Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

[scpinion]

Tbh I didn't really feel like posting again on this topic, but if you need replays..

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-493862566 Ground vs Steel (Ground user was Sabella)
I actually ended up choking this game because I failed at the calc, but Metagross would have ended up killing Gastrodon + Zygarde and won me the game. Even as it is, it knocks out Landorus and laughs at Dugtrio's attempts at 'trapping' it. Metagross gets a kill every time it comes in against a ground team lacking hippo (assuming no grass knot), and hippo just invites skarm in to set up more spikes.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-493868585 Electric vs Steel (vs Eien)
Eien makes a clever pivot from Golem into zapdos to prevent me getting a kill early on. Even so, Metagross proves why its such an offensive threat. Its bulk is showcased when it lives a LO thunderbolt in electric terrain.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-493945616 vs random poison noob LL should have used a different type skrub

I have also beaten plenty of fire teams using Metagross since it gets a kill every time with zen headbutt (hammer arm for heatran) and I can easily go to my own heatran on their scarfers. Similar story for fighting, only scarfers can threaten, and scarfers on fighting can't even 0hko metagross. Unfortunately didn't save replays.

Regarding scpinion's post;




So you know that there's an argument for it to be banned, but instead of posting discussion on it, you just say it 'exists' and thats all? You literally agree that types such as poison (there are plenty more) have almost no counterplay to Metagross, but instead of posting an argument you just agree and then don't do anything. I'm struggling to understand this.

Alas, it worked!

I haven't posted the argument that would convince me (megagross restricts building or is outright impossible to check for otherwise good types) because I haven't used stuff that I can't check the meta with in the team tour (which is what I build for). The rest of my time on ps/smogon goes into testing the things we're voting on (not stuff they shit on) and all the other things I do around here. If I had the time, I would invest it. I assure you it isn't apathy.

Seeing as I know I don't have the time to really explore that argument this week, I responded to another post saying this tiering decision was a forgone conclusion and explained why it wasn't for me yet (my sarcasm probably wasn't necessary, but I can't take it back now). It took <1 hour to get a good post that I can actually form an opinion off of from the community. I hope others follow.

The thread is here to discuss high level competition; not sarcastic remarks, crappy replays, and saying "lol this is broken" (ik not everyone is doing that, but there is far too much of it atm).

 

[czim]

Cool replay! Can you guys that are trying to find replays for meta get together and play each other? You know... with competitive teams... making good plays...

That replay actually does a great job illustrating why I havent voted to ban meta yet. You're playing Psychic vs Poison (not just any poison team, but one with air balloon gengar and no mega venu!) and have hoopa, lele, and meta, yet:
★MegaGross replays:I think the game comes down to a speed tie.

If this thing is so broken, why is that your response?

I have yet to build a team that just loses to common metagross sets (I used the term "every" too loosely in my last post) because I keep it in mind when building. I'll take my L to grass knot pursuit meta if someone brings that tech, and have something in the back for that crazy set Arken is running (I'm not a fan, but I get that it does the job he wants it to do and he's successful with it). It is silly to not prepare for what is in the metagame because you have this notion that we'll just ban it if you keep losing to it (or preying on people that don't know what they're doing).

I, for one, won't make tiering decisions because something beats people that don't prepare for common metagame threats. If people actually prepare and it is still too much, then I'll consider it. That said, I do think steel is very good and probably overcentralizing, but that isn't solely because of metagross.

On mobile, so sorry for typos/formatting

One question though, why did you/the council decide to nitpick on the one crappy replay that was there just for shitposting instead of replying to the good replays the community have showcased here, like arken's post (that's like rotting rn because it's been there for so long) and now lycan's post right above this one? (Or like, even the type analysis i did before was completely ignored there) Sometimes it seems like you guys are trying to find silly reasons to avoid discussion on this broken mon.

 

[Neski]

Alas, it worked!

I haven't posted the argument that would convince me (megagross restricts building or is outright impossible to check for otherwise good types) because I haven't used stuff that I can't check the meta with in the team tour (which is what I build for). The rest of my time on ps/smogon goes into testing the things we're voting on (not stuff they shit on) and all the other things I do around here. If I had the time, I would invest it. I assure you it isn't apathy.

Seeing as I know I don't have the time to really explore that argument this week, I responded to another post saying this tiering decision was a forgone conclusion and explained why it wasn't for me yet (my sarcasm probably wasn't necessary, but I can't take it back now). It took <1 hour to get a good post that I can actually form an opinion off of from the community. I hope others follow.

The thread is here to discuss high level competition; not sarcastic remarks, crappy replays, and saying "lol this is broken" (ik not everyone is doing that, but there is far too much of it atm).

>Alas, it worked!

Umm, there were megagross replays submitted vs fighting, flying , ground and dragon. No council memebr talked on those replays. I even tagged 2 council members days after, and till date,no response.

You say you want good posts and discussions rather than sarcasm and bad replays, but up till now you only responded to sarcasm and bad-replays and ignored good posts.

 

[Eien]

This post isn't representative of what anyone else on the council thinks or doesn't think.

I think the Kartana + Mega Metagross offensive core is why Mega Metagross is often seen as so broken. I personally see Mega Metagross struggle a lot in some matchups to actually be relevant, but with Kartana's offensive presence, I believe it appears to be more effective than it actually is.

I've been laddering with many different types: Electric, Ground, Psychic, Water, Dark, Normal, and Flying. Not one of my teams have had bad matchups against Mega Metagross specifically. It's the support of Kartana that tips the scales against me, in some of those cases. The issues that Kartana tends to face are generally not alleviated by Mega Metagross, as it is walled by those same Pokemon too most of the time. So, for now, I'm leaning towards Kartana being the broken Pokemon.

Kartana actually reminds me a lot of Hoopa-U in ORAS, but not in the sense that Kartana is getting free KOs every time it switches in; Hoopa-U obviously has far more damage output than Kartana. I find that Kartana is often difficult to predict, as it can run very different sets, all of which can be immediately threatening. For some teams, knowing whether you need to check the Timid Swords Dance set or the Choice Band set can make or break your chances. While Ground teams have the luxury of more than one reliable strategy that can beat all Kartana sets, Water teams will usually struggle significantly to reliably check even one set, let alone both at once and surely not both with the same strategy. To make matters worse, because of Beast Boost, making a mistake in predicting Kartana's set can snowball the game out of control, as teams that have difficulty checking more than one set often cannot do so once Kartana gets going. That's what I take exception to. Pokemon can be unpredictable, that's fine. The issue here is that Kartana capitalizes so ruthlessly on its unpredictability. So while it may be possible to check Kartana's sets, it usually requires the knowledge of what set Kartana is running, which can be impossible to know sometimes and is unfair to demand.

I don't think Kartana is a ridiculous beast that gives Steel teams automatic free wins like Zygarde-10% did to Ground teams, but I still think it's worth banning. Its presence is making it difficult to fairly judge Mega Metagross and puts too much pressure on many teams during teambuilding, which I feel isn't healthy for our developing metagame. It's very possible for teams to check Kartana, but I'm somewhat reminded of how oppressive Mega Sableye was for teambuilding in ORAS. While I would never imply that Kartana is on that level, I think the fact that almost every type is required to at least consider Kartana when teambuilding is indicative of its influence. I'm not saying that Psychic shouldn't need to keep Kartana in mind when it's building, that's how threats work, but any type that doesn't naturally resist both of its STAB types needs to consciously build around it. Obviously Kartana is not on the same level as Mega Sableye, but I still think it's unnaturally restricting teambuilding.

---
scp edit: well... instead of picking the parts that needed to be deleted, I just removed the last half of this and deleted the follow up posts. If we're going to discuss replays, let's discuss the actual replay and the plays made, not the people/extenuating "stuff".

 

[DEG]

As much as its fun to attack eachother, please do not continue on doing it. It brings nothing to the table. Discuss the metagame, any post that doesn't do and its only purpose to attack another will be deleted.

 

[scpinion]

Well, that was fun! (<-- that is sarcasm)

Replays are great, and we should evaluate them and form opinions from them. I think I can speak for everyone when I say we watch them and appreciate it when someone does a good job analyzing one. Lets keep any conclusions we draw about them that don't apply to the metagame out of this thread, though.

Those of you with deleted posts (that weren't intentionally shitposts) you're welcome to restart the discussion and focus on the plays and what they do/don't mean in the context of evaluating the metagame.

 

[Arash]

I haven't built poison, so no. One of those reasons is because I don't think I could build a team that checks the current metagame. Man, if only people would rationally make that argument against mega gross instead of posting crazy replays or making sarcastic remarks I might change my mind!

I will be the first to say that poison wouldn't mind one bit if Megagross gets banned. However, on the topic of whether or not it's actually broken?

My $0.02 is that Megagross is a little more dangerous than Lando-I; just about nothing on poison can switch into it. Assuming standard, non-specialized sets on poison, Megagross scores a clean 2HKO on A-Muk (and the other poison/darks) with Meteor Mash, and a clean 2HKO on Toxapex, Nidoqueen and Mega-Venusaur w/ Zen Headbutt (none of these can OHKO in return, and these are all outsped). Everything else poison has access to is more or less destroyed by ZH or a pokemon that has no place in monotype. I guess in theory you could run a meme set on something like Nidoqueen holding a Payapa Berry with a highly specialized EV spread, but that ventures into "broken" territory when poison has to resort to that...

However, poison has a list of checks to this thing that can't switch in at all, but will do some major damage in a 1v1 situation:
- Salazzle (LO Flamethrower scores a clean OHKO and it outspeeds). However, Salazzle doesn't exactly serve poison teams with anything else besides strong and fast fire attacks; it has the defenses of a wet paper bag and is weak to SR, and can't really do anything to Heatran besides Toxic and HP ground...
- Gengar only speed ties, can't switch into either MM or ZH, and can't even OHKO it without a boosting item (Shadow Ball does 95.6% max). However, if you feel especially lucky you can try your luck with the Z-Hypnosis set (hitting with Hypnosis is only a 30% chance when factoring in speed tie and crap accuracy, and Megagross can still wake up after one turn and obliterate you).
- Scarf Nidoking will outspeed and nail it w/ Earth Power, however the OHKO is not guaranteed unless you run Modest and SR (or some prior chip damage). Timid scarf King does about 88.3 - 104.3% by itself so I guess you can chance it?
- Scolipede will outspeed but cannot OHKO even with CB Earthquake (which does slightly more damage than STAB Megahorn at 82.3% max).

So realistically, if you use a poison team and want to prepare for this beast while not hyper-specializing your team, your choices are:
1. Run Salazzle (pretty much only for Megagross, but it'll help vs. other fire-weak mons like Ferrothorn)
2. Prepare to use 2-3 mons of your own to bring it down, and be disadvantaged vs the rest of your opponent's steel/psychic team.

Being even more disadvantaged to Psychic is terrible for Poison (esp since you'll likely be sacrificing your psychic slayers to deal with Megagross). The trade-off on Steel wouldn't be so bad, except Kartana is seen everywhere with this thing and will pick off the rest of the weakened poison team w/ beast boost and psycho cut (assuming scarf). Lando-I is slightly different because although yes it can OHKO almost everything on poison, it is nowhere near as bulky and has a worse speed tier and defensive type (weak to scald / HP ice, neutral to giga drain).

Ultimately, though, at least from poison's viewpoint I'd agree with Eien in that the Kartana/Megagross combo pushes the advantage over the edge and is too much to handle. Whether or not the solution is to ban one of them or both of them we won't really know without looking at steel's matchup with other types..

 

[its.huey]

This post isn't representative of what anyone else on the council thinks or doesn't think.

I think the Kartana + Mega Metagross offensive core is why Mega Metagross is often seen as so broken. I personally see Mega Metagross struggle a lot in some matchups to actually be relevant, but with Kartana's offensive presence, I believe it appears to be more effective than it actually is.

I've been laddering with many different types: Electric, Ground, Psychic, Water, Dark, Normal, and Flying. Not one of my teams have had bad matchups against Mega Metagross specifically. It's the support of Kartana that tips the scales against me, in some of those cases. The issues that Kartana tends to face are generally not alleviated by Mega Metagross, as it is walled by those same Pokemon too most of the time. So, for now, I'm leaning towards Kartana being the broken Pokemon.

Kartana actually reminds me a lot of Hoopa-U in ORAS, but not in the sense that Kartana is getting free KOs every time it switches in; Hoopa-U obviously has far more damage output than Kartana. I find that Kartana is often difficult to predict, as it can run very different sets, all of which can be immediately threatening. For some teams, knowing whether you need to check the Timid Swords Dance set or the Choice Band set can make or break your chances. While Ground teams have the luxury of more than one reliable strategy that can beat all Kartana sets, Water teams will usually struggle significantly to reliably check even one set, let alone both at once and surely not both with the same strategy. To make matters worse, because of Beast Boost, making a mistake in predicting Kartana's set can snowball the game out of control, as teams that have difficulty checking more than one set often cannot do so once Kartana gets going. That's what I take exception to. Pokemon can be unpredictable, that's fine. The issue here is that Kartana capitalizes so ruthlessly on its unpredictability. So while it may be possible to check Kartana's sets, it usually requires the knowledge of what set Kartana is running, which can be impossible to know sometimes and is unfair to demand.

I don't think Kartana is a ridiculous beast that gives Steel teams automatic free wins like Zygarde-10% did to Ground teams, but I still think it's worth banning. Its presence is making it difficult to fairly judge Mega Metagross and puts too much pressure on many teams during teambuilding, which I feel isn't healthy for our developing metagame. It's very possible for teams to check Kartana, but I'm somewhat reminded of how oppressive Mega Sableye was for teambuilding in ORAS. While I would never imply that Kartana is on that level, I think the fact that almost every type is required to at least consider Kartana when teambuilding is indicative of its influence. I'm not saying that Psychic shouldn't need to keep Kartana in mind when it's building, that's how threats work, but any type that doesn't naturally resist both of its STAB types needs to consciously build around it. Obviously Kartana is not on the same level as Mega Sableye, but I still think it's unnaturally restricting teambuilding.

---
scp edit: well... instead of picking the parts that needed to be deleted, I just removed the last half of this and deleted the follow up posts. If we're going to discuss replays, let's discuss the actual replay and the plays made, not the people/extenuating "stuff".

Gotta chime in and agree with Eien here, on this controversial Megagross/Kartana offensive core.
After reading about all the fuss, I wanted to see how broken the three together actually are, and the results are pretty telling. I put together a team in literally a minute and within a few hours I achieved 1500 with a 30-1 W/L record.

For anyone interested in the team, it's here:

Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Hammer Arm
- Ice Punch

Magearna-Original @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Aura Sphere
- Thunderbolt
- Shift Gear

Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Smart Strike
- Leaf Blade
- Night Slash
- Sacred Sword

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Whirlwind

Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 48 HP / 208 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Toxic
- Rapid Spin

Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 48 HP / 208 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Lava Plume
- Earth Power
- Stone Edge
- Toxic

(N.B. It's not even a well built team honestly. The Heatran and Drill EV's make no sense really, and neither do their movepools. Goes to show how scary the offensive core is)

I've come to the conclusion that while Kartana wrecks through ground, ghost, and psychic matchups, it is Megagross that really overpowers Steel. I'm not saying this because Metagross singlehandedly takes on certain type matchups; rather, I believe that it's bulk and typing is what allows Magearna and Kartana to feel so broken. You can take on scarfers and fighting attacks due to the bulk while relying on Kartana to wipe out/revenge anything that actuall threatens Meta. If you take away Metagross, Kartana suddenly has a lot less options to tank hits, and steel will not have the insane offensive pressure it currently enjoys.

 

[Wish9]

Going off the topic of the broken Mega Gross + Kartana core, I want to see everyone's opinions on this.

Y all da hate? (Kommo-o) @ Life Orb
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 28 Def / 252 SpA / 228 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Autotomize
- Clanging Scales
- Focus Blast
- Flamethrower


As soon as I even mention this thing in chat, everyone immediately bashes it and calls it a shitty pokemon which I don't get. Yes, it doesn't have the best movepool (it's best physical fighting STAB is Sky Uppercut for crying out loud xD) but it gets what it needs to succeed. It's typing is great for Fighting Monos due to the resistances it gets, has 125 Defense and 105 Special Defense, above average mixed offensive stats, Heracross speed tier, and Clanging Scales which allows Kommo-o to set up Automize and clean teams late game. You could also run a DD set if you want but I'd only recommend it if you're using a Fighting Mono since Dragon Monos have several other DD Dancers *cough* Dragonite *cough* while the only other Fighting type that gets DD is Scrafty.


What do you guys think? It has problems with Fairies but eh, anything that isn't Cobalion struggles against them.


EDIT:
Use Dragonite (Kommo-o) @ Life Orb
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Rock Slide
- Poison Jab / Earthquake

 

[its.huey]

Going off the topic of the broken Mega Gross + Kartana core, I want to see everyone's opinions on this.

Y all da hate? (Kommo-o) @ Life Orb
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 28 Def / 252 SpA / 228 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Autotomize
- Clanging Scales
- Focus Blast
- Flamethrower


As soon as I even mention this thing in chat, everyone immediately bashes it and calls it a shitty pokemon which I don't get. Yes, it doesn't have the best movepool (it's best physical fighting STAB is Sky Uppercut for crying out loud xD) but it gets what it needs to succeed. It's typing is great for Fighting Monos due to the resistances it gets, has 125 Defense and 105 Special Defense, above average mixed offensive stats, Heracross speed tier, and Clanging Scales which allows Kommo-o to set up Automize and clean teams late game. You could also run a DD set if you want but I'd only recommend it if you're using a Fighting Mono since Dragon Monos have several other DD Dancers *cough* Dragonite *cough* while the only other Fighting type that gets DD is Scrafty.


What do you guys think? It has problems with Fairies but eh, anything that isn't Cobalion struggles against them.

Although Kommo-o is on the slightly slower scale, I've found it to be a godsend in Fighting for another option to beat Mega Venusuar (thanks to Bulletproof). Flexibility to go DD-physical or special is also really nice for luring defensive walls like Lando-T or Slowbro.

Using Wish's EVs,
252+ SpA Life Orb Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-Therian: 255-302 (66.9 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 251-296 (63.7 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[ScenesLord1]

Been away from mono for a while but came back last week thinking it would take a while to adjust to the new meta and many new alts, however i made a steel team and went 43-1 on an alt called Soa Gen 7. I believe that mega metagross, even though i love abusing it, needs to go. Kartana and Celesteela are also very very good. I'd suggest quick banning mega Metagross as its stupidly broken. Kartana is an iffy one though as if its banned, other potentially broken mons will rise in usage, for example mega slowbro.

imo for now, mega meta should be banned and then if steel is still broken. Kartana has to be suspected. Scenes.

 

[Tyke]

would you like to elaborate on how.. say poison! is able top prep for megagross?

One of my teams runs Payapa Berry Nidoqueen and uses Salazzle when I'd much rather run Gengar. A full health Muk-Alola can also check and chip Mega-Gross with Knock off/Pursuit, although this is ridiculously unreliable. I'm sure other Poison players have their own tools, like scarf Gengar or scarf Nidoking.

I'd say Poison has to jump through a lot of hoops to deal with Mega-gross and that it hurts it's overall viability.

EDIT: I see Arash already replied with much more commentary, and even mentioned my "meme" set. Payapa Nidoqueen was the least disruptive to my overall team comp, but I think Poison teams in general are forced to run specific sets to reliably deal with Mega-Gross. I'd agree with Arash's assessment that Poison either runs one of these sets or is forced to burn 2-3 pokemon to deal with it against a competent player.

Not healthy for the metagame

 

[MZ]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-494752104
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-495937179
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-499174981
first 3 replays I found going through the welcome to sun and moon where steel beats ground, some is defo celesteela but still gross

so then I made a steel team of the first 6 mons that seemed about right and started fighting people and this is what happened. i dont know most of them and not all of the games necessarily show off the mons, but some of them do and there's definitely the point as a whole of wow steel is a little dumb. I hope this helps.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-499209394 kartana is dumb even when u are bad
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-499212432 happening to pull out ideal metagross coverage cost him the game
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-499407574 kartana is really dumb even when u get flinched
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-499506670 flying matchup is kinda aids with meta although I dont think it'll ever be that advantageous vs steel
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-499573823 kartana is still dumb
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-499621164 L for steel but i think it illustrates that, while u can argue about how on paper types like dark can check these mons, it really does come down to having the faster, stronger offensive pressure with an issue for the type like specs ash ninja because steel will break u down (actually p much every loss was to ash ninja aside from hax because it's the best mon for outspeeding and hitting everything steel runs and the only real thing water has to stop kartana)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-499768888 In the interest of being fair, here's the one matchup these mons aren't that good-steel vs steel. Both are heavily annoyed by mega sciz and generally not too strong versus their own type. SD kartana has some power in the mu, but overall I think this might be the most useless matchup for the pair
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-499783117 also u just win vs rock. i dont think rock would ever have a good steel matchup regardless, but i imagine it'd be easier to pack some counterplay like HP fire probopass
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-499807034 not the best replay but helmet pelipper+kingdra+golisopod water can still lose to kartana easily because balanced

Overall I wish I could've gotten more variety but I wanted to get this out today and frankly I'm seeing very little aside from bug/psych/steel/dark/water, everything else might be decent but just generally suffers in this meta and the types I got replays for other than rock really are the ones that fare best against steel, however bad the replays look. Kartana can blow through certain types but isn't too useful versus others, metagross can destroy pretty much anything with the support steel can give but needs to be running the right coverage moves, and between the two solid types like normal, maybe elec and fire now, poison, etc have a lot more drawbacks. The drawbacks of Kartana not beating everything and Meta maybe being checked by things without the right coverage are why people have kept on discussing them, and it is fair to say that they arent quite as stupid as some other stuff. However, I dont think either of these conditions come close to taking away from how strong the pair are, maybe I get the idea that meta wouldn't be as broken without kartana now but overall I'd still be far more in favor of a ban for both.

One other thing that also stuck out to me is just how strong ash greninja is, I knew I'd been copping some free wins in the week before it caught on but it has a lot of things going for it right now. 60 BP STAB priority, specs hydro from 153 special attack and some of the best coverage in the game to blow away any resist as long as you can win a single 50/50 is pretty impressive, and types like steel that dont even get a 50/50 are immediately pressured thanks to very little naturally outspeeding it. I'm certainly not saying we should jump right into another suspect/quickban/whatever, but it's definitely something to discuss and probably one of the best mons in the entire meta rn (as much as a mon can be great in the meta when it can be used on 2/18 archetypes max)

 

[Paleo]

I guess this is a Sunday thing now

The council has voted on its next set of quickbans:

Note: Greninja and Battle Bond Greninja-Ash are being tiered separately, like Aura Break Zygarde and Power Construct Zygarde

Kartana: 6/7 voted ban, 1 voted wait
Metagrossite: 2/7 voted ban, 5 voted wait
Zygarde 50%: 6/7 voted ban, 1 voted wait
Greninja: 7/7 voted wait
Battle Bond (Ash Greninja): 2/7 voted ban, 5 voted wait


As a result Kartana and Zygarde 50% are banned from monotype


The Immortal

 

[scpinion]

Here's my thoughts on this whole Kartana vs. Mega Metagross dilemma.

I still don't know which one is actually causing Steel to be so dominant (or if it is both of them). Also, I'm not completely sold that both are just wholesale broken, like Tapu Lele or Power Construct. However, it is obvious that something needs to change in order for this metagame to keep progressing towards something that resembles balanced.

Eien made a really good post earlier on how Kartana enables Megagross to be much more effective—if you missed it, check it out b/c it initiated a bunch of follow up posts that didn't have anything to do w/ Kartana and Meta. ): I'm not completely convinced it isn't the opposite (Megagross enables Kartana to be broken), but we have to start somewhere. For instance, we don't see Kartana ravaging people on Grass teams (or at least I haven't).

We get to test Megagross in a metagame without Kartana. If it is broken, then we can ban it.

In the event that happens, I'd fully support a community suspect where we retest Kartana and decide if it is ok in a Megagross-less metagame. Ultimately, we want to achieve a balanced metagame and I think this would enable us to test all possible avenues, which is the best way to ensure we get it right.

 

[Hammy]

What are peoples thoughts on Hoopa unbound. Imo this was probably the most controversial pokemon last gen and earned itself 2 suspects. From what I've seen so far the specs set continues to just dent opposing teams just like it did in oras and the mixed/lo/Band sets r still no joke. I'm very surprised this mon has yet to come up in this discussion what do you guys think?

 

[iLlama]

What are peoples thoughts on Hoopa unbound. Imo this was probably the most controversial pokemon last gen and earned itself 2 suspects. From what I've seen so far the specs set continues to just dent opposing teams just like it did in oras and the mixed/lo/Band sets r still no joke. I'm very surprised this mon has yet to come up in this discussion what do you guys think?

I think until the meta really settles in, Hoopa-U won't be able to match the presence it had in ORAS, mainly because of the current Speed tiers running around. With most of the quick-bans and other mons showing up on the slates, I'd say it's only getting more dangerous with each fast threat that's receiving a ban.

Regarding the new slate, I'm happy to see that Greninja and Ash-Greninja are being discussed as separate issues now, much like how Power Construct was handled. I do think with more monotype threats being quick-banned, both Protean and Battle Bond Greninja will become much more powerful than they already are. With that said, I do think that the meta will be able to adapt to Protean better than last gen, although if it's to the extent of it being manageable for most types, I'm not too sure yet. Even if it can still bring a lot of unpredictability with its sets, I don't see it as something that can really dictate the metagame yet, unlike many of the other slated Pokemon. Battle Bond, however, is another story. At a glance, BB Greninja just seems like an incredibly solid Pokemon, but realistically its stats of 145/153/132 are nothing to scoff at. Even though Greninja needs to get a KO before getting its Ash form, it's not necessarily difficult to manage this as long as you can work around getting revenge KOs or baiting favorable switches. Also, with the buffs it received in Generation 7 through Water Shuriken and Prankster's nerf, outspeeding it and/or controlling its speed isn't as practical of an option for some types. Another factor to note is that Ash-Greninja doesn't really need to be unpredictable since it's output with Life Orb and Choice Specs sets are potent enough to maintain a noticeably powerful presence. All in all, Ash-Greninja is definitely a Pokemon to look out for in the coming weeks.

On another note, I don't quite understand why Zygarde 10% and 50% are both banned, rather than Thousand Arrows, which has been noted in many posts to be why both of these forms were 'broken.' I'm not sure who mentioned it before (possibly Paleo), but I don't see the problem in banning Thousand Arrows much like how PU banned Chatter. It's a pretty reasonable solution to a move that Monotype obviously can't handle effectively and doesn't leave two Pokemon banned that really can't even be classified as 'broken' without access to said move. Plus, if we're going to be trying to figure out what Pokemon are/aren't overpowered on Steel by testing metas without a given one, I would think it'd be understandable to test a meta with Zygarde 10% and 50% without Thousand Arrows at their disposal.

Running off of how Steel is being handled, I think examining a meta without Kartana and then without Mega Metagross is the best way to handle this issue and most likely the least controversial. Though, I could see both getting the boot in the end.

 

[scpinion]

We didn't ban Thousand Arrows for the same reasons we never considered banning Kings Shield on Aegi or Dark Void on Darkrai—we tier Pokemon, not Moves (in general).

PU banning Chatter isn't a good precedent and it shouldn't have happened, but it slipped through the cracks.

 

[readyletsgo]

Why is it precedent to ban an ability (battle bond) but not a move (thousand arrows)?

 

[scpinion]

Why is it precedent to ban an ability (battle bond) but not a move (thousand arrows)?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ehensive-stats-counting-policy.3580299/page-5
starts at ~ post #115

 

[ArkenCiel]

Why is it precedent to ban an ability (battle bond) but not a move (thousand arrows)?

Just think of it as Ash-Greninja rather than Battle Bond. Also B-Bond only belongs to one Pokemon for now.

Running off of how Steel is being handled, I think examining a meta without Kartana and then without Mega Metagross is the best way to handle this issue and most likely the least controversial. Though, I could see both getting the boot in the end.

I would have said it was the other way around since I think MegaGross is great on both Steel and Psychic whereas Grass' presence with Kartana isn't very domineering. I see MGross making two great types even greater by itself while Kartana only exacerbates Steel and just makes Grass better than ehh. For those reasons is why I think it would have made sense to ban MGross first, but yeah, in the end, the result should be the same.

 

[Wanka]

I think until the meta really settles in, Hoopa-U won't be able to match the presence it had in ORAS, mainly because of the current Speed tiers running around. With most of the quick-bans and other mons showing up on the slates, I'd say it's only getting more dangerous with each fast threat that's receiving a ban.

Regarding the new slate, I'm happy to see that Greninja and Ash-Greninja are being discussed as separate issues now, much like how Power Construct was handled. I do think with more monotype threats being quick-banned, both Protean and Battle Bond Greninja will become much more powerful than they already are. With that said, I do think that the meta will be able to adapt to Protean better than last gen, although if it's to the extent of it being manageable for most types, I'm not too sure yet. Even if it can still bring a lot of unpredictability with its sets, I don't see it as something that can really dictate the metagame yet, unlike many of the other slated Pokemon. Battle Bond, however, is another story. At a glance, BB Greninja just seems like an incredibly solid Pokemon, but realistically its stats of 145/153/132 are nothing to scoff at. Even though Greninja needs to get a KO before getting its Ash form, it's not necessarily difficult to manage this as long as you can work around getting revenge KOs or baiting favorable switches. Also, with the buffs it received in Generation 7 through Water Shuriken and Prankster's nerf, outspeeding it and/or controlling its speed isn't as practical of an option for some types. Another factor to note is that Ash-Greninja doesn't really need to be unpredictable since it's output with Life Orb and Choice Specs sets are potent enough to maintain a noticeably powerful presence. All in all, Ash-Greninja is definitely a Pokemon to look out for in the coming weeks.

On another note, I don't quite understand why Zygarde 10% and 50% are both banned, rather than Thousand Arrows, which has been noted in many posts to be why both of these forms were 'broken.' I'm not sure who mentioned it before (possibly Paleo), but I don't see the problem in banning Thousand Arrows much like how PU banned Chatter. It's a pretty reasonable solution to a move that Monotype obviously can't handle effectively and doesn't leave two Pokemon banned that really can't even be classified as 'broken' without access to said move. Plus, if we're going to be trying to figure out what Pokemon are/aren't overpowered on Steel by testing metas without a given one, I would think it'd be understandable to test a meta with Zygarde 10% and 50% without Thousand Arrows at their disposal.

Running off of how Steel is being handled, I think examining a meta without Kartana and then without Mega Metagross is the best way to handle this issue and most likely the least controversial. Though, I could see both getting the boot in the end.

To piggy bank off of what scp said, chatter slipped through the cracks because PU was really small at the time and is viewed as a mistake currently. To further prove that there is a precedent against banning moves, PU tried to ban dynamic punch not that long ago and it ended up being upheld. In that scenario, the idea was that D punch was gay as fuck and machoke could have been an A or S rank mon still without the move so why ban machoke. In that specific case, machoke would have still been a good mon and it still ended up getting banned. In our case, both zygarde forms would be shit on a stick and we would just have 2 d rank mons just sitting there rotting in the meta for no real reason. It's just way easier to ban the mon and keep the meta cleaner rather than banning the move.

That's just me using the situation PU went through to formulate an idea why things like that are the way they are.

 

[readyletsgo]

I don't know, it makes sense but then again it doesn't. When you start a battle, there is a huge list of clauses that appear, including banned moves (Evasion moves, swagger etc).

 

[MZ]

Hi I wasn't council at the time but I pushed for a chatter ban and it's very annoying to consistently see it called a mistake that only happened because nobody cared. While that's partially true that nobody cared, I would ban chatter all over again and I would not be in favor of banning thousand arrows. Chatter was different because it was completely uncompetitive on its one user. Thousand arrows is a good move but there's nothing inherently uncompetitive about it, chatter's 100% confuse rate literally turned games into spam sub until they hit themselves and you can go see replays of spdef carbink still losing to chatot because nothing could reliably take it on. Machoke was a different case simply because dpunch has a wide distribution on shit it isn't uncompetitive on and has nothing to do with chatter ban being a poor precedent. With thousand arrows in mind you know exactly what can and cannot beat zygarde, and the list of what can was deemed too small to keep it in the meta.
If you're in favor of banning thousand arrows please stop using this as some sort of precedent, but people against please stop using that argument

 

[Mr. Miner]

I don't know, it makes sense but then again it doesn't. When you start a battle, there is a huge list of clauses that appear, including banned moves (Evasion moves, swagger etc).

Evasion and Swagger are different tho, they were completely uncompetive and made the match extremely rng reliant in a game that relies on rng in some situations already.