M&M Mix and Mega

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

Can the post I typed above, regarding the playability of the metagames, have any discussion? I feel like it will help to grow the metagame, if we allow all allowed Mega Stones (nothing banned like beedrillite), rather than just the ninetendo released ones.

We also discussed all of this in the previous thread from 6th generation. There's a very good reason both Beedrillite and Mawilite are getting banned right off the bat, and it's that they're ncredibly power on pretty much anything that's not a native user... They just bust the game right open, and cause things like Beedrillite Carracosta to come out of nowhere and just dominate. It's that simple... they jut warp the metagame around them, and it's incredibly unhealthy.

I do have questions regarding our Mega Stones, though.

1.) I want to hear all of your reasonings for keeping Huge Power stones from native Huge Power learners. I know it was nearly pointless in the first place, but this is just to make sure that I know why that decision was reversed in the first place.(I know QT's reasoning well, but haven't heard a peep regarding this from the rest of you...)

2.)When are we going to return to the one stone limit? The timing of this is important, and if it's done at a good time, I think we can restore a good amount of activity to the thread...

3.) When Blazikenite gets released again, are we going to suspect test it again?

Also, I want to have some discussion regarding underrated creatures here. As usual.

Flygon @ Pinsirite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Return
- Earthquake
- Roost/Quick Attack/Stone Edge

While this is a carbon copy of the one in my RMT, I wanted to post this here. Flygon really, really, appreciates Dragon Dance. It helps it sweep and become a potent threat. Ground/Flying is a really good typing, including in Mix and Mega, both offensively and defensively.
Return and Earthquake are the bread and butter in this, hitting neutral coverage on a great number of Pokémon, and both being SE on a variety, as well. Adding Stone Edge makes this coverage perfect, but adding Roost helps you beat Arceus-Rock and others that can't really damage Flygon well (which is mostly passive walls), and Quick Attack beats Pheromosa.
If and when Dragonite is banned, I can expect Flygon will have much more usage.

 

[Chloe]

Maybe the Owner/person in charge of this particular OM should simply specify it now does allow non-cartridge Mega Stones. After all, you said "this uniform approach of not allowing anything unreleased in metagames, unless the metagame's idea specifies it does" means we just need the OM Owner to decide.

And considering Zephyr Dragon Lord also mentioned that "I think we can restore a good amount of activity to the thread..." means we need to keep the thread from dying.

I think the thread owner would rather have a live and active metagame than one that limits variety, strategy, and players when there are new OMs and other more popular OMs like Balanced Hackmons that are taking players away.

I'll PM the owner and see what they think, (thanks for letting me know the exception so I can try and salvage this OM)- since they can simply specify opening Mix and Mega to include all stones, with the same bans on beedrillite and others that are currently in place.

JUST REALIZED: you are the owner... so you can decide to specify it.

If you are concerned about suddenly changing it, remember there is no precedent- last Gen, Gen 6 had all of the released Mega stones because it came with the games, it was introduced all at once for X & Y, and then more when ORAS came out.

So we never had to hold back on slow, and infrequent distributions for this Metagame, therefore, we can set the precedent this Gen, so that from now on, (helping the OM activity for future generations), we can play as we would have in Gen 6. We would keep the ban limits on whom can use Mega Stones (Beedrillite, etc.) we would just have availability for the ones permitted to be used by anyone, such as Swampertite.



Zygote dragon, I wasn't saying to unban Beedrillite or Mawilite, I was saying "allow all allowed" meaning keep the bans and let all the ones that wouldn't be banned.

Okay, this is going to be my last post regarding the decision. I'm going to rephrase what I said just to help it sink in. I would prefer all stones being allowed but it's not up to me, it's up to the OM leaders. As I've attempted to clarify in my previous post as well as Grains of Salt attempting to clarify a myriad of times throughout the thread, that is something out of the metagame leader's control. The metagame is not dead, it's still completely active, the only thing dead is its forum activity, which seems to be common amongst a moiety of the metagame threads at this current time. I feel like you're choosing to ignore the fact that I told you the decision had been discussed without any change, and are adamant that discussing a topic that was previously threatened with deletion, is the right course of action. Please stop mindlessly pulling at straws, and please stop discussing this topic.

If you need to respond please PM me as you know very well I cannot reverse the decision. May I request you read the entirety of the thread to see the issues this topic has caused, and read the part where it's been stated discussion on the topic would result in deletion.

 

[M'joe'ra]

Oh the irony

 

[Funbot28]

Using stall quite a bit myself, I don't really feel that its dominating at all really when we have threats such as DD Dragonite, NP Hoopa-U and Dual Dance Primal Groudon causing a lot of issues. There are just too many threats to prepare for to make a consistent stall team in this current meta (which is why I agree Dnite should be looked at a.s.a.p).

I might as well take this opportunity to drop some cool mons (that dont mega evolve!) that I have been using on stall then to check certain things:

================

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Counter
- Recover

Regular Quagsire has actually been working out quite well for me on most of my stall builds mainly due to it being able to check both Dnite and Primal Groudon (two of the biggest threats for stall rn) due to it being able to avoid the 2HKO from Dnite (although with Pdon it needs to be at above ~68% health to Counter ). It can then proceed to Toxic stall or KO certain mons with Counter, which works very well. Unaware is very important for any stall build, and I feel thats its being underused on many MnM defensive teams.

calcs:
252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Dugtrio @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Aerial Ace
- Memento

Although this may seem rather unconventional especially in a meta where everything is a bit more bulkier, Dugtrio is still able to trap specific threats that hurt stall (mainly Pheromosa, Volcorona, and weakened Hoopa-U/Primal Groudon/Tapu Lele) which can give so much more free breathing room for the stall team to function throughout the rest of the match. I agree its niche, but it has been pulling its weight for me so far and I encourage others to start using it as well (especially Ground Z Duggy + Scarf Ogre).

Also CM Blissey should be used on stall imo, cleric is nice but having a nice wincon to ensure wins is better.

 

[M'joe'ra]

tbh. a proper stall can easily deal with 90% (or more) of the meta including DD Dragonite, NP Hoopa-U ,Dual Dance Primal Groudonm, lele, phero, volca, mgar, mana and etc..
I might sound cocky, but i feel like literally no viable team could break one of the stall that im using currently, unless the opp brings some hardcore ct

Show us the team then and how it can't be broken

 

[Funbot28]

Eh, im out mnm open..

Shed stall

Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Sneak
- Protect
- Metal Claw

Scizor @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 20 Def / 232 SpD
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Pursuit
- U-turn
- Toxic

Blissey @ Sablenite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell
- Soft-Boiled

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Defog
- Rest
- Dragon Tail

Skarmory @ Sablenite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Whirlwind
- Toxic

Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 4 SpA / 68 SpD / 40 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Judgment
- Recover
- Roar

From what ive seen on ladd, the biggest problem for this stall would be Alola Muk, but other then that...i havent come accros a viable team that does great in general and can beat this team(as long as the stall is used correctly ofc)

Don't want to clutter this thread, but CM + Sub Lunala with can really hamper your team. (its not a niche set, have used it before and its not just a CT to stall) as it can 2HKO Scizor after rocks. So yeh while its an unorthodox set, I guess thats something to consider.

+1 200 SpA Lunala Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Scizor: 135-159 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

Also, a Raikou/Archeops offensive core gives that stall team severe problems. You have absolutely nothing to prevent a Volt Switch outside of Shedinja, which gets bopped by a Weather Ball. The team also has a sole win condition in Blissey, which is messed up by Mega Gengar. Actually, Raikou>Mega Gengar just makes that team cry. Giratina has nothing for Gengar. Skarmory can't even touch Gengar. Only Pursuit Scizor can really touch Gengar, and it still loses out to Sub/Perish Song variants...

I'm afraid we have plenty of things to ruin stall right now, from Darkrai to Primal Kyogre to Mega Gengar... stall's always been balanced, even with these two Sablenites available.

 

[thdhted]

:o. idk how Raikou can be a threat as long as hazards are off the field, because volt switch which does nothing to gira and blissey(ig u mean that it can gain momentum?)... also blissey can easily set rocks up on almost any poke so stopping volt/turn cores isnt really a prob. and yh, when mgar comes in turn 1 and subs in order to avoid dying to Pursuit scizor(no one really subs cause im one of the few who runs Gyaradosite and they almost never expect it) it can be a big pain, but literally the only mon it can kill off is Blissey, and with some mind plays, i can lure it in and double to scizor..but regardless its a problem for sure.

You obviously haven't fought any offense core that has Red Orb Raikou in it. Red Orb Raikou pretty much munches stall for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. NOTHING can switch in on STAB Weather ball safely, and even then, if it's running CM Blissey can't safely come in and Raikou is free to play around softboiled:
+1 252 SpA Raikou Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Harsh Sunshine: 222-262 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Raikou Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Harsh Sunshine: 295-348 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
And that's assuming Blissey is running Sp Def.(which yours is).

Not to mention anyone using Red Orb Raikou is going to be running a defogger. Ghostceus is a pretty good defogger and gives major problems to your team if it wants to stay in on Scizor:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Scizor Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ghost: 144-170 (32.4 - 38.2%) -- 97.3% chance to 3HKO
Scizor promptly gets burnt and arceus gets to run off nearly scot-free.

 

[Chloe]

This just in, the March mega stone releases are Pidgeotite and Steelixite.

Source.

 

[tegrof19]

now the real question, we all know darkrai is going to be broke with pidgeotite, but which one is banworthy here?

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

This just in, the March mega stone releases are Pidgeotite and Steelixite.

Source.

Oh. Oh no. I was completely right. We're getting Pidgeotite early.

RIP Stall, Darkrai, and Shaymin-Sky

(and steelixite, too, but we already have garchompite)

 

[david0895]

now the real question, we all know darkrai is going to be broke with pidgeotite, but which one is banworthy here?

Pheromosa @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Focus Blast
- Blizzard

Shaymin-Sky @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Earth Power
- Giga Drain

 

[thdhted]

Idk why u even think that a Raikou can shit on that stall Lol. Here are some of the real calcs from Raikou..
252 SpA Raikou Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 148-175 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- 34.8% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Raikou Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 124-147 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (Harsh Sunshine is included for both calcs)
Lol as u can see it barely does anything and one single toxic will prevent the opponent to spam it..Also why would Ghost ceus be a problem? I can just easily toxic it with 1 of my mons and from that point on, use srock with blissey until it has to switch out or die.

All of the calcs I posted for it imply Raikou has a Calm mind up, which it finds very easy to do against something as passive as your team. One boosted Weather Ball 3HKOs Giratina alone, forcing it to Rest the next turn, and making Toxic stalling it somewhat problematic. It flat out OHKOs three of your team members(75% chance for arceus, though rocks or any prior damage turn that into an OHKO). Shedinja fails to seriously threaten Raikou:
252+ Atk Shedinja Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raikou: 58-70 (18 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO
Not to mention that unless you can constantly keep Rocks up on your opponent's side of the field(not easy considering the amount of sablenite mons and easy access to defog), Raikou can very easily just volt switch out whenever it feels like it.

 

[M'joe'ra]

The true cteam stallbreaker is Nasty Plot, Roost, Heal Bell, Flamethrower Red Orb Togekiss. If your skarm was blue orb it wouldn't destroy you as badly but it isn't. Your only check beyond pp stall is waterceus roar, but that doesn't hurt toge outside of rocks. Besides, mono fire toge isn't that fantastic anyways

 

[GolisopodMan]

As a non-competitive player, stall is just annoying. It bring matches to a crawl and is generally boring to play against, often being little more than toxic/pp stalling or CM+recovery spam.
This may also just be personal, but I feel like stall takes very little to no actual skill to play.

 

[Sylveon.]

Well, if we are trying to ct that team how about sub-pain split or sub-cm red orb chandelure + something to pressurize arc-water, which isn't a big issue due to it's passivity. So, all you are left to do is try to pp stall with blissey since literally nothing switches into it's stab combo, but pain split + flamethrower under sun forces you to recover like every two turns.
Also, though not common specs kyu-w has an excellent match-up against your team, again only viable switch-in left is blissey which could be taken advantage of by any decent player.

As a non-competitive player, stall is just annoying. It bring matches to a crawl and is generally boring to play against, often being little more than toxic/pp stalling or CM+recovery spam.
This may also just be personal, but I feel like stall takes very little to no actual skill to play.View attachment 78695

Though I am not a big stall fan either, but that is just a misconception. In an offensively paced meta like this, good stall teams are hard to come by and ones that do imo need much more skillful plays than your average offensive team.

 

[The Immortal]

Good news, Mewtwonite X and Mewtwonite Y have been unexpectedly released!

 

[Funbot28]

Oh this is great news, Mewtwonite Y was not that releavnt last gen and I don't imagine it to be that important this gen due to tier being much better special mega stones. However, Mega Mewtwo X was a nice stone to use for physical attackers in XY MnM (due to Loppunite not existing yet). I can see things like Landorus-T, Kartana, Hoopa-U and Metagross using the stone due to the extra Fighting typing working well with their movepools / other types. This will hopefully bring some diversity to the top tier mega stones I feel (although Lopunnite when..)

 

[thdhted]

Oh this is great news, Mewtwonite Y was not that releavnt last gen and I don't imagine it to be that important this gen due to tier being much better special mega stones. However, Mega Mewtwo X was a nice stone to use for physical attackers in XY MnM (due to Loppunite not existing yet). I can see things like Landorus-T, Kartana, Hoopa-U and Metagross using the stone due to the extra Fighting typing working well with their movepools / other types. This will hopefully bring some diversity to the top tier mega stones I feel (although Lopunnite when..)

I can ironically see Kartana using this. Literally the only (legal) pokemon to actually reach the 255 stat cap in attack. AND it has swords dance.

 

[david0895]

https://scpinion.github.io/mix-and-mega-damage-calc/

I think this needs to be updated

 

[Destroyer6924]

I have a question, if I have a Battle Bond Greninja holding an Absolite and then I activate Battle Bond becoming Ash-Greninja, then I mega evolve, will I have Mega Absols stat boosts added onto Ash-Greninjas stats or will I just have Mega Absols stat boosts added onto regular Greninjas stats?

Also will Water Shuriken still have the damage buff if I mega evolve Ash-Greninja?

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I have a question, if I have a Battle Bond Greninja holding an Absolite and then I activate Battle Bond becoming Ash-Greninja, then I mega evolve, will I have Mega Absols stat boosts added onto Ash-Greninjas stats or will I just have Mega Absols stat boosts added onto regular Greninjas stats?

Also will Water Shuriken still have the damage buff if I mega evolve Ash-Greninja?

The stats will be that of regular greninja+absolite, so you're usually better off with protean gren in case you need that+protean gren's better movepool. The water shruiken buff will not apply.

 

[david0895]

scpinion when the calc will be updated?

 

[thdhted]

Well, apparently we're getting Pidgeotenite and Steelixite this month from the new online competition. So this pretty much means Hypnosis Gengar returns with a vengeance, as well as giving us a GOOD special attack-based stone. Oh, and I guess Gigalith can do stuff with it's new Sand Stream and Steelixite..... or something.

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-02/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt (Basic stats for main ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-02/moveset/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt (Moveset data for main ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-02/metagame/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt (Team information for main ladder)

A bit late, but new data's stormed in again. Maybe some of you can use these statistics to your advantage and prove a certain someone wrong about HP Ground Manaphy being common.

Anyways, I'm actually here to post about something with a shocking amount of power...

Incineroar @ Lucarionite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Darkest Lariat
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake

Yep, that starter that people love to hate, according to some sources. After an Swords Dance, Blissey is taking around 80% with Flare Blitz, which is a pretty crazy damage output, and is on Mamoswine-like levels. Sadly, there's no Intimidate Hidden Ability released for Le Tigre yet, but even before then, you can use Incineroar as a pretty solid Psychic buster that can take on Tapu Lele and Cresselia... Oh, and it can use U-turn, if you're into that.

Just a little showcase. No calcs yet. I'll save that for the Alolan starter Hidden Ability release date.

E: My gosh, Flygon actually shows up on Primal Groudon's checks and counters list... better than Zygarde. Let that sink in for a second.