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Moltres (Analysis) [QC 0/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by The3DOstrich, Feb 14, 2011.

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  1. The3DOstrich

    The3DOstrich

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    [​IMG]

    Pokedex: Moltres

    Status: Done and ready for QC checks! Feedback is also appreciated.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------





    [Overview]
    • The phoenix is back and as good as, mabey even better, than ever.
    • Great base 125 SpA coupled with a respectable base 90 Spe, along with a nice special movepool to boot, making it a great sweeper.
    • Decent 90 / 90 / 85 defensive spread, as well as access to Roost makes it a great candidate for Toxic stalling.
    • Flame Charge and Agility can be used to outspeed faster threats.
    • Drought Ninetales makes Moltres a fantastic sun sweeper.
    • However, Solar Power Charizard gave him a run for his money this gen.
    • Horrible weakness to Stealth Rock, though its less widespread this gen. However, Rapid Spin support is greatly appreciated.
    • Weather changers and weather sweepers cause a massive problem.
    [SET]
    name: Special Sweeper
    move1: Fire Blast
    move2: Air Slash
    move3: Solarbeam / Hidden Power Grass
    move4: Roost
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Pressure
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Timid / Modest





    Set Comments
    • Drought Ninetales gave Moltres a great reason to be run under the sun.
    • Fire Blast is your main STAB move, as the sun give it a massive boost in power, allowing Moltres to severly dent anything that does not resit it. It also takes care of those bulky Steel types, like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Registeel.
    • Air Slash is for your Flying STAB, and the added flinch rate is always a plus. It also allows Moltres to slam all the Fighting-types running around.
    • Sloarbeam is Moltres' best way of slamming bulky Waters, such as Jellicent and Quagsire. The sunlight also allows for no charge time, giving Moltres the ability to abuse it. However, Hidden Power Grass hits Politoed and Tyranitar.
    • Roost is used in the last slot so Moltres can shrug off any accumulated damage, especially from Stealth Rock and Life Orb.
    Additional Comments
    • The evs set allow Moltres to reach max speed, while also letting him hit as hard as he can.
    • If not running Roost, Leftovers can be used as an item choice for continuous HP recovery, however, Life Orb is needed for Moltres to score as many KOs as possible.
    • Overheat, Heat Wave, or Flamethrower may all be used in slot one. The former offers much more power, especially with Sun, but usually forces Moltres to switch out afterwards. Heat Wave is a bit less powerful, but has more accuracy. Flamethrower may be the weakest move of the three, but the no miss rate and sun boost still let Moltres net a few KOs.
    • Flame Charge may be used in the last slot for Moltres to raise its speed, as pokemon like Terakion and Starmie can outspeed and easily KO you.
    • Hidden Power Ice is an option over Roost if you want to hit Landorus and Gliscor. Alternatively, Hidden Power Electric can be opted to hit most bulky Waters as well as Gyarados. However, you lose the ability to hit Water / Ground-types.
    Teammates & Counters
    • Drought Ninetales is esestial if running Solarbeam.
    • SleepTalk Gyarados with special defense investment can come in on any of Moltres' attacks, and either Rest or attack straight off the bat with STAB Waterfall.
    • Weather changers, especially Politoed and Tyranitar, can come in on a predicted Fire Blast or Solarbeam and either attack or switch out respectively.
    • Rapid Spin support is absoulutely crucial for Moltres, as it can't afford to lose half of its health on the switch in.
    • Donphan and Forretress do a great job at this, as they not only can blow away entry hazards, they can both set them up as well. They can also come in on any Rock attacks aimed at Moltres, while he can take any Grass and Ice attacks aimed at Donphan, as well as any Fire or Ground attacks aimed at Forretress.
    • If not running Rapid Spin, a Magic Mirror user could be used instead. Espeon makes a better choice than Xatu, as it shares Moltres' Electric and Rock weaknesses.
    • If not carrying Roost, Moltres appreciates Wish support to heal off any Life Orb or Stealth Rock damage. Jirachi does a great job at this, as it not only has a high base HP stat to abuse Wish, but attracts Fire and Ground attacks, which Moltres can safely switch in on.
    • Tangrowth and Venasaur both creat great type synergy with Moltres, as they can not only abuse the sunlight, but they both can take any Electric or Water attacks aimed at the phoenix. Moltres in turn can take most Ice as well as all Fire attacks aimed at the duo.
    [SET]
    name: Choiced Phoenix
    move1: Overheat / Fire Blast
    move2: Air Slash
    move3: Hiddden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice
    move4: U-Turn / Roost
    item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
    ability: Pressure
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Modest / Timid





    Set Comments
    • Choiced Moltres is used so Moltres may hit as hard as it can and as fast as it can.
    • Choice Scarf is used with a Modest nature so Moltres can dish out an optimum amount of damage while outspeeding a vast majority of threats, while Choice Specs can be used with a Timid nature so Moltres can still pack a punch with max speed.
    • Overheat is Moltres' most powerful STAB move, and is used to get rid of bulky Steel types like Ferrothorn. Even though Moltres will probably be switching out anyway as its locked into one move, if you feel Overheat's SpA drop unappealing, Fire Blast may be used.
    • Air Slash is Moltres' Flting STAB, and hits the likes of Conkeldurr and Venasaur alike. The flinch chance means Moltres could possibly hax an opponent to the point of being KO'd.
    • The third choice depends on what you want Moltres to hit. Hidden Power Grass slams Bulky waters, while Hidden Power Ice hits Landorus, Gliscor, and Dragon-types who think they can come in on your Fighting STAB.
    • The last slot is somewhat of a filler, but a help to Moltres nonetheless. U-Turn helps you make a quick escape from a bad switch in or can be used to flee from Wobbufett. However, Roost can be used instead, as Moltres will usually be switching out and cannot afford to take Stealth Rock damage.
    Additional Comments
    • Not much to say, as Moltres does not have too much else to utilize.
    • The natures may be switched around, meaning Modest for Specs and Timid for Scarf to allow Moltres to be as powerful or fast as it can respectively.
    • Either Heat Wave or Flamethrower may be used in slot ones if you want more accurate options.
    • Solarbeam is an option if running Choiced Moltres alongside Drought Ninetales.
    • Hidden Power Electric may once aggain be used in slot three to hit Gyarados, though you lose the ability to hit Quagsire and friends.

    Teammates & Counters
    • Anything that resists the move Moltres is locked into always forces a switch-out.
    • If running Hidden Power Ice, Kabutops can come in on any of your moves (though it takes quite alot form Specs Fire Blast) and either Rain Dance or Swords Dance on the switch.
    • Weather changers still cause a problem, as Tyranitar can come in on any of your moves, bar Hidden Power Grass and Dragon Dance on the switch or attack with STAB Stone Edge.
    • Rapid Spin support is once again necessary for a healthy Moltres; Donphan and Forretress can blow away hazards as well as set them up. They also share a great type synergy with Moltres, as explained in the set above. Ferrothorn is another pokemon who can easily set up entry hazards and Leech Seed support. It can also take all Electric, Water, and Rock attacks Moltres may lure, while he in turn can take Fire and Fighting attacks Ferrothorn may lure.
    • Drought Ninetales may be used to buff up Fire Blast's power, while also letting Moltres using Solarbeam.
    [SET]
    name: SubRoost (Defensive)
    move1: Substitute
    move2: Roost
    move3: Toxic / Roar
    move4: Flamethrower / Sky Drop
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Pressure
    evs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 Spe
    nature: Bold / Impish





    Set Comments
    • With access to instant recovery, Moltres can easily run a stall / phazer set.
    • Moltres' ability, Pressure, makes this set a great PP staller.
    • Substitute is the main move of the set, as Moltres' reasonable bulk allows it to saty around longer.
    • Roost is so Moltres can heal off any Sub damage.
    • Toxic can be used to cripple your opponent, allowing you to stall them out with Roost and subbing when necessary.
    • However, Roar is a good option if your running entry hazard support, especially Toxic Spikes.
    • The last slot all depends on what you want Moltres to do. Flamethrower is the superior choice, as it allows Moltres to hit Steel types who are unaffected by Toxic.
    • However, Sky Drop can be used a a method of stall so Toxic damage may pile up, rendering the opponent useless for one turn, while also hitting Ferrothorn neutrally. If using Sky Drop, however, the nature should be changed to Impish.
    • 248 HP evs allow Moltres to successfully switch into Stealth Rock three times, while 112 speed evs allow him to outspeed a Jolly Tyranitar.
    Additional Comments

    • Fire Blast may be used in slot four for more damage. However, low PP and accuracy make Flamethrower the better option.
    • Will-O-Wsip may be used to cripple physical sweepers and Steels and allow Moltres to fill a dual status role.
    • Air Slash may be used due to the flinch rate, allowing Moltres to watch its opponent take Toxic damage without retaliation.
    Teammates & Counters
    • Moltres once again needs Rapid Spin support.
    • Donphan and Forretress do a good job at this for the same reasons above.
    • Steels wall Moltres who carry both Sky Drop and Toxic, such as Jirachi and Registeel, and can force a switch.
    • Mischevious Heart users are problematic, especially Thundurus, who can attack with STAB Electric-type attacks, Taunt to prevent Substitute or Roost, or set up a Nasty Plot on the switch.
    • Pairs well with pokemon who can pick off weaker foes.
    • Scrafty and Krookadile with Moxie work well, as they can KO Toxic damaged foes, activating their ability. Moltres can also take Fighting attacks aimed at the two, as well as any Grass and Bug moves aimed at Krookodile. The two in turn can take any Rock moves aimed at Moltres, as well as any Electric moves in the case of Krookodile.
    [SET]
    name: SubRoost (Offensive)
    move1: Substitute
    move2: Roost
    move3: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move4: Air Slash / Hidden Power Grass
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Pressure
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    nature: Timid / Modest





    Set Comments
    • Combines Moltres' ability to sweep and stall.
    • Substitute and Roost combined with Pressure makes this set fore many switches.
    • Fire Blast is your primary STAB option, as it nets Moltres far more KOs.
    • However, Flamethrower provides better accuracy and higher PP.
    • Air Slash is Moltres' secondary STAB choice, and hits all the Fighting-types crawling around.
    • Hidden Power Grass can be used to slam bulky Waters, like Jellicent and Quagsire.
    • A Timid nature is preffered, as Moltres should want to set up Substitutes and Roost as fast as it can. Modest, however, provides more power.
    • Life Orb is used to buff up your attacks, and any recoil can be healed off by Roost.
    • Leftovers allow Moltres to cope with residual damage.
    Additional Comments
    • Heat Wave may be used as a medium between Fire Blast and Flamethrower, as it has nice BP and a decnet accuracy.
    • Hidden Power Ice can slam pokemon like Gliscor, Landorus, and even Zapdos.
    • Hidden Power Fighting can be used for Heatran, but finds little use outside of that.
    Teammates & Counters
    • Three words: Rapid Spin support. Once again, Donphan, Forretress, and Hitmontop do a nice job at this.
    • Forretress can also set up Toxic Spikes, which really aids Moltres' ability to sweep. Toxic damage, combined with Pressure and Roost allows this set to effectively deal with most of its counters, such as non-scarfed Tyranitar, making it a necessity.
    • Heatran causes a great problem for this set, so packing a Water-type to deal with him is a good idea.
    • Crocune can easily wall Heatran, as it can set up Calm Minds and Rest up if afflicted by a burn.
    • Tyranitar easily takes Moltres' moves bar Hidden Power Grass, and Scarf variants can outspeed Moltres and break its sub with Stone Edge, forcing the switch. The sandstorm support also takes its toll on Moltres, as it will be forced to Roost more often due to Sandstorm recoil plus Life Orb.
    • Ferrothorn can come in on a choiced Ston Edge and either Leech Seed on the switch or set up Spikes. He also covers Moltres' weaknesses perfectly, and the Spikes support allow Moltres to KO foes with greater ease. Plus, Moltres, Suicune, and Ferrothorn make a fantastic Fire-Water-Grass core.
    • Bulky Waters can also cause a problem if Moltres does not carry Hidden Power Grass, especially specially defensive Jellicent, who can take your attacks, Recover at low health, and fire off STAB Surfs or Toxic Moltres.
    • Status really harms this set's effectiveness, as Toxic forces Moltres to switch due to the residual damage, while Thunder Wave means anything threat to Moltres will uaually outspeed it and take it out.
    • Thundurus and Tornadus can both accomplish this, as they can both Taunt any Substitutes and proceed to status Moltres. However, they must beware, as a LO STAB Fire Blast deals a hefty chunk to the genies.
    [SET]
    name: Boosting Sweper
    move1: Agility / Flame Charge
    move2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move3: Air Slash
    move4: Roost / Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Pressure
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Modest / Timid





    Set Comments
    • This set attempts to sweep while also remedying Moltres' only slightly above average Speed stat.
    • Agility can be used to boost Moltres speed to phenomenal levels, reaching 558 with a Modest nature and 612 with a Timid nature.
    • Flame Charge can be used so Moltres can deal damage while raising its speed. However, it Moltres needs to use it twice in order to recieve the same boost as agility, and since it's coming off his weaker attack stat with a hindering nature, it leaves Moltres susceptible to an attack.
    • Fire Blast and Flamethrower are your Fire STAB, former hits harder, latter has greater accuracy.
    • Air Slash is your Flying STAB and hits Fighting-types.
    • Roost is so Moltres can regain health lost by Life Orb.
    • However, Hidden Power Grass hits bulky Waters, while Hidden Power Ice hits Gliscor, Landorus, and Dragon-types.
    • Life Orb boosts your attacks. However, Leftovers can be used if you don't run Roost.
    • Modest nature is preffered, as since you'll already be boosting your Speed stat, Moltres will want to be hitting as hard as it can. However, a Timid nature allows him to outspeed a Jolly Excadrill under a Sandstorm after one Agility.
    Additional Comments
    • If using Flame Charge, the nature can be changed to Naive or Rash if you want to deal more damage.
    • Solarbeam can be used if running under the sun.
    • Hidden Power Fighting can be used for Tyranitar and Heatran.
    • Expert Belt can be used if not running Roost.
    Teammates & Counters
    • How many times can it be stressed: Rpid Spin support is necessary. Donphan, Forretress, and Hitmontop are the best choices.
    • Heatran walls this set to no end, especially TormenTran.
    • Once again, Crocune can be used to deal with him.
    • Ferrothorn's entry hazard support allows Moltres an easier time in sweeping.
    • Krookodile once again can deal with troubling special walls that bane Moltres. He can also destroy most spin blockers with STAB Dark-type attacks.
    • Sandstorm teams cause a problem, as Scarf Tyranitar can outspeed Moltres and KO him before he can set up.
    • Jolly Excadrill under the sandstorm can outspeed Modest variants even after an Agility, and can KO with Rock Slide.
    [Other Options]
    • Heat Wave is an option on all sets that have either Flamethrower or Fire Blast, as it serves as a medium for the two.
    • Expert Belt may be used on the sweeper sets to bluff a choice item, allowing Moltres to score surprise KOs.
    • Moltres can run a dual status consisting of Will-O-Wisp and Toxic, as Pressure and Roost allow it to stall out even the bulkiest of walls or cripple physical sweepers.
    • Tailwind may be ued on the agility to support the whj]ole team, though it only lasts three turns.
    • Protect can be used on the SubRoost set to either scout or stall.
    • Moltres learns Ancientpower and can slam opposing Moltres, Charizard, and Volcanora, as well as score a possible +1 on all it's stats. However, it finds no use outside of this.
    • Safeguard is an option of the defensive SubRoost set if you fear being out stalled by Toxic.
    [Checks and Counters]
    • SleepTalk Gyarados and Crocune can cause a huge amount of trouble to Moltres, as they can easily come in on your hits, Rest if necessary, and possibly Sleep Talk a STAB Water move.
    • Tentacruel gives trouble to most Moltres, as specially defensive variants only need to fear Air Slash, which fails to 2HKO. Tentacruel can then retaliate with a STAB Surf. The ability to absorb Toxic Spikes also
    • Heatran is an immense problem for Moltres, as it walls all of his moves and can set up a Substitute on the switch.
    • Blissey and Chansey do a fine job at walling Moltres, as they can shrug off any special moves, status Moltres, Softboil up and switch out to rid themselves of status.
    • Scarfed Tyranitar is a huge threat, as it outspeeds Moltres (bar ones with an Agility boost or a Scarfer) and can decimae Moltres with STAB Stone Edge.
    • Kingdra does a resonable job at walling Moltres, as it can come in on a Fire Blast, Dragon ance up, and KO with Waterfall.
    • Bulky Waters, like Jellicent and Vaporeon easily wall Moltres who do not carry Hidden Power Grass or Solarbeam, and can status on the switch or attack with STAB Water-type attacks.
    • Weather changers in general cause a problem for Moltres, as Sandstorm users usually pack an Excadrill who will KO Moltres with Rock Slide, while Rain teams halve the power of Moltres' Fire STAB and can easily KO him with their Rain boosted STAB Water attacks.
    [Dream World]
    • Moltres recieves the ability Flame Body through Dream World.
    • Its a rather useless ability, as most physical moves used against Moltres will be Rock type moves. However, it could be used on the sweeper variants, as one misprediction could seriously cripple a physical sweeper.
    • However, the defensive variants prefer Pressure, as it allows for greater stalling.
  2. Omicron

    Omicron
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    no need to post a link to the original thread if there is no analysis written.
  3. Dr. Alpha

    Dr. Alpha

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    I'd remove Solar Beam on the Sun Sweeper set. It's very tempting in sunshine to run Solar Beam to royally screw over Water types and such, but experience with Sun teams says that Tyranitar and Politoad jumping in ruins Solar Beam users greatly.

    Just saiyen.
  4. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    I have nothing but respect for Moltres, but I'm a little suprised it gets an OU analysis this generation. Stealth Rock is not any rarer (it really isn't), and that right there already puts it on the bench. Not only that, Moltres gained very little (not even a nice ability) to help with its problems. At least they don't affect its ability to hit hard in the first place. I'm just not convinced it will do much with the new threats running around.

    If it stays, then I think the Choice Specs/Scarf should be in front using the moves above along with Overheat and U-Turn. Lots of others can find time to Roost. Moltres can, but with so many sweepers with 400+ Attack, even the type-cut for the turn won't be enough.
  5. Venser

    Venser

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    Yeah, this seems especially outclassed by Charizard.
  6. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    *Not outclassed by Charizard because Charizard sucks*

    Anyways... Moltres' best set in OU has been and always will be a SubRoost set. The other sets... well she's outclassed by Heatran and (FINE) Charizard as a sweeper. Here's the set:

    Moltres @ Leftovers
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 Spe
    Nature: Bold
    -Substitute
    -Roost
    -Toxic / Roar
    -Flamethrower

    What makes Moltres so good as a SubRoost staller is the fact that she isn't walled by Steels, since they eat a Flamethrower to the face. While it might seem Heatran walls you, if it lacks Taunt or Roar, it is actually the one being walled and stalled out of PP with Pressure. Moltres does especially well with all the Nattorei/Ferrothorns running around, you pretty much get a free switch-in as long as you don't get in on Thunder Wave or Leech Seed and laugh at them. 112 Speed EVs lets you outspeed Jolly Tyranitar and all those slow Gliscors running around.
  7. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    Yeah, I agree with the above - as a sweeper there is basically no reason to use Moltres over Zard in Sun, or Volcarona outside of it given it's use of BD. Very dubious as to whether the offensive sets should get analyses.

    The set Shrang posted I'm admittedly unfamiliar with, but it seems to me that last Gen Zapdos heavily outclassed it in OU in a very similar role, so is there anything that makes it viable over the other Legendary Bird this gen? I'm not saying this set doesn't deserve an analysis, but at the very least it surely needs to make very clear the benefits of using it over Zappy.
  8. The3DOstrich

    The3DOstrich

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    Played around with this, works great, added. I added Sky Drop as an option for increased stalling capability, as it allows Toxic damage to really pile up, as well as rendering the opponent useless for a turn.
  9. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    You actually slashed Flamethrower......?

    Sky Drop is a terrible move. It is basicially a weaker Fly that freezes your opponent for the first turn. Then they take meager damage from its weaker attack stat (that also uses a hindering nature). They see the move coming and will know what your going to do, rendering the SubRoost strategy useless. Protect is a better option, but you need the slots for the other moves which are essential to the set.

    I'm suspicious about SubRoost being Moltres' best set (or above the LO or Choice) due to Stealth Rock eating up half your health, cutting your chance of pulling off the strategy successfully. Obviously, you have to get rid of the entry hazard, but even then, I can't see it doing much now. I'm going to try to find time to test the set out.
  10. TorchicBlaziken

    TorchicBlaziken

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    mive4

    Ohohoho, why not we correct ourselves?
  11. Meru

    Meru
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    Why not a late game Agility+LO3attacks set? The only threatening priorities are E-speed and Aqua Jet and Timid Moltres outspeeds even Jolly Dory in the sand with an Agility.
  12. The3DOstrich

    The3DOstrich

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    Posting to say that this is done and ready for QC checks.
  13. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    As the person who wrote up the UU Offensive SubRoost Moltres last gen, I'm going to say it NEEDS TOXIC SPIKES. It is fairly ordinary without it. You can't get past your checks without it. With Toxic Spikes, you have a decent chance to stall out Tyranitar (Stall Stone Edge out of PP) and other bulky Waters, while continuing to sweep.
  14. The3DOstrich

    The3DOstrich

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    Toxic Spikes have been added, thanks for pointing that out.
  15. wilson46

    wilson46
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    I don't see much of a difference between the Sun Sweeper set and The Firebird Sweep set, other than the fact that the Sun Sweeper relies on sun being up and using Solarbeam to aid its sweep. Why don't you just slash HP Grass with Solarbeam and make a mention of its use outside of sun, renaming the set to 'LO Sweeper' or something. Just my 2 cents.
  16. Omicron

    Omicron
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    I am pretty sure you don't need a Teammates and Counters section for every set, just a team options and counters section at the end of the analysis.
  17. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Personally, I think the boosting sweeper should be the first set on the list due to its usability and freedom to switch attacks. Speaking of the offensive, I personally think that the Boosting Sweeper and the Offensive Firebird should be merged just because they're a bit similar. Flame Charge should be slashed next to a non-STAB move, or put in the additional comments to avoid too many slashes.
  18. am zane ok.

    am zane ok.

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    I like Hidden Power Electric. It gives a chance to stay in on Flying-types who think that I'm using Hidden Power Grass. I mean, after all, Hidden Power Grass only hits things like Omastar, Kabutops, and Quagsire (all of which are pretty rare) for more damage.

    You forgot a space before "Hidden Power Grass" on the Boosting Sweeper.

    I don't believe Heat Wave should EVER be an option. Unless that 5 additional BP is enough to make a certain vital OHKO, it is always (in Singles) an inferior option to Flamethrower. Missing an attack with offensive Moltres, who has a crippling weakness to Rock-type attacks, can be life or death in some cases. It's just isn't worth the accuracy drop, unless you go all the way with Fire Blast, which is indeed significantly stronger.

    I agree with merging Firebird with Sun Sweeper. Actually, it's probably best to rid this analysis of Sun Sweeper at all. ALL of the sets benefit from Sunlight support, and Solarbeam as an alternative to Hidden Power should be mentioned simply in Additional Comments, or Other Options instead. This is just in my opinion, anyways, but I don't believe they play all that differently.

    Fly is an option over Sky Drop on the stalling set. While Fly may be hit by Hurricane (which is not all that common), it has 8 (?) additional PP and 30 more BP. This makes it the superior option in some cases, regardless of the miniscule 5 accuracy drop (which the stall set can handle, considering it has the defensive EVs to take a hit). However, Sky Drop may be useful for its ability to prevent a set up sweeper from using a boosting move, laying down hazards, or switching, which can sometimes be critical.

    Dugtrio makes a good partner, as it may switch in on weaker Rock-type attacks, or any Electric-type attack. It can also eliminate the threat of opposing Tyranitar very easily with its trapping ability and STAB Earth Quake. (Hooray for advocating my own analysis' Pokémon.)

    But besides that and a few random typos, this is a very thorough and extensive analysis. Good job!

    -Zane
  19. Cherub Agent

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    The first set is practically identical to the one called "the firebird sweep". Just mention that if sun isn't present, run HP Grass over Solarbeam. HP Grass mabye ought to be the primary option anyway, since once TTar or Politoed switch in, you're screwed.
  20. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

    Joined:
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    Solarbeam isn't a bad option at all. If you see Tar / Poli in team preview, just dont use it until they are dead... simple as that. 120 Base Power Grass with no charge is much better than... 70 Base Power Grass. Team preview practically eliminates the notion that Solarbeam is "bad." Inconvenient is a better word.
  21. am zane ok.

    am zane ok.

    Joined:
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    SOMEBODY THINKS THE WAY I DO. +1. c:

    -Zane
  22. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

    Joined:
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    No, what's bad is turning your Moltres into a fire mono-attacker until you figure out a way to remove TTar/Poli. Making Moltres even weaker to Tyranitar, its most common and arguably best counter, is not a wise plan. Moreover, if you're running a sun team, you're going to want to take every opportunity you can to wear down TTar or Poli by smacking them on the switch; Moltres is bait for both, and HP Grass dents them for ~30-55%, depending on the spread.

    Solarbeam is a win-more move. It's not turning a close match into a win, it's just letting you do a Really Large Amount Of Damage as you sweep or turning a game-winning half-sweep that wrecks your opponent's team into a clean sweep by not leaving anything for your CB priority user to clean up. That's not giving you more wins, just making the same wins you already would have had more spectacular. That can be entertaining, but it's a common trap and it's not worth losing more games to do it.

    FB/Sub/Roost/Solarbeam Moltres cannot do anything at all to any Tyranitar or Politoed. As long as your opponent has either of those, you cannot safely use that Moltres at all, since even a double-switch leaves you at a disadvantage, due to the weather change.


    Anyway. Quagsire is not any sort of counter to Moltres, because it's a physical wall with a really specialized schtick (stopping set-up sweepers after they've set up) so it can't really afford SpD investment. Moltres 3HKOs Quagsire with Fire Blast. I am not sure why you mention it here at all.

    As for real counters, Tentacruel gives all of these sets fits. Air Slash/Solarbeam will only 4HKO specially-invested Cruels, and it's immune to Toxic to boot. Rotom-W can take a HP Grass (~60% on standard spreads, ~70% on choice sets) and OHKO back even defensive spreads with Hydro Pump or specs Thunderbolt, and OHKO any other spread with just plain old Thunderbolt. Gyarados now mostly runs bulky sets that shrug off Fire Blast and HP Grass; only Air Slash (3HKO for most sets) and HP Electric (1-2HKO) do significant damage.

    If you're not running HP Grass or HP Electric, the list of bulky water counters goes around the block. Besides Vaporeon and Jellicent (but not Quagsire), you could mention Slowbro, Starmie, and Omastar as significant threats.
  23. am zane ok.

    am zane ok.

    Joined:
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    Dugtrio says hiiiiiiiiiiii.

    Actually, so does Toxic Spikes support in general...

    -Zane

    Edit: Actually, Virizion does pretty well against the two of them, as well...
  24. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

    Joined:
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    Yes, yes, they have counters. (And Dugtrio? Seriously? It doesn't threaten Politoed and it has serious trouble switching into Boah or Mixtar. There are TTar sets other than CB/CS Tar, and most of them are special or mixed sets.)

    But you're not just talking about TTar or Politoed switching into Moltres. As long as they're in the match, some amount of the time you're going to be switching Moltres into sand/rain (or not switching Moltres in at all, in which case it's totally useless), unless you're completely dominating the match already (in which case Solarbeam is completely unnecessary because you've already won). Solarbeam is a dead moveslot under those circumstances.

    Solarbeam renders Moltres a dead teamslot in weather versus weather until you win the weather war. What's more, this discussion ends up going round and round every single time someone proposes a sun sweeper set with Solarbeam, and every single time the consensus is HP Grass in the moveset and Solarbeam in OO, most recently in Ninetails's own analysis thread. How is Moltres any different?
  25. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

    Joined:
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    Five sets for Moltres. That doesn't sound right.

    I haven't seen the thread for a bit, I may have missed some changes that have been already made or proposed.

    First, is it necessary for two SubRoost sets to be up there? Zapdos never had two, so Moltres (being slower and having twice the Stealth Rock weakness, shouldn't either. Combine them or have the better variation (I assume Defensive) spotlighted with the second mentioned as an alternate (or also included some extra slashes).

    I'm also questioning the inclusion of the boosting sweeper as its own set because it is too similar to the first one. Frankly, Moltres is still getting little use from what I see and an extra set like that isn't needed when you can just mention it in a similar set or Other Options. If it has been found useful, then combining it with the first is preferred though.
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