Moltres Suspect Discussion

[Oglemi]

What you're expected to do in this thread:

1. Post which sets you used in the round and what you found good about it, what beat it, etc.

2. Discuss Moltres's place in the tier, has the metagame adapted properly to it? Does it break the metagame? What counters are there to Moltres?

3. All Council members are expected to post their thoughts on, experiences using, and experiences against Moltres in this thread.

Me and SilentVerse are not set on what we're doing for non-Council members and whether or not we'll be having any allowed to vote. The reason for this is because of the PS! downtime and then the messed up ladder. Your posts here could help determine whether we want you to be a part of the vote or not!

 

[complete legitimacy]

In my opinion, Moltres is without a doubt the best Pokemon in RU. It 2HKOes nearly the entire metagame with Fire Blast and Hurricane alone, and not even Slowking is a counter anymore. It has a bunch of viable sets, from Life Orb to Choice Specs to SubRoost to SunnyBeamer. Almost anything slower than it is destroyed, and it has pretty good bulk for an offensive Pokemon too, meaning that Volt Switches from the likes of Scarf Rotom-C, Scarf Manectric, and Rotom don't KO it. Like I said before, it's easily the best Pokemon in the tier.

Its only two common counters are Lanturn and Munchlax, of which only the former is frequently used by the top players. However, Moltres has a huge number of checks, the best one being Stealth Rock. Losing half of your health to Stealth Rock alone is extremely crippling, even if Moltres is immune to all other entry hazards. Roost is good for healing the damage off, but if you can force Moltres out before it has a chance to heal, it's pretty much dead as long as you keep your hazards up (and in this metagame it's almost necessary to have a spinblocker). Moltres struggles against offensive teams though, since a lot if things carry a Rock-type attack. Almost all of the tier's Fighting-types use Stone Edge such as Unburden Hitmonlee, Primeape, and some Gallade. Entei also forces it out pretty nicely, since I don't think Life Orb Hurricane KOes without Stealth Rock, while even when Roosting Stone Edge does 80%. Accelgor, Sceptile, and Typhlosion all commonly carry Hidden Power Rock, and there are many Electric-types in the metagame that outspeed and KO Moltres, with or without a Scarf. Manectric is capable of KOing Moltres with an unboosted Thunderbolt, as is Rotom-C. Rotom naturally outspeeds Moltres, and is guaranteed an OHKO with Life Orb Thunderbolt, and Galvantula can use Thunder to dispose of Moltres. There are viable Aqua Jet users in the metagame as well, with Kabutops resisting both of Moltres's STAB moves, and Feraligatr having the bulk to take a Life Orb Hurricane. Although not a hard counter anymore, Slowking is still a strong check to Moltres and it'll probably continue to be on most teams. And while Hurricane gets it some crucial KOs, its god-awful accuracy means that you probably won't hit two or three in a row, and that can be taken advantage of.

The set I've used a lot between RUgged Mountain matches and PS! ladder play is the classic Life Orb set, most certainly Moltres's best set.

Moltres @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Hurricane
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Roost

I think we're all pretty familiar with how this set works, but I'll go over it quickly anyway. Fire Blast is still your best STAB move because of its superior coverage and accuracy, and bits most things pretty hard. Hurricane should be used sparingly from my experiences, since you can't really count on it, but it's still really useful to 2HKO Slowking after Stealth Rock and OHKO Gallade. HP Grass hits the same things that it has in the past, such as Kabutops, Rhydon, Omastar, and Lanturn. It's also good for when you can't afford a miss. Roost is the key to the set though, and using it at the right time often makes the difference between a sweep and dying. Moltres can destroy almost everything with the appropriate move, but it can be played around. A lot of the time there's no need to predict when using it, since you can use Hurricane when you're in against Tangrowth and never pay for it even if they switch to Slowking since you 2HKO that too. It hardly ever sweeps though, because everyone carries a Moltres check. I typically only get a kill or two per game, but games have been decided on Moltres Speed ties.

Honestly, I'm not completely decided on Moltres, but as of now I wouldn't choose to ban it. Right now there's nothing that makes me think it should be banned, so by default I think it shouldn't be banned. Feel free to try and change my mind though.

 

[Ningildo]

Well, I'm a bit on the fence regarding Moltres. At one hand, you have something that has excellent dual STABs, base 125 Special Attack and the one type that does resist it's STABs (Rock) isn't known for having stellar Special Defense, not to mention reliable recovery. On the other, A 4x SR weakness and weak to Aqua Jet and multitude of powerful priority (CB Entei Extremespeed, LO Absol Sucker Punch) make checking it often easy.

However, unless you have something like CB Spiritomb to take out Cryo (one of the most common spinners in RU), SR isn't gonna be staying up long. And even then, Moltres has access to reliable recovery mentioned earlier, making wearing Moltres down a hard task.

The few things that do counter it, though, do it good. Slowking and Lanturn can stop Moltres in it's tracks with ease (assuming Hurricane does hit twice) and retaliate with Scald/Surf. Slowking even has Regenerator to do this again and again.

I'm still not sure what to say after recapping the facts, seeing even without a solid check I didn't have too much trouble with it. Then again, the ladder isn't exactly the best place to judge that (someone using 3 mons weak to SR and no spinner, wtf), so I would need to battle some of the more skilled players while they are using Moltres.
I'll pick a side a bit later.

 

[/B/utterfree]

I used the same set as completelegitimacy for multiple rounds. Of course, I kept Air Slash out of preference (extra PP and flinch chance), although I do admit that Hurricane allows Moltres to blow some of its "checks" away completely (2HKOing Slowking, for example, is nothing to ignore).

I was convinced that Moltres was absurdly powerful for the tier it was in months ago. I made a RMT dedicated to getting Moltres booted up that did not seem to do its job effectively on PO (completelegitimacy even gave me the Life Orb set over a SubRoost set!). The reason? Sweepers be running Hidden Power Rock exclusively to deal with Moltres (when it was otherwise crappy)! Most of the sweepers running HP Rock are better off running Hidden Power Ice, Hidden Power Fire, Hidden Power Ground, etc. The tier is slowly overcentralizing when people depend on one Pokemon (Lanturn) to handle the most powerful Pokemon in RU (and this is coming from a former pyrophobe - I know Moltres' power, for I've also had my team handed to me on a silver platter by it multiple times, and it did not matter what kind of team it was).

I am just as on the fence; because Moltres is centralizing the metagame, that also means its weaknesses will be more readily exploited. I, however, am heavily on the side of banning Moltres. Its cons do not balance its pros at all, as many of its checks can be worked around easily (Stealth Rock? Meet Cryogonal/Kabutops, and STAY OUT OF MY TEAM'S SIDE!).

Unless Regirock and other Pokemon start showing up to RU out of the blue, I'm staying on the side of banning it completely.

 

[Molk]

Although Moltres has always been a powerful force in RU, I do not feel that it is bannable, sure it hits very hard, and has few counters, but there are many effective ways to deal with it. The first and most important thing i would like people to consider about Moltres is that its typing kinda shoots itself in the foot. Fire / Flying is NOT a good defensive typing, a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, common weaknesses to water, electric, and rock, as well as ground when roosting. Due to Moltres's 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, it has to be paired with a rapid spinner to be used to its full potential, admittedly the best spinner in RU (Kabutops) has good synergy with Moltres, but if you can manage to stop your opponent from using Rapid Spin, it shouldn't be as much of a problem. Not to mention that you're forced to spin before Moltres comes out. With Stealth Rock on the field, it is hard to get Moltres in safely, and even if it does get in safely, it's at a crippling 50% health which makes it have to use Roost in some situations where it may need to attack. It's not as if Moltres has a complete lack of checks or even hard counters either; there are many ways to stop Moltres. From a defensive perspective, Lanturn, Slowking, Munchlax and Regirock can easily switch in on moltres and either cripple it with thunder wave or body slam, or simply KO it with Scald or Rock Slide. Rhydon is also a good check, as with a specially defensive ev spread it can take an hp grass, and doesnt really care about Moltres's other attacks. In addition, if Moltres has Substitute, Rhydon can also break through it with Rock Blast. Offense doesn't have an inordinate amount of trouble either, many offensive pokemon can at least revenge kill Moltres. Aerodactyl, Kabutops, Feraligatr, Entei, Rotom and random pokemon like Accelgor and Sceptile that run Hidden Power rock keep Moltres in check. Another point i would like to make is that Moltres's most powerful STAB moves are very inaccurate, while Hurricane
buffed moltres to the point that this thread could be posted, it is also molt's worst enemy, the chance of hitting two hurricanes in a row is actually pretty low(49%). From personal experience i havent had much trouble with moltres despite not having a solid counter, and i dont feel its bannable.

TL;DR: Moltres is a top threat in the RU metagame, but not broken.

Also, the mighty geodude beats moltres 1 vs 1!

subroost 2 hard to beat

21:48 Texas SubRoost is practically unstoppable

Hide

3 attacks roost moltres is really hard to stop guys"]http://pastebin.com/VjQAt8ZG

<--- nosepath 2 gud

logs are just something i did for fun

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I've used Moltres extensively in the metagame, and I believe that Moltres should not be banned from the RU tier.

I have very high standards when it comes to banning a Pokemon; I only believe a Suspect is broken if it is far too powerful to exist in a balanced metagame, i.e., that the Pokemon unbalances the metagame. Moltres does not unbalance the metagame; I would further argue that Moltres isn't even the most powerful RU threat at the moment.

RU is a rather balanced tier at the moment because a myriad of playstyles are viable, and Moltres does not overly restrict the metagame such that the metagame revolves around Moltres. Moltres has numerous counters, the first of which being the ubiquitous Stealth Rock. Stealth Rock is definitely a common battle condition, and unless Moltres is being used in the lead slot, it's going to lose half its health just by switching in. Therefore, as long as Stealth Rock is active on the Moltres user's side, it immediately becomes so frail that it will be OHKO'd by any decently powerful neutral STAB, especially with Life Orb. If Moltres is running Leftovers, then it is not able to contend with its former #1 counter, Slowking. If Moltres decides to run Life Orb, then it becomes incredibly easy to revenge kill by the likes of Absol, Spiritomb, etc. Using Moltres forces the use of a Spinner, and Rapid Spinning in RU is a bit of a crapshoot. The two best Spinners in RU are Cryogonal and Kabutops, and the two best spinblockers are Cofagrigus and Spiritomb. Kabutops can have trouble getting worn down by Cofagrigus, and Cryogonal is laughed at by Spritomb. Consequently, whether the Moltres user will be able to Spin is largely dependent on team matchup, meaning that spinning is not guaranteed even if the Moltres user plays well.

Furthermore, Moltres has counters. Lanturn does exceedingly well at defeating Moltres as long is it doesn't switch into a Life Orb Hidden Power Grass. Moltres does not use HP Grass often as well, so when Lanturn comes in against Moltres Lanturn's going to win almost every time. Sure, we can think of obscure scenarios where Moltres comes out on top, but much more often than not Lanturn's countering Moltres.

Moltres has a bit of a Speed problem as well. Nineteen Pokemon in RU have a higher base Speed than Moltres, and virtually all of them (all but Entei, who runs an Adamant nature) will run enough Speed to get the drop on Moltres (besides Support Uxie and Cryogonal sometimes). Furthermore, almost every one of those Pokemon has the means to drop Moltres in one hit with SR support, and many of them can do it without the floating rocks backing them up (well except for Whimsicott but only noobs run that thing anyway. Whimsicott could always paralyze Tres with Stun Spore.).

Plenty of Pokemon can take Fire moves in RU, especially the Bulky Waters such as Slowking, Lanturn, and Poliwrath. If Moltres tries to pick off a Bulky Water such as Slowking or Lanturn with Hurricane, it actually has a better chance of missing at least once than hitting both times. So things that Moltres "reliably" beats 1v1 can turn into a defeat for the phoenix more often than not if Moltres relies on Hurricane too much.

Plus wartortle only takes 50% MAX against Moltres so gg.

 

[august]

Moltres @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Hurricane
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Roost

Moltres has always been a big threat in the RarelyUsed tier, but with the addition of Hurricane, Moltres is even more deadly. Slowking, the pokemon formerly used to counter Moltres, can no longer switch in unless it predicts a Fire Blast, and even then will still have trouble. Hurricane makes Lanturn probably the only full fledged Defensive check to Moltres, and even then, Lanturn takes a considerable amount from Hidden Power [Grass].

However, you all know the deal with Moltres. Stealth Rock. Stealth Rock keeps Moltres in check and also forces you to carry a Rapid Spinner on the team you are using it on. While Kabutops is a very good team mate for Moltres, it cannot always keep Stealth Rock off the field, and the formerly very popular Defensive Rapid Spinner, Cryogonal, seems to be dropping in usage. Even with Kabutops/Cryogonal though, it is impossible to guarantee you will spin in RU, where nearly every team has a spinblocker (except mine i guess im weird?), and for that reason alone i think Moltres is easily checkable.

Priority/faster pokemon/scarvers are also solid checks to Moltres as well. The aforementioned Kabutops can switch into Fire Blast pretty easily and Hurricane if it hasn't taken too much prior damage (Hurricane does around 70%) and threaten to do a lot of damage with a Life Orb boosted Aqua Jet. This will not OHKO Moltres if it is at 90%, but will check it effectively and may even KO it after it takes Life Orb recoil. Choice Band Entei's Extreme Speed is also another solid way to check it, as well as Feraligatrs Aqua Jet, and with proper prediction, Absols Sucker Punch. Faster Scarvers, such as Manectric, Rotom-c, Braviary etc can force Moltres out, but have trouble directly switching in. Faster pokemon like Tauros and Sceptile also do a decent job at checking Moltres with Stealth Rock down.

Also Hurricane has some pretty shitty accuracy (Flying-type Focus Blast), so its not like Moltres is always going to beat bulky waters like Slowking, and LO Moltres in general is very vulnerable to misses from Fire Blast/Hurricane.

So my main points
-Stealth Rock weak still hampers it. Many teams carry spinblockers. Essentially Moltres forces you to carry Cryo/Kabutops
-Priority checks it even if you can't keep Rocks up. Entei/Kabutops mainly.
-Lanturns rising popularity hampers it slightly
-Very prone to misses
-Pokemon like Sceptile, Accelgor, Lilligant etc have began carrying Hidden Power [Rock] to defeat Moltres
-Checked by faster pokemon

Overall I think Moltres is very strong, but in the end i think it is just a good pokemon. Nothing broken about it. Just a good RU monster

There's about a 50% chance of two Hurricanes hitting in a row, and Slowking would have to come in on Hurricane in the fist place.

i believe sr + hurricane + hp grass koes the standard so i think you'd only have to hit 1

 

[Cherub Agent]

I agree mainly with what's already been said. Moltres DOES have a counter in Lanturn, and Hurricane misses far too often to say that Slowking can no longer counter Moltres. There's about a 50% chance of two Hurricanes hitting in a row, and Slowking would have to come in on Hurricane in the fist place. Then there's obvioulsy the fact that Moltres is crippled by SR and isn't exactly fast. Not broken in my opinion

 

[TheMexican]

Everything that needed to be said has been said; Moltres weaknesses to stealth rocks, the way priority and faster mons that carry electric or rock attacks check it, and how Munchlax and Lanturn check it defensivly are the reasons why Moltres should not be banned. I just would like to add how some of Moltres sets work and are countered.
Here's the first one:
Moltres @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Hurricane / Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Roost

As complete legitimacy said, this is probably Moltres' best set, having very few defensive checks, which the only one is Munchlax. This set is mostly to come in safetly against something it wouldnt harm it and start wreking stuff with its stabbed strong attacks and roost if you got into rocks or if you got enough life orb recoil (if you are using Leftovers, you are doing it wrong). Everybody knows how this set works, and most people know how to counter it since its the most used set it runs. Mostly revenge killing with either scarf, priority, or simply faster pokemons with a super effective attack. Its wide coverage and amazing attack makes it hard to switch in tho, that's for sure, but with rocks up it wont by coming in and out too much, even with roost, it wont have enough time to recover. Imo the hardest set to check, which takes us to:

Moltres @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Flamethrower
- Subtitute
- Toxic
- Roost

This set tends to wall opponent's attacks with subroost and pressure like Stone Edge from non-aqua jet kabutops and/or toxic stall it to death. While it might seem "decent" in paper, it pretty much sucks imo. I mean, losing to geodude its no good and by only having flamethrower as your attack, it leaves you weak to lots of more stuff. Heal Bell lanturn laughs at this set, so does flareon. On another hand, pokes with rock blast like rhydon, cinccino and crustle beat him with ease.
Even if you manage to get sub up with all your health, its kinda hard to take, for example, to stone edges from aerodactyl in a row unless it misses, same goes from aqua jet users. Moltres just doesnt have the typing to act as a defensive mon.

I'll go over the other sets tomorrow. In either case, my point is that Moltres is NOT broken and it shouldnt be banned.

 

[DittoCrow]

The two best sets in my opinion are:

Moltres @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Roost
- Hurricane
- Fire Blast

and

Moltres @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Hurricane
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Roost

I wouldn't have even considered Moltres broken before BW2, but now that it has Hurricane, it can beat its (ex)main counter: Slowking. Right now, the best counter to Moltres is Lanturn, and that even has a good chance to be 2HKOed by Hidden Power Grass after Stealth Rock. However, having few counters or checks does not mean that something is broken. Moltres will usually lose 50% from switching in due to Stealth Rock, causing it to be forced to Roost or it will otherwise be taken care of much more easily. Furthermore, many common Pokemon have moves that deal super effective damage to Moltres, some even having priority (Kabutops, Feraligatr, etc.). I haven't had a problem with Moltres yet as there are a lot of things that can OHKO or wear it down, but I do think it's a bit overpowered. I don't really care if it stays in the tier or not.

Slowking :(

 

[spuds4ever]

Moltres is definitely one of the best pokemon in the tier and seeing as its only fool proof counter is something like specially defensive regirock and munchlax (who would be NU now if it wasn't for moltres most likely), it's probably one of the largest if not the largest pains for stall, especially considering how difficult spin-blocking can be in RU with the most popular spinner being at the same time the most dangerous SD sweeper in the tier and the other being an amazing spin-blocker counter.

While 90 speed and common weaknesses isn't really an issue for offensive teams, I just find things like stall are going to be perpetually discouraged by this guy's presence in RU.

With things like nidoqueen and escavalier having dropped down and just being in general extremely dangerous as well as good partners with moltres, I really think RU's little stall interest would seriously benefit from the chicken leaving as the combo of nido and moltres is absurdly hard to stop, as molk showed in his recent RMT.

I'm not sure if moltres is banned in its own right, but I do think that it brings a slightly unhealthy center to the tier. I haven't played loads of RU, though, so a fair bit of this is speculating to be fair.

 

[Bigblue]

I would love to vote but I would understand if it is only given to council members.

Now getting to the case of Moltres, wow this is finally happening and all I can think is WHY? I really don't believe moltres should be up for suspect and these are my reasons why.

Moltres @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Grass]

I know that this moltres set doesn't pack the power of fireblast, hurricane or Modest nature but I don't really care. I have always used and loved moltres in RU and I find this set works the best for me even though it is the weakest viable set for moltres. It works really well for killing walls with super effective moves like flamethrower to roselia's face or getting poliwrath with an air slash but these opportunities are rare and far between and it is much stronger for outspeeding and destroying other threats like sceptile and gallade. Not to mention that moltres also holds reasonable bulk which means that it can take on things that hit as hard it does except it isn't frail meaning it will win many fights.

With all these amazing traits plus many not said such as immune to willowisp and taking away that weakness with roost two huge things hold it back from even being suspect in my opinion. Firstly as almost everyone knows in pokemon stealth rocks destroys moltres and is basically the best and most common check for it. And the difference with this than nidoqueen is that with nidoqueen you have completely change teams to counter it while with moltres almost every team should pack stealth rocks. The other thing that makes moltres not remotely suspect material is just the sheer number of pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO or 2HKO it. The list includes the various faster electric types such as manectric, galvantula, rotom and electivire. Other things that win with access to rock moves include accelgor, sceptile, lilligant(I know it is slower until QD is up), Aero, Archeops, Primeape and Scolipede. Not to mention the various water types like Feraligatr, Kabutops and Focus sash omastar. And to further elaborate on things that check it include slowking, lanturn, munchlax. Finally things with strong priority like Absol Entei and Spiritomb also win once SR are setup.

This huge list of ways to deal with it are just a testament to why moltres needs to stay as it holds interesting place with amazing bulk in combo with average speed and huge spec attack being an asset to any team but playing around stealth rocks will always be key to winning with moltres.

 

[Explorer]

Moltres @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Grass]

First of all, why would anybody use Flamethrower over Fire Blast on this set?

Second of all, Moltres DOES have that major SR weakness, but it is very hard to take down, especially when it uses Substitute, and most phazers are severely hurt or OHKOed before they phase out Moltres's Substitute. Base 125 Special Attack and those 120-BP STABs (often further powered by a Life Orb) just make it almost too powerful for RU. Fire/Flying/Grass is also very good 3-move coverage and makes Moltres even more powerful, along with its ability to use Roost.

 

[Rakan]

First of all, why would anybody use Flamethrower over Fire Blast on this set?

Second of all, Moltres DOES have that major SR weakness, but it is very hard to take down, especially when it uses Substitute, and most phazers are severely hurt or OHKOed before they phase out Moltres's Substitute. Base 125 Special Attack and those 120-BP STABs (often further powered by a Life Orb) just make it almost too powerful for RU. Fire/Flying/Grass is also very good 3-move coverage and makes Moltres even more powerful, along with its ability to use Roost.

Fire Blast can miss, and a miss can mean the difference between a win and a loss. In most cases, Fire Blast is better for its greater Base Power, but its low PP and accuracy can be incredibly infuriating at times.

 

[-Tsunami-]

Oh yeah, Moltres. I didn't even remember this thing was a suspect considering everyone and their mother is bitching like fuck over Nidoqueen. Oh well.

Alright so, apparently this is what happens when you give a previously average / relatively good Pokemon a 120 Base Power / 70% accuracy STAB move. Good to know. Anyway, I find this thing to be fine in RU. This is due to the existence of Pokemon such as Lanturn. Lanturn walls Moltres to hell and back, and can Volt Switch out if you switch Moltres out against it. Not to mention, it's not like Nidoqueen vs. Slowking, as Fire Blast + Hurricane does not come close to knocking out Slowking. It's weakness to Stealth Rock is also a major problem. It is also relatively easy for offensive teamsto deal with since revenge killing it isn't that hard because it only has base 90 speed. Therefore, I'm going to say that Moltres should not be banned :)

please don't kill me

 

[Bigblue]

First of all, why would anybody use Flamethrower over Fire Blast on this set?

Second of all, Moltres DOES have that major SR weakness, but it is very hard to take down, especially when it uses Substitute, and most phazers are severely hurt or OHKOed before they phase out Moltres's Substitute. Base 125 Special Attack and those 120-BP STABs (often further powered by a Life Orb) just make it almost too powerful for RU. Fire/Flying/Grass is also very good 3-move coverage and makes Moltres even more powerful, along with its ability to use Roost.

I explained that I prefer accuracy over power, the end.

 

[blarajan]

For the record, Flamethrower is vastly superior to Fire Blast. Fire Blast is just as strong as Hurricane, so if you need to use Fire Blast against something in particular for the damage, just use Hurricane. Having an actually reliable STAB move on Moltres means the world. Whatever you actually have to hit with Flamethrower (Escavalier, Tangrowth, Lilligant, Aggron, etc) is OHKOed anyways. You really don't need Fire Blast. The reliability of Flamethrower is impossible to give up, since Fire Blast is entirely redundant with Hurricane.

 

[Bigblue]

For the record, Flamethrower is vastly superior to Fire Blast. It's just as strong as Hurricane, so if you need to use Fire Blast against something in particular for the damage, just use Hurricane. Having an actually reliable STAB move on Moltres means the world. Whatever you actually have to hit with Flamethrower (Escavalier, Tangrowth, Lilligant, Aggron, etc) is OHKOed anyways. You really don't need Fire Blast. The reliability of Flamethrower is impossible to give up, since Fire Blast is entirely redundant with Hurricane.

It's good to see someone else agrees with me, I have gotten so much shit from random people about not using fireblast.

 

[TheMexican]

Moltres @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Roost
- Flamethrower
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Grass]

For the record, Flamethrower is vastly superior to Fire Blast. It's just as strong as Hurricane, so if you need to use Fire Blast against something in particular for the damage, just use Hurricane. Having an actually reliable STAB move on Moltres means the world. Whatever you actually have to hit with Flamethrower (Escavalier, Tangrowth, Lilligant, Aggron, etc) is OHKOed anyways. You really don't need Fire Blast. The reliability of Flamethrower is impossible to give up, since Fire Blast is entirely redundant with Hurricane.

He aint using Hurricane either. Just sayin.

 

[Bigblue]

He aint using Hurricane either. Just sayin.

Yep I know I was just commenting on flamethrower, and I see the appeal of hurricane behind sub but 70% is just such a shit accuracy.

 

[DittoCrow]

Hurricane is probably the reason why Moltres was even suspected because it is so powerful that it can overcome its ex-counters such as Slowking.

 

[blarajan]

The whole point of using Flamethrower is so you have a STAB move to fall back on when you don't want to risk a Hurricane miss. Fucking use Hurricane that's the whole point of Moltres...............

 

[DittoCrow]

Here's a recap of the arguments presented at the IRC discussion. Feel free to comment or add to the discussion (there will be another one on IRC tomorrow)!

Arguments to ban Moltres:

• None xD

Arguments against banning Moltres:

• Moltres has a 4x Stealth Rock weakness
• The Stealth Rock weakness and offensive nature of RU puts a lot of pressure on Moltres
• Moltres is forced to use Roost when Stealth Rock is up, as otherwise its switching abilities are limited
• Many teams carry Aqua Jet users, so Moltres is easily revenge killed
• Other priority such as Entei's ExtremeSpeed does a number on Moltres
• Lots of offensive Pokemon such as Manectric outspeed and can hit Moltres super effectively
• Many Pokemon run HP Rock just for Moltres (Sceptile, Accelgor, Tangrowth, etc.)
• Hurricane has terrible accuracy :p

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Many Pokemon run HP Rock just for Moltres (Sceptile, Accelgor, Tangrowth, etc.)

Wouldn't this be a case for banning? Not saying it should be banned or anything, I lack an opinion on the matter. It just seems like it would be a reason for it. Now if it was changed to say, "Many Pokemon can run HP Rock and deal with Moltres." Then yes it would be on the do not ban side.

 

[DittoCrow]

HP Rock is used to hit a lot of other things including Scyther, Galvantula, Braviary, Sigilyph Entei, and other Bug-, Flying-, and Fire-types. It's a pretty convenient move and doesn't really take up a moveslot most of the time.