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Moltres (Post-Tornadus-T Update)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by alexwolf, Apr 6, 2013.

  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    Code:
    [I]To-Do List:
    [/I]
    [LIST]
    [*]Remove Genesect and Tornadus-T mentions [X]
    [/LIST]
    
    [LIST]
    [*]Stress Tornadus as a partner for the Specs set [X]
    [/LIST]
    
    [LIST]
    [*]Reword the beginning of the overview [X[
    [/LIST]
    
    [LIST]
    [*]Add some general info whenever needed [X]
    [/LIST]
    
    [LIST]
    [*]Remove Roost and Sharp Beak from the Set Comments of the Specs set and move them to AC [X]
    [/LIST]
    
    [LIST]
    [*]Remove some irrelevant calcs from the AC of the Specs set [X]
    [/LIST]
    
    [LIST]
    [*]Add the Agility set [X]
    [/LIST]
    
    [LIST]
    [*]Add Jolteon as a check in c&c [X]
    [/LIST]
    
    [LIST]
    [*]Add unreleased ability section [X]
    [/LIST]
    
    I won't write this from scratch as many things mentioned are very relevant. I will replace the Tornadus-T mentions with Torandus and explain how well Moltres interacts with it. Other than that, not many things need to be changed, as nothing else has changed for Moltres, aside from the fact that Sheer Force Landorus is getting a ton of attention and Moltres is one of the best counters to it as long as SR is off the field.

    In the current metagame, the best use i found for Moltres is on a double Hurricane spam combo with Tornadus. Even if Tornadus is inferior to Tornadus-T, which may lead to the impression that Tornadus + Moltres will be an inferior combo to Tornadus-T + Moltres, this is not necessarily true, as Tornadus has one very important tool that Tornadus-T didn't: priority Tailwind. At late-game, when Moltres's counters are gone or weakened, Tornadus can set up Tailwind before it dies, giving to Moltres three turns to spam Hurricane, which under the right conditions equals to three KOs, thanks to Hurricane's absurd power and excellent neutral coverage. For anyone doubting Moltres's effectiveness here are some logs that display how it is played and what it can do:

    Specs logs (open)
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou13792414
    (Moltres cleans the remaining three Pokemon after Tornadus sets up Tailwind and sacrifices itself)

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou13793564
    (Moltres shields my team from Landorus and proves to be useful even when Politoed dies and sun is up)

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou13882418
    (Moltres shields my team from Scizor, gets one kill, and generally puts big pressure to the opponent)

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou13883817
    (Moltres getting an end game sweep, KOing the last three Pokemon in the opponent's team after Tornadus uses Tailwind and sacrifices itself)


    I am adding the Agility set into the analysis, as after testing it i found it to be very viable. For now i will put it after Specs, but this might change in the near future. Here are some logs of it in action (i will collect more in the proccess):

    Agility logs (open)
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-14352867
    [Moltres sweeps a team with 5 mons left, and in this game you can see how Roost helps Moltres extend its sweep)

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-14271753
    (Kinda haxy match, but it still shows how bad Agility Moltres fucks sun teams)

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-14273675
    (Moltres sweeps half a team after setting up on a choice-locked Ice Punch Jirachi)

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-14392311
    (Not so good battle, but shows how Moltres can sweep offensive teams with little support)

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-14895237
    (Moltres sets up on Lucario, Roosts of the damage done by Extremespeed and then sweeps the remaining 5 Pokemon)


    Here are the analyses, the old one and the revamped, as well as the Agility set separately (removals with red and additions with blue) and the changes/additions will be in bold:

    [​IMG]

    Moltres

    [Overview]

    <p>In the past, Moltres was considered to be a bad Pokemon in OU. Losing 50% of its health from Stealth Rock, having a mediocre base 90 Speed, being weak to Electric-, Rock-, and Water-type moves, and being outclassed by various other Fire-types were all reasons why Moltres never saw any real use. However, Moltres got Hurricane in BW2, giving it a reason to be used. While it faces stiff competition with the tier's premier Hurricane user, Tornadus, Moltres has its own unique traits to distinguish it. These are the ability to act as a hard check to some dangerous offensive Pokemon in OU, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Volcarona, and Swords Dance Scizor, the ability to use an Agility set to attempt a late-game sweep, the ability to overcome Jirachi, Bronzong, Metagross, and OHKO Ferrothorn in rain, and the ability to easily switch into many Pokemon that sun teams carry and punch holes with a stupidly strong Fire Blast. Even if those traits are not enough for Moltres to escape from the shadow of Tornadus and its other flaws, Moltres and Tornadus form a destructive Hurricane combo when combined together, where Moltres weakens the Pokemon that prevent Tornadus from cleaning up late-game or vice-versa, with Tornadus sacrificing itself after using priority Tailwind to allow Moltres to sweep. In short, despite needing a ton of support to work, Moltres has two definite niches in OU: the ability to work as a wallbreaking partner for Tornadus and the ability to act as a powerful Agility sweeper under rain.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
    move 4: U-turn
    item: Choice Specs
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Moltres is tied with Tornadus for the most powerful Hurricane in OU, and with Choice Specs attached its power is phenomenal. To give an example of Moltres's power, offensive Heatran is always 2HKOed by Hurricane after Stealth Rock alone. In addition, Moltres's typing allows it to check some dangerous offensive threats that no other Hurricane user in OU can, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Lucario, and Volcarona. As with any Hurricane user, Moltres needs Drizzle support from Politoed to function properly. However, unlike most Hurricane users, Moltres has the ability to perform admirably under sun, as nothing except Heatran can take its Fire Blast; to make matters worse for opposing sun teams, Moltres gets many opportunities to switch in against Pokemon commonly found on sun teams, including Ninetales, Heatran, Volcarona, Xatu, and Venusaur. Hurricane is the move Moltres should be using most of the time, as it 2HKOes every Pokemon that doesn't resist it not named Blissey or Chansey. Under rain, Fire Blast will at worst 2HKO every Steel-type that can tank Hurricane, such as Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross, and will also OHKO Ferrothorn, which is a boon for rain teams that lack a way to quickly dispose of it. Fire Blast is also Moltres's main weapon against sun teams, as Moltres can find many opportunities to switch in and proceed to fire off sun-boosted STAB Fire Blasts. Hidden Power Ground OHKOes any Heatran while 2HKOing any Choice Tyranitar, but fails to do any significant damage to specially defensive variants of the latter. Hidden Power Fighting is used to 2HKO any Tyranitar and Heatran; offensive Heatran and Choice Scarf Tyranitar are even OHKOed after Stealth Rock. Hidden Power Ground is the superior move for the third slot, as it OHKOes its main target, Heatran, and U-turn deals with Tyranitar pretty well anyway. U-turn allows Moltres to scout for switch-ins from its counters while also doing a fair bit of damage to Tyranitar as mentioned previously.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Modest is the primary nature because the extra power gives Moltres certain OHKOs and 2HKOs. Specifically:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 SpD Heatran: 45.82 - 54.17%, sure 2HKO after Stealth Rock</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 49.49 - 58.19%, 67.97% chance to 2HKO</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs +2 SpD 0 HP Volcarona: 97.1 - 114.46%, 81.25% chance to OHKO</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 HP Garchomp: 100 - 118.15%</li>
    <li>Fire Blast (rain) vs 252 / 224+ Jirachi: 57.92 - 68.31%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Choice Specs is the optimum item choice because of the huge power it provides and because Moltres should be using Hurricane most of the time anyway. The Speed EVs enable Moltres to outspeed Timid Heatran and OHKO it with Hidden Power Ground before it gets a chance to set up Stealth Rock. The 4 leftover EVs are thrown into Defense to better take priority. By using a Timid nature, Moltres gains the advantage of outspeeding max Speed Jolly Mamoswine, any Rotom-W without a Choice Scarf, Modest Landorus, Modest Kyurem, neutral natured Kyurem-B, Adamant Haxorus, and Modest Hydreigon.</p>

    <p>Sleep Talk is a viable option, as Moltres can easily switch into Breloom, Venusaur, and Amoonguss. Hidden Power Grass allows Moltres to OHKO offensive Rotom-W, 2HKO specially defensive Rotom-W, and 2HKO any Choice Tyranitar after Stealth Rock. Sharp Beak is an option if one prefers the freedom to change moves and the ability to use Roost, which is very handy in some situations. When using Sharp Beak, U-turn should be dropped to make room for Roost. Life Orb can be used over Sharp Beak if you find that any move other than Hurricane lacks power, but you will find yourself wanting to use Roost all the time because of the recoil, Stealth Rock, and other damage and thus having little time to actually attack, which contradicts the purpose of the set.</p>

    <p>Politoed is mandatory as a teammate to make Moltres's Hurricane 100% accurate. A way to get rid of Stealth Rock is also obligatory when using Moltres, which means using either Rapid Spin or Magic Bounce support. Starmie and Tentacruel are spinners that work the best with Moltres and are the best spinners for rain teams too. Starmie is usually the better option for more offensive teams, and can revenge kill some Pokemon that outspeed and OHKO Moltres, such as Terrakion, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo, while Tentacruel is preferable on more balanced teams, and still deals with many Pokemon that trouble Moltres, such as Keldeo, Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Politoed. In return, Moltres can take Ground-, Bug-, and Grass-type attacks aimed at Starmie and Tentacruel and beat Pokemon that they hate facing, such as Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Amoonguss. Even Custap Berry Forretress with Rapid Spin can be used on offensive rain teams, as keeping Stealth Rock off the field for even the first few turns can give Moltres enough time to do its job. As for Magic Bounce users, neither Espeon nor Xatu work particularly well with Moltres in rain teams, but they are both options if Moltres is used on offensive VoltTurn teams, the only team archetype in which the Magic Bounce Pokemon will manage to keep Stealth Rock off the field for any period of time. Tornadus is the best offensive partner for Moltres, and the combination of the two is the main reason to use Choice Specs Moltres in OU. Tornadus forms a dual Hurricane combo with Moltres and together they break down Flying-type resists and, in general, wear down each other's counters. Life Orb Tornadus with Superpower and Tailwind is the best variant to use alongside Moltres, as it can reliably beat Blissey, Chansey, Heatran, and Tyranitar, while Moltres weakens Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos, as well as handling Jirachi, Bronzong, Scizor, Skarmory, and sun teams, occasionally leading to a late-game sweep of either Hurricane user. Additionally, Tornadus can use Tailwind before going down, giving Moltres three turns to wreck havoc with Hurricane and often allowing it to clean weakened teams. Finally, both Tornadus and Moltres can bring each other in safely with U-turn against Pokemon that trouble one of the two but fear the other.</p>

    <p>There are also some more optional partners for Moltres. Dugtrio is of great help to Moltres, as it can safely trap and eliminate Heatran and Tyranitar through Moltres's U-turn, winning the weather war and removing some of Moltres's counters. Terrakion, especially the Choice Band set, murders all of Moltres's checks and counters, making it a great teammate. Celebi has amazing defensive synergy with Moltres, checking Pokemon such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Calm Mind + Substitute Jirachi, and Starmie, while Moltres can get many free switch-ins via Celebi's U-turn against the many Steel- and Grass-types that Celebi attracts. Finally, specially defensive Jirachi can pass Wishes to Moltres with ease as they have excellent defensive synergy, helping Moltres with its longevity problem; it can also take Rock- and Dragon-type attacks aimed at Moltres.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Agility
    move 1: Agility
    move 2: Hurricane
    move 3: Fire Blast
    move 4: Roost / Hidden Power Ground
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Agility transforms Moltres into a fearsome sweeper under both rain and sun, which after a turn of setup outspeeds the entire OU metagame, including Chlorophyll Venusaur in sun. Thanks to its typing, Moltres can force out and set up on dangerous and common Pokemon, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Technician Breloom, and Scizor, meaning that setting up won't be very hard as long as Stealth Rock is off the field. Hurricane OHKOes every single offensive Pokemon that doesn't resist it after Stealth Rock and has great neutral coverage, with only nine Pokemon that resist it in OU. Fire Blast complements Hurricane perfectly, OHKOing even in rain some of the Pokemon that can take a Hurricane, such as Magnezone and Skarmory, and greatly damaging some of the rest, such as Jirachi and Metagross. It also gives Moltres a fearsome weapon against sun teams as well as a more accurate STAB move to use if neither rain nor sun are up. Fire Blast is also useful to OHKO Ferrothorn in rain, a quality that many rain teams struggle to find but really appreciate. Roost gives Moltres better survivability, allowing it to have better presence in early- and mid-game, and eases setup against Pokemon that Moltres walls, making any attempt of those Pokemon to stay in and wear Moltres down futile. Roost is also very useful in games where using Agility is not an option, either because Moltres and its teammates can't get past the opposing defensive core or because it is difficult for Moltres's team to keep Stealth Rock off the field, and allows Moltres to take the role of a wallbreaker and a check to problematic Pokemon. On the other hand, Hidden Power Ground forfeits all of those benefits to give Moltres better sweeping potential, as with it Moltres can OHKO offensive Heatran and deal 75% minimum to specially defensive variants, OHKO Jolteon after Stealth Rock most of the time, and hit Ninetales slightly harder and more reliably than Fire Blast.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Modest is the best nature for this set, as it allows Moltres to get a ton of important OHKOs, and Moltres already outspeeds every Pokemon in OU after an Agility. However, a Timid nature helps Moltres outspeed some dangerous threats without the need for an Agility boost, such as neutral natured Kyreum-B and Hydreigon, Jolly Mamoswine, and Modest Celebi. Hidden Power Fighting OHKOes Choice Scarf Tyranitar after Stealth Rock most of the time and 2HKOes every other variant, while also dealing good damage to Heatran. Hidden Power Grass is useful to 2HKO any Rotom-W, dealing 68% damage minimum to 232 HP variants, and OHKO Gastrodon with a layer of Spikes while hitting Tyranitar for decent damage as well.</p>

    <p>Politoed is a mandatory teammate, as Moltres is a dedicated rain sweeper. Dugtrio is the next best partner, clearing the way for Moltres to sweep by eliminating Tyranitar and Heatran, weakening Jirachi to Fire Blast's KO range, and helping Politoed win weather wars. Gothitelle is another trapper that Moltres enjoys having as a teammate, especially variants with Grass Knot, which can weaken or eliminate the two weather inducers that Moltres dislikes, Tyranitar and Hippowdon. Gothitelle also wears down the defensive Water-types that can tank one Hurricane from Moltres, and can cripple Chansey and Blissey with Trick. When using Moltres, serious measures against Stealth Rock must be taken. Starmie and Tentacruel are both excellent spinners for rain teams, with Starmie putting up big offensive pressure and Tentacruel being a better dedicated spinner. Custap Berry Forretress with Rapid Spin is another great teammate for Moltres, setting up entry hazards and preventing Stealth Rock from getting up the first few turns, making it easier for Moltres to switch in at the early stages of the game. Although rarely seen on rain teams, Xatu is an option for very fast-paced offensive teams with other U-turn or Volt Switch users and can prevent Stealth Rock from getting up for a limited amount of time, which is fine considering that the game shouldn't last very long anyway. Agility Moltres is best used on offensive rain teams that have good momentum and pace control, where it is easy to keep Stealth Rock off the field by constantly attacking with Pokemon that are difficult to wall, meaning that the spinner that accompanies Moltres won't have to get rid of Stealth Rock very often.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A defensive set utilizing Substitute and Roost alongside Flamethrower and Hurricane or Toxic is the most viable Moltres set not already listed. Thanks to Pressure, Moltres can easily PP stall moves from Pokemon that would otherwise hurt it badly by alternating between Substitute and Roost, such as Stone Edge from Tyranitar and Hydro Pump from Rotom-W and Choice Specs Politoed. Such a set should run 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96 Spe with a Timid nature. This gives Moltres enough Speed to outrun positive-natured base 70s, such as Breloom and Politoed, and places the rest of the EVs into HP and Special Defense because Moltres's typing is better suited to take special hits. However, this set can be walled and rendered useless by many common Pokemon, such as Roar Heatran, Hippowdon, Jirachi sets with Calm Mind or Thunder, and Tentacruel, and is checked by many other Pokemon, depending on the final move Moltres chooses to run. Its viability is also hurt pretty badly by Stealth Rock, as with Stealth Rock up it can't wall any of the threats that it otherwise could and has to spend all of its time using Roost. Substitute can be used with Life Orb on the offensive set when running Roost to take advantage of Pressure and stall out moves that could hurt Moltres, scout faster switch-ins, and ease prediction, but between Substitute, Life Orb recoil, and Stealth Rock damage, Moltres will rarely find time to attack or heal. Choice Scarf is an option on the offensive set to enable Moltres to act as a moderately powerful revenge killer, but it is outclassed by pretty much any other revenge killer in OU due to a huge Stealth Rock weakness and a mediocre Speed stat. Lastly, an Agility set with Fire Blast, SolarBeam, and Hidden Power Ground is a viable option in sun teams and can act as a decent cleaner late-game, but faces a lot of competition from better sun sweepers, such as Volcarona, Venusaur, and Victini, and thus is generally outclassed.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>The best way to deal with Moltres is Stealth Rock, as with it on the field Moltres can only switch in three times at best. If the Stealth Rock setter is paired with Pokemon such as Choice Band Tyranitar or Choice Scarf Gothitelle, Moltres will have an even harder time coming in, as the two spinners most commonly paired with Moltres&mdash;Starmie and Tentacruel&mdash;are in danger of getting trapped. As far as traditional counters go, Chansey and Blissey are the only surefire counters to Moltres. Tyranitar and Heatran work too, but they both get hurt pretty badly by the appropriate Hidden Power, and Heatran can't do any immediate damage back to Moltres. Rotom-W and Rotom-H, as well as Zapdos and Jirachi in rain, are all good checks, but are prone to getting worn down (the first two lack reliable recovery while Zapdos is weak to Stealth Rock) except for Jirachi, and will lose if a Hurricane confusion occurs or will get 2HKOed by Fire Blast in Jirachi's case. Everything faster than Moltres that can take a hit and OHKO back is an okay check, namely Choice Scarf Rotom-W, Jolteon, Thundurus-T, and Calm Mind Jirachi, as they can switch into Moltres once or twice and force it out. Finally, there are many offensive Pokemon that can revenge kill Moltres, including Keldeo, Latios, Starmie, and Terrakion, as long as Moltres hasn't used Agility.</p>

    [Unreleased]

    <p>Moltres gets Flame Body from the Dream World, a very useful ability that lets it burn physically based Pokemon that Moltres can easily switch into, such as Ferrothorn, Toxicroak, and Lucario, as well as U-turn users such as Scizor and Jirachi. Flame Body is almost always superior to Pressure, as Moltres only uses offensive sets that don't get any real benefit from Pressure.</p>

    Skeleton of Agility set (open)
    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Agility makes Moltres a fearsome sweeper under rain and even under sun. The fact that it can set-up on dangerous and common Pokemon such as Sheer Force Landorus and Swords Dance Breloom helps a lot
    • Hurricane OHKOes every single offensive Pokemon that doesn't resist it after SR
    • Fire Blast covers what Hurricane can't, Steel-types mainly, easily OHKOing Ferrothorn in rain. It also makes Moltres a menace under sun
    • Roost helps Moltres have better presence in early and mid game, while also allowing it to heal in the face of certain Pokemon (priority users that try to revenge kill Moltres for example)
    • Hidden Power Ground give coverage against Heatran, Jolteon, and Ninetales, while also allowing Moltres to 3HKO CBTar after SR

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Modest is the best nature as it gets a ton of OHKOes that Moltres needs and Moltres doesn't need the extra Speed as at +2 it already outspeeds everything commonly seen in OU. However, Timid helps Moltres outspeed some dangerous threats such as neutral Kyurem-B, Jolly Mamoswine, and neutral Hydreigon, so use it if your team has troubles with those Pokemon or if you have heavy hazard support and the extra power granted by Modest is not necessary
    • Hidden Power Fighting for Tyranitar mainly, but hits Heatran for good damage as well
    • Hidden Power Grass for Rotom-W and Gastrodon
    • Politoed is a must
    • Dugtrio is the next best partner, trapping Tyranitar and Heatran, as well as helping get Jirachi to Fire Blast's KO range
    • Gothitelle works as well, especially variants with Grass Knot, which eliminate or weaken the only weather inducers whose weather Moltres doesn't like, Hippowdon and Tyranitar, while also wearing down or killing bulky water-types that can survive one Hurricane
    • Use on offensive or bulky offense teams that have good momentum control, where it is easier to keep SR off the field for a few turns and every turn holds more value
    • Starmie, Tentacruel, Xatu, and Custap Berry Forretress are the best spinners / anti SR Pokemon for rain offense teams


    The analysis with the changes/additions highlighted (open)
    [Overview]

    <p>In the past, Moltres was considered to be a bad Pokemon in OU. Moltres was always a bad Pokemon to use in OU. Losing 50% of its health from Stealth Rock, having a mediocre 90 base Speed, being weak to Electric-, Rock-, and Water-type moves, and being outclassed by the Fire-types of OU were the main reasons that Moltres never saw any real use. However, Moltres got Hurricane in BW2, giving it a reason to be used in OU. While it faces stiff competition with the tier's prime Hurricane user, Tornadus, Moltres has its own unique traits to distinguish it. These traits are a much stronger Hurricane, the ability to act as a hard check to some dangerous offensive Pokemon in OU, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Volcarona, and Swords Dance Scizor, the ability to use an Agility set, the ability to overcome Jirachi, Bronzong, Metagross, and OHKO Ferrothorn in rain, and lastly, the ability to easily switch into many Pokemon that sun teams carry, and from there punch holes with a stupidly strong Fire Blast. Even if those traits are not enough for Moltres to escape from the shadow of Tornadus and its other flaws, Moltres and Tornadus form a destructive Hurricane combo when combined together, where Moltres weakens the Pokemon that prevent Tornadus from cleaning up late-game or vice-versa, with Tornadus sacrificing itself after using priority Tailwind to allow Moltres to sweep. In short, despite needing a ton of support to work, Moltres has two definite niches in OU: the ability to work as a wallbreaking partner for Tornadus and the ability to act as a powerful Agility sweeper under rain.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs Offensive
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
    move 4: U-turn
    item: Choice Specs
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Moltres is tied with Tornadus for the most powerful Hurricane in OU, and with Choice Specs attached its power is phenomenal. To give you an example of Moltres's power, offensive Heatran is always 2HKOed by Hurricane after just Stealth Rock. In addition, Moltres's typing allows it to check some dangerous offensive threats, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Lucario, and Volcarona, that no other Hurricane user in OU can do. As with any Hurricane user, Moltres needs Drizzle support from Politoed to function properly. However, unlike most Hurricane users, Moltres has the ability to perform admirably under sun as nothing except Heatran can take its Fire Blast; to make matters worse for opposing sun teams, Moltres gets many opportunities to switch in against Pokemon commonly found on sun teams, namely Ninetales, Heatran, Volcarona, Xatu, and Venusaur. Hurricane is the move Moltres should be using most of the time, as it 2HKOes every Pokemon not named Blissey or Chansey that doesn't resist it. Fire Blast will at worst 2HKO every Steel-type under rain that can tank Hurricane, such as Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross, and OHKOes Ferrothorn, which is a boon for rain teams, as many rain teams lack a way to quickly dispose of it. Fire Blast is also Moltres's main weapon against sun teams, as Moltres can find many opportunities to switch in against sun teams and proceed to fire off sun-boosted STAB Fire Blasts, pulling its weight even in sun. Hidden Power Ground OHKOes any Heatran, while 2HKOing any Choice Tyranitar, but fails to do any significant damage to specially defensive variants of the latter. Hidden Power Fighting is used to 2HKO any Tyranitar and Heatran; more specifically, offensive Heatran and Choice Scarf Tyranitar are always OHKOed after Stealth Rock. U-turn allows Moltres to scout for switch-ins from its counters, Chansey, Blissey, and Tyranitar, while also doing a fair bit of damage to Tyranitar. Roost gives Moltres the ability to heal off Stealth Rock damage and survive longer.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Modest is the primary nature because the extra power gives Moltres certain OHKOs and 2HKOs. Specifically:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 SpD Heatran: 45.82 - 54.17%, sure 2HKO after Stealth Rock</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 49.49 - 58.19%, 67.97% chance to 2HKO</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs +2 SpD 0 HP Volcarona: 97.1 - 114.46%, 81.25% chance to OHKO</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 SpD Dragonite: 96.9 - 114.24%</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 88.66 - 104.81%, 31.25% chance to OHKO</li>

    <li>Hurricane vs 4 HP Garchomp: 100 - 118.15%</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 252 HP Skarmory: 62.87 - 73.95%</li>
    <li>Fire Blast (rain) vs 252 / 224+ Jirachi: 57.92 - 68.31%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Choice Specs is the only item choice because of the huge power it provides and because Moltres should be using Hurricane most of the time anyway. The Speed EVs enable Moltres to outspeedTimid Politoed and Jolly Breloom, both of which are OHKOed by Hurricane. Timid Heatran and OHKO it with Hidden Power Ground before it gets a chance to set up Stealth Rock, while the 4 leftover EVs are thrown into Defense to better take priority. With 44 EVs in Special Defense Choice Scarf Genesect gets an Attack boost against Moltres and cannot OHKO with Thunderbolt, while Moltres OHKOes back with either STAB move. When using Hidden Power Ground with a Modest nature, running max Speed is an option to outrun Timid 252 Speed Heatran and Smeargle. By using a Timid nature Moltres has the advantage of outspeeding max Speed Jolly Mamoswine, any Rotom-W without a Choice Scarf, Modest Landorus, Modest Kyurem, neutral natured Kyurem-B, Adamant Haxorus, and Modest Hydreigon. With a Timid nature, Moltres should use this spread: 248 SpA / 44 SpD / 216 Spe. This spread gives it enough Speed to outrun Modest Hydreigon, 44 SpD EVs for Genesect, and places the rest of the EVs in Special Attack. Hidden Power Fighting is the superior third move because removing Tyranitar from the game is more vital to Moltres's success than removing Heatran. Hidden Power Ground is the superior move for the third slot as it OHKOes its main target, Heatran, and U-turn deals with Tyranitar pretty well anyway.</p>

    <p>Sleep Talk is a viable option as Moltres can easily switch into Breloom, Venusaur, and Amoonguss. Hidden Power Grass allows Moltres to OHKO offensive Rotom-W, 2HKO specially defensive Rotom-W, and 2HKO any Choiced Tyranitar after Stealth Rock. Sharp Beak is an option if one prefers the freedom to change moves and the ability to use Roost, which is very handy in some situations. When using Sharp Beak, drop U-turn to make room for Roost. Life Orb can be used over Sharp Beak if you find that any move other than Hurricane lacks power, but the Life Orb recoil, Stealth Rock damage, and any other damage that Moltres may receive will leave it wanting to use Roost all the time, having little time to actually attack, which contradicts the purpose of the set.</p>

    <p>Politoed is mandatory as a teammate, to make Moltres's Hurricane 100% accurate. A way to get rid of Stealth Rock is also obligatory when using Moltres, which means using either Rapid Spin or Magic Bounce support. Starmie and Tentacruel are the spinners that work the best with Moltres and are the best spinners for rain teams too; Starmie is usually the option for more offensive teams, and can revenge kill some Pokemon that outspeed and OHKO Moltres, such as Terrakion, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo, while Tentacruel is the option for more balanced teams, and still deals with many Pokemon that trouble Moltres such as Keldeo, Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Politoed. In turn, Moltres can take Ground-, Bug-, and Grass-type attacks aimed at Starmie and Tentacruel, and beat Pokemon that they hate facing such as Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Amoonguss. Even Custap Berry Forretress with Rapid Spin can be used on offensive rain teams, as even though Forretress is not a good spinner, keeping Stealth Rock off the field even for the first few turns that Forretress leads can give to Moltres enough time to do its job. As for Magic Bounce users, neither Espeon nor Xatu work particularly well with Moltres in rain teams, but they are both options if Moltres is used on offensive VoltTurn teams, the only team archetype in which the Magic Bounce Pokemon will manage to keep Stealth Rock off the field for any period of time. Tornadus is the best offensive partner for Moltres and the combination of the two is the main reason to use Choice Specs Moltres in OU. Tornadus forms a dual Hurricane combo with Moltres and together they break down Flying-type resists and, in general, can wear down each other's counters, . Life Orb Tornadus with Superpower and Tailwind Tornadus-T with Taunt is the best variant to use alongside Moltres, as it can reliably beat Blissey, Chansey, Heatran, and Tyranitar, while Moltres weakens Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos, as well as handling Jirachi, Bronzong, Scizor, Skarmory, and sun teams, occasionally leading to a late-game sweep of either Hurricane user. Additionally, Tornadus can use use Tailwind before going down, giving to Moltres three turns to wreck havoc with Hurricane, often allowing it to clean weakened teams. Finally, both Tornadus and Moltres can bring each other in safely with U-turn, against Pokemon that trouble one of the two Pokemon but fear the other. This allows Tornadus-T to easily clean whole teams late-game.</p>

    <p>There are also some more optional partners for Moltres. Dugtrio is of great help to Moltres, as Moltres can bring it in safely with U-turn allowing it to trap and eliminate Heatran and Tyranitar, winning the weather war in the case of the latter and giving Moltres an opening to wreak havoc. When using Dugtrio, Moltres also puts Choice Scarf Genesect in a checkmate position, as the only way that Genesect can KO Moltres is with Thunderbolt, and if it does that, it gets trapped and KOed by Dugtrio. As long as Genesect doesn't use Thunderbolt, Moltres can act as a great switch-in, shielding your team from its other attacks. This fact makes Moltres a good lead against teams with Genesect, as most Genesect use Choice Scarf, and Genesect that do not hold Choice Scarf don't typically lead. Terrakion, especially the Choice Band set, murders all of Moltres's checks and counters, making for a great teammate. Celebi has amazing defensive synergy with Moltres, checking Pokemon such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Calm Mind + Substitute Jirachi, and Starmie, while Moltres can get many free switch-ins via Celebi's U-turn against the many Steel- and Grass-types that Celebi attracts. Finally, specially defensive Jirachi can pass Wishes to Moltres with ease, as they have excellent defensive synergy, helping Moltres with its longevity problem and also taking Rock- and Dragon-type attacks aimed at Moltres.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A defensive set utilizing Substitute and Roost alongside Flamethrower and Hurricane or Flamethrower and Toxic is the most viable Moltres set not already listed. Thanks to Pressure, Moltres can easily PP stall moves from Pokemon that would otherwise hurt it badly by alternating between Substitute and Roost, such as Stone Edge from Tyranitar and Hydro Pump from Rotom-W and Choice Specs Politoed. The following spread should be used with this set: 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96 Spe with a Timid nature. This spread gives Moltres enough Speed to outrun positive natured base 70s, such as Breloom and Politoed, and places the rest of the EVs into HP and Special Defense because Moltres's typing is better suited to take special hits. However, this set can be walled and rendered useless by many common Pokemon, such as Roar Heatran, Hippowdon, Calm Mind Jirachi or specially defensive Jirachi with Thunder, and Tentacruel, and is checked by many other Pokemon depending on the secondary move of choice Moltres chooses to run (Hurricane or Toxic). It is also hurt pretty badly by Stealth Rock, as with Stealth Rock up it can't wall any of the threats that it otherwise could and has to spend all of its time using Roost. Substitute can be used with Life Orb on the offensive set when running Roost to take advantage of Pressure and stall out moves that could hurt Moltres, scout faster switch-ins, and ease prediction, but between Substitute, Life Orb recoil, and Stealth Rock damage, Moltres will rarely find time to attack or heal. Choice Scarf is an option on the offensive set to enable Moltres to act as a moderately powerful revenge killer, but it is outclassed by pretty much any other revenge killer in OU due to a huge Stealth Rock weakness and a mediocre Speed stat. Lastly, an Agility set with Fire Blast, SolarBeam, and Hidden Power Ground is a viable option in sun teams, and can act as a decent cleaner late-game, but faces a lot of competition from better sun sweepers such as Volcarona, Venusaur, and Victini, and thus is generally outclassed.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>The best way to deal with Moltres is Stealth Rock, as with it on the field Moltres can only switch-in three times at best, which hampers greatly its effectiveness. If the Stealth Rock setter is paired with Pokemon such as Choice Band Tyranitar or Choice Scarf Gothitelle Moltres will have an even harder time coming in, as the two most common spinners paired with it, Starmie and Tentacruel, are in danger of getting trapped. As far as traditional counters go, Chansey and Blissey are the only surefire counters to Moltres. Tyranitar and Heatran work too, but they both get hurt pretty badly by Hidden Power Fighting and Hidden Power Ground respectively, and Heatran can't do any immediate damage back to Moltres, having to settle for poisoning it with Toxic or setting up Stealth Rock and phazing Moltres with Roar. Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos and Jirachi in rain are all good checks, but are prone to getting worn down, or lose if a Hurricane confusion occurs. Everything faster than Moltres that can take a hit is an okay check, namely Scarf Rotom-W, Jolteon, Thundurus-T, and Calm Mind Jirachi, as they can switch into Moltres once or twice and force it out. Finally, there are many offensive Pokemon that can revenge kill Moltres; Pokemon such as Keldeo, Latios, Starmie, and Terrakion will do the trick, as long as Moltres hasn't boosted with Agility beforehand.</p>

    [Unreleased]

    <p>Moltres gets Flame Body from the Dream World, a very useful ability that lets it burn physically based Pokemon that Moltres can easily switch into, such as Ferrothorn, Toxicroak, and Lucario, as well as U-turn users such as Scizor and Jirachi. Flame Body is almost always superior to Pressure, as Moltres only uses offensive sets that don't get any real benefit from Pressure.</p>
  2. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    ok i watched some replays and you've managed to sway my opinion a little. i still don't think moltres is very good but it probably does deserve an ou analysis. it's a lot better than some of the stuff we're giving analyses anyways...

    that's the first line. maybe change to mediocre pokemon? because if i was new to mons and i read that line i'd immediately close the window and find another bird to use. if you want to sell it don't immediately call it "bad"!

    edit: get ninja'd swamprocket n_n

    you should make it clear that you shouldn't be using roost with choice specs.

    as for the hp fighting vs hp ground thing, i've generally found hp ground to be a little better than hp fighting, as you can always u-turn out of tyranitar (oh yeah i think roost sucks too) and ohkoing heatran is really crucial sometimes, especially when tran's packing toxic or stealth rock or even stone edge (which i actually saw today, props to whoever that was). and hp ground still pops ttar for decent damage so you're not really missing out on much.

    as far as natures go, i'd say timid 100% of the time simply because there's a ton of relevant threats that you outspeed as timid but don't as modest. such threats include adamant haxorus, modest hydreigon, jolly gyarados, jolly mamoswine, offensive lando-t, fast gliscor, the list really could go on and on but i'll spare you. especially when using choice specs, the increase in power from modest is hardly noticeable. unless you can tell me what relevant kos i'm missing out on by using timid, i'd say timid all the way and modest to ac.

    gotta say this looks pretty good otherwise, i hope we get it qc'd quickly.
  3. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    echoing Lavos that the first line is not a great way to put it.

    imo this would be a better way to put it

    Saying that it "was always bad" makes it translate to "was always, and still is, bad" if you don't think about it hard enough.
  4. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Basically this. Moltres needs an astonishing amount of support to get the job done (Torn, Dug, Rain and a way to get SR off the field), but when it has that support, it really does get the job done.

    2nding pretty much what Lavos Spawn said as well, in that I prefer HP Ground over Fighting, and really dislike Roost, heck I don't very much like Sharp Beak either. In Regards to Modest vs Timid, I back Timid getting first slash, however, I don't really like ACing Modest, when its job is to really weaken walls for Tornadus, and it really appreciates that extra power against Tran, Jirahci, and Rotom-W. Just my 2cents tho.
  5. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    The new Gyarados analysis that you yourself alexwolf helped to write has 88HP instead of 56HP, so:

    252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hurricane vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 286-337 (81.01 - 95.46%)

    Also, Jolteon can be added a as a check, as it can revenge kill Moltres with Thunder.

    Remove all mentions of Genesect in the new write up.
  6. melvni

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    You need an unreleased section for this. Flame Body Moltres isn't released.
  7. B-Lulz

    B-Lulz You ain't gotta love it 'cos the hood gone love it
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    I've been using Moltres on my main team for about a month or so and I totally disagree. Moltres is a great late game clean-upper with hazards on the other side in rain. I used it with Flame Charge, Modest and Sharp Beak and i've been really impressed with it. You can just spam Hurricane for the most part and use Fire Blast against Jirachi and Metagross if need be. I tinkered between HP Fighting for Tyranitar and HP Ground for Heatran, honestly because of the Sp.Def boost I would go with Ground, you only do around 60% to TTar anyway. But yeah I have been using it, and while you do need a spinner its not that hard to keep Moltres relevant in the match (also being able to beat special Landorus 100% is not too bad either)
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    @Lavos Spawn

    I agree that HP Ground > HP Fight, so i will change the order.

    I will also change the opening of the overview, as referring to Moltres as bad is a stretch and very disheartening for players that read the analysis.

    Finally, you are right about Timid, the Pokemon that Moltres outspeeds are very important so i should slash it first. I always prefer Modest though, because i almost always bring Moltres in against slow Pokemon that Moltres outspeeds with either nature, such as SpD Celebi, Breloom, Scizor, and Ferrothorn, and procceed to hit the switch-in. I rarely need to take on the Pokemon that Timid lets you outspeed as usually i have better answers to them instead of hoping they don't use a scarf or a +Speed nature, and i prefer the general added power(Kyurem-B often runs a Hasty/Naive nature, Gyarados never runs Jolly, Gliscor can't do anything back to Moltres other than Toxic it, which is just a nuisance. However, outspeeding Jolly Mamoswine, mixed Hydreigon, and Sub Kyurem-B is very useful and the main reason i will slash Timid first. Finally, it is worth noting that if you are using Tailwind Tornadus alongside Moltres, Modest becomes the best option as Moltres really appreciates the 10% boost to clean better with Tailwind.

    @Swamp-Rocket


    You are completely right and i like the way you worded it, so i will use your opening, thanks!

    @Ginganinja

    You are right in almost everything. As i said again, i will slash HP Ground first. I don't like 3 attacks + Roost Moltress at all, but shrang insisted on putting it so... I don't know it could be nice if he could use this set again a bit and tell us if it is viable, but i never liked it and i will be happy to remove Roost and Sharp Beak from the main set and only give them an AC mention.

    Finally, your last sentence explains exactly how i feel about Modest vs Timid. Timid lets you outspeed very relevant threats but Modest pairs better with Moltres's purpose (wallbreaking), and the extra damage is appreciated against certain Pokemon.

    @Hemp Man

    Will change the HP EVs on Gyarados thx! Also will add Jolteon as a check and remove Genesect mentions dw.

    @Melvni

    Will do!

    @B-Lulz

    Hmm your post gave me an idea. I have tried Agility Moltres in sun and it sucks, but Agility Moltres in rain seems much more potent (btw why use Flame Charge when you can use Agility?). Agility Moltres can demolish offensive rain teams and can set-up against the various Steel-types that are found on such teams. Here are some calcs to show how Modest LO Moltres with Hurricane + Fire Blast + Hidden Power Ground fares against the bulkier offensive Pokemon and some defensive ones:

    • 252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 291-348 (75.58 - 90.38%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 251-296 (83.11 - 98.01%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 411-489 (116.76 - 138.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • 252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi in rain: 268-320 (66.33 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi in rain: 198-237 (49 - 58.66%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 298-351 (91.97 - 108.33%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 273-321 (84.78 - 99.68%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 312-368 (87.15 - 102.79%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 298-351 (76.21 - 89.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 312-368 (96.29 - 113.58%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jolteon: 221-263 (81.54 - 97.04%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 164-193 (54.84 - 64.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    As you can see Moltres can 2HKO everything that rain teams commonly carry, and easily sweep with an Agility boost with just SR up. So i am considering slashing Agility after U-turn and Life Orb after Choice Specs, giving the option to run either a dedicated wallbreaker or a powerful LO attacker that has the ability to act as a late game sweeper. It goes without saying that Agility Moltres can easily sweep Sun teams with an Agility boost and a Timid nature, outspeeding even Venusaur after a boost.
  9. MatchMaster

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    Just thought I'd point out that the EV spread should probably be 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe, since Genesect is banned now, and there is no need to have the extra SpD EVs.
  10. shrang

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  11. alexwolf

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    Added the Agility set!
  12. jc104

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    Well from what I've seen so far I'm not convinced by the agility set. I'll wait for more logs (or maybe test myself) before deciding, though. edit: I'm convinced!

    Previously, I remember preferring HP Fighting to HP Ground. Although Tyranitar is hit reasonably hard by U-turn, it seems the more significant target for a rain team, and tbh I don't rate U-turn much at all. Maybe it's just because I'm bad at keeping SR off the field. When using HP fight I don't find Dugtrio support to be absolutely necessary, which is always a plus. I can do adequate damage to both tyranitar and heatran.
  13. Chillarmy

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    Eh, I'd slash Roost first on Agility. Moltres isn't exactly the bulkiest Pokemon, so repeated hits from priority or just pounding away at Moltres before it sets up (you'd be surprised at how many people don't switch vs Moltres...) will bring it down pretty quickly. I haven't messed around with HP Ground yet, but Moltres's ideal partners can usually deal with Heatran / TTar (I'm using rain + Colbur CM Latios btw); moreover, I just feel very uncomfortable using LOTres without Roost as it heavily restricts my team (I must either pack Toxic Tentacruel / Xatu or play very carefully), making it difficult to go through with such a change.
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Ok after more testing i slashed Roost before HP Ground as it is really better and lets Moltres extend its sweep and come in early and mid-game to blust stuff without worrying about LO recoil cutting its sweep later.

    As for HP Fight vs HP Ground on the Specs set, i prefer the OHKO on Heatran than the 2HKO on Tyranitar, as Tyranitar could very easily switch out while Moltres becomes setup bait for something without even having killed its target. And don't forget that Specs Moltres is not going to have many switch-in opportunities, so it must make them count, as a OHKO on a threat that walls you is much better than a 2HKO against a threat that will take your STABs even at low life and will disrupt your weather as well. Finally, U-turn + SR actually hurts Tyranitar (does 37% on average with SR) but not Heatran, and unlike HP Fight it keeps momentum. So HP Ground will remain slashed before HP Fighting.
  15. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Ok this is ready for QC checks! For the old analysis, just check the changes (red/blue) and if you agree give your approval. As for the Agility set, after and if it gets approved i will write it up separately. Also you will notice that in the checks and counters section i don't talk about the Agility set, and this is because it hasn't been approved yet. If it gets approved i will add checks and counters for it as well, no worries.

    Bring it on guys :D
  16. BKC

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    at least its not articuno

    qc approved 1/3
  17. Lavos Spawn

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    qc approved 2/3
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Thanks for the checks guys! Will write the Agility set asap and have this ready for the 3rd QC check.

    If any QC member has objections with the Agility set, speak now that i haven't written the set yet.
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Written and ready for 3rd QC check!
  20. shrang

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    Looks fine

    [qc]3/3[/qc]
  21. alexwolf

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    Thanks shrang, GP team your turn!
  22. tehy

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    If the whole analysis is being checked, maybe you should organize it and take it out of hide tags?

    Edit:And you have the red and blue stuff going on, that's also bad
  23. alexwolf

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    You are right tehy, i changed it. I had the blue/red thing so that the QC team could see what were the changes i made, but it is not needed anymore.
  24. Nutrix

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    OK amcheck time.

    REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

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    [Overview]

    <p>In the past, Moltres was considered to be a bad Pokemon in OU. Losing 50% of its health from Stealth Rock, having a mediocre 90 base Speed, being weak to Electric-, Rock-, and Water-type moves, and being outclassed by the various other Fire-types of OU were the main all reasons that Moltres never saw any real use. However, Moltres got Hurricane in BW2, giving it a reason to be used in OU. While it faces stiff competition with the tier's prime premier Hurricane user, Tornadus, Moltres has its own unique traits to distinguish it. These traits are the ability to act as a hard check to some dangerous offensive Pokemon in OU, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Volcarona, and Swords Dance Scizor, the ability to use an Agility set (consider explaining it a little further, i.e. something like "use an Agility set to clean up late-game;" really, though, it's personal preference), the ability to overcome Jirachi, Bronzong, Metagross, and OHKO Ferrothorn in rain, and lastly, the ability to easily switch into many Pokemon that sun teams carry, and from there punch holes with a stupidly strong Fire Blast. Even if those traits are not enough for Moltres to escape from the shadow of Tornadus and its other flaws, Moltres and Tornadus form a destructive Hurricane combo when combined together, where Moltres weakens the Pokemon that prevent Tornadus from cleaning up late-game or vice-versa, with Tornadus sacrificing itself after using priority Tailwind to allow Moltres to sweep. In short, despite needing a ton of support to work, Moltres has two definite niches in OU: the ability to work as a wallbreaking partner for Tornadus and the ability to act as a powerful Agility sweeper under rain.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
    move 4: U-turn
    item: Choice Specs
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Moltres is tied with Tornadus for the most powerful Hurricane in OU, and with Choice Specs attached its power is phenomenal. To give you an example of Moltres's power, offensive Heatran is always 2HKOed by Hurricane after just Stealth Rock alone. In addition, Moltres's typing allows it to check some dangerous offensive threats that no other Hurricane user in OU can, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Lucario, and Volcarona, that no other Hurricane user in OU can do. As with any Hurricane user, Moltres needs Drizzle support from Politoed to function properly. However, unlike most Hurricane users, Moltres has the ability to perform admirably under sun, (AC) as nothing except Heatran can take its Fire Blast; to make matters worse for opposing sun teams, Moltres gets many opportunities to switch in against Pokemon commonly found on sun teams, namely including Ninetales, Heatran, Volcarona, Xatu, and Venusaur. Hurricane is the move Moltres should be using most of the time, as it 2HKOes every Pokemon that doesn't resist it not named Blissey or Chanseythat doesn't resist it. Under rain, Fire Blast will at worst 2HKO every Steel-type under rain that can tank Hurricane, such as Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross, and will also OHKOes Ferrothorn, which is a boon for rain teams, (RC) as many rain teams lack a way to quickly dispose of it. Fire Blast is also Moltres's main weapon against sun teams, as Moltres can find many opportunities to switch in against sun teams and proceed to fire off sun-boosted STAB Fire Blasts, pulling its weight even in sun. Hidden Power Ground OHKOes any Heatran, while 2HKOing any Choice Tyranitar, but fails to do any significant damage to specially defensive variants of the latter. Hidden Power Fighting is used to 2HKO any Tyranitar and Heatran; more specifically, offensive Heatran and Choice Scarf Tyranitar are always OHKOed after Stealth Rock. U-turn allows Moltres to scout for switch-ins from its counters, Chansey, Blissey, and Tyranitar, while also doing a fair bit of damage to Tyranitar. </p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Modest is the primary nature because the extra power gives Moltres certain OHKOs and 2HKOs. Specifically:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 SpD Heatran: 45.82 - 54.17%, sure 2HKO after Stealth Rock</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 49.49 - 58.19%, 67.97% chance to 2HKO</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs +2 SpD 0 HP Volcarona: 97.1 - 114.46%, 81.25% chance to OHKO</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 HP Garchomp: 100 - 118.15%</li>
    <li>Fire Blast (rain) vs 252 / 224+ Jirachi: 57.92 - 68.31%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Choice Specs is the only item choice because of the huge power it provides and because Moltres should be using Hurricane most of the time anyway. The Speed EVs enable Moltres to outspeed Timid Heatran and OHKO it with Hidden Power Ground before it gets a chance to set up Stealth Rock, while the 4 leftover EVs are thrown into Defense to better take priority. By using a Timid nature Moltres has gains the advantage of outspeeding max Speed Jolly Mamoswine, any Rotom-W without a Choice Scarf, Modest Landorus, Modest Kyurem, neutral natured Kyurem-B, Adamant Haxorus, and Modest Hydreigon. Hidden Power Ground is the superior move for the third slot as it OHKOes its main target, Heatran, and U-turn deals with Tyranitar pretty well anyway. Was that last sentence suppposed to go in the Set Comments paragraph?</p>

    <p>Sleep Talk is a viable option as Moltres can easily switch into Breloom, Venusaur, and Amoonguss. Hidden Power Grass allows Moltres to OHKO offensive Rotom-W, 2HKO specially defensive Rotom-W, and 2HKO any Choiced Tyranitar after Stealth Rock. Sharp Beak is an option if one prefers the freedom to change moves and the ability to use Roost, which is very handy in some situations. When using Sharp Beak, drop U-turn should be dropped to make room for Roost. Life Orb can be used over Sharp Beak if you find that any move other than Hurricane lacks power, but the Life Orb recoil, Stealth Rock damage, and any other damage that Moltres may receive will leave it wanting to use Roost all the time, having little time to actually attack, which contradicts the purpose of the set.</p>

    <p>Politoed is mandatory as a teammate, to make Moltres's Hurricane 100% accurate. A way to get rid of Stealth Rock is also obligatory when using Moltres, which means using either Rapid Spin or Magic Bounce support. Starmie and Tentacruel are the spinners that work the best with Moltres and are the best spinners for rain teams too; Starmie is usually the option for more offensive teams, and can revenge kill some Pokemon that outspeed and OHKO Moltres, such as Terrakion, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo, while Tentacruel is the option for more balanced teams, and still deals with many Pokemon that trouble Moltres such as Keldeo, Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Politoed. In return, Moltres can take Ground-, Bug-, and Grass-type attacks aimed at Starmie and Tentacruel, and beat Pokemon that they hate facing such as Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Amoonguss. Even Custap Berry Forretress with Rapid Spin can be used on offensive rain teams, as even though Forretress is not a good spinner, keeping Stealth Rock off the field for even for the first few turns that Forretress leads can give to Moltres enough time to do its job. As for Magic Bounce users, neither Espeon nor Xatu work particularly well with Moltres in rain teams, but they are both options if Moltres is used on offensive VoltTurn teams, the only team archetype in which the Magic Bounce Pokemon will manage to keep Stealth Rock off the field for any period of time. Tornadus is the best offensive partner for Moltres and the combination of the two is the main reason to use Choice Specs Moltres in OU. remove period and insert an em-dash; I have no idea how to show that Tornadus forms a dual Hurricane combo with Moltres and together they break down Flying-type resists and, in general, can wear down each other's counters. Life Orb Tornadus with Superpower and Tailwind is the best variant to use alongside Moltres, as it can reliably beat Blissey, Chansey, Heatran, and Tyranitar, while Moltres weakens Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos, as well as handling Jirachi, Bronzong, Scizor, Skarmory, and sun teams, occasionally leading to a late-game sweep of either Hurricane user. Additionally, Tornadus can use use Tailwind before going down, giving to Moltres three turns to wreck havoc with Hurricane, (RC) and often allowing it to clean weakened teams. Finally, both Tornadus and Moltres can bring each other in safely with U-turn, (RC against Pokemon that trouble one of the two Pokemon but fear the other.</p>

    <p>There are also some more optional partners for Moltres. Dugtrio is of great help to Moltres, as Moltres can bring it in safely with U-turn, (AC) allowing it to trap and eliminate Heatran and Tyranitar, winning the weather war in the case of the latter and giving Moltres an opening to wreak havoc. Terrakion, especially the Choice Band set, murders all of Moltres's checks and counters, making for a great teammate. Celebi has amazing defensive synergy with Moltres, checking Pokemon such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Calm Mind + Substitute Jirachi, and Starmie, while Moltres can get many free switch-ins via Celebi's U-turn against the many Steel- and Grass-types that Celebi attracts. Finally, specially defensive Jirachi can pass Wishes to Moltres with ease, as they have excellent defensive synergy, helping Moltres with its longevity problem, (AC) and can also taking take Rock- and Dragon-type attacks aimed at Moltres.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Agility
    move 1: Agility
    move 2: Hurricane
    move 3: Fire Blast
    move 4: Roost / Hidden Power Ground
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Agility transforms Moltres into a fearsome sweeper under both rain and sun, (RC) which after a turn of setup outspeeds the entire OU metagame, including Chlorophyll Venusaur in sun. Thanks to its good typing, Stealth Rock problems aside, (you mention Stealth Rock problems later in the sentence, but it if you really want to emphasize it, I would go ahead and keep it) Moltres can force out and set up on dangerous and common Pokemon, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Technician Breloom, and Scizor, meaning that setting up won't be very hard as long as Stealth Rock is off the field. Hurricane OHKOes every single offensive Pokemon that doesn't resist it, (RC) after Stealth Rock, (RC) and has great neutral coverage, with only nine Pokemon that resist it in OU. Fire Blast compliments Hurricane perfectly, OHKOing even in rain some of the Pokemon that can take a Hurricane, such as Magnezone and Skarmory, and greatly damaging some of the rest, such as Jirachi and Metagross. It while also giving to gives Moltres a fearsome weapon against Sun teams as well as a more accurate STAB move to use if neither rain nor sun are up. Fire Blast is also useful to OHKO Ferrothorn in rain, a quality that many rain teams struggle to find and really appreciate. Roost gives Moltres better survivability, allows it to have better presence in early- and mid-game, and eases set up against Pokemon that Moltres walls, making any attempt of those Pokemon to stay in and wear Moltres down futile. On the other hand, Hidden Power Ground forfeits all those benefits to give Moltres better sweeping potential, as with it Moltres can OHKO offensive Heatran and deal 75% minimum to specially defensive variants, OHKO Jolteon after Stealth Rock most of the time, and hit Ninetales slightly harder and more reliably than Fire Blast and more reliably.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Modest is the best nature for this set, as it allows Moltres to get a ton of important OHKOes, (AC) and Moltres already outspeeds every Pokemon in OU after an Agility. However, a Timid nature helps Moltres outspeed some dangerous threats such as neutral natured Kyreum-B and Hydreigon, Jolly Mamoswine, and Modest Celebi, making it a viable option if Moltres's team has troubles with those Pokemon. Hidden Power Fighting OHKOes Scarf Tyranitar after Stealth Rock most of the time and 2HKOes every other variant, while also hitting Heatran for good damage. Hidden Power Grass is useful to 2HKO any Rotom-W, (AC) and dealing 68% damage minimum to 232 HP variants, and OHKO Gastrodon with a layer of Spikes, while hitting Tyranitar for the same damage as Hidden Power Ground.</p>

    <p>Politoed is a mandatory teammate as Moltres is a dedicated rain sweeper. Dugtrio is the next best partner, clearing the way for Moltres to sweep by eliminating Tyranitar and Heatran, weakening Jirachi to Fire Blast's KO range, and helping Politoed with win weather wars. Gothitelle is another trapper that Moltres enjoys having as a teammate, especially variants with Grass Knot, which can weaken or eliminate the two weather inducers that Moltres dislikes, Tyranitar and Hippowdon. Gothitelle also wears down the defensive Water-types that can tank one Hurricane from Moltres and can cripple Chansey and Blissery with Trick. When using Moltres, serious measures against Stealth Rock must be taken. Starmie and Tentacruel are both excellent spinners for rain teams, with Starmie putting up big offensive pressure and Tentacruel being very resilient and a better dedicated spinner. Custap Berry Forretress with Rapid Spin is another great teammate for Moltres, setting up entry hazards and preventing Stealth Rock from getting up the first few turns, making it easier for Moltres to switch in at the early stages of the game. Although rarely seen on rain teams, Xatu is an option for very fast paced offensive teams with other U-turn or Volt-turn users, and can prevent Stealth Rock from getting up for a limited amount of time, which is fine considering that the game shouldn't last very long anyway. Agility Moltres is best used on offensive rain teams that have good momentum and pace control, where it is easy to keep Stealth Rock off the field by constantly attacking with Pokemon that are difficult to wall, meaning that the spinner that accompanies Moltres won't have to get rid of Stealth Rock very often.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A defensive set utilizing Substitute and Roost alongside Flamethrower and Hurricane or Flamethrower and Toxic is the most viable Moltres set not already listed. Thanks to Pressure, Moltres can easily PP stall moves from Pokemon that would otherwise hurt it badly by alternating between Substitute and Roost, such as Stone Edge from Tyranitar and Hydro Pump from Rotom-W and Choice Specs Politoed. The following spread should be used with this set: 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96 Spe with a Timid nature. This spread gives Moltres enough Speed to outrun positive natured base 70s, such as Breloom and Politoed, and places the rest of the EVs into HP and Special Defense because Moltres's typing is better suited to take special hits. However, this set can be walled and rendered useless by many common Pokemon, such as Roar Heatran, Hippowdon, Calm Mind Jirachi or specially defensive Jirachi with Thunder, Jirachi sets with Calm Mind or Thunder, I feel like it flows better this way, but it's down to personal preference and Tentacruel, and is checked by many other Pokemon depending on the secondary move of choice final move Moltres chooses to run (Hurricane or Toxic). It Its viability is also hurt pretty badly by Stealth Rock, as with Stealth Rock up it can't wall any of the threats that it otherwise could and has to spend all of its time using Roost. Substitute can be used with Life Orb on the offensive set when running Roost to take advantage of Pressure and stall out moves that could hurt Moltres, scout faster switch-ins, and ease prediction, but between Substitute, Life Orb recoil, and Stealth Rock damage, Moltres will rarely find time to attack or heal. Choice Scarf is an option on the offensive set to enable Moltres to act as a moderately powerful revenge killer, but it is outclassed by pretty much any other revenge killer in OU due to a huge Stealth Rock weakness and a mediocre Speed stat. Lastly, an Agility set with Fire Blast, SolarBeam, and Hidden Power Ground is a viable option in sun teams, and can act as a decent cleaner late-game, but faces a lot of competition from better sun sweepers such as Volcarona, Venusaur, and Victini, and thus is generally outclassed.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>The best way to deal with Moltres is Stealth Rock, as with it on the field Moltres can only switch-in switch in three times at best, which hampers greatly its effectiveness. If the Stealth Rock setter is paired with Pokemon such as Choice Band Tyranitar or Choice Scarf Gothitelle Moltres will have an even harder time coming in, as the two most common spinners paired with it, Starmie and Tentacruel, are in danger of getting trapped. As far as traditional counters go, Chansey and Blissey are the only surefire counters to Moltres. Tyranitar and Heatran work too, but they both get hurt pretty badly by Hidden Power Fighting and Hidden Power Ground respectively, and Heatran can't do any immediate damage back to Moltres, having to settle for poisoning it with Toxic or setting up Stealth Rock and phazing Moltres with Roar. Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos and Jirachi in rain are all good checks, but are prone to getting worn down, or and will lose if a Hurricane confusion occurs. Everything faster than Moltres that can take a hit is an okay check, namely Scarf Rotom-W, Jolteon, Thundurus-T, and Calm Mind Jirachi, as they can switch into Moltres once or twice and force it out. Finally, there are many offensive Pokemon that can revenge kill Moltres; Pokemon such as Keldeo, Latios, Starmie, and Terrakion will do the trick, as long as Moltres hasn't boosted with Agility beforehand.</p>

    [Unreleased]

    <p>Moltres gets Flame Body from the Dream World, a very useful ability that lets it burn physically based Pokemon that Moltres can easily switch into, such as Ferrothorn, Toxicroak, and Lucario, as well as U-turn users such as Scizor and Jirachi. Flame Body is almost always superior to Pressure, as Moltres only uses offensive sets that don't get any real benefit from Pressure.</p>


    I'm still pretty new to this, so let me know if I'm changing too much, too little, etc.

    Oh yeah, and now I really want to go make a team with Agility Moltres.
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Thx nutrix, very useful GP check!

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