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Moltres (Post-Tornadus-T Update)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by alexwolf, Apr 6, 2013.

  1. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Oh, before we go any further, it might be worth mentioning on the Agility set that Moltres doesn't necessarily have to set up Agility to be useful, since the Speed boost might be useless in some instances, and Moltres is better off denting rain checks and counters like in the Choice Specs set. This is to avoid players blindly assuming Agility on Moltres is always useful, since it isn't.
  2. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Ok, will do AG.

    I added this sentence in the Set Comments of the Agility set:

    If we are fine, let's get to more GP checking...
  3. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego This is what is technically known as a Firecat
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    REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

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    [Overview]

    <p>In the past, Moltres was considered to be a bad Pokemon in OU. Losing 50% of its health from Stealth Rock, having a mediocre base 90 Speed, being weak to Electric-, Rock-, and Water-type moves, and being outclassed by various other Fire-types were all reasons that Moltres never saw any real use. However, Moltres got Hurricane in BW2, giving it a reason to be used in OU. While it faces stiff competition with the tier's premier Hurricane user, Tornadus, Moltres has its own unique traits to distinguish it. These traits are the ability to act as a hard check to some dangerous offensive Pokemon in OU, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Volcarona, and Swords Dance Scizor, the ability to use an Agility set to attempt a late-game sweep, the ability to overcome Jirachi, Bronzong, Metagross, and OHKO Ferrothorn in rain, and lastly, the ability to easily switch into many Pokemon that sun teams carry, (RC) and from there punch holes with a stupidly strong Fire Blast. Even if those traits are not enough for Moltres to escape from the shadow of Tornadus and its other flaws, Moltres and Tornadus form a destructive Hurricane combo when combined together, where Moltres weakens the Pokemon that prevent Tornadus from cleaning up late-game or vice-versa, with Tornadus sacrificing itself after using priority Tailwind to allow Moltres to sweep. In short, despite needing a ton of support to work, Moltres has two definite niches in OU: the ability to work as a wallbreaking partner for Tornadus and the ability to act as a powerful Agility sweeper under rain.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
    move 4: U-turn
    item: Choice Specs
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Moltres is tied with Tornadus for the most powerful Hurricane in OU, and with Choice Specs attached its power is phenomenal. To give an example of Moltres's power, offensive Heatran is always 2HKOed by Hurricane after Stealth Rock alone. In addition, Moltres's typing allows it to check some dangerous offensive threats that no other Hurricane user in OU can, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Lucario, and Volcarona. As with any Hurricane user, Moltres needs Drizzle support from Politoed to function properly. However, unlike most Hurricane users, Moltres has the ability to perform admirably under sun, as nothing except Heatran can take its Fire Blast; to make matters worse for opposing sun teams, Moltres gets many opportunities to switch in against Pokemon commonly found on sun teams, including Ninetales, Heatran, Volcarona, Xatu, and Venusaur. Hurricane is the move Moltres should be using most of the time, as it 2HKOes every Pokemon that doesn't resist it not named Blissey or Chansey. Under rain, Fire Blast will at worst 2HKO every Steel-type that can tank Hurricane, such as Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross, and will also OHKO Ferrothorn, which is a boon for rain teams as many that lack a way to quickly dispose of it. Fire Blast is also Moltres's main weapon against sun teams, as Moltres can find many opportunities to switch in against sun teams and proceed to fire off sun-boosted STAB Fire Blasts, pulling its weight even in sun. Hidden Power Ground OHKOes any Heatran, (RC) while 2HKOing any Choice Tyranitar, but fails to do any significant damage to specially defensive variants of the latter I'm assuming this means tyranitar? I wasn't aware there were specially defensive variants. Perhaps change it to just "defensive". Hidden Power Fighting is used to 2HKO any Tyranitar and Heatran; more specifically, offensive Heatran and Choice Scarf Tyranitar are even always OHKOed after Stealth Rock. Hidden Power Ground is the superior move for the third slot, (AC) as it OHKOes its main target, Heatran, and U-turn deals with Tyranitar pretty well anyway. U-turn allows Moltres to scout for switch-ins from its counters, (RC) (Chansey, Blissey, and Tyranitar), (RC) while also doing a fair bit of damage to Tyranitar.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Modest is the primary nature because the extra power gives Moltres certain OHKOs and 2HKOs. Specifically:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 SpD Heatran: 45.82 - 54.17%, sure 2HKO after Stealth Rock</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 49.49 - 58.19%, 67.97% chance to 2HKO</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs +2 SpD 0 HP Volcarona: 97.1 - 114.46%, 81.25% chance to OHKO</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 HP Garchomp: 100 - 118.15%</li>
    <li>Fire Blast (rain) vs 252 / 224+ Jirachi: 57.92 - 68.31%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Choice Specs is the only item choice because of the huge power it provides and because Moltres should be using Hurricane most of the time anyway. The Speed EVs enable Moltres to outspeed Timid Heatran and OHKO it with Hidden Power Ground before it gets a chance to set up Stealth Rock. , while The 4 leftover EVs are thrown into Defense to better take priority. By using a Timid nature, (AC) Moltres gains the advantage of outspeeding max Speed Jolly Mamoswine, any Rotom-W without a Choice Scarf, Modest Landorus, Modest Kyurem, neutral natured Kyurem-B, Adamant Haxorus, and Modest Hydreigon.</p>

    <p>Sleep Talk is a viable option, (AC) as Moltres can easily switch into Breloom, Venusaur, and Amoonguss. Hidden Power Grass allows Moltres to OHKO offensive Rotom-W, 2HKO specially defensive Rotom-W, and 2HKO any Choiced Tyranitar after Stealth Rock. Sharp Beak is an option if one prefers the freedom to change moves and the ability to use Roost, which is very handy in some situations. When using Sharp Beak, U-turn should be dropped to make room for Roost. Life Orb can be used over Sharp Beak if you find that any move other than Hurricane lacks power, but the Life Orb recoil, Stealth Rock damage, and any other damage that Moltres may receive will leave it wanting to use Roost all the time, having little time to actually attack, which contradicts the purpose of the set.</p>

    <p>Politoed is mandatory as a teammate, (RC) to make Moltres's Hurricane 100% accurate. A way to get rid of Stealth Rock is also obligatory when using Moltres, which means using either Rapid Spin or Magic Bounce support. Starmie and Tentacruel are the spinners that work the best with Moltres and are the best spinners for rain teams too; Starmie is usually the option for more offensive teams, and can revenge kill some Pokemon that outspeed and OHKO Moltres, such as Terrakion, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo, while Tentacruel is the option for more balanced teams, and still deals with many Pokemon that trouble Moltres such as Keldeo, Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Politoed. In return, Moltres can take Ground-, Bug-, and Grass-type attacks aimed at Starmie and Tentacruel, (RC) and beat Pokemon that they hate facing, (AC) such as Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Amoonguss. Even Custap Berry Forretress with Rapid Spin can be used on offensive rain teams, as even though Forretress is not a good spinner, I wouldn't say this at all. Perhaps "offensive spinner" if necessary to include keeping Stealth Rock off the field for even the first few turns that Forretress leads can give to Moltres enough time to do its job. As for Magic Bounce users, neither Espeon nor Xatu work particularly well with Moltres in rain teams, but they are both options if Moltres is used on offensive VoltTurn teams, the only team archetype in which the Magic Bounce Pokemon will manage to keep Stealth Rock off the field for any period of time. Tornadus is the best offensive partner for Moltres and the combination of the two is the main reason to use Choice Specs Moltres in OU. Tornadus forms a dual Hurricane combo with Moltres and together they break down Flying-type resists and, in general, can wear down each other's counters. Life Orb Tornadus with Superpower and Tailwind is the best variant to use alongside Moltres, as it can reliably beat Blissey, Chansey, Heatran, and Tyranitar, while Moltres weakens Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos, as well as handling Jirachi, Bronzong, Scizor, Skarmory, and sun teams, occasionally leading to a late-game sweep of either Hurricane user. Additionally, Tornadus can use use Tailwind before going down, giving Moltres three turns to wreck havoc with Hurricane and often allowing it to clean weakened teams. Finally, both Tornadus and Moltres can bring each other in safely with U-turn against Pokemon that trouble one of the two but fear the other.</p>

    <p>There are also some more optional partners for Moltres. Dugtrio is of great help to Moltres, as Moltres can bring it in safely with U-turn, allowing it to trap and eliminate Heatran and Tyranitar, winning the weather war in the case of the latter and removing some of Moltres's counters giving Moltres an opening to wreak havoc. Terrakion, especially the Choice Band set, murders all of Moltres's checks and counters, making it for a great teammate. Celebi has amazing defensive synergy with Moltres, checking Pokemon such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Calm Mind + Substitute Jirachi, and Starmie, while Moltres can get many free switch-ins via Celebi's U-turn against the many Steel- and Grass-types that Celebi attracts. Finally, specially defensive Jirachi can pass Wishes to Moltres with ease, as they have excellent defensive synergy, helping Moltres with its longevity problem, and can also take Rock- and Dragon-type attacks aimed at Moltres.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Agility
    move 1: Agility
    move 2: Hurricane
    move 3: Fire Blast
    move 4: Roost / Hidden Power Ground
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Agility transforms Moltres into a fearsome sweeper under both rain and sun, (AC) which after a turn of setup outspeeds the entire OU metagame, including Chlorophyll Venusaur in sun. Thanks to its good typing, Stealth Rock problems aside, Moltres can force out and set up on dangerous and common Pokemon, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Technician Breloom, and Scizor, meaning that setting up won't be very hard as long as Stealth Rock is off the field. Hurricane OHKOes every single offensive Pokemon that doesn't resist it after Stealth Rock and has great neutral coverage, with only nine Pokemon that resist it in OU. Fire Blast compliments Hurricane perfectly, OHKOing even in rain some of the Pokemon that can take a Hurricane, such as Magnezone and Skarmory, and greatly damaging some of the rest, such as Jirachi and Metagross. It also gives Moltres a fearsome weapon against sun teams as well as a more accurate STAB move to use if neither rain nor sun are up. Fire Blast is also useful to OHKO Ferrothorn in rain, a quality that many rain teams struggle to find and really appreciate. Roost gives Moltres better survivability, allows it to have better presence in early- and mid-game, and eases set up against Pokemon that Moltres walls, making any attempt of those Pokemon to stay in and wear Moltres down futile. Roost is also very useful in games where using Agility is not an option, either because Moltres and its teammates can't get past the opposing defensive core or because it is difficult for Moltres's team to keep Stealth Rock off the field, and allows Moltres to take the role of a wallbreaker and a check to problematic Pokemon. On the other hand, Hidden Power Ground forfeits all those benefits to give Moltres better sweeping potential, as with it Moltres can OHKO offensive Heatran and deal 75% minimum to specially defensive variants, OHKO Jolteon after Stealth Rock most of the time, and hit Ninetales slightly harder and more reliably than Fire Blast.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Modest is the best nature for this set, as it allows Moltres to get a ton of important OHKOs, and Moltres already outspeeds every Pokemon in OU after an Agility. However, a Timid nature helps Moltres outspeed some dangerous threats, (AC) such as neutral natured Kyreum-B and Hydreigon, Jolly Mamoswine, and Modest Celebi, making it a viable option if Moltres's team has troubles with those Pokemon. Hidden Power Fighting OHKOes Choice Scarf Tyranitar after Stealth Rock most of the time and 2HKOes every other variant, while also hitting Heatran for good damage. Hidden Power Grass is useful to 2HKO any Rotom-W, dealing 68% damage minimum to 232 HP variants, and OHKO Gastrodon with a layer of Spikes, (RC) while hitting Tyranitar for the same damage as Hidden Power Ground.</p>

    <p>Politoed is a mandatory teammate, (AC) as Moltres is a dedicated rain sweeper. Dugtrio is the next best partner, clearing the way for Moltres to sweep by eliminating Tyranitar and Heatran, weakening Jirachi to Fire Blast's KO range, and helping Politoed win weather wars. Gothitelle is another trapper that Moltres enjoys having as a teammate, especially variants with Grass Knot, which can weaken or eliminate the two weather inducers that Moltres dislikes, Tyranitar and Hippowdon. Gothitelle also wears down the defensive Water-types that can tank one Hurricane from Moltres, (AC) and can cripple Chansey and Blissery with Trick. When using Moltres, serious measures against Stealth Rock must be taken. Starmie and Tentacruel are both excellent spinners for rain teams, with Starmie putting up big offensive pressure and Tentacruel being very resilient and a better dedicated spinner. Custap Berry Forretress with Rapid Spin is another great teammate for Moltres, setting up entry hazards and preventing Stealth Rock from getting up the first few turns, making it easier for Moltres to switch in at the early stages of the game. Although rarely seen on rain teams, Xatu is an option for very fast-paced offensive teams with other U-turn or Volt Switch users, (RC) and can prevent Stealth Rock from getting up for a limited amount of time, which is fine considering that the game shouldn't last very long anyway. Agility Moltres is best used on offensive rain teams that have good momentum and pace control, where it is easy to keep Stealth Rock off the field by constantly attacking with Pokemon that are difficult to wall, meaning that the spinner that accompanies Moltres won't have to get rid of Stealth Rock very often.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A defensive set utilizing Substitute and Roost alongside Flamethrower and Hurricane or Flamethrower and Toxic is the most viable Moltres set not already listed. Thanks to Pressure, Moltres can easily PP stall moves from Pokemon that would otherwise hurt it badly by alternating between Substitute and Roost, such as Stone Edge from Tyranitar and Hydro Pump from Rotom-W and Choice Specs Politoed. The following spread should be used with this set: Such as set should run 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96 Spe with a Timid nature. This spread gives Moltres enough Speed to outrun positive-natured base 70s, such as Breloom and Politoed, and places the rest of the EVs into HP and Special Defense because Moltres's typing is better suited to take special hits. However, this set can be walled and rendered useless by many common Pokemon, such as Roar Heatran, Hippowdon, Jirachi sets with Calm Mind or Thunder, and Tentacruel, and is checked by many other Pokemon depending on the final move Moltres chooses to run (Hurricane or Toxic). Its viability is also hurt pretty badly by Stealth Rock, as with Stealth Rock up it can't wall any of the threats that it otherwise could and has to spend all of its time using Roost. Substitute can be used with Life Orb on the offensive set when running Roost to take advantage of Pressure and stall out moves that could hurt Moltres, scout faster switch-ins, and ease prediction, but between Substitute, Life Orb recoil, and Stealth Rock damage, Moltres will rarely find time to attack or heal. Choice Scarf is an option on the offensive set to enable Moltres to act as a moderately powerful revenge killer, but it is outclassed by pretty much any other revenge killer in OU due to a huge Stealth Rock weakness and a mediocre Speed stat. Lastly, an Agility set with Fire Blast, SolarBeam, and Hidden Power Ground is a viable option in sun teams, (RC) and can act as a decent cleaner late-game, but faces a lot of competition from better sun sweepers, (AC) such as Volcarona, Venusaur, and Victini, and thus is generally outclassed.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>The best way to deal with Moltres is Stealth Rock, as with it on the field Moltres can only switch in three times at best, which hampers greatly its effectiveness. If the Stealth Rock setter is paired with Pokemon such as Choice Band Tyranitar or Choice Scarf Gothitelle Moltres will have an even harder time coming in, as the two most common spinners paired with it Moltres, Starmie and Tentacruel, are in danger of getting trapped. As far as traditional counters go, Chansey and Blissey are the only surefire counters to Moltres. Tyranitar and Heatran work too, but they both get hurt pretty badly by an appropriate Hidden Power Fighting and Hidden Power Ground respectively, and Heatran can't do any immediate damage back to Moltres, having to settle for poisoning it with Toxic or setting up Stealth Rock and phazing Moltres with Roar. Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos and Jirachi in rain are all good checks, but are prone to getting worn down (the first two lack reliable recovery while Zapdos is weak to Stealth Rock) except for Jirachi, and will lose if a Hurricane confusion occurs or will get 2HKOed by Fire Blast in Jirachi's case. Everything faster than Moltres that can take a hit OHKO back and is an okay check, namely Choice Scarf Rotom-W, Jolteon, Thundurus-T, and Calm Mind Jirachi, as they can switch into Moltres once or twice and force it out. Finally, there are many offensive Pokemon that can revenge kill Moltres, including ; Pokemon such as Keldeo, Latios, Starmie, and Terrakion will do the trick, as long as Moltres hasn't used boosted with Agility beforehand.</p>

    [Unreleased]

    <p>Moltres gets Flame Body from the Dream World, a very useful ability that lets it burn physically based Pokemon that Moltres can easily switch into, such as Ferrothorn, Toxicroak, and Lucario, as well as U-turn users such as Scizor and Jirachi. Flame Body is almost always superior to Pressure, as Moltres only uses offensive sets that don't get any real benefit from Pressure.</p>



    I thought a lot of the prose here was long, unnecessary, and really kind of dull. It only served to elaborate on things that need almost no explanation, such as explaining exactly how little damage heatran can do to moltres when it's already enough to say it can't do much.
    [gp]1/2[/gp]
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Thx Gato, check implemented. I know that this analysis was a bit long and sometimes unnecessary wordy, but i wanted to make sure to explain Moltres use as best as i could.
  5. GCSChris

    GCSChris

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    Great analysis. Nice to see Moltres recognized for being usable in OU, although as stated in your analysis, it's generally outclassed. I made some an amateur GP check on top of the previously made edits by GatoDelFuego

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    [Overview]

    <p>In the past, Moltres was considered to be a bad Pokemon in OU. Losing 50% of its health from Stealth Rock, having a mediocre base 90 Speed, being weak to Electric-, Rock-, and Water-type moves, and being outclassed by various other Fire-types were all reasons that why Moltres never saw any real use. However, Moltres got Hurricane in BW2, giving it a reason to be used. While it faces stiff competition with the tier's premier Hurricane user, Tornadus, Moltres has its own unique traits to distinguish it. These are the ability to act as a hard check to some dangerous offensive Pokemon in OU, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Volcarona, and Swords Dance Scizor, the ability to use an Agility set to attempt a late-game sweep, the ability to overcome Jirachi, Bronzong, Metagross, and OHKO Ferrothorn in rain, and the ability to easily switch into many Pokemon that sun teams carry and punch holes with a stupidly strong Fire Blast. Even if those traits are not enough for Moltres to escape from the shadow of Tornadus and its other flaws, Moltres and Tornadus form a destructive Hurricane combo when combined together, where Moltres weakens the Pokemon that would prevent Tornadus from cleaning up late-game or vice-versa, with Tornadus sacrificing itself after using priority Tailwind to allow Moltres to sweep. In short, despite needing a ton of support to work, Moltres has two definite niches in OU: the ability to work as a wallbreaking partner for Tornadus and the ability to act as a powerful Agility sweeper under rain.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
    move 4: U-turn
    item: Choice Specs
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Moltres is tied with Tornadus for the most powerful Hurricane in OU, and with Choice Specs attached its power is phenomenal. To give an example of Moltres's power, offensive Heatran is always 2HKOed by Hurricane after Stealth Rock alone. In addition, Moltres's typing allows it to check some dangerous offensive threats that no other Hurricane user in OU can, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Lucario, and Volcarona. As with any Hurricane user, Moltres needs Drizzle support from Politoed to function properly. However, unlike most Hurricane users, Moltres has the ability to perform admirably under sun, as nothing except Heatran can take its Fire Blast; to make matters worse for opposing sun teams, Moltres gets many opportunities to switch in against Pokemon commonly found on sun teams, including Ninetales, Heatran, Volcarona, Xatu, and Venusaur. Hurricane is the move Moltres should be using most of the time, as it 2HKOes every Pokemon that doesn't resist it not named Blissey or Chansey. Under rain, Fire Blast will at worst 2HKO every Steel-type that can tank Hurricane, such as Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross, and will also OHKO Ferrothorn, which is a boon for rain teams that lack a way to quickly dispose of it. Fire Blast is also Moltres's main weapon against sun teams, as Moltres can find many opportunities to switch in and proceed to fire off sun-boosted STAB Fire Blasts. Hidden Power Ground OHKOes any Heatran while 2HKOing any Choice Tyranitar, but fails to do any significant damage to specially defensive variants of the latter. Hidden Power Fighting is used to 2HKO any Tyranitar and Heatran; offensive Heatran and Choice Scarf Tyranitar are even OHKOed after Stealth Rock. Hidden Power Ground is the superior move for the third slot, as it OHKOes its main target, Heatran, and U-turn deals with Tyranitar pretty well anyway, so hidden power ground is preferred over Hidden Power Fighting. In addition to dealing with Tyranitar, U-turn allows Moltres to scout for switch-ins from its counters. while also doing a fair bit of damage to Tyranitar.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Modest is the primary nature because the extra power gives Moltres certain OHKOs and 2HKOs. Specifically:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 SpD Heatran: 45.82 - 54.17%, sure 2HKO after Stealth Rock</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 49.49 - 58.19%, 67.97% chance to 2HKO</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs +2 SpD 0 HP Volcarona: 97.1 - 114.46%, 81.25% chance to OHKO</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 HP Garchomp: 100 - 118.15%</li>
    <li>Fire Blast (rain) vs 252 / 224+ Jirachi: 57.92 - 68.31%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Choice Specs is the optimum only item choice because of the huge power it provides and because Moltres should be using Hurricane most of the time anyway. The Speed EVs enable Moltres to outspeed Timid Heatran and OHKO it with Hidden Power Ground before it gets a chance to set up Stealth Rock. The 4 leftover EVs are thrown into Defense to better take priority. I don't really think the 4 EVs are worth explaining By using a Timid nature, Moltres gains the advantage of outspeeding max Speed Jolly Mamoswine, any Rotom-W without a Choice Scarf, Modest Landorus, Modest Kyurem, neutral natured Kyurem-B, Adamant Haxorus, and Modest Hydreigon.</p>

    <p>Sleep Talk is a viable option, as Moltres can easily switch into Breloom, Venusaur, and Amoonguss. Hidden Power Grass allows Moltres to OHKO offensive Rotom-W, 2HKO specially defensive Rotom-W, and 2HKO any Choice Tyranitar after Stealth Rock. Sharp Beak is an option if one prefers the freedom to change moves and the ability to use Roost, which is very handy in some situations. When using Sharp Beak, U-turn should be dropped to make room for Roost. Life Orb can be used over Sharp Beak if you find that any move other than Hurricane lacks power, but the Life Orb recoil, Stealth Rock damage, and any other damage that Moltres may receive will leave it wanting to use Roost all the time, having little time to actually attack, which contradicts the purpose of the set.</p>

    <p>Politoed is mandatory as a teammate to make Moltres's Hurricane 100% accurate. A way to get rid of Stealth Rock is also obligatory when using Moltres, which means using either Rapid Spin or Magic Bounce support. Starmie and Tentacruel are spinners that work the best with Moltres and are the best spinners for rain teams too; Starmie is usually the option for more offensive teams, and can revenge kill some Pokemon that outspeed and OHKO Moltres, such as Terrakion, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo, while Tentacruel is the option for more balanced teams, and still deals with many Pokemon that trouble Moltres such as Keldeo, Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Politoed. In return, Moltres can take Ground-, Bug-, and Grass-type attacks aimed at Starmie and Tentacruel and beat Pokemon that they hate facing, such as Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Amoonguss. Even Custap Berry Forretress with Rapid Spin can be used on offensive rain teams as keeping Stealth Rock off the field for even the first few turns that Forretress leads can give to Moltres enough time to do its job. As for Magic Bounce users, neither Espeon nor Xatu work particularly well with Moltres in rain teams, but they are both options if Moltres is used on an offensive VoltTurn teams, the only team archetype in which the Magic Bounce Pokemon will manage to keep Stealth Rock off the field for any period of time. Tornadus is the best offensive partner for Moltres and the combination of the two is the main reason to use Choice Specs Moltres in OU. Tornadus forms a dual Hurricane combo with Moltres and together they break down Flying-type resists and, in general, wear down each other's counters. Life Orb Tornadus with Superpower and Tailwind is the best variant to use alongside Moltres, as it can reliably beat Blissey, Chansey, Heatran, and Tyranitar, while Moltres weakens Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos, as well as handling Jirachi, Bronzong, Scizor, Skarmory, and sun teams, occasionally leading to a late-game sweep of either Hurricane user. Additionally, Tornadus can use use Tailwind before going down, giving Moltres three turns to wreack havoc with Hurricane and often allowing it to clean weakened teams. Finally, both Tornadus and Moltres can bring each other in safely with U-turn against Pokemon that trouble one of the two but fear the other.</p>

    <p>There are also some more optional partners for Moltres. Dugtrio is of great help to Moltres, as Moltres can bring it in safely with U-turn, allowing it to trap and eliminate Heatran and Tyranitar, winning the weather war in the case of the latter and removing some of Moltres's counters. Terrakion, especially the Choice Band set, murders all of Moltres's checks and counters, making it a great teammate. Celebi has amazing defensive synergy with Moltres, checking Pokemon such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Calm Mind + Substitute Jirachi, and Starmie, while Moltres can get many free switch-ins via Celebi's U-turn against the many Steel- and Grass-types that Celebi attracts. Finally, specially defensive Jirachi can pass Wishes to Moltres with ease, as they have excellent defensive synergy, helping Moltres with its longevity problem, and can also take Rock- and Dragon-type attacks aimed at Moltres.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Agility
    move 1: Agility
    move 2: Hurricane
    move 3: Fire Blast
    move 4: Roost / Hidden Power Ground
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Agility transforms Moltres into a fearsome sweeper under both rain and sun, which after a turn of setup outspeeds the entire OU metagame, including Chlorophyll Venusaur in sun. Thanks to its typing, Moltres can force out and set up on dangerous and common Pokemon, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Technician Breloom, and Scizor, meaning that setting up won't be very hard as long as Stealth Rock is off the field. Hurricane OHKOes every single offensive Pokemon that doesn't resist it after Stealth Rock and has great neutral coverage, with only nine Pokemon that resist it in OU. Fire Blast compliments Hurricane perfectly, OHKOing even in rain some of the Pokemon that can take a Hurricane, such as Magnezone and Skarmory, and greatly damaging some of the rest, such as Jirachi and Metagross. It also gives Moltres a fearsome weapon against sun teams as well as a more accurate STAB move to use if neither rain nor sun are up. Fire Blast is also useful to OHKO Ferrothorn in rain, a quality that many rain teams struggle to find and really appreciate. Roost gives Moltres better survivability, allows allowing it to have better presence in early- and mid-game, and eases set up against Pokemon that Moltres walls, making any attempt of those Pokemon to stay in and wear Moltres down futile. Roost is also very useful in games where using Agility is not an option, either because Moltres and its teammates can't get past the opposing defensive core or because it is difficult for Moltres's team to keep Stealth Rock off the field, and allows Moltres to take the role of a wallbreaker and a check to problematic Pokemon. On the other hand, Hidden Power Ground forfeits all of those benefits to give Moltres better sweeping potential, as with it Moltres can OHKO offensive Heatran and deal 75% minimum to specially defensive variants, OHKO Jolteon after Stealth Rock most of the time, and hit Ninetales slightly harder and more reliably than Fire Blast.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Modest is the best nature for this set, as it allows Moltres to get a ton of important OHKOs, and Moltres already outspeeds every Pokemon in OU after an Agility. However, a Timid nature helps Moltres outspeed some dangerous threats without the need for an agility boost, such as neutral natured Kyreum-B and Hydreigon, Jolly Mamoswine, and Modest Celebi. Hidden Power Fighting OHKOes Choice Scarf Tyranitar after Stealth Rock most of the time and 2HKOes every other variant, while also hitting Heatran for good damage. Hidden Power Grass is useful to 2HKO any Rotom-W, dealing 68% damage minimum to 232 HP variants, and OHKO Gastrodon with a layer of Spikes while hitting Tyranitar for decent damage as well.</p>

    <p>Politoed is a mandatory teammate, as Moltres is a dedicated rain sweeper. Dugtrio is the next best partner, clearing the way for Moltres to sweep by eliminating Tyranitar and Heatran, weakening Jirachi to Fire Blast's KO range, and helping Politoed win weather wars. Gothitelle is another trapper that Moltres enjoys having as a teammate, especially variants with Grass Knot, which can weaken or eliminate the two weather inducers that Moltres dislikes, Tyranitar and Hippowdon. Gothitelle also wears down the defensive Water-types that can tank one Hurricane from Moltres, and can cripple Chansey and Blissery with Trick. When using Moltres, serious measures against Stealth Rock must be taken. Starmie and Tentacruel are both excellent spinners for rain teams, with Starmie putting up big offensive pressure and Tentacruel being a better dedicated spinner. Custap Berry Forretress with Rapid Spin is another great teammate for Moltres, setting up entry hazards and preventing Stealth Rock from getting up the first few turns, making it easier for Moltres to switch in at the early stages of the game. Although rarely seen on rain teams, Xatu is an option for very fast-paced offensive teams with other U-turn or Volt Switch users and can prevent Stealth Rock from getting up for a limited amount of time, which is fine considering that the game shouldn't last very long anyway. Agility Moltres is best used on offensive rain teams that have good momentum and pace control, where it is easy to keep Stealth Rock off the field by constantly attacking with Pokemon that are difficult to wall, meaning that the spinner that accompanies Moltres won't have to get rid of Stealth Rock very often.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A defensive set utilizing Substitute and Roost alongside Flamethrower and Hurricane or Toxic is the most viable Moltres set not already listed. Thanks to Pressure, Moltres can easily PP stall moves from Pokemon that would otherwise hurt it badly by alternating between Substitute and Roost, such as Stone Edge from Tyranitar and Hydro Pump from Rotom-W and Choice Specs Politoed. Such as set should run 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96 Spe with a Timid nature. This gives Moltres enough Speed to outrun positive-natured base 70s, such as Breloom and Politoed, and places the rest of the EVs into HP and Special Defense because Moltres's typing is better suited to take special hits. However, this set can be walled and rendered useless by many common Pokemon, such as Roar Heatran, Hippowdon, Jirachi sets with Calm Mind or Thunder, and Tentacruel, and is checked by many other Pokemon depending on the final move Moltres chooses to run. Its viability is also hurt pretty badly by Stealth Rock, as with Stealth Rock up it can't wall any of the threats that it otherwise could, and has to spend all of its time using Roost. Substitute can be used with Life Orb on the offensive set when running Roost to take advantage of Pressure and stall out moves that could hurt Moltres, scout faster switch-ins, and ease prediction, but between Substitute, Life Orb recoil, and Stealth Rock damage, Moltres will rarely find time to attack or heal. Choice Scarf is an option on the offensive set to enable Moltres to act as a moderately powerful revenge killer, but it is outclassed by pretty much any other revenge killer in OU due to a huge Stealth Rock weakness and a mediocre Speed stat. Lastly, an Agility set with Fire Blast, SolarBeam, and Hidden Power Ground is a viable option in sun teams and can act as a decent cleaner late-game, but faces a lot of competition from better sun sweepers, such as Volcarona, Venusaur, and Victini, and thus is generally outclassed.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>The best way to deal with Moltres is Stealth Rock, as with it on the field Moltres can only switch in three times at best. If the Stealth Rock setter is paired with Pokemon such as Choice Band Tyranitar or Choice Scarf Gothitelle, Moltres will have an even harder time coming in, as the two most common spinners paired with Moltres, Starmie and Tentacruel, are in danger of getting trapped. As far as traditional counters go, Chansey and Blissey are the only surefire counters to Moltres. Tyranitar and Heatran work too, but they both get hurt pretty badly by the appropriate Hidden Power, and Heatran can't do any immediate damage back to Moltres. Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos and Jirachi in rain are all good checks, but are prone to getting worn down (the first two lack reliable recovery while Zapdos is weak to Stealth Rock) except for Jirachi, and will lose if a Hurricane confusion occurs or will get 2HKOed by Fire Blast in Jirachi's case. Everything faster than Moltres that can take a hit and OHKO back and is an okay check, namely Choice Scarf Rotom-W, Jolteon, Thundurus-T, and Calm Mind Jirachi, as they can switch into Moltres once or twice and force it out. Finally, there are many offensive Pokemon that can revenge kill Moltres, including Keldeo, Latios, Starmie, and Terrakion, as long as Moltres hasn't used Agility.</p>

    [Unreleased]

    <p>Moltres gets Flame Body from the Dream World, a very useful ability that lets it burn physically based Pokemon that Moltres can easily switch into, such as Ferrothorn, Toxicroak, and Lucario, as well as U-turn users such as Scizor and Jirachi. Flame Body is almost always superior to Pressure, as Moltres only uses offensive sets that don't get any real benefit from Pressure.</p>
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Thx GCSChris, implemented whatever i found necessary.
  7. jumpluff

    jumpluff princess
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  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Thx jumpluff, implemented everything except for this:

    the ''and'' needs to stay as Zapdos and Jirachi are put in the same group because they both need rain up in order to check Moltres, otherwise they get OHKOed by Fire Blast.

    This is done!
  9. tehy

    tehy

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    Alex, if it's just those two, they need to be separated in some other way. Such as :Rotom-W and Rotom-H, as well as Zapdos and Jirachi in rain, are good checks. And even that's a little imperfect.
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Thx tehy, changed it according to what you suggested.
  11. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Uploading!

    Good work.

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