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Moltres

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by alexwolf, Oct 10, 2012.

  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Moltres

    [Overview]

    <p>Moltres was always a bad Pokemon to use in OU. Losing 50% of its health from Stealth Rock, having a mediocre 90 base Speed, being weak to Electric-, Rock-, and Water-type moves, and being outclassed by the Fire-types of OU were the main reasons that Moltres never saw any real use. However, Moltres got Hurricane in BW2, giving it a reason to be used in OU. While it faces stiff competition with the tier's prime Hurricane user, Tornadus-T, Moltres has its own unique traits to distinguish it. These traits are a much stronger Hurricane, the ability to overcome Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross, OHKOing Ferrothorn in rain, unlike Tornadus-T, and lastly, the ability to easily switch into many Pokemon that sun teams carry, and from there punch holes with a stupidly strong Fire Blast. Even if those traits are not enough for Moltres to escape from the shadow of Tornadus-T and its other flaws, Moltres and Tornadus-T form a destructive Hurricane combo when combined together, where Moltres weakens the Pokemon that prevent Tornadus-T from cleaning up late-game. In short, despite needing a ton of support to work, Moltres has a definite niche in OU: the ability to work as a wallbreaking partner for Tornadus-T.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Hidden Power Fighting / Hidden Power Ground
    move 4: U-turn / Roost
    item: Choice Specs / Sharp Beak
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 44 SpD / 188 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Moltres is tied with Tornadus for most powerful Hurricane in OU, and with Choice Specs attached its power is phenomenal. To give you an example of Moltres's power, offensive Heatran is always 2HKOed by Hurricane after just Stealth Rock. In addition, Moltres's typing allows it to check some dangerous offensive threats, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Lucario, and Volcarona, that no other Hurricane user in OU can do. As with any Hurricane user, Moltres needs Drizzle support from Politoed to function properly. However, unlike most Hurricane users, Moltres has the ability to perform admirably under sun as nothing except Heatran can take its Fire Blast; to make matters worse for opposing sun teams, Moltres gets many opportunities to switch in against Pokemon commonly found on sun teams, namely Ninetales, Heatran, Volcarona, Xatu, and Venusaur. Hurricane is the move Moltres should be using most of the time, as it 2HKOes every Pokemon not named Blissey or Chansey that doesn't resist it. Fire Blast will at worst 2HKO every Steel-type under rain that can tank Hurricane, such as Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross, and OHKOes Ferrothorn, which is a boon for rain teams, as many rain teams lack a way to quickly dispose of it. Fire Blast is also Moltres's main weapon against sun teams, as Moltres can find many opportunities to switch in against sun teams and proceed to fire off sun-boosted STAB Fire Blasts, pulling its weight even in sun. Hidden Power Fighting is used to 2HKO any Tyranitar and Heatran; more specifically, offensive Heatran and Choice Scarf Tyranitar are always OHKOed after Stealth Rock. Hidden Power Ground OHKOes any Heatran, while 2HKOing any Choice Tyranitar, but fails to do any significant damage to specially defensive variants of the latter. U-turn allows Moltres to scout for switch-ins from its counters, Chansey, Blissey, and Tyranitar, while also doing a fair bit of damage to Tyranitar. Roost gives Moltres the ability to heal off Stealth Rock damage and survive longer.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Modest is the primary nature because the extra power gives Moltres certain OHKOs and 2HKOs. Specifically:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 SpD Heatran: 45.82 - 54.17%, sure 2HKO after Stealth Rock</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 184 HP Rotom-W: 51.56 - 60.62%, 94.14% chance to 2HKO</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs +2 SpD 0 HP Volcarona: 97.1 - 114.46%, 81.25% chance to OHKO</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 SpD Dragonite: 96.9 - 114.24%</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 56 HP Gyarados: 90.72 - 107.24%</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 HP Garchomp: 100 - 118.15%</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 252 HP Skarmory: 62.87 - 73.95%</li>
    <li>Fire Blast (rain) vs 252 / 224+ Jirachi: 57.92 - 68.31%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Choice Specs is the main item because of the huge power it provides, and because Moltres should be using Hurricane most of the time anyway. However, Sharp Beak is an option if one prefers the freedom to change moves and the ability to use Roost, which is very handy in some situations. The Speed EVs enable Moltres to outspeed Timid Politoed and Jolly Breloom, both of which are OHKOed by Hurricane. With 44 EVs in Special Defense Choice Scarf Genesect gets an Attack boost against Moltres and cannot OHKO with Thunderbolt, while Moltres OHKOes back with either STAB move. When using Hidden Power Ground with a Modest nature, running max Speed is an option to outrun Timid 252 Speed Heatran and Smeargle. By using a Timid nature Moltres has the advantage of outspeeding max Speed Jolly Mamoswine, Timid Rotom-W, Modest Kyurem, neutral natured Kyurem-B, Adamant Haxorus, and Modest Hydreigon. With a Timid nature, Moltres should use this spread: 248 SpA / 44 SpD / 216 Spe. This spread gives it enough Speed to outrun Modest Hydreigon, 44 SpD EVs for Genesect, and places the rest of the EVs in Special Attack. Hidden Power Fighting is the superior third move because removing Tyranitar from the game is more vital to Moltres's success than removing Heatran.</p>

    <p>Sleep Talk is a viable option as Moltres can easily switch into Breloom, Venusaur, and Amoonguss. Hidden Power Grass allows Moltres to OHKO offensive Rotom-W, 2HKO specially defensive Rotom-W, and 2HKO any Choice Tyranitar after Stealth Rock. Life Orb can be used over Sharp beak if you find that any move other than Hurricane lacks power, but the Life Orb recoil, Stealth Rock damage, and any other damage that Moltres may receive will leave it wanting to use Roost all the time, having little time to actually attack, which contradicts the purpose of the set.</p>

    <p>Politoed is mandatory as a teammate, obviously, to make Moltres's Hurricane 100% accurate. A way to get rid of Stealth Rock is also obligatory when using Moltres, which means using either Rapid Spin or Magic Bounce support. Starmie and Tentacruel are the spinners that work the best with Moltres and are the best spinners for rain teams too; Starmie is usually the option for more offensive teams, and can revenge kill some Pokemon that outspeed and OHKO Moltres, such as Terrakion, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo, while Tentacruel is the option for more balanced teams, and still deals with many Pokemon that trouble Moltres such as Keldeo, Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Politoed. In turn, Moltres can take Ground-, Bug-, and Grass-type attacks aimed at Starmie and Tentacruel, and beat Pokemon that they hate facing such as Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Amoonguss. As for Magic Bouncers, neither Espeon nor Xatu work particularly well with Moltres in rain teams, but they are both an option if one is using Moltres on an offensive VoltTurn team, which is the only team archetype in which the Magic Bounce Pokemon will manage to keep Stealth Rock off the field for any period of time. Tornadus-T is the best offensive partner for Moltres and the combination of the two is the main reason to use Moltres in OU. Tornadus-T forms a dual Hurricane combo with Moltres and together they break down Flying-type resists and, in general, can wear down each other's counters. Tornadus-T with Taunt is the best variant to use alongside Moltres, as it can beat Blissey, Chansey, Heatran, and Tyranitar, while Moltres weakens Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos, as well as handling Jirachi, Bronzong, Scizor, Skarmory, and sun teams. Additionally, both Tornadus-T and Moltres can bring each other in safely with U-turn. This allows Tornadus-T to easily clean whole teams late-game.</p>

    <p>There are also some more optional partners for Moltres. Dugtrio is of great help to Moltres, as Moltres can bring it in safely with U-turn allowing it to trap and eliminate Heatran and Tyranitar, winning the weather war in the case of the latter and giving Moltres an opening to wreak havoc. When using Dugtrio, Moltres also puts Choice Scarf Genesect in a checkmate position, as the only way that Genesect can KO Moltres is with Thunderbolt, and if it does that, it gets trapped and KOed by Dugtrio. As long as Genesect doesn't use Thunderbolt, Moltres can act as a great switch-in, shielding your team from its other attacks. This fact makes Moltres a good lead against teams with Genesect, as most Genesect use Choice Scarf, and Genesect that do not hold Choice Scarf don't typically lead. Terrakion, especially the Choice Band set, murders all of Moltres's checks and counters, making for a great teammate. Celebi has amazing defensive synergy with Moltres, checking Pokemon such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Calm Mind + Substitute Jirachi, and Starmie, while Moltres can get many free switch-ins via Celebi's U-turn against the many Steel- and Grass-types that Celebi attracts. Finally, specially defensive Jirachi can pass Wishes to Moltres with ease, as they have excellent defensive synergy, helping Moltres with its longevity problem and also taking Rock- and Dragon-type attacks aimed at Moltres.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A defensive set utilizing Substitute and Roost alongside Flamethrower and Hurricane or Flamethrower and Toxic is the most viable Moltres set not already listed. Thanks to Pressure, Moltres can easily PP stall moves from Pokemon that would otherwise hurt it badly by alternating between Substitute and Roost, such as Stone Edge from Tyranitar and Hydro Pump from Rotom-W and Choice Specs Politoed. The following spread should be used with this set: 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96 Spe with a Timid nature. This spread gives Moltres enough Speed to outrun positive natured base 70s, such as Breloom and Politoed, and places the rest of the EVs into HP and Special Defense because Moltres's typing is better suited to take special hits. However, this set can be walled and rendered useless by many common Pokemon, such as Roar Heatran, Hippowdon, Calm Mind Jirachi or specially defensive Jirachi with Thunder, and Tentacruel, and is checked by many other Pokemon depending on the secondary move of choice Moltres chooses to run (Hurricane or Toxic). It is also hurt pretty badly by Stealth Rock, as with Stealth Rock up it can't wall any of the threats that it otherwise could and has to spend all of its time using Roost. Substitute can be used with Life Orb on the offensive set when running Roost to take advantage of Pressure and stall out moves that could hurt Moltres, scout faster switch-ins, and ease prediction, but between Substitute, Life Orb recoil, and Stealth Rock damage, Moltres will rarely find time to attack or heal. Choice Scarf is an option on the offensive set to enable Moltres to act as a moderately powerful revenge killer, but it is outclassed by pretty much any other revenge killer in OU due to a huge Stealth Rock weakness and a mediocre Speed stat. Lastly, an Agility set is a viable option in sun teams, and can act as a decent cleaner late-game, but faces a lot of competition from better sun sweepers such as Volcarona, Venusaur, and Victini, and thus is generally outclassed.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>The best way to deal with Moltres is Stealth Rock, as with it on the field Moltres can only switch-in three times at best, which hampers greatly its effectiveness. If the Stealth Rock setter is paired with Pokenon such as Choice Band Tyranitar or Choice Scarf Gothitelle Moltres will have an even harder time coming in, as the two most common spinners paired with it, Starmie and Tentacruel, are in danger of getting trapped. As far as traditional counters go, Chansey and Blissey are the only surefire counters to Moltres. Tyranitar and Heatran work too, but they both get hurt pretty badly by Hidden Power, and Heatran can't do any immediate damage back to Moltres, having to settle for poisoning it with Toxic or setting up Stealth Rock and phazing Moltres with Roar. Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos and Jirachi in rain are all good checks, but are prone to getting worn down, or lose if a Hurricane confusion occurs. Everything faster than Moltres that can take a hit is an okay check, namely Scarf Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, and Calm Mind Jirachi, as they can switch into Moltres once or twice and force it out. Finally, there are many offensive Pokemon that can revenge kill Moltres; Pokemon such as Keldeo, Latios, Starmie, and Terrakion will do the trick.</p>
  2. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast It hasn't been as nice at night these last few days
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    Just a side note: With a Timid nature, 232 Speed EVs ensures that you outspeed neutral base 100s and max Speed Timid Rotom-A, regardless of what Hidden Power you are running (hits 300 exact with a 30 Speed IV).

    Personally, I'd love to see SubRoost actually have a set on the analysis (I prefer defensive with 240 HP / 40 SpA / 228 Spe), but I'm not sure which set would be best and feel that adding both would just be overkill.

    What's quite low for an offensive 'mon? Speed?
  3. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Excellent start, alexwolf :d

    Can you also include the Agility set shown in afterburn's RMT in the analysis?
  4. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    I really don't like this set for a couple of reasons. First, you mention the set's main counters in OU are...two Pokemon in the top 10 of usage (Heatran, Tyranitar), another extremely common utility set in BW2 (Rotom-W), and the pink blobs (omnipresent on stall). I think I understand why I've never seen a Specs Moltres in OU before, and that's because some of the most common threats in the entire game wall it to hell and back.

    The other main problem with Moltres is its debilitating 4x Stealth Rock weakness. Other Pokemon have means of overcoming this; teams with Volcarona generally do a great job of keeping SR off the field, and Ho-Oh in Ubers has Regenerator to help cope with the health lost from switching into rocks. Moltres doesn't have either of these benefits. Furthermore, the set you're advocating here specifically lists U-Turn as one of the four necessary moves! This is completely backwards logic. Moltres has a really hard time switching in on rocks because it loses half its health automatically, so let's write up a set that advocates switching out so you can switch back in again and lose more health?!

    Not supporting this, ever. It's a big flaming chicken, and you want to run it on a Rain team. Let me direct you to the Swanna analysis...
  5. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    I'm thinking low=slow but he forgot the "s."

    You may want to emphasize a bit more how a Choice user having a Stealth Rock weakness really limits how many times he can do his job, since Moltres will always need to switch out if it wants to change moves. This is REALLY bad for a Pokemon with a Choice item that cannot be sent out in full effectiveness on the first turn (such as Yanmega - he works since he doesn't need rain). I'm not sure if Choice Specs is the best option tbh, since Moltres needs to stay in and wreck havoc or heal itself before it gets killed by more rocks and a priority move. I think Life Orb may be more effective with Roost > U-turn.

    Don't forget about Volcarona! You may want to say he is the only STAB Hurricane abuser, since Volcarona can also burn a bunch of Steel-types with its Fire-moves and gets Quiver Dance, too. Moltres does get the advantage of that STAB, but that needs to be emphasize since Volcarona is pretty much better in any other way.
  6. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    I read your post at the start, and my question to you is "why would you use a 4x SR weak Pokemon that has access to Roost without Roost?" Moltres is not like Volcarona who can sweep entire teams with a single boost, it is dependent on its bulk. This is why I think SubRoost is probably the best way to go with Moltres. Yes, Sub brings your health down even further, but the purpose is that if you're up against a Pokemon that you can't muscle past, you can generally just SubRoost stall them out. Set is:

    [SET]
    name: Offensive SubRoost
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Hurricane
    move 4: Fire Blast
    item: Sharp Beak / Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Pressure
    nature: Modest
    evs: 68 Def / 252 SpA / 188 Spe

    I'd also consider a defensive SubRoost set as well. I haven't really tried it in BW2 yet, but I remember using it in Excadrill meta (of all metagames, right?), and it actually worked pretty decently. The main perk, I think, is that unlike SubRoost Zapdos, Moltres can hit pretty much every Steel-type for super effective damage with Flamethrower, while Zapdos has trouble with Ferrothorn. The only Toxic-immune Pokemon Moltres can't super effectively is Tentacruel, which admittedly is a shame. I've seen it used pretty successfully on all kinds of teams, which makes it a pretty good choice.

    [SET]
    name: Defensive SubRoost
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Flamethrower
    move 4: Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Pressure
    nature: Bold
    evs: 248 HP / 72 Def / 188 Spe

    *188 Speed EVs allow you to outspeed max Speed Breloom for both sets.

    Finally, you REALLY need to address why you would use Moltres over Volcarona. The stuff you have currently in the OP doesn't cut it, IMO. You're comparing it to Hurricane abusers, but you left out Volcarona.

    Um... Rain Volc? Hello? Yes, I know Moltres gets STAB on Hurricane (please mention that!), but Volcarona also gets Quiver Dance and much more sweeping potential, so it's very much cancelled out. You REALLY need to emphasise Moltres' bulk, its resistances, as well as STAB on Hurricane. This kind of leads to why I don't think Agility should get a set. It's massively SR weak, walled by a number of enemies, and unlike Volcarona, who can also boost its speed in the sun, it doesn't flat out OHKO it's resists.

    tl;dr - Have a look into both SubRoost sets, I'm not very convinced about Specs, and no to Agility.
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Sure thing Pocket, will add the Agility set. The only reason that i didn't was that it seemed quite outclassed by TR Victini as a late game sweeper, but let's see what the QC team says.

    Will respond to everything in the next 24 hours.

    EDIT: Yeah as Swamp-Rocket said i forgot the s in low. Fixed this. Also mentioned that he is the only STAB Hurricane abuser that works well in Sun

    @Arcticblast

    I am not so sure about a defensive SubRoost set, assuming you mean one with Flamethrower / Toxic / Sub / Roost because of this reasoning. It seems pretty bad in theory, but i may do some testing. I will wait for more input on this one.

    @Lavos Spawn

    I think you are underestimating Moltres's power. Without even taking into account the HP of choice for Moltres, some pokes you listed as counters are really shaky. Let's see some examples. 33% of all Heatran are SpDefensive, which are the ones that wall Moltres. As showcased by the calcs, Moltres 2HKOes offensive Heatran with Hurricane after SR. Also most Rotom-W are either straight up offensive or run some HP evs that vary from 88 to 160 or something. And all those Rotom-W are 2HKOed at worst by Hurricane. SpD Rotom-W is quite rare, and this is the only one that stands a chance against Moltres. That is without even talking about Moltres's HP of choice. With HP Ground the number of pokes able to wall you falls down to Mixed Ttar, which btw can't OHKO, while you 3HKO back, SpD Rotom-W and the blobs. And the only common sets out of those are Mixed Ttar, Chansey and Blissey, a grand total of 3 pokes, all of who can be dealt by Tornadus-T or Dugtrio or Terrakion or whatever. Not saying that Moltes doesn't have counters, but if you have played with him ~100 games, as i have, you will see that he rarely gets walled.

    About U-turn. I am not so adamant about it being in the set, however i gotta admit that it is useful for Ttar and the blobs, especially if you pair it with Tornadus-T. It's use is really limited sure, but Moltres's options are already little. And just so this is clear, Moltres is not meant to abuse U-turn like most choiced mons, it is a move to use only use when you see a counter in the opposing team. If you want i can slash it with Flamethrower or whatever, or even put it last, slashed with Sleep Talk, and add the two HP in the third slot. So please don't get stuck on details, Moltres is not supposed to be a hit and run poke, he is mainly a wallbreaker and a check to Sun teams.

    You asked why you would use Moltres instead of other 4x SR weak pokes, that have ways to get around this weakness. Well there are 2, or 3 reasons, depending on how you see it. First of all, as i already mentioned, Moltres packs huge power in rain, and very few pokes can wall him, and most of them are easy to see coming, and thus easy to abuse (this is coming from experience, not theory). So the first reason is that he is a very good wallbreaker for Rain teams. So let's say you face an opposing stall team with any of SpD Jirachi, SpD Heatran and Blissey/Chansey. You rarely see more than one of them in the same team. And let's say you are using Moltres + Taunt Tornadus-T. Let's see how this combo deals with each special wall. If they have Blissey / Chansey as their answer to Hurricane spam, then simply weaken them/kill them with Tornadus-T, and then Moltres will have an easy time cleaning the rest of the team, if Torn-T fails. Against SpD Jirachi, send Moltres in when the time comes, and hit with for 60% damage with Fire Blast on the switch. Next time he will be unable to wall Torn-T. As i said each of the two Hurricane spammers can beat the other's counters, so they form a pretty potent wall breaking combo. Something to mention is that Moltres can do it's wallbreaking job vs defensive teams, even with SR up, as he only needs to predict right once, and bam the hole has been made on the defensive core for Torn-T to abuse.

    The second use of Moltres, that Volcarona cannot do, is to check/counter some big offensive threats. Lucario, Venusaur, Victreebel, Volcarona and even Ninetales are checked pretty good by Moltres but not by Volcarona.

    Finally with Choice Specs, Moltres packs much more immediate power than Volcarona, which makes a big difference in wallbreaking, and making holes in Sun teams. Volcarona cannot run a Specs set, because it gets walled by a lot of things, unlike Moltres.

    Anyway talk is talk, so i would advice you to test it out yourself. I am not saying it will be awesome, because it isn't. Personally i think that Moltres's niche is just big enough to get an analysis, but i can't say that i won't understand why someone wouldn't think that it deserves one. But one thing is sure, for such an underused poke, talk alone is not enough.

    @ Shrang

    Will respond tomorrow, because i am falling asleep :D
  8. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    You forgot Heatran

    Regardless, testing Agility and Specs Moltres sets, will post results when im finished
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    @Shrang

    BEWARE LONG POST AHEAD

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    I have tried offensive SubRoost Moltres with LO, actually it was the set that got me interested about Moltres, but it was a dissapointment. Usually on of two things happened. The opponent sent something that walled Moltres. such as Heatran, Chansey, Blissey or Tyranitar, so the only things that Sub would achieve is cut my lifespan while the opponent had one free turn to set-up SR when i had to Roost and then switch out. Or the opponent would sent in something faster such as Scarf Rotom-W, SubCM Jirachi and Jolteon in which case Sub would still just be a waste of 25% of my life, as i could just have attacked them right away instead of saccing 25% of my life to scout them, in addition to the 10% of Life Orb. Very few pokes try to stay into Moltres and status him, so Sub really does not accomplish much. Kyurem-W for example can abuse Sub very effectively because of its awesome bulk, and the ability to set-up on nearly every bulky water out there, which is huge, while also not being 4x SR weak.

    So after i got dissapointed by LO SubRoost i gave Specs to Moltres and never looked back. Instead of saccing Moltres's life to give a free turn to my counters, i just scouted them with U-turn, gaining a bit of damage and momentum, or straight up blasted through them with sheer power. I was also, ironically enough, much less prone to residual damage, because of no LO recoil and no Sub to waste my life. Yeah SubRoost gets Roost, but rarely has the time to use it. Why go through all the trouble of bringing Moltres in in the first place, if you are going to use Roost in the one turn that you are going to stay in? It is just not worth it. Simply use strong rapid spin support and a mighty Specs! Not to mention that with SubRoost you lose one of Moltres's selling points, the ability to check Volcarona, as with Life Orb/Sharp Beak, you can't OHKO +2 0 HP Volcarona most of the times, while it easily OHKOes back at +2.

    tl;dr offensive SubRoost Moltres sucks, and Specs does everything ti does better. Of 'course anyone is free to dispute this, but only people who have experience with it, as theorymoning just doesn't work with Moltres (as it doesn't work with many other underused mons).

    About Defensive SubRoost. While i haven't tried it, from theorymon alone i can see some things. First of all it is completely walled by Starmie, Tentacruel and Heatran, all of which are in the top 20 most used pokes. There is also Reuniclus, which is somewhat rare though. Second is it really good to have a Fire move as your only attack in a meta where Rain dominates? I really doubt it... The only poke right now in OU that gets away with it is Heatran, and guess why? Because it is one of the best defensive pokes in the tier, is immune to many forms of residual damage, checks/counters a hell of a lot of top tier threats, and fianlly can do something useful even with its STAB move weakened. It can set up SR, phaze or even fish for burns with Lava Plume.

    But what can Moltres do against a rain team? Starmie and Tentacruel, are on every rain team, be it offense or balance. And if this wasn't enough, many other common rain threats absolutely wreck you. For example SubCM Keldeo sets up on you if it manages to avoid Toxic in the switch. Taunt Tornadus-T wrecks your shit and doesn't really care about Toxic, because it is a hit and run poke. SubCM Jirachi uses you as set-up bait as Flametrhower in rain does only 20.79 - 25.24% to a +1 Jirachi, failing to break the Sub of a +1 Jirachi most of the times. SD Gliscor takes 22.31 - 26.55% from Flametrhower in rain and sets up easily.

    Even outside of Rain teams defensive SubRoost Moltres still seems to struggle. Rotom-W can frelly switch into you, take the Flametrhower / Toxic and then go to a faster mon that OHKOes (almost all) with Volt Switch. Heatran, which is everywhere, walls you and sets up SR in your face while phazing you. Latios doesn't care too much about Toxic and demolishes you. Not to mention that against offensive teams you will end up being almost useless. At least Specs Moltres can check some dangerous offensive threats such as Volcarona and Mamoswine, which SubRoost Moltres can't.

    All of that said though, will test defensive SubRoost Moltres, because otherwise i would contradict myself. As i said before, theory alone is not nearly enough for a poke so underused as Moltres.


    So to sum things up, i think from experience that offensive SubRoost Moltres sucks, and i also think that defensive SubRoost and Agility are pretty bad, but i will test them because i have to. More news coming soon...

    EDIT: shrang is right in that i have to highlight Moltres's pros over Volcarona, who seemingly outclasses the flaming chicken. I will be comparing Specs Moltres to Lefties Rain Volcarona, since only with Hurricane Volcarona can be directly compared with Moltres.

    Modest Hurricane Volcarona gets checked/countered by: SpD Jellicent, Protect Tentacruel with Toxic, any Terrakion, especially Scarf, SubDD Gyarados and RestTalk Gyarados, Ninetales, Heatran and the blobs, not counting scarfers. Moltres OHKO/2HKOes all of those pokes, most of them with Hurricane, and the rest of them such as Ninetales with Fire Blast. Yeah they get both countered by the blobs and Heatran, which btw Moltres can bypass with HP Ground, while Rain Volcarona doesn't have the slot to, but otherwise they have quite a lot different set of checks and counters. The main difference, which i have stated again, is that Moltres gets STAB on Hurricane in addition with the ability to use Specs, which means that it's Hurricane is almost 2.25% stronger than Volcaronas. This is the main difference, power! Another somewhat important pro of Moltres is that he can check some threats that Hurricane Volcarona cannot, such as SD Lucario, Scarf Victini, Victreebel, Volcarona, Venusaur and Ninetales. Oh and a minor thing, but Moltres cannot be trapped and killes by Dugtrio with Stone Edge, however rare that scenario might be.
  10. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I really can't say I'm a big fan of Moltres. I don't like offensive subroost as a strategy in general, I think defensive subroost is too easily walled, and I'm very hesitant to use that agility set; I'm not a huge fan of agility sweepers, and this one is SR weak and totally reliant on sun.

    Though I generally would not use Specs on an SR weak pokemon, in this case it is totally clear that you are going to need spin/magic bounce support anyway, so I think it may be a possibility. I'm still not optimistic though; I'm leaning towards entirely rejecting this at the moment.
  11. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast It hasn't been as nice at night these last few days
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    I actually used SubRoost with Hurricane over Toxic (basically, offensive moves with defensive EVs). It struggles more against bulky waters but works surprisingly well (confusion hax works too!). I even used it on a Rain team. (Planning on doing so again)
  12. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    So I just got back from testing Agility Moltres and i've got a few things to say about that set:

    note: I played over 40 matches with it

    Agility Moltres is bad, though this isn't overtly bad. It's the kind of "bad" that takes a while to sink in (~10 full matches until I realized how truly awful it was). I'll admit that it wasn't completely useless; it's typing allowed to switch into a bunch of pokemon (Volcorona and Genesect on average, for example), and its just bulky enough to avoid the OHKO from pretty any neutral hit at max health. Its very strong as well (capable of OHKOing standard Heatran with HP ground and Fire Blast basically blows up anything that takes neutral damage from it). Despite these advantages, it's still a bad sun sweeper. Everyone should use Agility Moltres at least once if they want to get into building good sun teams, because it's the perfect example of a sun Pokemon that does NOTHING against opposing weather types. Moltres is flat out useless against sand & rain teams. There is nothing it can do against Tyranitar or Politoed, since its STAB is worthless against them, Solarbeam is useless, and HP ground does a paltry amount of damage to either of them. Good Sand & Rain teams capitalize on Moltres, and punish your overall team with attacks.

    Keep in mind, Sun teams aren't exactly known for their defensive prowess either, they can't take "free" hits. I want you to know that I didn't just throw Moltres on a random sun-team either, I utilized Xatu & Dugtrio to maximize its effectiveness and it STILL languished. Not only did I have to contend with its low natural speed, even at +2 it wasn't sweeping through well built teams. I mean the other Sun Sweepers have their own flaws & limitations, but at the very least they all utility against opposing weather and chlorophyll. We didn't even talk about Volcorona who BADLY outclasses Moltres. Just use Moltres for 5-10 battles and you'll instantly understand what I mean.

    So I will not, under any circumstances approve Agility Moltres. The jury is still out on Specs Moltres (and the Sub sets?) but there's no way Agility is getting a pass.
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Ok PK removing the Agility set.

    And Arctiblast i will try out your set. What evs were you using?
  14. Tobes

    Tobes "The absolute strongest reindeer"
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    Hi I made a fairly lengthy post about Specs Moltres here.

    I'd say Specs Moltres is deserving of an analysis. It's viable in the sense that Ubers Cloyster is viable; it requires a lot of team support in order to function, but can deliver good results with that team support. I won't comment on the other sets since I don't have much experience with them.
  15. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast It hasn't been as nice at night these last few days
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    On defensive SubRoost, I was using this: (importable format, not analysis format)

    Moltres @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 240 HP / 40 SAtk / 228 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Substitute
    - Roost
    - Hurricane
    - Fire Blast

    228 in Speed hits 300 and outspeeds neutral base 100s (nothing is between there and Jolly Landorus-T, really...), and 240 in HP nets you (stat/4)+1 in case you switch in on Trick (2 SR switchins or 4 Subs if you lose Leftovers), although that was almost an arbitrary number and can easily be adapted. It's important to note that 40 EVs in Special Attack only does 81.25 - 97.44% to Sassy 168 Ferrothorn in the Rain, but this is a non-issue since it has no chance of beating you anyway.
    EDIT: That calc was with Life Orb, I forgot to change the item...

    I swear, this set helped me get out of my losing spree :D
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Added a list of everyones opinions so far about the sets. Tested defensive SubRoost a bit (~15 battles), and wasn't pleased with the results. Want to test a bit more, but i think it is not viable. Would appreciate feedback.

    So the only Moltres set that i haven't tried is the defensive SubRoost set with dual STABs, that Arcticblast suggested. Going to test this too in the next few days...
  17. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Okay, I went and tested Specs Moltres and to my surprise I actually found myself liking it. I'll probably end up approving it after I test another set. While it's working pretty well, I'm still rather put off by that 4x SR weakness. Maybe not Substitute, but have you considered slashing roost on either U-turn or HP Ground (probably HP Ground, U-turn is useful) and tried Roost + 3 Attacks, with something like Sharp Beak or something? One thing I really enjoyed about Moltres when I used it was its natural bulk and unique resistances (to U-turn, Fighting attacks, while completely trash-stomping Rock Polish special Landorus), and I really wished I could capitalise on that by letting Moltres have a recovery move. Maybe something like:

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: U-turn
    move 4: Hidden Power Ground / Roost
    item: Choice Specs / Sharp Beak
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Roost + 3 attacks will definitely get an AC mention in the specs set. However my main issue is that without Specs you lose quite a bit of needed power. For example you can't 2HKO SpD Jirachi in rain anymore, which sucks. You also can't OHKO 0 HP +2 SpD Moltres, meaning you fail to check a healthy Volcarona in rain. I am going to test your suggestion regardless, but i think that for 3 attacks + Roost, HP Ground / HP Fight are mandatory, as the coverage is really needed to make up for the lack of power, so U-turn should be given up for that set. U-turn is only useful for the blobs, Heatran, Ttar and Rotom-W anyway, and Heatran and Ttar are taken care of by the appropriate HP. So if we decide to include a Roost + 3 attacks to the Specs set, the set should look like this:

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
    move 4: U-turn / Roost
    item: Choice Specs / Sharp Beak
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
  19. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Yep, that looks good. I went and tested defensive Moltres today (just parked it on M Dragon's rain stall team) and it is really good. I stalled out Tyranitar, Terrakion, and a Landorus on the same team (somehow, although granted Lando was special), which sounds pretty much impossible lol. I'd definitely give it a good go. I ended up changing the EV spread on Arcticblast's set a bit because it doesn't need that much Speed, lol. I had:

    [SET]
    name: Defensive
    move 1: Substitute / Roar
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Hurricane
    move 4: Flamethrower
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 248 HP / 72 Def / 188 Spe

    I was using Roar because I needed a phazer, but Substitute is probably the best.
  20. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    So I tested Specs Moltres for a good 30 matches, & and asked a bunch of good BW players their thoughts and opinions on Moltres. End result? Specs Moltres is mediocre in BW OU. Not as bad as Agility Moltres, but not good enough deserve an analysis imo. The only good thing about Moltres was Specs Hurricane, which as I mentioned before isn't enough to save it from being utterly terrible. Specs Moltres suffers from the same flaws that Agility but to a lesser extent. It's dead weight against Sand-types, because Tyranitar absolutely destroys it. It can literally switch in for free, set up SR and put your team in a bad position because if you want to use Moltres again you're forced to spin. it's completely different from Volcorona who's usually used as an endgame cleaner. with moltres, its more effective if you bring it out constantly, and it simply can't do that because of its awful SR weak. It's not like you can immediately spin either. I'm just going to re-quote Tobes because he said it best.

    Lavos is completely right when he mentions that using U-turn is completely counter-intuitive to using Specs Moltres in the first place. And yet, i feel the need to constantly use it because i can't spam Hurricane as much as I want because of the existence of Tyranitar. It's also slow. Pathetically slow. 90 Base speed doesn't really get you anywhere in OU, since even if it conceivably kills something it's getting forced out immediately and if Rocks are up then Moltres is finished.

    If you're going to use a 4X SR weak Pokemon, then it damn well better be the best conceivable thing ever.

    So to sum it up:
    -Moltres is quad Stealth Rock
    -Moltres is slow
    -Moltres is ineffective against sand teams
    -Moltres is outclassed by better attackers. Tornadus-T is a much better choice on average, regardless of what you might say
    -Volcorona is a better rain sweeper

    Sorry, it doesn't look i'll approve Moltres after all. Will look into the sub roost sets
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    PK Gaming i don't agree with you at all about Specs Moltres being medicore against Sand teams. Tyranitar walls you? This is an advantage to Moltres actually, as the switch in to Tyranitar while Moltres is in is telegraphed. So just use U-turn on Tyranitar dealing 35% on average with SR up, and then either bring Dugtrio in, easily winning the weather war, or bring in Tornadus-T / Terrakion to pound your opponents team. I have used Specs Moltres extensively and Ttar was not even as annoying for Moltres as you make it seem. Not to mention that HP Fighting 2HKOes any Ttar, and OHKOes ScarfTar after SR.

    Using U-turn on a poke 4x SR weak is completely counter-intuitive? That would be true if Moltres was easily walled and forced out, which is not the matter. As i said earlier the only pokes that would want to switch into Specs Moltres are SpD Heatran, Tyranitar, SpD Rotom-W and the blobs. CB Terrakion and Taunt Tornadus-T take care of all of those (except from SpD Rotom-W in Tornadus-T's case) pokes. Not to mention that except from the blobs, all the other pokes are very easy to wear down, and fall to the appropriate Hidden Power. So yes U-turn helps a lot when the opponent is guaranteed to bring one of those pokes in and you get that little damage off (especially if the opponent is a weather inducer, aka Ttar) along with the switch initiative. So tl;dr, U-turn would be bad on Moltres if it was supposed to spam it, which is not the case at all. We OU players, are used to the philosophy that when a poke has U-turn it spams it. Landorus(-T), Scizor, Genesect, Tornadus-T etc, all spam U-turn in the early game. This doesn't mean that a poke that does not spam U-turn cannot use it effectively. Just forget the mentality of ''i spam U-turn in the early game'', and replace it with '' i use it when i see one hard counter to Moltres''.

    Finally it is true that Moltres is slow for an offensive mon, but for a wallbreaker it has ok Speed, outspeeding any defensive or tankish poke, which is just good enough for its role. Of 'course it would prefer more Speed, but it has just enough Speed to fulfill his purpose, which is to wallbreak, win/help win weather wars, and check Sun teams.

    @Shrang

    Going to test this set soon. I should have results in the next 3-4 days. Btw why the 72 evs on Def? I would prefer to put them on SpD to prevent Genesect form getting a +1 SpA boost, and to check better the special threats that Moltres handles, such as Volcarona, Venusaur and Victreebel.
  22. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Okay I see no reason for this discussion to continue, rejecting this for the following reasons:

    - 4x SR weak 'mon with a set that advocates U-Turn makes no sense
    - Specs user coming off a base Speed of 90 is really underwhelming
    - Reliance on Rain for a Fire type seems counterintuitive
    - Outclassed by Tornadus-T, Tornadus, and Swanna for Rain based Hurricane spammers

    QC REJECTED 1/3
  23. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    SubRoost predictably ended up being aggresively mediocre, so...

    I'm rejecting the entire analysis.

    QC REJECTED 2/3
  24. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    QC Rejected 3/3.

    Sorry.
  25. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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