dumb as hell, but most mons have a way to beat it (blueorb skarm can bbird it). If anything M-Gar is probably the most im on the fence about because of it's perish trapping, but otherwise I don't think it's extremely broken; as it's offenses are kinda lackluster compared to things like terrakion or zyggy.

so yeah that's my thoughts on it, feel free to pick it apart or w/e

 
#10
Untitled.png
Ban

I started playing on PS again about 2 weeks ago, after not playing for 5 months, so I haven't really seen what Gothitelle can do firsthand. I have only played 1 Gothitelle user. It was in a tournament, and the player did not know how to use their team. But from my point of view, theoretically, it seems pretty easy to use, and super effective when it comes to taking out the passive mons in a team. Seems banworthy to me.

My opinions on Mega Gengar are what made me want to participate in this suspect test. Depending on it's moveset, it can be as effective as Gothitelle when it specifically comes to taking out the more passive mons. Where Gothitelle clearly beats Mega Gengar is in it's ability to set up, but Mega Gengar has a lot more versatility. I would not have as much of a problem with Gengarite if you were able to know whether a Gengar is holding that or Pidgeotite before it mega evolves.

Because Pidgeotite Gengar is naturally more expected, when a Gengar comes in, you should usually switch to a mon that can act as a check, or sleep fodder (if Electric Terrain isn't up). But if the Gengar turns out to be Gengarite and uses Substitute, you will lose the mon that was supposed check it, and if your sleep fodder has less than a 130 base speed stat, is not a ghost, doesnt have taunt, and doesn't have a priority move that that can do over 49%, you will lose that mon as well. (Diancite mons aren't accounted for because they would be beat by Shadow Ball/Zap Cannon/Focus Blast from Pidgeotite Gengar.) Substitute and Perish Song are the only necessary moves to have. Other possible moves are Protect, Shadow Ball, Taunt, Sludge Bomb, Pain Split and Destiny Bond. Depending on the moves chosen, you can be able to remove some of the possible sleep fodder mons that could've beaten this perishtrap situation, and make Gengar still be pretty useful against other mons.

There is an example of what I'm trying to say at turn 42: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-446375509 (Outdated match, but I don't save much replays to look back at)
You predict the 50/50 wrong and you get screwed over.

That's all I really wanted to say for now.
 
#13
NO BAN 2.0
1513115109607.png

What goth has done to ubers had a great influence on starting up this suspect, since the 2 metas are quite similar.
if goth wasnt relevant in ubers or even ag, im 100% sure this suspect wouldnt be happening

Also do me a favour and read highlord's post before posting without knowing much, since I know almost none of you faced Goth before due to it being so uncommon :)
 
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#14
Why are all the anti ban arguments so bad ffs, there are legitimate reasons to vote DNB but you wouldnt know it from this thread.
Section 1: The Nature of Shadow Tag
Shadow Tag is only powerful in conjunction with a Pokemon's other capabilities; therefore, Shadow Tag is not inherently broken.

Example: Shadow Tag + sleep-inducing moves/Encore/Taunt

Shadow Tag alone does not facilitate a ban; combinations of abilities, moves, typing and stats are what determines the effectiveness of a Pokemon
Right from the outset, this post jumps off the cliff and into the garbage bin. "Baton Pass is only powerful in conjunction with a Pokemon's other capabilities; therefore, Baton Pass is not inherently broken.

Example: Baton Pass + stat boosting moves"

There's a truism going around that "Non-Pokemon elements are only banworthy if it breaks all their users." This is really dumb. we dont save sheer cold because spheal is balanced with it, we dont save baton pass because Eevee is balanced with it. The fact that a pokemon requires at least something in the way of stats or movepool in order to use an ability to broken affect doesnt make the ability not broken. The example isnt really true, either; Gothitelle doesnt really need taunt, it's just the best of several filler utility moves.
Section 2: Current Combinations of Shadow Tag
As of now, the main users of Shadow Tag are Mega Gengar, the Gothitelle line and Wobbuffet. Here are some examples of combinations with Shadow Tag that define their effectiveness

Mega Gengar:
- Taunt, Disable, Perish Song, Hypnosis
- Base 130 Speed, Base 170 Spatk
- Espeed immunity, Pixispeed resistance
- Powerful Stab Combination (aka fairy killer)

Wobbuffet:
- Self Explanatory

Gothitelle:
- Taunt, Rest, Trick, Confide, Charm, Trick Room, Calm Mind
- High SpDef
- Leftovers

It it difficult to map out how everything synergies together because this is text. A visual explanation of how each characteristic interacts with each other would explain how more specific combinations, like charm + confide + rest, work together, but that would take forever (lol).

Section 3: Impact on the Meta
The final step is to assess the impact of Shadow Tag on the current Meta. Mega Gengar is lackluster in terms of power since its main weapon, taunt is thwarted by the plethora of magic bounce users. Its low defense stats also render it susceptible to even neutral Judgement, not to mention pursuit trappers. The other niche it has is perish song to trap passive threats (including magic bounce users), but this is mostly outclassed by Gothitelle because of longevity

Gothitelle manages trap Support Arceus, Blissey and Toxapex with ease using its combinations discussed above, but it is unfortunately all it can do. Gothitelle is not versatile in any sense and is definitely not comparable to titans like Primal Groudon and Zygarde in that regard. Interestingly, Gothitelle only enables the player to gain an edge over passive teams using Arceus, Blissey, and Toxapex, which also happened to be some of the most popular Pokemon in the current Meta. Gothitelle is an extremely, easy to use anti-meta threat, but that does not facilitate a ban by any means.

There are always going to be Pokemon that counter specific play-styles. Anti-Meta threats only emerge when Meta-game patterns become obvious. Therefore, my final assertion is that this panic about Gothitelle is a sign that the Meta needs to shift its centralization to different Pokemon instead of banning Gothitelle!
Shadow tag can trap 90% of the metagame. Its just so customisable that there is no option; even if you "move away" from the best pokemon in the metagame, whatever the new metagame is will be trappable. Pdon/Zygarde? Trapped by Charm Goth (set dependant for pdon), as well as Dbond Gar and Wobbufett. Arceus and blissey are trapped by the current main set of goth, same with fairy, Kartana can be removed by hp fire / wobb, Lele by Shadow Ball, Deoxys by Magic coat... To make matters worse, since taunt isn't needed for any of the main things Gothitelle traps it can pick and choose to take out whatever the team is weak to. If your team can't take hazard stack, then magic coat just lets you instantly turn that matchup into a win. Same with atespeed vs charm. Its ability to remove all-but neccesary pokemon would be bad enough, but since it can customize itself so much it can pai with almost any offensive threat.
I'm sorry did I give you permission to do this ????

Anyways, I got reqs bois!
View attachment 92296

I thought about this a lot, and I'm going to be voting No Ban here.

Now, let's take a look at the three mons that abuse shadow tag; Wobbuffet, Gothitelle & Gengar-Mega

Wobbuffet is basically unusuable in this meta and it doesn't deserve a spot over other mons lmao

Gothitelle is viable, and works a way to pick off stall mons that can't deal with it. However to be used effectively vs mons like blissey, it requires leftovers in a metagame with such a power curve that it's not going to be effective whatsoever vs the more offensive mons, or stallmons such as mandibuzz. Mostly though, it requires a lot of skill to use effectively (hi qt trying to prove a point), and generally isn't broken.

Finally, we have Mega Gengar, best out of the three, but still isn't broken. It's going to trap and kill ur blissey, and PerishTrapping is dumb as hell, but most mons have a way to beat it (blueorb skarm can bbird it). If anything M-Gar is probably the most im on the fence about because of it's perish trapping, but otherwise I don't think it's extremely broken; as it's offenses are kinda lackluster compared to things like terrakion or zyggy.

so yeah that's my thoughts on it, feel free to pick it apart or w/e
Mega Gengar is in no wayy better than Goth. Psong traps approximately nothing that Gothitelle doesn't, while offensive sets are just not very potent. gengar does have the role compression of being able to run attacks alongside its perish trapping, but thats not that effective either. To be honest though, the power creep in MnM is not nearly as severe as you are suggesting. There's a reason Pdon, Arceus, and Xerneas are some of the most potent threats in the metagame; pdon is probably the strongest, really, and it gains nothing from ubers. The main thing Mix and Mega creeps is speed, as in terms of power its just more uniformly matched with high level ubers pokemon.
NO BAN 2.0
View attachment 92530

What goth has done to ubers had a great influence on starting up this suspect, since the 2 metas are quite similar.
if goth wasnt relevant in ubers or even ag, im 100% sure this suspect wouldnt be happening

Also do me a favour and read highlord's post before posting without knowing much, since I know almost none of you faced Goth before due to it being so uncommon :)
I appreciate that you can bring your knowledge of other metagames into this, but the use of gothitelle in Ubers and AG had no part in my choice to bring this to suspect, and I am reasonably sure the same goes for Chloe.
 
#15
Weew, let's see wat mons Goth loses to at S,A and B ranks.
Since goth already loses to 95% of offensive mons(which makes up like 75% of the meta btw) Imma just include Walls that are not bothered by it.
Mager with Vswitch, zapdos with uturn/Vswitch, Pdon, standared red orb togekiss, some support ceus that can implement physical zmoves but still be useful (ground or water arc), roar arc for that 1 time escape which can be crucial for Bo and balance teams, skarmory(if u run enough speed to outspeed Goth, u win) , ghost arc, buzzwole, mew with u turn, yveltal, Zygarde with dtail, both gira.
There are many alternatives to the stuff Goth can trap, but the meta didn't even develop enuf for people to bother using them since nobody uses Goth with the exception of esteemed qt :I and even now it isn't even broken lool
 
#16
Weew, let's see wat mons Goth loses to at S,A and B ranks.
Since goth already loses to 95% of offensive mons(which makes up like 75% of the meta btw) Imma just include Walls that are not bothered by it.
Mager with Vswitch, zapdos with uturn/Vswitch, Pdon, standared red orb togekiss, some support ceus that can implement physical zmoves but still be useful (ground or water arc), roar arc for that 1 time escape which can be crucial for Bo and balance teams, skarmory(if u run enough speed to outspeed Goth, u win) , ghost arc, buzzwole, mew with u turn, yveltal, Zygarde with dtail, both gira.
There are many alternatives to the stuff Goth can trap, but the meta didn't even develop enuf for people to bother using them since nobody uses Goth with the exception of esteemed qt :I and even now it isn't even broken lool
Shadow Tag is definitely potent enough for this suspect test to occur. The purpose of a suspect test thread is not to debate whether a Pokémon should have received a suspect test in the first place, but rather whether it deserves a ban outcome. It seems that you've come around to that, but you're still somehow misunderstanding the reasoning for its suspect in the first place. It isn't "broken" by common definition in any metagame, its issue is how it removes a core mechanic of the game for a multitude of Pokémon. You and I both acknowledge the Viability Ranking is quite outdated and inaccurate. Why does it form the entire basis of your argument? Lastly, you state that there are many alternatives and that the metagame didn't adapt sufficiently for Shadow Tag to be gauged correctly. While I agree that the lack of experience users have with it is quite daunting, the assumption that there are many un-trappable unexplored alternatives is an absurd argument. These Pokémon don't have the same capabilities as Pokémon such as Support Arceus and Blissey, neither of which requires an immediate nerf. I understand you don't have much experience in this metagame, so I'm willing to take your opinion with a grain of salt, but it's annoying when you're so insistent while clearly lacking the experience to form a solid opinion.

I fundamentally agree with Quantum in the sentiment that there are existent no ban reasons, if I didn't I wouldn't have agreed to this suspect test. They are not evident here however.
 
#18
Alright, looks like there's a bit of controversy in the thread about how people view Shadow Tag as itself - I personally think the main problem is that Gothitelle's usage (the main abuser) is just way too low to form an educated opinion on Shadow Tag unless you have seen it in tournaments, which is where the main idea comes from. I personally think, as FardinAG mentioned, this suspect may have started too early due to the lacking usage and unreliability of the ladder to determine actual effectiveness, and as such people have not been able to form an opinion of Shadow Tag's rather brutal effectiveness. Here are what I think are problems within Shadow Tag that might warrant an unban:

1) Difficulty to fit trappers on a team

The main problem I see with Shadow Tag is the fact that it is often just better to add another offensive Pokemon to the team rather than use a slot for something that can be unreliable in how much work it will put in each game due to the diversity of team playstyles. The thing that makes Gothitelle so potent is the fact that, with Shadow Tag, it is able to remove the most common defoggers in the metagame in Arceus-Ground and Fairy, making most bulky offense and balance teams vulnerable to the gap that it has opened. Some playstyles however, may need to target offensive teams with their remaining slots, making Gothitelle either a last thought or something a team has to be built around. It is this problem in usage that makes Gothitelle/Gothorita rather unreliable in an average matchup, which can seriously ruin a team if it has to operate on 5 Pokemon. As much as Gengar-Mega might warrant a mention here, it basically has to exchange a moveslot to trap Blissey, and it is completely unable to deal with Arceus-Fairy and Blissey if they have coverage (which Arceus-Fairy often does).

2) The exclusivity of Shadow Tag on their respective members is the broken part, therefore making the trappers broken as they utilize the ability to an extreme.

Now, you might think this is turning into a similar post to Highlord's. However, I have a few qualms about the claim made:
Section 1: The Nature of Shadow Tag
Shadow Tag is only powerful in conjunction with a Pokemon's other capabilities; therefore, Shadow Tag is not inherently broken.

Example: Shadow Tag + sleep-inducing moves/Encore/Taunt

Shadow Tag alone does not facilitate a ban; combinations of abilities, moves, typing and stats are what determines the effectiveness of a Pokemon
Whilst I get the point that you try to address, take a look at the two components. I definitely agree that the combination is what makes a Shadow Tag trapper effective, but it is not what makes it broken. Take a look at SleepTrap Gengar-Mega - despite Hypnosis' 60% accuracy, the combination of Shadow Tag and its ability to hax through walls with Hex + Hypnosis, obviously called for a complex ban that just had to be made because it was so ludicrously uncompetitive. The fact is, taking a look the moves alone, they wouldn't be too effective other than to create setup opportunities for teammates. However, Shadow Tag, even on any offensive or defensive mon, has such incredible augmentation that it can be used to incredible efficiency, dismantling cores without any competitive input from the opponent at all. All they can really do is just hope the trapper gets unlucky about it.

I also heard you talk about Pursuit as a trapping move, and compared the two - whilst a rather ridiculous comparison for the ranges of things that both can trap, you bring up a relevant point about how trapping can improve a Pokemon's viability, even if it targets a small range of the metagame. The fact is, Shadow Tag is ridiculous at doing this, making a Pokemon as bad as Gothitelle so potent in Mix and Mega because of it. This still goes on to the nature of Shadow Tag, however, the points being mentioned point strongly towards Shadow Tag being the broken aspect of a Pokemon, not its movepool, or its stats. These do contribute, as core stats do, but Shadow Tag amplifies this so greatly that it is obviously a problem.

3) It is too early to form an opinion on Shadow Tag due to the extremely low usage of such Pokemon.

This is more of a problem I have - whilst I am practically stuck believing that Shadow Tag, in almost all cases is broken, it is often never an impact on a team. In the cases which I do consider it, often times a good team will have fallback points without relying on a single Pokemon to do a job unless it is absolutely necessary to do so. Take a Groudon-Primal counter for example - most teams will have ways of damaging it or pressuring it heavily with offensive momentum rather than with their dedicated counter, such as Arceus-Ground. There are also alternatives to this Pokemon that don't lose to Gothitelle such as Hippowdon, however they do not have the movepool that Arceus-Ground can utilize to help support the team - neither does it have the Speed to deal with such a threat consistently, having Swords Dance variants break through. Other alternatives may have an even bigger problem, such as lack of recovery, loss to a coverage move, et cetera. This unfortunately pressures teambuilding into utilizing support Arceus to deal with threats that Gothitelle can remove consistently, making it considerably harder to build with it in mind. However, the incredibly low usage of Gothitelle almost means nothing against this - often times I build without it in mind at all, because most players in Mix and Mega do not know of or understand how Shadow Tag can be used so effectively.

This is mainly relating to Fardin's first post - however, I also have some of my own opinions for the post:

What goth has done to ubers had a great influence on starting up this suspect, since the 2 metas are quite similar.
if goth wasnt relevant in ubers or even ag, im 100% sure this suspect wouldnt be happening
I'm adamant the main reasoning for this isn't based on Ubers or AG. In the OP, the main reasoning is expressed through Quantum Tesseract's post - the very fact that Gothitelle can so efficiently trap common Pokemon in Ubers that just so happen to mainly relate to Mix and Mega is what I feel the reasoning relates to, and is why discussion has sparked up in both areas. However, I do agree that its usage in Ubers is what has caused this knock-on effect to occur in MnM - which has caused realization of this Pokemon.

As a conclusion, I personally do believe that Shadow Tag is broken. Whilst opinions may be different, and whilst other people may attack them and try to change them too actively, I think that both banning and not banning have their reasons laid out, and serious discussion has finally started on an issue which - to be honest - should have been sparked before this suspect test ever happened. Whilst I agree that a suspect test is the best way to go about this, the fact that not a single relevant MnM tour has come out before this Pokemon was even mentioned in Ubers to now where Gothitelle has been used may have made it too early to tell how broken something truly is.

and before I ask - please try to keep civilized discussion in a suspect thread. Even if it is controversial, even if it's trying to fix stupid arguments (which I personally do not think there is, just misunderstandings), being calm about it would do much better to make people potentially understand their arguments and reconsider rather than just attacking them because they might not have the views that you would have for an argument.
 
#19
Gothitelle and Mega-Gengar are perfectly balanced in my view, here's why:

Gothitelle:
- You can literally count with the fingers on your hand the ammount of pokemon it can trap and take out effectively. Goth is extremely good at exactly that, taking out very specific threats that may cause you some trouble with little to no counterplay. Against anything else, it is simply sack fodder which is what makes it balanced, teams that use pokemon such as Pdon that fear pokemon such as Groundceus can use Goth quite well, and teams that want to use the passive walls Goth breaks need to keep it in mind. In any other situation Goth is completely irrelevant, and thus making it balanced, not in the sense that it has counterplay, but in the sense that it's some got great matchups and some very bad ones.

Mega-Gengar:
- Gengar has the surprise factor in which if you don't know its set when it comes in, you may easily lose a pokemon for free, but after evolving, its effectiveness decreases quite a bit because it gets restricted to certain matchups much like Gothitelle. Post evolution it can only come in on almost the same passive walls that goth can and easily remove them, sometimes, if it gets the 50-50 right again and comes in on something that has no priority, isn't faster and doesn't deal 75% of its hp, it might just be able to claim another ko, but these scenarios are just too improbable and luck reliant to be able to be pulled off consistently, therefore making Gengar balanced.

Final thoughts:
While Shadow Tag certainly is something that breaks a core mechanic of the game and forces the players to play different by its simple presence in team preview, it is just another layer of complexity and the best player will still win most of the time.


Edit: Something I forgot to mention, since the sample size of Shadow Tag on the ladder is so low, the suspect should not only have allowed it, but encouraged it as well, so players that didn't have a chance to play with or against Shadow Tag can form a better opinion.
 
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Laxpras

Young Metro Trusts Me
is a Pre-Contributor
#20


No Ban

This was a really peculiar suspect imo. There's been essentially one person to reliably use Shadow Tag to notable success in the entirety of the meta and there was minimal complaints outside of that about it, but there have been ongoing and common complaints about things like DeoS, which it seems like almost every person in the om room now thinks is broken, and the concern for this mon has been shown in the thread also but whatever, as chloe told me (probably after being annoyed after me bringing it up so often), "anyone that thinks deos is broken is dumb"

Regarding shadow tag specifically, I don't see it being
1. overwhelming in any way
2. common enough for its potential to be even considered in anything more than a theoretical basis (as you can see by votes here saying things like "I saw it once in the suspect but idk ban"

I dont think anyone actually thinks MGengar is broken, if you do idk what to tell you this meta is higher powered than ubers lol its just objectively not.
Regarding Gothitelle, it is 100% deadweight vs offense, balance beats it as typically balance relies on sablenite and pivoting for its walls
Obviously its a threat against stall. So are lots of things. I don't play stall but i dont see how Goth could be harder to handle than something like Xurkitree?
Magic bounce generally beats Goth. Taunt beats goth. Dragon tail beats goth. Pivoting into any of these things beats goth. I don't see how this "straight 6-0s stall."

Yes its a big threat, which like any other threat, you can play around.

Also headsup argue my post if you want but im prob not gunna respond i dont see my thoughts ever being valued too much in mnm so im stopping with my NO BAN vote (to what seems like a personal suspect-mission of qt rather than a community driven effort), and minirant
 

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#23
Do not ban
I don't think we should ban Shadow tag, because in my opinion, it is not broken. Goth can trap passive pokemons that dont have volt/turn and pretty much destroy them, but it pretty much loses to the rest of the metagame. The rest of the metagame being offensive pokemons that can beat it. Goth just doesn't beat enough pokemons in the metagame to consider shadow tag broken. It is good for what it does, but we are not going to start banning some stuff because they start beating a few pokemons. That's all I had to say.

mnm shadow tag reqs.PNG
 
#25
Ban this shit
Gothitelle and Mega-Gengar are perfectly balanced in my view, here's why:

Gothitelle:
- You can literally count with the fingers on your hand the ammount of pokemon it can trap and take out effectively. Goth is extremely good at exactly that, taking out very specific threats that may cause you some trouble with little to no counterplay. Against anything else, it is simply sack fodder which is what makes it balanced, teams that use pokemon such as Pdon that fear pokemon such as Groundceus can use Goth quite well, and teams that want to use the passive walls Goth breaks need to keep it in mind. In any other situation Goth is completely irrelevant, and thus making it balanced, not in the sense that it has counterplay, but in the sense that it's some got great matchups and some very bad ones.
This was a really peculiar suspect imo. There's been essentially one person to reliably use Shadow Tag to notable success in the entirety of the meta and there was minimal complaints outside of that about it, but there have been ongoing and common complaints about things like DeoS, which it seems like almost every person in the om room now thinks is broken, and the concern for this mon has been shown in the thread also but whatever, as chloe told me (probably after being annoyed after me bringing it up so often), "anyone that thinks deos is broken is dumb"

Regarding shadow tag specifically, I don't see it being
1. overwhelming in any way
2. common enough for its potential to be even considered in anything more than a theoretical basis (as you can see by votes here saying things like "I saw it once in the suspect but idk ban"

I dont think anyone actually thinks MGengar is broken, if you do idk what to tell you this meta is higher powered than ubers lol its just objectively not.
Regarding Gothitelle, it is 100% deadweight vs offense, balance beats it as typically balance relies on sablenite and pivoting for its walls
Obviously its a threat against stall. So are lots of things. I don't play stall but i dont see how Goth could be harder to handle than something like Xurkitree?
Magic bounce generally beats Goth. Taunt beats goth. Dragon tail beats goth. Pivoting into any of these things beats goth. I don't see how this "straight 6-0s stall."

Yes its a big threat, which like any other threat, you can play around.

Also headsup argue my post if you want but im prob not gunna respond i dont see my thoughts ever being valued too much in mnm so im stopping with my NO BAN vote (to what seems like a personal suspect-mission of qt rather than a community driven effort), and minirant
This is a pretty common misconception I see being thrown around here, but gothitelle isn't nearly this limited. There are certain mons (Pdon, Genesect, Xurkitree, Ghosts, <relevant darks>) that Gothitelle just can't trap, but beyond that Gothitelle and gothorita are insanely customizable, often without ever sacrificng their core utility. Even a Physically defensive charm set can still trap ceus via pivoting, doubles, revenging, or coming in on any move other than judgment, to say nothing of minor things like running Shadow Ball for Tapu Lele or Magic Coat to trap Deoxys-S instead of taunt. Really, my post on the matter is a bit dated, as the reason for running taunt (stuff like venu mage) doesnt really apply that much anymore. Offensive mons can be hard for goth to switch into without predictions, but it is entirely capable of removing many of them once it gets in; if your team struggles with an offensive threat as well as ceus / blissey, you can make it essentially a nonissue as well.

It's 100% true that gothitelle has bad matchups, but it possesses many tools to counteract this like the sheer freedom it gives its team to focus on offense, and many of the bad matchups are entirely set dependant and are difficult to identify until you've been trapped.



As far as Deo-S Goes, Laxpras I think you have a valid point but its not one I entirely agree with. I'll be attempting to lay out exactly why I pushed for this over Deo-S in a hide tag, if you or anyone else wants further clarification please feel free to PM me or post in the Mix and Mega thread at any time.
Deoxys is, without a doubt, one of the premeir threats in the metagame. It has not one but two extremely potent sets for offense, and both of them have both several options and non-identical counterplay. While in many cases it is possible to tell which set it is (If they have no hazard setter, its hazard lead, if they cary defensive mons, its pidgeotite), this isn't always the case, and players can still exploit this assumption. Both sets are also extremely easy to use and have low skill floors. However, while an eventual suspect is not out of the question, particularly if its position in the metagame improves via some innovation or major meta shift to make it better, it was ultimately not my vote for the current suspect for a couple of reasons.

First off, suspect priority. Whiel both Gothitelle and and Deoxys are arguably broken, in addition to my opinions on relative brokenensss Gothitelle's use of shadow tag is also uncompetative. All else similar, I will vote to remove elements that are both uncompetative and broken before one that's merely broken, and while Zap Cannon is annoying it doesn't reach that level in my opinion. Thus, Gothitelle was an easy "first" pick for suspect.

However, this only explains the order, not the lack of an actual suspect. To me, that's because as strong as Deoxys-S is, its fundementally not broken. Taking the set in question, Pidgeotite; it has outright counters (Magearna, Jirachi, Necrozma, Lunala), it has difficulty 1v1ing much without chip, and is in turn exceedinly vulnerable to opposing offensive teams. While Deo-S can live an extremespeed from full, it's quite easy to chip, especially given that psycho boost forces it to switch extremely often. Deoxys-S is also quite prediction reliant for its top level usage; for instance, if it clicks any move bar psycho boost, -Atespeeders can come in, while anything but focus blast invites steels, andything but nasty plot invites defensive walls, and anything but Zap Cannon helps the likes of Yveltal. Furthermore, even when it succesfully KOes a pokemon, it is readily forced out, with Psycho Boost in particular giving much of the metagame a free setup chance. In short, Despite its potential, what Deo-S fosters is skillfull play, and rewards heavily the better player. While the degree does leave something to be desired, ultimately rewarding a player for succesfully predicting their oppoent is a good thing, not a bad one, especially when failing the prediction comes with proportional consequences. It's also the case that the counterplay is readily available and otherwise viable should the player feel less confident in consistantly predicting it, or just not want to take the chance.