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Moltres

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by alexwolf, Oct 10, 2012.

  1. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Bringing this back from the dead;

    there's some dissenting opinions, and jc104 hastily rejected Moltres without really testing it so we're bring it through QC again to give it another look.
  2. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Updated the main set, Specs, with more opinions that i got from people. Some of them are not in this thread, rather i took them in irc or via pm/vm.

    Something else that i missed from the Specs set, and from Moltres in general, that is quite important, is how well he checks Scarf Genesect if used with Dugtrio. Scarf Genesect has to use Tbolt in order to revenge kill Moltres, or else he gets OHKOed back. If he kills then you trap and kill with Dugtrio. If he doesn't, you shrug of anything else easily and hit hard the poke that comes into U-turn. This makes Moltres a very good lead against Genesect teams, as most of them are scarfed, and if they are not, they usually don't lead.

    Will be adding this in AC.
  3. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Yeah apologies for rejecting. I didn't think this thing looked good in theory, and theory is usually enough. However in this case I got the chance to test it and it was better than I was expecting. Anyway I think the set could be a little better still.

    U-turn is definitely not a necessity. If you have HP Fight to hit Tyranitar with, it's almost useless. Sleep Talk, on the other hand, was pretty good. Moltres is a very good Breloom counter. Therefore I would have in the last two slots HP Fight / HP Ground and Sleep Talk / U-Turn. Secondly, especially when running HP Fight, is max Speed realy necessary? Is it for a tie with Max speed heatran, which can barely touch moltres and is 2HKOed by Hurricane (iirc)? Or is it for other base 90s with Hidden Power? Could we put some more thought into the speed please?

    Finally, Moltres can be a rather good way of dealing with Genesect, but only if you give it an attack boost as it switches is. Giving Moltres at least 44 SpD (from memory; could be slightly out) evs will do this. This is just generally helpful for Volcarona and stuff anyway. You can take some of the evs out of Speed as I said before, and you can borrow any extra ones from SpA. At least an AC mention please.
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    jc104 has some valid points. The only reason to use Max Speed is to outspeed Timid Heatran, which you speed tie with anyway, if you are using HP Fighting. So the next benchmark Moltres needs to hit is 263 Speed, to outspeed Timid Politoed and Jolly Breloom. There is also Adamant Toxicroak sitting at 269 Speed, but you don't need to outspeed him anyway, as his stronger attack against you is Sucker Punch. Finally there is Timid Smeargle at 273 Speed, but who gives a fuck? So i will either keep the spread i have now, only to outrun Timid Heatran, and mention the other in in AC, or i will make the other one the main, and talk about max Speed in AC. Here is the spread for the more bulky set btw: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 44 SpD / 188 Spe with Modest. Enough SpD to give Genesect an Atk boost, and rest to HP.

    This is if Moltres goes for a Modest nature. If it goes for a Timid nature, then i don't think that a max Speed investment has any merit, so the best benchmark to hit is 297 Speed to outspeed max Speed neutral Hydreigon. So the spread will look like this: 248 SpA / 44 SpD / 216 Spe with a Timid nature. Again enough SpD to give to Genesect an Atk boost.

    So seeing as Modest is the first nature slashed, we either go with max Speed to outspeed Heatran, or with 24 HP / 252 SpA / 44 SpD / 188 Spe with Modest. Then i will mention in AC the spread that got left out for Modest, and the spread for Timid. Sounds good?

    Also i tested LO Moltres with 3 attacks and Roost, it was ok, but no more than AC material. The ability to switch moves rarely mattered, and i only managed to use Roost... twice. So while it is a nice option for those that dislike being locked into a move, and prefer the flexibility of LO, Specs is clearly the superior option. So removing Roost, and i will give a strong mention of LO + 3 attacks + Roost in AC.

    Lastly i don't know about U-turn jc... While yeah it isn't so necessary, when using Dugtrio, it is a very useful move, as Moltres lures Tyranitar and Heatran exceptionally good. Not to mention that if not running HP Fighting, which is not the first slash, U-turn is your best move against Tyranitar, letting you deal 25% to Tyranitar and change the weather back with Politoed. But whatever you guys decide, i am fine with Sleep Talk getting a slash after U-turn, as Moltres is indeed a nice counter to Breloom and Amoonguss. Btw the set i have been using Hurricane / Fire Blast / U-turn / Sleep Talk, as i was using Dugtrio with it, and didn't find any HP needed.

    EDIT: Should i also mention Flamethrower in the AC?

    EDIT 2: Added calcs of Hurricane against Garchomp and Skarmory in AC.
  5. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    I said I was done with Moltres, but i'm a goddamn liar. I gave it a bunch of test matches on both the suspect ladder & general ladder with a stronger team... and i'm back with some more conclusive results. (i should mention that sand usage has gone way down...)

    Before I say anything, can we just agree on something regarding Moltres? It is one of, if not the most high maintenance Pokemon to use in OU as of right now. You need a spinner, rain and Dugtrio, but most of all, you need a reason for Moltres to get used in the first place. IMO, that reason is Tornadus-T. Moltres + Tornadus-T is a stupidly good combo. Like double dragon good. When I laddered, I didn't have to worry about Rotom-W, Heatran or anything checking Tornadus-T since Moltres would draw them out without fail and weaken / kill them. Even SpD Rotom-W has a hilariously high chance of losing. (it can only switch in once... the second time it switches in it flat out loses). Though with Moltres let's be honest here, you're only using it to spam Hurricane. you should never EVER use Fire Blast because Hurricane is preferable in nearly ALL cases. (Hurricane destroys most of OU's "fire weaks" with the exception of Jirachi, who I would rather confuse and not risk having to predict and mess with Fire blast). I'm not saying you should remove Fire Blast, but Fire Blast's legitimacy should be de-emphasized.

    VERDICT: i'm willing to approve the Choice Specs set, on the condition that you make it absolutely clear that using Moltres requires a massive commitment on the trainers part and you should make its flaws apparent. It's still worthless on 99% teams and a massive liability if your opponent can keep rocks down.

    Yeah this should be the main spread. Do people even use max speed Heatran anymore? All i've seen are defensive sets, Heatran itself can barely touch Moltres in the rain and if they're going to use an offensive Heatran set that utilizes max+ speed, Choice Scarf seems much more likely at that point.
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    I agree with you on the most part. Rapid Spin and rain support are absolute musts. Theoretically Torn-T isn't, but i agree with you that the main reason to use Moltres is to wreck shit with his big brother, so should i mention that Torn-T is a must with Moltres, or semi-must? The only thing i don't completely agree with is the Dugtrio support. Dugtrio support is very beneficial to win the weather war, and to eliminate Heatran, but it is not a must. Moltres and Torn-T together can quite easily break through Heatran, as well as through Tyranitar, just not as fast as they would with Dugtrio. Don't forget that Moltres lures Tyranitar and deals 58.41 - 69.3% to it with HP Fight, or more realistically does ~35% damage with U-turn + SR, and then goes to Torn-T, forcing Ttar to lose 30% only for coming in.

    So changed the main spread, and mentioned the spread to use if running Timid. Btw is there any reason to mention a max speed spread when using Modest, if only to outspeed Timid Heatran and Timid Smeargle, or no? I gave it an AC mention, but if you want i can remove it.

    And finally about Fire Blast... Fire Blast's main use is murdering Sun teams. Being able to 2HKO some steels that you can't with Hurricane us just a small added bonus, and a reason for other players to not even think of bringing their Steel types in. So i will change the wording and emphasize Fire Blast's main use, meaning to murder Sun teams, while having the added benefit of 2HKOing some Steels even in rain ok?
  7. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    • Alright, to be fair Dugtrio is just a strong choice for sun teams in general (though with Dugtrio in tow Tyranitar is significantly easier to handle).
    • That's fine
    • Oh right, I forgot about Sun teams good call on that. You should specifically mention WHICH steel-types are 2hkoed, because for the most part most of them are flat out annihilated by Hurricane. Jirachi and in select scenarios Ferrothorn are the only targets worth using Fire Blast, since for every other steel i'd rather be spamming Hurricane.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Expept from Ferrothorn and Jirachi, there are Metagross, Magnezone and Bronzong that Fire Blast hits. The only important one though is Magnezone, which takes little from Hurricane, and is cleanly OHKOed by Fire Blast in rain. Max HP Metagross and Bronzong face big chances of getting 2HKOed by Hurricane after SR, but Fire Blast is handy for OHKOing them if needed. So which of them do i mention when talking about Fire Blast?
  9. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    I'd say all of them. Anyway, I've been testing defensive Moltres and it's not bad. It has some great resistances, decent bulk and Roost to compensate for that stupid 4x SR weakness. There are some very nice things that it checks, namely Genesect, special Landorus and sun teams. I went and replaced Dragonite on M Dragon's rain stall team to give it a try, and it held its own relatively well. You're right in saying that the rest of the EVs should go to Special Defense, though, I completely forgot about that, lol. Anyway, here are the two sets that I want to see:

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
    move 4: U-turn / Roost
    item: Choice Specs / Sharp Beak
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    (This came from your earlier post)

    and... (I'd want to see more testing on this)

    [SET]
    name: Defensive
    move 1: Substitute / Roar
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Hurricane
    move 4: Flamethrower
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 248 HP / 72 SpD / 188 Spe

    Like I said before, Substitute is probably the best option, but Roar is also very good if you have need for it.
  10. NightmareRealm

    NightmareRealm

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    I don't know if anyone took note or caught this, but Alexwolf's Evs has 572 Evs exceeding over 510.
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    shrang as i said earlier, i don't like defensive Moltres so much. Its biggest downfall is that we are talking about a defensive Pokemon with 4x SR weakness. Find me another poke like this in OU. If it was 2x it would be viable, because it could still function with SR up, but Moltres can wall nothing with SR up, and unfortunately SR will not always be off the field, which will make Moltres almost useless, unlike the Specs set, which can fire off powerful hits no matter how little life it has. In rain, where you are supposed to use it, it is also walled by Ttar, Rotom-W, Jirachi, Heatran, Latias, and SpD Hippo, which are not only very common, but can also set-up SR to make Moltres's life difficult (most of them).

    So while yeah defensive Moltres walls/checks quite a bit of threats, such as Sheer Force Lando, Genesect, Scizor, Volcarona (with Roar), Heatran, Venusaur, Lucario, and Abomasnow, it needs SR off to do so, which is his downfall. If i wanted something to handle most of those pokes, i would use SpD Rotom-H, which not only walls much more stuff, but has only 2x SR weakness and STAB Volt Switch for momentum.

    About the offensive set... I already said in a previous post of mine in this page that i found Sharp Beak + Roost to be AC material, as the loss of power was really a turn off, and switching moves and being able to use Roost wasn't useful most of the times. In fact i only used Roost 2-3 times in the ~20 games that i played with Sharp Beak Moltres. Moltres really needs all the power it can get to his Hurricanes to be worth it, so i think Sharp Beak and Roost should stay in AC.

    EDIT: Fixed the Speed evs.
  12. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Righto, I also gave this a test a few days ago and was happy with its power, but unhappy that it suffered from severe competition from Tornadus-T. I actually rejected this via PM to alexwolf, mostly because it was barely viable and I really didn't like the massive amount of support it needed. Running Tornadus-T with Moltres I think is v important (since you are not competing as much)and if this gets approved something that should be heavily mentioned.

    tl:dr pretty much agreeing with PK.
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Ok guys, emphasized Torn-T as a teammate. I mentioned him in Moltres's overview as well, and put him right after Politoed and Starmie/Tentacruel in the AC. Check and tell me if this is enough, so we can get on approvals/rejects.

    EDIT: Talked with shrang, and he decided that Roost and Sharp Beak should stay in the main set.
  14. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    QC APPROVED (1/3)
  15. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    Yep, everything's good.

    [qc]2/3[/qc]
  16. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    Yeah, so I've tested this out extensively and I still hate it. Not strong enough, not fast enough, and far too SR weak to compete in this metagame. Don't know why this analysis got dragged back from the depths of immediate rejection...
  17. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Lavos PK already mentioned in the first post of this page why this was unlocked.
  18. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    If some of you guys think Riolu is ok, this thing is an extremely easy pass.

    [qc]3/3[/qc]
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Thx a lot guys! This will be finished in the next 6-7 days.
  20. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Ready for GP checks!
  21. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa

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    One thing: I do not think that starting with this is going to be real encouraging for someone:
    It would be wiser to say that in a less biased matter. "Moltres is an unboosted offensive powerhouse, but a couple of things have been holding it back. For example, its Speed, which can leave it vulnerable to revenge killing. Furthermore, it has weaknesses to Electric, Water, and Rock types moves. The rock weakness really leaves it vulnerable to Stealth Rock as well. However, with the transition to BW2, Moltres got an awesome gift in Hurricane, making it one of two Fire types that can abuse rain, the other being Volcarona. ...."

    Wouldn't it be wiser to not discourage someone?
  22. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    The problem is Moltres isn't "a powerhouse with a couple things holding it back."
    It occupies a small niche and it needs to be absolutely clear to readers that Moltres isn't a "fantastic" Pokemon by any means.
    We're not trying to advertise Pokemon in the overview.

    anyway, amcheck
    amcheck done (open)
    [Overview]

    <p>Moltres was always a bad Pokemon to use in OU. Losing 50% of its health from Stealth Rock, having a mediocre 90 base Speed, being weak to Electric-, Rock-, and Water-type moves, and being outclassed by the Fire-types of OU were the main reasons that Moltres never saw any real use. However, Moltres got Hurricane in BW2 which gave, giving it a reason to be used in OU. While it faces stiff competition with the tier's prime Hurricane user, Tornadus-T, itMoltres has its own unique traits to distinguish it. Thoese traits are a much stronger Hurricane,; the ability to get pastovercome Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross, and; OHKOing Ferrothorn in rain, unlike Tornadus-T,; and lastly, the ability to easily switch into many Pokemon that sun teams carry, and from there punch holes with a stupidly strong Fire Blast. Even if those traits are not enough for Moltres to escape from the shadow of Tornadus-T and its other flaws, Moltres and Tornadus-T form a destructive Hurricane combo when combined together, where Moltres weakens the Pokemon that prevent Tornadus-T from cleaning up late game. So, while MoltresIn short, despite needsing a ton of support to work, it has a specific nicheMoltres has a definite niche in OU: the ability to work as a wallbreaking partner for Tornadus-T, which makes it viable in OU.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Hidden Power Fighting / Hidden Power Ground
    move 4: U-turn / Roost
    item: Choice Specs / Sharp Beak
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 44 SpD / 188 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Moltres hasis tied with Tornadus-Incarnate for the most powerful Hurricane in OU together with Tornadus, and with Choice Specs attached, its power is phenomenal. To give you an example of itMoltres's power, offensive Heatran is always 2HKOed by Hurricane after just Stealth Rock. In addition, itMoltres's typing allows it to check some dangerous offensive threats, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Lucario, and Volcarona, that no other Hurricane user in OU can do. As with any Hurricane user, Moltres needs Drizzle support from Politoed to function properly. ButHowever, unlike most Hurricane users, Moltres has the ability to perform admirably under sun as nothing except Heatran can take its Fire Blast, and; to make matters worse for opposing sun teams, Moltres gets many switch-in opportunities against common PokePokemon commonly found in sun teams such as Ninetales, Heatran, Volcarona, Xatu, and Victreebelenusaur. Hurricane is the move Moltres should be using most of the times and for good reason, as it 2HKOes every Pokemon that doesn't resist it and isn't Blissey or Chanseynot named Blissey or Chansey that doesn't resist it. Fire Blast 2HKOeswill at worst 2HKO every Steel-type under rain that can tank Hurricane, such as Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross, and OHKOes Ferrothorn, which is a boon for many rain teams, as many of themrain teams lack a way to quickly dispose of it. IFire Blast is also Moltres's main weapon against sun teams, as Moltres can find many switch-in opportunities against sun teams and proceed to blast themfire off, serving as a useful asset to have against themun boosted STAB Fire Blasts, pulling its weight even in sun. Hidden Power Fighting is used to 2HKO any Tyranitar and Heatran; more specificallyfurthermore, offensive Heatran and Choice Scarf Tyranitar are always OHKOed after Stealth Rock. Hidden Power Ground OHKOes any Heatran, while 2HKOing any choiced Tyranitar, but fails to do any significant damage to specially defensive variants of the latter. U-turn allows Moltres to scout for its counters, Chansey, Blissey, and Tyranitar, while also doing a fair bit of damage to Tyranitar. Roost gives Moltres the ability to heal off Stealth Rock damage and survive longer.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Modest is the primary nature because the extra power gives Moltres certain OHKOs and 2HKOs. Specifically:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>- Hurricane vs 4 SpD Heatran: 45.82 - 54.17%, sure 2HKO after Stealth Rock</li>
    <li>- Hurricane vs 184 HP Rotom-W: 51.56 - 60.62%, 94.14% chance to 2HKO</li>
    <li>- Hurricane vs +2 SpD 0 HP Volcarona: 97.1 - 114.46%, 81.25% chance to OHKO</li>
    <li>- Hurricane vs 4 SpD Dragonite: 96.9 - 114.24%</li>
    <li>- Hurricane vs 56 HP Gyarados: 90.72 - 107.24%</li>
    <li>- Hurricane vs 4 HP Garchomp: 100 - 118.15%</li>
    <li>- Hurricane vs 252 HP Skarmory: 62.87 - 73.95%</li>
    <li>- Fire Blast (rain) vs 252 / 224+ Jirachi: 57.92 - 68.31%</li>

    <p>Choice Specs is the main item because of the huge power it provides, and because Moltres should be using Hurricane most of the times anyway. However, Sharp Beak is an option if one prefers the freedom to change moves and the ability to use Roost, which comeis very handy in some situations. The Speed EVs enable Moltres to outspeed Timid Politoed and Jolly Breloom, both of which are OHKOed by Hurricane. With 44 EVs in Special Defense, Choice Scarf Genesect gets an Attack boost against Moltres and cannot OHKO with Thunderbolt, while Moltres OHKOes back with either STAB move. When using Hidden Power Ground with a Modest nature, running max Speed is an option to outrun Timid 252 Speed Heatran and Smeargle. By using a Timid nature, Moltres has the advantage of outspeeding max Speed Jolly Mamoswine, Timid Rotom-W, Modest Kyurem, neutral natured Kyurem-B, Adamant Haxorus, and Modest Hydreigon. With a Timid nature, Moltres should use this spread: 248 SpA / 44 SpD / 216 Spe. E, giving it enough Speed to outrun Modest Hydreigon, 44 SpD EVs for Genesect, and rest toplacing the rest of the EVs in Special Attack. Hidden Power Fighting is the superior third move because removing Tyranitar from the game is more vital to Moltres's success than removing Heatran.</p>

    <p>Sleep Talk is a viable option as Moltres can easily switch into Breloom, Venusaur, and Amoonguss. Hidden Power Grass allows Moltres to OHKO offensive Rotom-W, 2HKO specially defensive Rotom-W, and 2HKO any choiced Tyranitar after Stealth Rock. Life Orb can be used over Sharp bBeak if you find that any move other than Hurricane lacks power, but the Life Orb recoil, the Stealth Rock damage, and any other damage that Moltres may receive will leave Moltres wanting to use Roost all the time, having little time to actually attack, which defiecontradicts the purpose of the set.<p>

    <p>Politoed is mandatory as a teammate, obviously, to make Moltres's Hurricane 100% accurate. A way to get rid of Stealth Rock is also obligatory when using Moltres, which means using either Rapid Spin or Magic Bounce support. Starmie and Tentacruel are the rRapid sSpinners that work the best with Moltres and are the best spinners for rain teams too; Starmie is usually the option for more offensive teams, and can revenge kill some Pokemon that outspeed and OHKO Moltres, such as Terrakion, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo, while Tentacruel is the option for more balanced teams, and still deals with many Pokemon that trouble Moltres such as Keldeo, Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Politoed. Moltres in turnIn turn, Moltres can take Ground-, Bug-, and Grass-type attacks aimed at themStarmie and Tentacruel, and beat Pokemon that they hate facing, such as Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Amoonguss. As for Magic Bouncers, neither Espeon nor Xatu work particularly well with Moltres in rain teams, but they are both an option if one is using Moltres on an offensive VoltTurn team, the only way thatwhich is the only team archetype in which the Magic Bounce Pokemon will manage to keep Stealth Rock off the field for enoughany period of time. Tornadus-T is the best offensive partner for Moltres, and their combination of the two is the main reason to use Moltres in OU. Tornadus-T forms a dual Hurricane combo with Moltres, and together they break down Flying-type resists, and and, in general, can wear down each other's counters in general. Tornadus-T with Taunt is the best variant to use alongside Moltres, as it can beat Blissey, Chansey, Heatran, and Tyranitar, while Moltres weakens Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos, as well as handlesing Jirachi, Bronzong, Scizor, Skarmory, and sun teams, and they. Additionally, both Tornadus-T and Moltres can both bring each other in safely in with U-turn. This allows Tornadus-T to easily clean whole teams late game.</p>

    <p>There are also some more optional partners for Moltres. Dugtrio is of great help to Moltres, as Moltres can bring it in safely with U-turn, allowing it to trap and eliminate Heatran and Tyranitar, winning the weather war and allowin the case of the latter and giving Moltres an opening to wrecak havoc simultaneously in the latter's case. When using Dugtrio, Moltres also puts Choice Scarf Genesect in a checkmate position, as the only way that Genesect can KO Moltres is with Thunderbolt, and if it does that, it gets trapped and KOed by Dugtrio. If it doesn'Genesect fails to use Thunderbolt, Moltres can act as a great switch-in to Genesect, shielding your team from its other attacks. This fact makes Moltres a good lead against teams with Genesect teams, as most of themGenesect use Choice Scarf, and if they don't, they usually don'tGenesects that do not hold Choice Scarf don't typically lead. Terrakion, especially the Choice Band set, murders all of Molltres's checks and counters, making for a great teammate. Celebi has amazing defensive synergy with Moltres, checking Pokemon such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Calm Mind Substitute Jirachi, and Starmie, while Moltres can get many free switche-ins via Celebi's U-turn against the many Steel-, and Grass-types that Celebi attracts. Finally, specially defensive Jirachi can pass Wishes to Moltres with ease, as they have excellent defensive synergy, helping itMoltres with its longevity problem and can also takeing Rock- and Dragon-type attacks aimed at Moltres.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A defensive set utilizing Substitute and Roost alongside Flamethrower and Hurricane or Flamethrower and Toxic is the most viable Moltres set not already listed. Thanks to Pressure, Moltres can easily PP stall moves from Pokemon that would otherwise hurt it badly by alternating between Substitute and Roost, such as Stone Edge from Tyranitar and Hydro Pump from Rotom-W and Choice Specs Politoed. The following spread should be used with this set: 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96 Spe with a Timid nature. EThis spread gives Moltres enough Speed to outrun positive natured base 70s, such as Breloom and Politoed, and restplaces the rest of the EVs into HP and Special Defense because Moltres's typing is better suited to take special hits. However, this set can be walled and rendered useless by many common Pokemon such as Roar Heatran, Hippowdon, Calm Mind Jirachi or specially defensive Jirachi with Thunder, and Tentacruel, and is checked by many other Pokemon depending on the secondary move of choice Moltres chooses to run (Hurricane or Toxic). It is also hurt pretty badly by Stealth Rock, as with Stealth Rock up it can't wall any of the threats that it otherwise could and has to spend all of its time using Roost. Substitute can be used with Life Orb on the offensive set when running Roost, to take advantage of Pressure and stall out moves that could hurt Moltres, scout faster switch-ins, and ease prediction, but betweemn Substitute, Life Orb damagerecoil, and Stealth Rock damage, Moltres will rarely find time to attack or heal. Choice Scarf is an option on the offensive set so thatto enable Moltres canto act as a moderately powerful revenge killer, but it is outclassed by pretty much any other revenge killer in OU due to a huge Stealth Rock weakness and a mediocre Speed stat. Lastly, an Agility set is a viable option in sun teams, and can act as a decent cleaner late game, but faces a lot of competition from better sun sweepers such as Volcarona, Venusaur, and Victini, and thus is generally outclassed.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p> Chansey and Blissey are the only surefire counters to Moltres. Tyranitar and Heatran work too, but they both get hurt pretty badly by Hidden Power, and Heatran can't do any immediate damage back atto Moltres, except fromhaving to settle for Toxicing it or setting up Stealth Rock and phazing itMoltres with Roar. Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zadppdos and Jirachi in rain are all good checks, but are prone to getting worn down or, and lose if a Hurricane confusion occurs. Everything faster than Moltres that can take a hit is an okay check, namely Scarf Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, and Calm Mind Jirachi, as they can switch into Moltres once or twice and force it out. Finally, everthere are many offensive Pokemon that can revenge kill Moltres serves as a good revenge killer for Moltres, meaning that; Pokemon such as Keldeo, Latios, Starmie, and Terrakion will do the trick.</p>

    copypastable (open)
    [Overview]

    <p>Moltres was always a bad Pokemon to use in OU. Losing 50% of its health from Stealth Rock, having a mediocre 90 base Speed, being weak to Electric-, Rock-, and Water-type moves, and being outclassed by the Fire-types of OU were the main reasons that Moltres never saw any real use. However, Moltres got Hurricane in BW2, giving it a reason to be used in OU. While it faces stiff competition with the tier's prime Hurricane user, Tornadus-T, Moltres has its own unique traits to distinguish it. These traits are a much stronger Hurricane; the ability to overcome Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross; OHKOing Ferrothorn in rain, unlike Tornadus-T; and lastly, the ability to easily switch into many Pokemon that sun teams carry, and from there punch holes with a stupidly strong Fire Blast. Even if those traits are not enough for Moltres to escape from the shadow of Tornadus-T and its other flaws, Moltres and Tornadus-T form a destructive Hurricane combo when combined together, where Moltres weakens the Pokemon that prevent Tornadus-T from cleaning up late game. In short, despite needing a ton of support to work, Moltres has a definite niche in OU: the ability to work as a wallbreaking partner for Tornadus-T.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Hidden Power Fighting / Hidden Power Ground
    move 4: U-turn / Roost
    item: Choice Specs / Sharp Beak
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 44 SpD / 188 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Moltres is tied with Tornadus-Incarnate for the most powerful Hurricane in OU, and with Choice Specs attached, its power is phenomenal. To give you an example of Moltres's power, offensive Heatran is always 2HKOed by Hurricane after just Stealth Rock. In addition, Moltres's typing allows it to check some dangerous offensive threats, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Lucario, and Volcarona, that no other Hurricane user in OU can do. As with any Hurricane user, Moltres needs Drizzle support from Politoed to function properly. However, unlike most Hurricane users, Moltres has the ability to perform admirably under sun as nothing except Heatran can take its Fire Blast; to make matters worse for opposing sun teams, Moltres gets many switch-in opportunities against Pokemon commonly found in sun teams such as Ninetales, Heatran, Volcarona, Xatu, and Venusaur. Hurricane is the move Moltres should be using most of the time, as it 2HKOes every Pokemon not named Blissey or Chansey that doesn't resist it. Fire Blast will at worst 2HKO every Steel-type under rain that can tank Hurricane, such as Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross, and OHKOes Ferrothorn, which is a boon for rain teams, as many rain teams lack a way to quickly dispose of it. Fire Blast is also Moltres's main weapon against sun teams, as Moltres can find many switch-in opportunities against sun teams and proceed to fire off sun boosted STAB Fire Blasts, pulling its weight even in sun. Hidden Power Fighting is used to 2HKO any Tyranitar and Heatran; furthermore, offensive Heatran and Choice Scarf Tyranitar are always OHKOed after Stealth Rock. Hidden Power Ground OHKOes any Heatran, while 2HKOing any choiced Tyranitar, but fails to do any significant damage to specially defensive variants of the latter. U-turn allows Moltres to scout for its counters, Chansey, Blissey, and Tyranitar, while also doing a fair bit of damage to Tyranitar. Roost gives Moltres the ability to heal off Stealth Rock damage and survive longer.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Modest is the primary nature because the extra power gives Moltres certain OHKOs and 2HKOs. Specifically:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>- Hurricane vs 4 SpD Heatran: 45.82 - 54.17%, sure 2HKO after Stealth Rock</li>
    <li>- Hurricane vs 184 HP Rotom-W: 51.56 - 60.62%, 94.14% chance to 2HKO</li>
    <li>- Hurricane vs +2 SpD 0 HP Volcarona: 97.1 - 114.46%, 81.25% chance to OHKO</li>
    <li>- Hurricane vs 4 SpD Dragonite: 96.9 - 114.24%</li>
    <li>- Hurricane vs 56 HP Gyarados: 90.72 - 107.24%</li>
    <li>- Hurricane vs 4 HP Garchomp: 100 - 118.15%</li>
    <li>- Hurricane vs 252 HP Skarmory: 62.87 - 73.95%</li>
    <li>- Fire Blast (rain) vs 252 / 224+ Jirachi: 57.92 - 68.31%</li>

    <p>Choice Specs is the main item because of the huge power it provides, and because Moltres should be using Hurricane most of the time anyway. However, Sharp Beak is an option if one prefers the freedom to change moves and the ability to use Roost, which is very handy in some situations. The Speed EVs enable Moltres to outspeed Timid Politoed and Jolly Breloom, both of which are OHKOed by Hurricane. With 44 EVs in Special Defense, Choice Scarf Genesect gets an Attack boost against Moltres and cannot OHKO with Thunderbolt, while Moltres OHKOes back with either STAB move. When using Hidden Power Ground with a Modest nature, running max Speed is an option to outrun Timid 252 Speed Heatran and Smeargle. By using a Timid nature, Moltres has the advantage of outspeeding max Speed Jolly Mamoswine, Timid Rotom-W, Modest Kyurem, neutral natured Kyurem-B, Adamant Haxorus, and Modest Hydreigon. With a Timid nature, Moltres should use this spread: 248 SpA / 44 SpD / 216 Spe, giving it enough Speed to outrun Modest Hydreigon, 44 SpD EVs for Genesect, and placing the rest of the EVs in Special Attack. Hidden Power Fighting is the superior third move because removing Tyranitar from the game is more vital to Moltres's success than removing Heatran.</p>

    <p>Sleep Talk is a viable option as Moltres can easily switch into Breloom, Venusaur, and Amoonguss. Hidden Power Grass allows Moltres to OHKO offensive Rotom-W, 2HKO specially defensive Rotom-W, and 2HKO any choiced Tyranitar after Stealth Rock. Life Orb can be used over Sharp Beak if you find that any move other than Hurricane lacks power, but the Life Orb recoil, the Stealth Rock damage, and any other damage that Moltres may receive will leave Moltres wanting to use Roost all the time, having little time to actually attack, which contradicts the purpose of the set.<p>

    <p>Politoed is mandatory as a teammate, obviously, to make Moltres's Hurricane 100% accurate. A way to get rid of Stealth Rock is also obligatory when using Moltres, which means using either Rapid Spin or Magic Bounce support. Starmie and Tentacruel are the Rapid Spinners that work the best with Moltres and are the best spinners for rain teams too; Starmie is usually the option for more offensive teams, and can revenge kill some Pokemon that outspeed and OHKO Moltres, such as Terrakion, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo, while Tentacruel is the option for more balanced teams, and still deals with many Pokemon that trouble Moltres such as Keldeo, Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Politoed. In turn, Moltres can take Ground-, Bug-, and Grass-type attacks aimed at Starmie and Tentacruel, and beat Pokemon that they hate facing, such as Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Amoonguss. As for Magic Bouncers, neither Espeon nor Xatu work particularly well with Moltres in rain teams, but they are both an option if one is using Moltres on an offensive VoltTurn team, which is the only team archetype in which the Magic Bounce Pokemon will manage to keep Stealth Rock off the field for any period of time. Tornadus-T is the best offensive partner for Moltres, and the combination of the two is the main reason to use Moltres in OU. Tornadus-T forms a dual Hurricane combo with Moltres, and together they break down Flying-type resists and, in general, can wear down each other's counters. Tornadus-T with Taunt is the best variant to use alongside Moltres, as it can beat Blissey, Chansey, Heatran, and Tyranitar, while Moltres weakens Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos as well as handling Jirachi, Bronzong, Scizor, Skarmory, and sun teams. Additionally, both Tornadus-T and Moltres can bring each other in safely with U-turn. This allows Tornadus-T to easily clean whole teams late game.</p>

    <p>There are also some more optional partners for Moltres. Dugtrio is of great help to Moltres, as Moltres can bring it in safely with U-turn, allowing it to trap and eliminate Heatran and Tyranitar, winning the weather war in the case of the latter and giving Moltres an opening to wreak havoc. When using Dugtrio, Moltres also puts Choice Scarf Genesect in a checkmate position, as the only way that Genesect can KO Moltres is with Thunderbolt, and if it does that, it gets trapped and KOed by Dugtrio. If Genesect fails to use Thunderbolt, Moltres can act as a great switch-in to Genesect, shielding your team from its other attacks. This fact makes Moltres a good lead against teams with Genesect, as most Genesect use Choice Scarf, and Genesects that do not hold Choice Scarf don't typically lead. Terrakion, especially the Choice Band set, murders all of Moltres's checks and counters, making for a great teammate. Celebi has amazing defensive synergy with Moltres, checking Pokemon such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Calm Mind Substitute Jirachi, and Starmie, while Moltres can get many free switch-ins via Celebi's U-turn against the many Steel-, and Grass-types that Celebi attracts. Finally, specially defensive Jirachi can pass Wishes to Moltres with ease, as they have excellent defensive synergy, helping Moltres with its longevity problem and also taking Rock- and Dragon-type attacks aimed at Moltres.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A defensive set utilizing Substitute and Roost alongside Flamethrower and Hurricane or Flamethrower and Toxic is the most viable Moltres set not already listed. Thanks to Pressure, Moltres can easily PP stall moves from Pokemon that would otherwise hurt it badly by alternating between Substitute and Roost, such as Stone Edge from Tyranitar and Hydro Pump from Rotom-W and Choice Specs Politoed. The following spread should be used with this set: 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96 Spe with a Timid nature. This spread gives Moltres enough Speed to outrun positive natured base 70s, such as Breloom and Politoed, and places the rest of the EVs into HP and Special Defense because Moltres's typing is better suited to take special hits. However, this set can be walled and rendered useless by many common Pokemon such as Roar Heatran, Hippowdon, Calm Mind Jirachi or specially defensive Jirachi with Thunder, and Tentacruel, and is checked by many other Pokemon depending on the secondary move of choice Moltres chooses to run (Hurricane or Toxic). It is also hurt pretty badly by Stealth Rock, as with Stealth Rock up it can't wall any of the threats that it otherwise could and has to spend all of its time using Roost. Substitute can be used with Life Orb on the offensive set when running Roost, to take advantage of Pressure and stall out moves that could hurt Moltres, scout faster switch-ins, and ease prediction, but between Substitute, Life Orb recoil, and Stealth Rock damage, Moltres will rarely find time to attack or heal. Choice Scarf is an option on the offensive set to enable Moltres to act as a moderately powerful revenge killer, but it is outclassed by pretty much any other revenge killer in OU due to a huge Stealth Rock weakness and a mediocre Speed stat. Lastly, an Agility set is a viable option in sun teams, and can act as a decent cleaner late game, but faces a lot of competition from better sun sweepers such as Volcarona, Venusaur, and Victini, and thus is generally outclassed.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p> Chansey and Blissey are the only surefire counters to Moltres. Tyranitar and Heatran work too, but they both get hurt pretty badly by Hidden Power, and Heatran can't do any immediate damage back to Moltres, having to settle for Toxicing it or setting up Stealth Rock and phazing Moltres with Roar. Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos and Jirachi in rain are all good checks, but are prone to getting worn down, and lose if a Hurricane confusion occurs. Everything faster than Moltres that can take a hit is an okay check, namely Scarf Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, and Calm Mind Jirachi, as they can switch into Moltres once or twice and force it out. Finally, there are many offensive Pokemon that can revenge kill Moltres; Pokemon such as Keldeo, Latios, Starmie, and Terrakion will do the trick.</p>
  23. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Very helpful GP check Woodchuck, thx a lot and implemented!
  24. Oglemi

    Oglemi Die you bastards!
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
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    Joined:
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    [Overview]

    <p>Moltres was always a bad Pokemon to use in OU. Losing 50% of its health from Stealth Rock, having a mediocre 90 base Speed, being weak to Electric-, Rock-, and Water-type moves, and being outclassed by the Fire-types of OU were the main reasons that Moltres never saw any real use. However, Moltres got Hurricane in BW2, giving it a reason to be used in OU. While it faces stiff competition with the tier's prime Hurricane user, Tornadus-T, Moltres has its own unique traits to distinguish it. These traits are a much stronger Hurricane, the ability to overcome Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross, OHKOing Ferrothorn in rain, unlike Tornadus-T, and lastly, the ability to easily switch into many Pokemon that sun teams carry, and from there punch holes with a stupidly strong Fire Blast. Even if those traits are not enough for Moltres to escape from the shadow of Tornadus-T and its other flaws, Moltres and Tornadus-T form a destructive Hurricane combo when combined together, where Moltres weakens the Pokemon that prevent Tornadus-T from cleaning up late-game. In short, despite needing a ton of support to work, Moltres has a definite niche in OU: the ability to work as a wallbreaking partner for Tornadus-T.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Hidden Power Fighting / Hidden Power Ground
    move 4: U-turn / Roost
    item: Choice Specs / Sharp Beak
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 44 SpD / 188 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Moltres is tied with Tornadus-Incarnate for most powerful Hurricane in OU, and with Choice Specs attached its power is phenomenal. To give you an example of Moltres's power, offensive Heatran is always 2HKOed by Hurricane after just Stealth Rock. In addition, Moltres's typing allows it to check some dangerous offensive threats, such as Sheer Force Landorus, Lucario, and Volcarona, that no other Hurricane user in OU can do. As with any Hurricane user, Moltres needs Drizzle support from Politoed to function properly. However, unlike most Hurricane users, Moltres has the ability to perform admirably under sun as nothing except Heatran can take its Fire Blast; to make matters worse for opposing sun teams, Moltres gets many switch-in opportunities against Pokemon commonly found on sun teams such as Ninetales, Heatran, Volcarona, Xatu, and Venusaur. Hurricane is the move Moltres should be using most of the time, as it 2HKOes every Pokemon not named Blissey or Chansey that doesn't resist it. Fire Blast will at worst 2HKO every Steel-type under rain that can tank Hurricane, such as Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross, and OHKOes Ferrothorn, which is a boon for rain teams, as many rain teams lack a way to quickly dispose of it. Fire Blast is also Moltres's main weapon against sun teams, as Moltres can find many switch-in opportunities against sun teams and proceed to fire off sun-boosted STAB Fire Blasts, pulling its weight even in sun. Hidden Power Fighting is used to 2HKO any Tyranitar and Heatran; more specifically offensive Heatran and Choice Scarf Tyranitar are always OHKOed after Stealth Rock. Hidden Power Ground OHKOes any Heatran, while 2HKOing any Choice Tyranitar, but fails to do any significant damage to specially defensive variants of the latter. U-turn allows Moltres to scout for switch-ins from its counters, Chansey, Blissey, and Tyranitar, while also doing a fair bit of damage to Tyranitar. Roost gives Moltres the ability to heal off Stealth Rock damage and survive longer.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Modest is the primary nature because the extra power gives Moltres certain OHKOs and 2HKOs. Specifically:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 SpD Heatran: 45.82 - 54.17%, sure 2HKO after Stealth Rock</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 184 HP Rotom-W: 51.56 - 60.62%, 94.14% chance to 2HKO</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs +2 SpD 0 HP Volcarona: 97.1 - 114.46%, 81.25% chance to OHKO</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 SpD Dragonite: 96.9 - 114.24%</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 56 HP Gyarados: 90.72 - 107.24%</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 4 HP Garchomp: 100 - 118.15%</li>
    <li>Hurricane vs 252 HP Skarmory: 62.87 - 73.95%</li>
    <li>Fire Blast (rain) vs 252 / 224+ Jirachi: 57.92 - 68.31%</li>
    </ul>


    <p>Choice Specs is the main item because of the huge power it provides, and because Moltres should be using Hurricane most of the time anyway. However, Sharp Beak is an option if one prefers the freedom to change moves and the ability to use Roost, which is very handy in some situations. The Speed EVs enable Moltres to outspeed Timid Politoed and Jolly Breloom, both of which are OHKOed by Hurricane. With 44 EVs in Special Defense Choice Scarf Genesect gets an Attack boost against Moltres and cannot OHKO with Thunderbolt, while Moltres OHKOes back with either STAB move. When using Hidden Power Ground with a Modest nature, running max Speed is an option to outrun Timid 252 Speed Heatran and Smeargle. By using a Timid nature Moltres has the advantage of outspeeding max Speed Jolly Mamoswine, Timid Rotom-W, Modest Kyurem, neutral natured Kyurem-B, Adamant Haxorus, and Modest Hydreigon. With a Timid nature, Moltres should use this spread: 248 SpA / 44 SpD / 216 Spe. This spread gives it enough Speed to outrun Modest Hydreigon, 44 SpD EVs for Genesect, and placing the rest of the EVs in Special Attack. Hidden Power Fighting is the superior third move because removing Tyranitar from the game is more vital to Moltres's success than removing Heatran.</p>

    <p>Sleep Talk is a viable option as Moltres can easily switch into Breloom, Venusaur, and Amoonguss. Hidden Power Grass allows Moltres to OHKO offensive Rotom-W, 2HKO specially defensive Rotom-W, and 2HKO any Choice Tyranitar after Stealth Rock. Life Orb can be used over Sharp beak if you find that any move other than Hurricane lacks power, but the Life Orb recoil, the Stealth Rock damage, and any other damage that Moltres may receive will leave Moltres wanting to use Roost all the time, having little time to actually attack, which contradicts the purpose of the set.</p>

    <p>Politoed is mandatory as a teammate, obviously, to make Moltres's Hurricane 100% accurate. A way to get rid of Stealth Rock is also obligatory when using Moltres, which means using either Rapid Spin or Magic Bounce support. Starmie and Tentacruel are the spinners that work the best with Moltres and are the best spinners for rain teams too; Starmie is usually the option for more offensive teams, and can revenge kill some Pokemon that outspeed and OHKO Moltres, such as Terrakion, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo, while Tentacruel is the option for more balanced teams, and still deals with many Pokemon that trouble Moltres such as Keldeo, Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Politoed. In turn, Moltres can take Ground-, Bug-, and Grass-type attacks aimed at Starmie and Tentacruel, and beat Pokemon that they hate facing such as Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Amoonguss. As for Magic Bouncers, neither Espeon nor Xatu work particularly well with Moltres in rain teams, but they are both an option if one is using Moltres on an offensive VoltTurn team, which is the only team archetype in which the Magic Bounce Pokemon will manage to keep Stealth Rock off the field for any period of time. Tornadus-T is the best offensive partner for Moltres and the combination of the two is the main reason to use Moltres in OU. Tornadus-T forms a dual Hurricane combo with Moltres and together they break down Flying-type resists and, in general, can wear down each other's counters. Tornadus-T with Taunt is the best variant to use alongside Moltres, as it can beat Blissey, Chansey, Heatran, and Tyranitar, while Moltres weakens Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos, as well as handling Jirachi, Bronzong, Scizor, Skarmory, and sun teams. Additionally, both Tornadus-T and Moltres can bring each other in safely with U-turn. This allows Tornadus-T to easily clean whole teams late-game.</p>

    <p>There are also some more optional partners for Moltres. Dugtrio is of great help to Moltres, as Moltres can bring it in safely with U-turn allowing it to trap and eliminate Heatran and Tyranitar, winning the weather war in the case of the latter and giving Moltres an opening to wreak havoc. When using Dugtrio, Moltres also puts Choice Scarf Genesect in a checkmate position, as the only way that Genesect can KO Moltres is with Thunderbolt, and if it does that, it gets trapped and KOed by Dugtrio. If Genesect doesn't use Thunderbolt, Moltres can act as a great switch-in to Genesect, shielding your team from its other attacks. This fact makes Moltres a good lead against teams with Genesect, as most Genesect use Choice Scarf, and Genesect that do not hold Choice Scarf don't typically lead. Terrakion, especially the Choice Band set, murders all of Moltres's checks and counters, making for a great teammate. Celebi has amazing defensive synergy with Moltres, checking Pokemon such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Calm Mind + Substitute Jirachi, and Starmie, while Moltres can get many free switch-ins via Celebi's U-turn against the many Steel- and Grass-types that Celebi attracts. Finally, specially defensive Jirachi can pass Wishes to Moltres with ease, as they have excellent defensive synergy, helping Moltres with its longevity problem and also taking Rock- and Dragon-type attacks aimed at Moltres.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A defensive set utilizing Substitute and Roost alongside Flamethrower and Hurricane or Flamethrower and Toxic is the most viable Moltres set not already listed. Thanks to Pressure, Moltres can easily PP stall moves from Pokemon that would otherwise hurt it badly by alternating between Substitute and Roost, such as Stone Edge from Tyranitar and Hydro Pump from Rotom-W and Choice Specs Politoed. The following spread should be used with this set: 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96 Spe with a Timid nature. This spread gives Moltres enough Speed to outrun positive natured base 70s, such as Breloom and Politoed, and places the rest of the EVs into HP and Special Defense because Moltres's typing is better suited to take special hits. However, this set can be walled and rendered useless by many common Pokemon, such as Roar Heatran, Hippowdon, Calm Mind Jirachi or specially defensive Jirachi with Thunder, and Tentacruel, and is checked by many other Pokemon depending on the secondary move of choice Moltres chooses to run (Hurricane or Toxic). It is also hurt pretty badly by Stealth Rock, as with Stealth Rock up it can't wall any of the threats that it otherwise could and has to spend all of its time using Roost. Substitute can be used with Life Orb on the offensive set when running Roost, to take advantage of Pressure and stall out moves that could hurt Moltres, scout faster switch-ins, and ease prediction, but between Substitute, Life Orb recoil, and Stealth Rock damage, Moltres will rarely find time to attack or heal. Choice Scarf is an option on the offensive set to enable Moltres to act as a moderately powerful revenge killer, but it is outclassed by pretty much any other revenge killer in OU due to a huge Stealth Rock weakness and a mediocre Speed stat. Lastly, an Agility set is a viable option in sun teams, and can act as a decent cleaner late-game, but faces a lot of competition from better sun sweepers such as Volcarona, Venusaur, and Victini, and thus is generally outclassed.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Chansey and Blissey are the only surefire counters to Moltres. Tyranitar and Heatran work too, but they both get hurt pretty badly by Hidden Power, and Heatran can't do any immediate damage back to Moltres, having to settle for poisoning it with Toxic or setting up Stealth Rock and phazing Moltres with Roar. Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Zapdos and Jirachi in rain are all good checks, but are prone to getting worn down, or lose if a Hurricane confusion occurs. Everything faster than Moltres that can take a hit is an okay check, namely Scarf Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, and Calm Mind Jirachi, as they can switch into Moltres once or twice and force it out. Finally, there are many offensive Pokemon that can revenge kill Moltres; Pokemon such as Keldeo, Latios, Starmie, and Terrakion will do the trick.</p>


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  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Thx a lot Oglemi, one more guys!

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