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Gen 3 MixMence

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Lord Ninjax, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    So I was trawling through the Smogon analyses looking for an idea for my next ADV team when I found a 3rd Gen MixMence set. So this thread is kinda meant to comment on MixMence in 3rd gen and how it works and matches up against the more commonly used DDMence and CBMence.

    Here's the set in Showdown exportable format:

    Salamence @ Leftovers
    EVs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe
    Rash Nature
    -Hidden Power Grass
    -Fire Blast
    -Brick Break
    -Dragon Claw/Rock Slide

    So its kinda obvious from the outset that this is a more specially oriented Salamence designed to break its common switch-ins like Bulky Waters and Steel Types (Swampert and Skarm are good examples). HP Grass also does a fair bit (at worst 3HKOing), to Claydol, another major Mence counter. Brick Break beats the common Special Sponges like Blissey and Snorlax. Dragon Claw is a solid, and spammable STAB that beats Flygon and opposing Salamence, however Rock Slide is stronger against Flying types like Zapdos and Aerodactyl.

    24 Attack EVs give Mence the 2HKO on 4 HP/252+ Def Blissey under Sand with one layer of Spikes up, along with guaranteeing a 3HKO on all variants of Lax. Max speed allows Mence to outrun all variants of Suicune and Heracross, while at worst Speed tying with Flygon and opposing Mence, which can be crucial if you're running Dragon Claw. The rest are poured into SpA for power in hitting Physical Walls. Rash is run over Mild to dodge the 2HKO from CB Heracross Megahorn.

    This Salamence is again, best run as a lure and Wallbreaker, not a sweeper. The recipe for success is usually just lead off with it, let your opponent switch in his Mence Counter and then just hit it with the appropriate move. The surprise value of this set is pretty big and can give you a big advantage by KOing your opponents Physical wall, however it will fall to faster attackers such as Aerodactyl or Naive Flygon (depending on the last move), and certain walls like Milotic it struggles to get through (at best HP Grass 3HKOs). A Physical sweeper can pair with MixMence as it usually clears out Physical Walls easily, alternatively it can run more Attack EVs and pair with a CM sweeper to take out Snorlax and/or Blissey. Its ability to check Swampert also makes Metagross a great partner, as more offensive sets become viable for Metagross with a free moveslot, while at the same time the two have great type synergy.

    So thats MixMence, please add your own thoughts about its strengths, weaknesses, alternative moves and spreads, partners etc. Thanks for reading.
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2014
  2. MoxieInfinite

    MoxieInfinite Banned deucer.

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    real men run mixed dnite.
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  3. kill yourself

    kill yourself .|~Fashionista~|.
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    i think toxic is better than hp grass, triangles used it on his team in spl because otherwise milotic walls mence for days on end and it still nabs swampert. restalk shrugs it off but those are a lot easier to beat down than the protect variants.
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  4. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Jolly Mence outruns you, so it's not "at worst tied".
  5. MoxieInfinite

    MoxieInfinite Banned deucer.

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    Jolly Mence exists?
  6. kill yourself

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    sometimes its used on cb for the same reasons you would use it on flygon.
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  7. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    Yeah, Dragonite's niche as a mixed attacker is better than Mence's in 3rd Gen due to a better movepool (especially dat Focus Punch....woo). However, Mence's higher offensive stats, and its great Speed, mean that it can better face up against a lot of things, not least Bulky Waters switching in. A more reliable fighting type move helps as well (let's face it, Focus Punch nails things on the switch but what is Nite gonna do when the opponent switches in Blissey or Snorlax afterwards?), plus Salamence, with can run a Naive nature, sacrificing a little Special Offense to outrun all base 100s, especially stuff like Celebi and Jirachi along with Jolly CBMence and Flygon. It also can safely beat Gengar switch ins (as Dragon Claw safely 2HKOs all variants of Gengar)
  8. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan

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    I've always had two main problems with mixmence. The first is that it just doesn't have enough power to break a lot of the walls it needs to break. Blissey can take a brick break and ohko with ice beam, if you mispredict you can just switch and softboiled later. lax can curse up and body slam, and can even switch in on a brick break without much issue. It still threatens celebi, skarm and forre with fire blast/flamethrower, but as far as bulky waters go, swampert is really the only one that is going to care. The other problem i have is that it's hard to keep the surprise hidden. Unlike mixed metagross or ttar, it has no spammable physical stab attacks to keep the illusion it's a regular set. Once people see dragon claw, or hp grass, or even that weak ass brick break, they know what set it is. With spikes down though it can be pretty deadly.
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  9. adv

    adv

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    yea, mixmence loses to blissey but the kind of teams that have a mixmence on aren't really ones that need bliss removal. mixmence's brick break isn't really there for killing blisseys. lax can't really switch into mixmence lol - brick break's doing like 35%, and thats a lot for a snorlax most likely in sand. toxic is better than hp grass as you gain the ability to shit on milotic and random things while still beating non sleeptalk perts. in terms of keeping it a surprise, either do some scouting with double switches if you want to catch like a skarm, or go balls out as stab dragon claw fuckin hurts off like 350 special attack - thats the one you spam. mixmence is still very good even without surprise value, that just helps it more. mixmence likes sand a lot, and also spikes too if thats what you're into.
  10. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan

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    What i meant with the lax is that yes, switching in on brick break isn't ideal, but if you do mispredict and switch in on brick break it's not the end of the world, sure lax doesn't like taking that damage, but it can still stay in and force the mixmence out. You aren't forced to make yet another switch to avoid your lax being killed. If you're going to use toxic, i've always felt flygon is a much better option, it's got the freedom to run more bulk which couples with its superior typing to allow it to safely counter some pretty dangerous pokemon such as tyranitar, and stab eq + toxic + fireblast is pretty difficult to switch in to. It also has the added benefit of being extremely difficult to wear down, allowing it to fit better on a sand team.
  11. kill yourself

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    not only does flygon have 4mss (whereas mence can do everything it needs to with dclaw/fire blast/bb/toxic) and substantially weaker offenses, but also the kinds of teams that mixmence is supposed to be used on usually dont really need the extra ttar coverage, with shit like swampert and metagross, and flygon would leave them brutally raped by heracross. i'm not saying flygons not good, i think its great, but it doesnt outclass mence at this role.

    if lax comes in on brick break, you switch to ttar/meta and youve forced it out, congrats! now when mence shows up again they have to either sac something for lax to switch in and repeat the same scenario or make some risky moves (and this scenario sounds like the mixmence user is at a pretty good advantage to me).

    btw blissey isnt an issue, in fact you should welcome seeing it. if it eats a brick break as it comes in you get a free switch to meta/ttar/hera as theyre forced to softboiled.
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  12. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    Yeah.....MixMence I've just realised also works well for late game cleaning, especially with Spikes and Sand Support, getting 2-3HKOs on pretty much every common Pokemon, meaning it can help finish off a weakened team.....giving it a spot in a more offensive team, albeit one more heavy offense without a setup sweeper....also if you run it as a lead in that team you can bluff a DD late game sweeper, or CB attacker, leading to the opponent trying to preserve his physical walls only to get wrecked by the mixed coverage....so its great for mind games of that sort.
  13. dekzeh

    dekzeh The caretaker of sin
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    Black Belt is my favorite item for MixMence, you fake CB if you switch in with Sandstorm up and the extra Brick Break damage is very helpful on beating Lax and Blissey n_n
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  14. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    Yeah, but if you run MixMence in Sand without Leftovers recovery, you'll need a Wish Passer otherwise Mence will wear down, especially against stuff like Snorlax
  15. Jirachee

    Jirachee Kaleidoscope
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    not really... mence is immune to Spikes so the only passive damage it takes is from Sand. Obviously it'll get worn down a lil but mence's goal isn't to stick around and tank hits anyway. Do you run a wish passer every time you use cb mence?
  16. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    Idk about that.....really I like keeping my CB Pokemon alive until I think it's work is done: When it eliminates everything it needs to on an opposing team: Salamence is also worth preserving for Intimidate which can serve as an emergency out to a CBer like Heracross if he gets a crit, you mispredict, or otherwise he gets into a good position. I prefer keeping stuff alive unless it's being knocked out helps my position or at least till I don't need it and MixMence can be useful for a lot of reasons in a game.
  17. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan

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    Still 1/16 at the end of each turn isn't enough to devote an entire team slot to a wish user. I do find lefties to be better in general on mixmence though, mence does have to switch in on attacks every now and then, particularly against heracross and celebi, and that extra recovery can mean a world of difference It's also pretty hard to bluff a band when your only physical move is brick break, even if you're spamming it, any decent player will be able to tell from the damage. I guess i can see some merit to it though, gives you a better chance at 2hkoing blissey.
  18. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    Yeah, it's not just 1/16, some things like Lax may get off a hit or two before going down, that can help speed up the wearing down, plus yeah there's the switching in on attacks, especially to check stuff like Heracross or CBMence (you outspeed it, leave it offensively weak with Intimidate and threaten it with Dragon Claw).

    Brick Break is also not necessarily the only Physical move, as I've made an alternative spread on my own, designed to remove Lax, Blissey and Base 100 Speed Mons, though Fire Blast still makes Skarm and Forry cry. This spread also features options such as Rock Slide to do a lot more damage against Zapdos and Aerodactyl (Zapdos especially takes a lot more), HP Flying if you need to counter Celebi and Heracross better, or even if you prefer a Physical STAB, and lastly Hydro Pump, a kind of gimmicky option that hits Claydol, which otherwise hardwalls this set, while still doing solid damage (3HKO) to Skarm and Forry. HP Grass also works instead of Toxic, as it does 48.5% minimum to standard Claydol, and can 2HKO with prior damage and a good damage roll off.

    Spread:
    Salamence @ Black Belt
    EVs: 104 Atk, 252 SpA, 152 Spd
    Naive Nature
    -Toxic/HP Grass
    -Fire Blast/Hydro Pump
    -Brick Break
    -Dragon Claw/Rock Slide/HP Flying

    From what I explained above, this should be self-evident. Naive and 152 Spd EVs allow Mence to hit 301 Speed, giving it the jump on Jirachi, Celebi, and Standard DDTar even after it dances. Options are all explained above, and the last moveslot especially does a lot to change what Pokemon Mence should counter, as your team should cover whatever it misses. HP Grass and/or Hydro Pump are only if you have nothing else to beat Claydol (though since a bulky Water is a priority on teams these days you should be able to beat Claydol that way).
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2014
  19. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan

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    Still even with rock slide or hidden power flying, the damage you're doing is so small compared to a choice band set that there is no way you can pass it off as one against a player who has any idea what they are doing. I also never really found hydro pump all that necessary, as you said claydol takes 48.5% from hp grass, and it doesn't like taking toxic either. In general i've always found claydol to be underwhelming as a wall (it's still a great spinner though) Personally i also prefer flamethrower over fire blast, flamethrower with max SpA investment still does a ton to skarm, hera, celebi, etc, and i almost always miss at least one fire blast when im trying to 2hko something :p The pp advantage is not to be underestimated either. I tend to use fire blast on physical pokes that have it on their move set to not be walled by skarm, as in that case you only tend to use it 1-2 times per match.
  20. Jirachee

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    that's not how the bluff works

    you need to switch it in with sandstorm up. that way it takes damage from sandstorm without recovering the hp. normally the only salamence sets with no lefties are CBers, so the opponent would assume you're a cb set, then they proceed to switch in their skarm / pert / whatever, allowing you to predict it and hit it with the correct attack. obviously you need to do a bit of scouting before it can work, but mid game it can surprise an opponent who's playing too carefully
  21. Lord Ninjax

    Lord Ninjax

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    Yeah, what makes Claydol unique from a lot of walls (except maybe Swampert) is the fact that he straight up threatens the things he walls: Mence, Tar, and Aero with a potential 2HKO, forcing them to play really cautiously against it.

    Fire Blast I like for the better power and all, especially seeing that with Rock Slide or something Fire Blast becomes your most powerful attack, and the accuracy's never really bothered me either. Flamethrower is cool and all, and can make an okay replacement to Fire Blast, but yeah the lack of power is annoying and for some reason it makes me think of WishMence.
  22. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan

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    But is the loss in health really worth it when most people will assume it's a dragon dancer anyway? especially when the switch ins to the dancers are far more consistent than to the banders (mid game i tend to be pretty weary about taking a cb hp flying on a water type) It just seems like it involves far too much prediction to be able to get that advantage for it to be worthwhile. Let's say you've pulled off the illusion, and you have the mence in on something that will switch, if they think it's a dancer, they're almost certainly going to bring in their water to keep it from setting up, if they think it's a bander you have to decide will they bring in skarm/ttar/metagross/gengar/etc predicting a specific move, or will they go for the safer but more damaging option and bring in their water. Once you've attacked (except for brick break on a ghost) you've revealed the set, and if you mispredict, it was all for nothing, and the advantage of bluffing cb is lost.

    As for claydol, it's lack of offense ironically is the reason i find it insufficient as a wall, without some pretty considerable investment, it's only a 3hko on ttar with eq, and the majority of salamence are not ohko'd by its ice beams. Meanwhile a lot of the things it is meant to wall can actually hit it pretty hard with their standard sets, hp bug on ttar is by no means exclusively for claydol, cb mence hits it hard, double edge from aero won't be taken lightly (and aero takes those icebeams relatively well) metagross hits it hard with mash, etc. With only a little bit and in some cases no prior damage, most of those pokes can muscle past a claydol switch in without much effort. The reason to use claydol is because it's a spinner that has stab psychic, and is itself immune to spikes and sand, making it fairly reliable in that role.

    Fire blast i guess is more of a personal preference thing, personally i just find flamethrower to be better because it still does enough to cripple the things it needs to cripple without the risk and with more pp. (both will always 2hko max spdef skarm with your evs) Especially if you're going to spam it. If you spam fire blast, it will miss eventually, and probably when you least want it to. If it's a secondary attack, like on a mostly physical flygon/mence/lax, that's fine but personally on a dedicated special attacker, i want something more reliable.
  23. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    One would think that if an opponent is sufficiently inattentive to fail to notice the presence or absence of Leftovers recovery, they are bad and should be defeatable anyway (or, alternately, would be sufficiently inattentive to fail to notice the damage difference). Rest of your argument against the bluff is valid, though.
  24. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan

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    Just so it's clear, i meant they would assume it was a dancer if your mixmence was holding lefties. My argument is that bluffing dance with lefties is superior to bluffing cb while holding the inferior black belt.
  25. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Ah, okay, I gotcha.

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